INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vina »

the Arihant like most other subs is single hull
Source ? That said, all of India's exp in building subs (HDW, Scorpene) are single hull boats, while the Russian types we operate including the Kilos are double hull.

Yeah, single hulls are more efficient. There are other advantages to double hulls like greater battle damage tolerance and more interior space though.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

the double hulled types have a distinct fat look vs their length. even the kilo has a fatty torso vs its length. the Arihant pic does not look in that way...its father the delta class is a double hull design though...so who knows.

http://www.enemyforces.net/navy/949.jpg

some funde from web

Double hull boats have an external hull which forms the actually areodynamic shape of submarine, sometimes called a casing or ‘light hull.’ The outer hull can be made of made of steel thatis only 2 to 4 millimeters thick steel since the pressure on both sides of the casing is the same. The light hull can be used to mount equipment, which ifattached directly to the pressure hull could cause unnecessary stress, i.e. water leakages, especialyatdepth of when being depth charged.

The double hull approach also saves space inside the pressure hull, as the ring stiffeners and longitudinals can be located between the hulls. These measures help minimise the size of the pressure hull, which is much heavier than the light hull. Another advantage is when the submarine is damaged, the light hull can take some of the impact damage and does not compromise the boat’s integrity, as long as the pressure hull is intact.

The boats strength – required for deep diving – is provide not by the hydrodynamic outer shell but by the internal prssurised hull which is cylindrical.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Moreover,the advantage of a double hull is also enhanced quieting,when acoustic coatings are also applied to the insides oif the double hull.In addition to above points mentioned,apart from eqpt.,a lot of weaponry can also be fitted in the space between the two hulls,along with decoy dispensers,etc.A short fat hull is supposedly also advantageous when compared with a long thin one too,wake wise,leading to better quieting.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by chackojoseph »

Krusk was double hull.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by prashanth »

^^
Well, nothing can save a sub if a torpedo explodes inside it, double or single hull.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by JTull »

Singha wrote:I have heard the skhval would be n-tipped and be fired in general direction of a approaching torpedo, its goal being to destroy the torpedo / make the enemy sub cut guidance wire and run way from the shock wave.
I seriously doubt any sub will survive a submerged nuclear blast in its vicinity. How can a sub fire a 400kmph torpedo and then turn around and outrun a n-bomb shockwave?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by suryag »

How will the sub firing the n-warhead escape from the shockwaves ?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SaiK »

Is there an under water trophy kind of protection systems for subs?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Shkval to me seems to be the equivalent of a gunslinger's ability to get off a quick shot after being ambushed.It would be even more lethal if fired first,its speed leaves the enemy sub little capability of escape,unless the torpedo itself was destroyed by some hard-kill anti-torpedo device.Given its speed,etc.,it also betrays the sub's position,as it is not a stealth weapon,like the new long-endurance torpedoes ( a couple of hours+) that the French have devised,which can make innumerable return attacks even if seduced by decoys.One is sure that the Russians will by now have several advanced versions of Shkval,some of which perhaps,stealthily creep up upon the enemy at slow speed and then accelerate to full speed to destroy him.Since export versions of Shkval can be fired from std. tubes,
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

One question in my mind never resolved,is now understood based upon an old/updated reports which escaped me.Why did we build a single-hulled ATV when Russian subs are generally double-hulled and the ATV design was based/assisted by considerable Russian help? The answer is that the ATV's hull is made of "titanium steel" in one report,indicating it is either fully titanium,very costly and difficult to weld,or key parts/pressure hull ,made of titanium or of a titanium-steel alloy.Take your pick,but it indicates hull strengthening with a liberal usage of titanium.
By far the most important use of titanium is in making alloys. It is the element most commonly added to steel because it increases the strength and resistance to corrosion of steel. Titanium provides another desirable property to alloys: lightness. Its density is less than half that of steel, so a titanium-steel alloy weighs less than pure steel and is more durable and stronger.
The site also says that ATV-3,will be of a much larger design.

PS:As an aside,being X-posted in the Iran thread,here is this most informative assessment of the situ at this site and the Iranian possession of the Shkval:

http://rt.com/news/iran-military-power-conflict-565/
Iran Wars Episode 1: The gulf menace

The site alleges that the Iranians have reverse engineered the Shkval and their version is called "... the Hoot supercavitation torpedo, allegedly reverse engineered from the Russian VA-111 Shkval".This would be a most significant development,giving the Iranian subs a considerable quick-shot capability.In the narrow confined waters of the Gulf/Straits,escaping from aShkval shot would be extremely difficult.Depending upon the range/size also of the Iranian version,the Shkval/torpedoes could also be fired from warships or even from a land-based launcher,especially at the narrowest parts of the Straits,where even merchant shipping could be at severe risk. Small boats dropped hundreds of mines in the Iraq-Iran conflict where 500 ships were reportedly sunk due to mines.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SaiK »

Wondering about deep sub-surface low frequency usage for communications.. how much have we advanced and to what depths we can keep communications safe, secure, synchronized and alive?

Any other type of communication other than radio, like light based or sonic forms that can be better? we can't expect under the sea transponders for high bandwidth communications. This is one zone, where high speed communication is a big hurdle.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Saik,this is the "holy grail" for all subs,nuclear or non-nuclear,how to establis real time commns. between submerged subs and NHQ,especiallu SSBNs.Some develoments/breakthrough was reached some time ago with blue-green lasers,but little declassified info is available on the subject.Current methods are to send up a tethered commns. buoy at a discreet distance form the sub to make/receive traffic from a sat,LRMP aircraft,shore based facility,or even a UUV for the same purpose.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ramana »

Philip, Ti is alloyed with AL and vandium to provide a high strength non-ferrous material call Ti-6Al-4V. Its uniqueness is high fracture toughness i.e. cracks don't propogate in it. Good for pressure vessels under external pressure.

Ti is used as trace alloy in steel to reduce the grain size and to spherodize the impurities instead of regualr crystalline form. This reduces the chances of cracks along the grain boundaries. This type of steel is called HSLA steel:High Strength Low Alloy steel.

I think its a HSLA with Ti as a constituent that is used.

I have not seen Ti-Steel alloy.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Tx Ramanna.I was wondering what this "titanium steel " was all about.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by narmad »

Is the Navy's newest sub worth the price?
OPINION » OP-ED
PRAVIN SAWHNEY
VIJAY SHANKAR

Not much of a sea-based deterrent, says Pravin Sawhney; Chakra is the filler of strategic space says Vijay Shankar

The rules of engagement spelt out that INS Chakra would not be used in war. The hidden part of the deal was that Soviets would help India in its indigenous Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV), both materially and intellectually. While the promised assistance to the ATV programme which culminated in the launch of 80MW nuclear reactor S-2 vessel (to be called INS Arihant on commissioning) by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on 26 July 2009 came in fits and starts, the technology of the 6,000 tonne vessel is between first and second generation vintage. By comparison, the U.S. has ninth generation nuclear-powered subs which do not require refuelling throughout their lifetime.
While S-2 vessel began sea-trials in January (could last 12 to 18 months), India has planned follow-on S-3 and S-4 vessels based on the S-2 design. As all three vessels have similar hull and nuclear power plant, capability enhancements will be meagre. It is only when the S-5 vessel with a new design and a powerful nuclear reactor is launched, which could be two-decades away, can India hope to have a semblance of sea-based deterrence against China
Against this backdrop, a retired chief of naval staff had told me that the coming of Akula four years late, when the S-2 vessel is already undergoing sea-trials, serves little purpose.
While still in office, he had written to the government to review the leasing of Akula programme. According to him, there is a case to dispense with the S-3 and S-4 vessels which will consume enormous time and finances. India, after all, is still on the technology understanding curve and not ready for production. Therefore it should leap-frog to work on S-5 vessels which would entail imagination and initiative.
What is this guy smoking !!!


(Vice Admiral (Retd.) Vijay Shankar PVSM, AVSM is the former Commander-in-Chief of the Andaman & Nicobar Command, Commander-in-Chief of the Strategic Forces Command and Flag Officer Commanding Western Fleet. Email: [email protected]) Has this to write
As far as the economics of the matter is concerned, $920 million for a 10-year lease with certain support features attached must be viewed in perspective of what the SSN represents and the fact that a new SSN of similar capability with a 30-year life would have a price tag of about $3billion and a through life cost of (thumb rule) $9 billion would suggest that the deal is a sound one.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

people always want a promotion from nursery into class10 HSLC certificate ceremony..without the toil of 10 years in between.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Cain Marko »

^ Re. Sawhney's article - dunno what to make of it. Can't believe the IN would not want to get the Akula even at a rather late hour considering its depleting numbers and would rather rely so heavily on the Arihant, which is its first such venture. Especially considering that the two carry out entirely different roles.

Dunno what CNS he is refering to, but iirc, A Prakash (or was it S Mehta?) had made certain statements - complaints against Roos (during the Gorky price hike saga) and expression of confidence in Arihant. But then, there seemed to be a distinct move away from Roos during his tenure complemented by a tilt towards Uncle Sam.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Will »

Oh well... take such articles for what they are.. toilet paper. Which moron can argue that an Akula-II(or improved AKula I) prowling in protection of an Indian CBG is not worth the dollar's paid.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ramana »

9th generation sub powered by unobtanium. The guy should go back to his hafim den.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Austin »

ramana , he probably means the 9th Gen Naval Reactor S9G that powers Virginia class SSN .... needs no refuelling in its entire life of operation of ~ 30 years.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ramana »

Sure.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Badar »

Will wrote:Oh well... take such articles for what they are.. toilet paper. Which moron can argue that an Akula-II(or improved AKula I) prowling in protection of an Indian CBG is not worth the dollar's paid.
Will, I doubt the Nerpa is a weapon of war in the Indian Navy. "The rules of engagement spelt out that INS Chakra would not be used in war". As to what will be the dynamic between nuclear subs and the bird farms in the Indian Navy is still up in the air. Who will protect whom?

The Akula will have its utility. We will have a baseline on which to build operational experience and compare and contrast the arihants performance. Building up and training of support infrastructure with a stable design will ease the larger teething trouble for IN as it gears up to support nuclear ships. A billion in this context is quite cheap. .

The point of not building S-3 or S-4 has merit. Why build more of the same series when we know beforehand that they will be inadequate? Arihants could be allowed to operate for a while, its designs validated operationally, data collected and digested before we embark on the Ariahant-II. On the other hand what would happen to the skilled workers, managers, quality control workers, nuclear construction technicians etc between builds? Will these men and training be allowed to dissipate again? Surely it cheaper to churn out low utility subs than to remake this whole workforce again from scratch? Better to just build more interim subs on slow burn than to start-stop.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vic »

An absurd piece contrasted by Note below

Not much of a sea-based deterrent, says Pravin Sawhney; Chakra is the filler of strategic space says Vijay Shankar

Not much of a sea-based deterrent

Just when the Russian nuclear-powered Akula-II submarine joins the Indian Navy as INS Chakra on a 10-year lease at a cost of over $one billion, the moot question is: does it contribute to India's sea-based nuclear deterrence?

The hidden part of the deal was that Soviets would help India in its indigenous Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV), both materially and intellectually.

So whats wrong?

While the promised assistance to the ATV programme which culminated in the launch of 80MW nuclear reactor S-2 vessel (to be called INS Arihant on commissioning) by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on 26 July 2009 came in fits and starts, the technology of the 6,000 tonne vessel is between first and second generation vintage. By comparison, the U.S. has ninth generation nuclear-powered subs which do not require refuelling throughout their lifetime.

What is the basis of 2nd gen and 3rd gen conclusion? What do you know about reactors of India, Russia and US?

FOLLOW-ON VESSELS

The Russian Akula sub, given the same name, INS Chakra comes with similar purpose and rules of engagement. Like the earlier deal, the undisclosed understanding this time is that it is part of the Gorshkov package (INS Vikramaditya) and includes Russian help in the follow-on indigenous nuclear-powered vessels.

So whats wrong?


While S-2 vessel began sea-trials in January (could last 12 to 18 months), India has planned follow-on S-3 and S-4 vessels based on the S-2 design. As all three vessels have similar hull and nuclear power plant, capability enhancements will be meagre.


3 of same class, that the point, you moron!

It is only when the S-5 vessel with a new design and a powerful nuclear reactor is launched, which could be two-decades away, can India hope to have a semblance of sea-based deterrence against China.

So you know about S-5 as well as time line? how? mummy told you? So India should wait for 20 years and reject Akula as well as ATV series, is that your suggestion, idiotji?



The S-2 and the coming S-3 and S-4 vessels will lack adequate capabilities in three key areas of stealth, reactor design and missile range to become a deterrent ballistic missile armed nuclear-powered submarine (SSBN) against China, which with its Jin class subs is at least four decades ahead. India's S-2 vessel armed with 700km K-15 missile will have difficulty in even deterring Pakistan as, given its limitations, it would be required to be positioned closer to hostile shore.

So if its only SSN, is it useless?? Heard of Sea denial or Sea control??

Against this backdrop, a retired chief of naval staff had told me that the coming of Akula four years late, when the S-2 vessel is already undergoing sea-trials, serves little purpose. While still in office, he had written to the government to review the leasing of Akula programme.

So is S-2 better than Akula?

According to him, there is a case to dispense with the S-3 and S-4 vessels which will consume enormous time and finances. India, after all, is still on the technology understanding curve and not ready for production.

I dont believe this! period

Therefore it should leap-frog to work on S-5 vessels which would entail imagination and initiative. Given improved relations with the U.S. and France, why cannot India seek advanced reactor technology from them? Developing long range ballistic missile would have to be an indigenous effort as it comes under global restrictive regimes. Why cannot ISRO with capabilities to propel rockets up to 10,000km help DRDO make 8,000km ballistic missiles? These hard questions need to be examined to produce credible sea-based deterrence.

This is so absurd that belies belief, Uncle SAM helping indian nuke sub programme?????????

Now read this note and the credentials of the person

Chakra, the filler of strategic space


In real terms, it is critical to understand what the Chakra represents. Working the submarine to our operational challenges and demands is just the tip of the iceberg, training and building a bank of specialised personnel; creating the necessary infrastructure to maintain nuclear submarines; unique logistic management practices; development of doctrines and procedures; generating design feature for the indigenous programme and, most importantly, building an ethos of efficient and safe nuclear submarine stewardship and exertions, these are the 8/9th submerged part of the iceberg. Strategically SSNs in numbers provide a vital element of a riposte to any “sea control strategy” that an adversary may contemplate or a “denial strategy” that we may plan.

STATE OF ART

In terms of the platform, the Akula II represents the state of art in SSN design, the programme having been launched in the mid 1990s. The nearest in terms of design vintage is the British ‘Astute' class also of the mid 1990s,but in terms of capabilities it is smaller and less accomplished; while the American Los Angeles class predates the Chakra by a decade. Also, the design philosophy harmonises with the orientation of our strategic nuclear submarine project.

As any nation that has committed to operating maritime nuclear force will fully appreciate that kudos are due to our planners who visualised a theory, saw a form and translated it to a force plan and now have given substance to each step of the way.

(Vice Admiral (Retd.) Vijay Shankar PVSM, AVSM is the former Commander-in-Chief of the Andaman & Nicobar Command, Commander-in-Chief of the Strategic Forces Command and Flag Officer Commanding Western Fleet. Email: [email protected])
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Pravin Sawhney is best when parroting/photocpying details given to him ,which can be verified with official sources for accuracy.When he starts to think,it is generally outside the box,in fact so far outside the box,that he at times seems outside the room,even unto the building! "9th-gen" sub.One presumes he has been counting on his fingers the names of N-subs since the Nautilus and come to his conclusion.The Russians by the way consider their latest Severodovinsk SSGN as "4th-gen".In fact PS sounds positively jealous and resentful (like a good Paki) that the IN has at last got what it wanted,a powerful SSGN capable of dominating the seas in our vicinity and meeting any challenge from PLAN subs poking their nose into IOR waters.

PS has also confused the two issues,that of a strategic SSBN fleet and the parallel need for SSGNs/attack subs capable of destroying enemy task forces ,entering or preparing to enter the IOR .As far as the former is concerned,some of what he says makes sense,in that we skip "S-3" if it is the same size as the ATV-1 and 2,as we need a genuine SSBN larger in size than the ATV-1 series,with at least 12-16 silos capable of accomodating ICBMs "with MIRVs preferably) of a min. of 5000km range to look after China.The 700+KM range of the K-15 missiles does appear to be very inadequate,and appears to be deliberate disinformation.One can only speculate what the actual range is (at least 1000+km) if it has to operate in the IOR /Bay of Bengal with missiles capable of reaching all of China and Pak.

For a very long time,the IN has wanted a fleet of SSGNs to complement its planned 3-5 carrier task forces,While the Akula may not be able to carry N-tipped missiles according to treaty rules,it woukd be riiculous for India to sped so much money on the sub and training three sets of crews if the sub canot be used durng wartime! PS's equally absurd statement that we should've asked the US and France to proivide us with their N-sub tech is an April Fool's joke three months early! When the US demands such intensive conditions for conventional weapon systems like strike aircraft,and only Uncle Sam' closest ally Britain has received US ICBM tech and missiles thus far,the absurdity of his statement is apparent.In the case of France,it is only now that it has agreed to provide Brazil with N-tech to build a small attack sub and the cost would be several times that supplied to us by Russia.

Just compare the cost of a small conventional non-AIP Scorpene and the Akula lease for 10 years.Moreover,the Akula is streets ahead in capability and quieting when compred with the Chinese ubs.A year+ ago,I posted a graph showing official US quieting levels for N-subs globally,where the Akula-2 was equiv to late model Los Angeles classes,both far superior to anything that the PLAN has got.Reports that a lease for a second Ak-2/3 is being negotiated is very good news indeed.It wil allow L&T/HSL to concentrate wiht building our own N-subs to give larger teeth to our strategic deterrence.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by rohitvats »

Philip has summed up the "analyses" by PS accurately. He uses Force mag to vent his thoughts on people and just goes on and on w/o addressing the issue at hand. His arguments are so convulated and on a plane completely removed from reality. Mauka mila hai to kush bhi bol do....
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

The "F" mags interviews with chiefs,senior officers,professionals writing articles,etc. is interesting and valuable.Handouts containing manufacturers touting their wares too worthwhile for a general undertanding of weapon systems and their touted capabilities.It is when PS gives us his considered viewpoints that one has to read between the lines.The Hindu must be thanked for slyly doing a hatchet job on him,providing both his view of the Akula acquisition,(negative) and that of a former senior naval officer (positive) side by side! PS comes out looking like a yapping "Paki-nese"!
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by vic »

Shankar wrote: the hydraulic drag do not increase linearly with speed and so the increment in power output of a reactor by 100% will not increase the submerged speed of the submarine by 100% but by say 50 % as a rough approximation . So in Arihant if we have a 80MW reactor the maximum speed will be around 25 knots submerged with 190 MW it will be close to 40 knots .The speed is also a function of shape and more importantly the shape of sail which generates maximum hydraulic resistance .Smaller the sail faster the sub will be with same reactor power output assuming the transmission gear have same efficiency over the entire power band
I believe the ratio is ^4. Normally Russians relied on speed to outrun opposition while France relied on quietness/stealth. UK & USA had both
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Kersi D »

vic wrote:
Shankar wrote: the hydraulic drag do not increase linearly with speed and so the increment in power output of a reactor by 100% will not increase the submerged speed of the submarine by 100% but by say 50 % as a rough approximation . So in Arihant if we have a 80MW reactor the maximum speed will be around 25 knots submerged with 190 MW it will be close to 40 knots .The speed is also a function of shape and more importantly the shape of sail which generates maximum hydraulic resistance .Smaller the sail faster the sub will be with same reactor power output assuming the transmission gear have same efficiency over the entire power band
I believe the ratio is ^4. Normally Russians relied on speed to outrun opposition while France relied on quietness/stealth. UK & USA had both
If IN nuke sub leaves Mumbai at 40 kts, one Mr D I Kaskar might hear the sound in Dubai.

K
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Christopher Sidor »

Badar wrote:
Will wrote:Oh well... take such articles for what they are.. toilet paper. Which moron can argue that an Akula-II(or improved AKula I) prowling in protection of an Indian CBG is not worth the dollar's paid.
Will, I doubt the Nerpa is a weapon of war in the Indian Navy. "The rules of engagement spelt out that INS Chakra would not be used in war". As to what will be the dynamic between nuclear subs and the bird farms in the Indian Navy is still up in the air. Who will protect whom?

The Akula will have its utility. We will have a baseline on which to build operational experience and compare and contrast the arihants performance. Building up and training of support infrastructure with a stable design will ease the larger teething trouble for IN as it gears up to support nuclear ships. A billion in this context is quite cheap. .

The point of not building S-3 or S-4 has merit. Why build more of the same series when we know beforehand that they will be inadequate? Arihants could be allowed to operate for a while, its designs validated operationally, data collected and digested before we embark on the Ariahant-II. On the other hand what would happen to the skilled workers, managers, quality control workers, nuclear construction technicians etc between builds? Will these men and training be allowed to dissipate again? Surely it cheaper to churn out low utility subs than to remake this whole workforce again from scratch? Better to just build more interim subs on slow burn than to start-stop.
I agree with what you have said, regarding the utility of INS Chakra. If there are rules of engagement which forbid its usage during war times, then it is of limited value to us. On its ability to train our sailors and changes in doctrine, yes it does offer us the ability to leap frog. We need not wait for our own SSN/SSBN to be inducted for these.

On its price, of less than a billion USD, yes it was a steal. We would not get any SSN from any other state, including US or France.

But the criticism against INS Chakra is partly towards our ATV program. We need 3500+ km range SLBM and SLCM. I would argue for a 5000+ km range SLBM and SLCM. Secondly the utility of the sub is as good as its quietness. If the sub is not quiet then it is of no use. How far has INS Arihant achieved that is yet to be seen. Finally is the 84 MW Power plant of INS Arihant. We need to scale this up. The best way to achieve all these is by incremental steps. Not in one giant leap. Hence we need S-3 and S-4.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by koti »

Christopher Sidor wrote: I agree with what you have said, regarding the utility of INS Chakra. If there are rules of engagement which forbid its usage during war times, then it is of limited value to us. On its ability to train our sailors and changes in doctrine, yes it does offer us the ability to leap frog. We need not wait for our own SSN/SSBN to be inducted for these.
I do doubt that. We will be having the sub in our hands. We have(?) the required warheads and the required missiles. If it is in shape to be armed and deploy the missiles in peacetime that is enough of a deterrent already.

Its presence will force any enemy fleet to dedicate a considerable force check their background.
Not applicable to PN though.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Eric Leiderman »

The Power to speed ratio for surface vessels is based on an indice( raised to power 3.)
I am not sure if the same applies to a fully submerged vessel, (I am sure it will be different because of the surface wave effect which consumes a fair bit of the energy.) However It will not be a straight arithmatical function like a multiplication factor. So an increase fm 80 mW @ 25 kts submerged speed
to 160 mW with expected speed of 45-50 knots might be unreasonable. Just an obversation, I might be wrong and am open to a more detailed explanation.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by koti »

Eric Leiderman wrote:However It will not be a straight arithmatical function like a multiplication factor. So an increase fm 80 mW @ 25 kts submerged speedto 160 mW with expected speed of 45-50 knots might be unreasonable.
Yes. What a 160MW reactor can do is to propel a 16K ton sub instead of a 6k ton one at 25 kts.
And that allows for heavier and longer ranged missiles.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by geeth »

I am not sure if the same applies to a fully submerged vessel, (I am sure it will be different because of the surface wave effect which consumes a fair bit of the energy.) However It will not be a straight arithmatical function like a multiplication factor. So an increase fm 80 mW @ 25 kts submerged speed
What you said is generally true for submerged vessels and aircraft etc..i.e., the power vs speed curve is a cubic parabola. In the case of surface vessels, froud's number also comes into play (to cater for surface waves generated)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

PNS Ghazi was also on lease when it prepared to sink the Vikrant.If the Chakra is not to be used in wartime,then a good simulator would be far cheaper! Is it also coming with training torpedoes or what? IN which case it would be a good tourist attraction where we could recover a fraction of the the monthly maintenance costs!

It is a steal for the price.Just compare the Scorpene prices per sub,that too without AIP,and you immediately realise the value of the deal.The hard reality is that the IN finally has to grow up to meet the challenges of the Sino-Paki beast and will have to operate advanced subs like the Chakra and ATV which will increase in number year by year,posing huge challenges in manpower and technical expertise on land to keep the subs seaworthy and battleready.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Badar »

Christopher Sidor wrote:But the criticism against INS Chakra is partly towards our ATV program. We need 3500+ km range SLBM and SLCM. I would argue for a 5000+ km range SLBM and SLCM. Secondly the utility of the sub is as good as its quietness. If the sub is not quiet then it is of no use. How far has INS Arihant achieved that is yet to be seen. Finally is the 84 MW Power plant of INS Arihant. We need to scale this up. The best way to achieve all these is by incremental steps. Not in one giant leap. Hence we need S-3 and S-4.
I concur. Incremental is the way to go. But the argument is that you cannot make meaningful improvements without first gaining operational experience on the initial marks. If you are going to go to version two with out testing version one, then you might have as well gone to version two straight away (hence the jump to S-5).

The reality is that a reliable, trustable sea based nuclear deterrence is at least two decades away barring surprises. There is sufficient time to test the existing 700km rocket in the existing boat and then scale up the boat, powerplant and rocket to the required intercontinental range. By the time 6000km A-6 is ready, hopefully we will have a proven design, operational doctrine, national strategy, training, leadership, logistic infrastructure and deterrence protection assets provided by the Arihant and sons so as to ease the real deterrent into service. Ideally we should have missiles that can threaten Santiago from the pier side at the Varsha seabase.

It has to be accepted that even by the interminably slow Indian standards, all this is not going to happen anytime soon.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Avid »

By all indications INS Chakra agreement likely says -- no use wartime. However, I pose a simple question: during war time, if it comes to a point where we need to use it -- will it stop GoI from using that sub? Will they really care for the agreement at that time?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Badar »

Avid wrote:By all indications INS Chakra agreement likely says -- no use wartime. However, I pose a simple question: during war time, if it comes to a point where we need to use it -- will it stop GoI from using that sub? Will they really care for the agreement at that time?
This assumes that Russia is solely dependent upon Indian word for enforcing contractual terms. There may be technical means to enforce the agreement.

For instance, the simplest option will be to neuter the weapons control stations so that no warshots may be utilized (practice rounds only).
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

What if..,what if,the sub or the nation is attacked first? There could be a subtle clause that says that the sub must be able to defend itself if and when attacked or when the nation is at war,not having started the conflict.I don't think any leasor would want one of its leased Akulas to be a sitting duck in any spat that might be thrust upon India.In any case the terms of the lease have not been made public and one presumes never will.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by NRao »

Interesting, the hunter being hunted and under attack. Possible if it is a defenseless hunter.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by shiv »

Avid wrote:By all indications INS Chakra agreement likely says -- no use wartime. However, I pose a simple question: during war time, if it comes to a point where we need to use it -- will it stop GoI from using that sub? Will they really care for the agreement at that time?
A man left his beautiful newlywed wife with a bachelor friend and went off on a 10 year holiday after reaching an agreement that the wife would not be treated as a wife by the bachelor friend. I wonder what happened.
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