Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 14 Jun 2012 22:53

ramana wrote:RajeshA Take a look at this book

Life in Ancient Indus River Valley

The narrative on page 4 is what needs to be demolished.

Yeah,

they all love to post-date the Vedic Age!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54706
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 14 Jun 2012 22:55

Kanson, I don't know Tamil but could an early version of Tamil be PIE? Lets not go into scripts. Just the language.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_20317 » 15 Jun 2012 00:29

Can someone attest to the authenticity of this?


Book 7 Hymn 6, RV.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07006.htm

HYMN VI. Agni.
1. PRAISE of the Asura, high imperial Ruler, the Manly One in whom the folk shall triumph-
I laud his deeds who is as strong as Indra, and lauding celebrate the Fort-destroyer.
2 Sage, Sing, Food, Light,—they bring him from the mountain, the blessed Sovran of the earth and heaven.
I decorate with songs the mighty actions which Agni, Fort-destroyer, did aforetime.
3 The foolish, faithless, rudely-speaking niggards, without belief or sacrifice or worship,—
Far far sway hath Agni chased those Dasytis, and, in the cast, hath turned the godless westward.
4 Him who brought eastward, manliest with his prowess, the Maids rejoicing in the western darkness,
That Agni I extol, the Lord of riches, unyielding tamer of assailing foemen.
5 Him who brake down the walls with deadly weapons, and gave the Mornings to anoble Husband,
Young Agni, who with conquering strength subduing the tribes of Nahus made them bring their tribute.
6 In whose protection all men rest by nature, desiring to enjoy his gracious favour-
Agni Vaiśvānara in his Parents, bosom hath found the choicest seat in earth and heaven.
7 Vaiśvānara the God, at the sun's setting, hath taken to himself deep-hidden treasures:
Agni hath taken them from earth and heaven, from the sea under and the sea above us.


-Rig Veda, tr. by Ralph T.H. Griffith

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21166
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 15 Jun 2012 01:00

subduing the tribes of Nahus made

Is the the Noah of Yahoodis?

Agnimitra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5150
Joined: 21 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Agnimitra » 15 Jun 2012 01:22

ravi_g wrote:Can someone attest to the authenticity of this?
Book 7 Hymn 6, RV.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07006.htm
HYMN VI. Agni.
3 The foolish, faithless, rudely-speaking niggards, without belief or sacrifice or worship,—
Far far sway hath Agni chased those Dasytis, and, in the cast, hath turned the godless westward.
4 Him who brought eastward, manliest with his prowess, the Maids rejoicing in the western darkness,
That Agni I extol, the Lord of riches, unyielding tamer of assailing foemen.

-Rig Veda, tr. by Ralph T.H. Griffith

7.6.3 - ny akratUn grathino mRdhravAcaH paNIMr ashraddhAM avRdhAM ayajnAn |
pra-pra tAn dasyUMr agnir vivAya pUrvash cakArAparAM ayajyUn ||

7.6.4 - yo apAcIne tamasi madantIH prAcIsh cakAra nRtamaH shacIbhiH |
tam IshAnam vasvo agniM gRNIshe 'nAnataM damayantam pRtanyUn ||

member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 15 Jun 2012 04:11

Ramana garu's mention of Heisenberg led me to this, but would be OT so posting it in GDF
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5724&p=1296749#p1296749

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 05:44

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ not without a credible alternative narrative


Lalmohan, I think there are plenty of Indian language commentaries and interpretations of the Vedas, but we have "kept them to ourselves" - that is to say that they have not received attention/translation into English. This is partly because of the English vs non English divide in India that mad a huge economic difference to the English crowd and left the non English speakers in doodoo. What we are seeing today is a whole bunch of the privileged English speaking crowd of India (and that included many of us on BRF) suddenly realizing what has been discarded as we all joined the Macaulay economic bandwagon.

Indian culture is linked to Sanskrit and the entire tone of the Rig Veda changes when you look at it from an Indian cultural viewpoint. But that apart I suspect Sanskrit may not have been the only language to have developed rules for creating words from root meanings. I am guessing that ancient Greek too and other languages that were related to Vedic Sanskrit may all have sounded similar and had similar rules, lost over time.

Dating and the use of dates as a tool for theories seems to have been rampant. I am still looking for the logic behind dating the Rig Veda and I am unimpressed. It could still be dated a thousand years or more older and it would only affect certain pet theories that some "experts" have upheld. It is perfectly normal in archaeology to arrive at dates that vary by 2000 years in some instances. In the case of linguistics the error margins are high because of lack of archaeological correlation and there is complete freedom to adjust dates up or down to suit the changing tide of theories. The process of archaeological dating is not easy even when sophisticated dating methods are used, so if one sample is dated to say around 2000 BC in a site that is dated as as having layers extending from 5000 BC to 1000 BC, the take away lesson" that survives in lay literature is that it all dates back to 5000 BC and the real raw data remains in inaccessible specialist papers. If the latter have been fudged you won't know.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 06:27

ramana wrote:Kanson, I don't know Tamil but could an early version of Tamil be PIE? Lets not go into scripts. Just the language.


Ramana clearly more work is needed here.

For example I looked up the etymology of the word "to swallow" which is "deglution" in medical terminology that is from the word "glutire" to swallow The cooked up PIE word associated with that is "gwele" I am sure Manishji might be able to provide us with an ancienc Rig vedic word that sounds more like "gwele" than "nig". The Sanskrit word for swallow that I get from a Monier-Williams dictionary I have in front of me is "nigaran" similar to "nigalna" of Hindi. It also sounds similar to "nung" in Kannada and "ming" in Tamil/Telugu. If you ask me all are onomatopoeic words - that is to say the word mimics the sound of the action. Even glutire seems like an onomatopoeia but of different origin. Swallowing can be imitated as "gulp"/"glug" (open mouth swallowing) as well as "ng" or "mg" (swallowing with closed mouth)

The speciality of phonetics has moved very far in recent years and is swallowing up all linguistic studies. I am certain it has its uses but I am equally certain that it has serious pitfalls.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 06:54

Look at the etymology online explanation for "God"
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?all ... hmode=none
O.E. god "supreme being, deity; the Christian God; image of a god; godlike person," from P.Gmc. *guthan (cf. O.S., O.Fris., Du. god, O.H.G. got, Ger. Gott, O.N. guð, Goth. guþ), from PIE *ghut- "that which is invoked" (cf. O.C.S. zovo "to call," Skt. huta- "invoked," an epithet of Indra), from root *gheu(e)- "to call, invoke." But some trace it to PIE *ghu-to- "poured," from root *gheu- "to pour, pour a libation" (source of Gk. khein "to pour," also in the phrase khute gaia "poured earth," referring to a burial mound; see found (2)). "Given the Greek facts, the Germanic form may have referred in the first instance to the spirit immanent in a burial mound"


The root of the word God is not certain and two separate roots are given above. The Proto Indo European cooked up word along with Sanskrit root "huta-" are unconvincing to me although I am sure there will be some long winded phonetic connections made to the Rig Veda, Indra, Horse and chariot

God in Sanskrit (as per a dictionary in front of me right now in case someone mistakenly believes that I am not consulting a dictionary) has many synonyms including deva, which is connected with the origin of the word "deity", But God actually sounds like the word "Kadaval" in Tamil. With, god, khuda, deva and kadaval all being words for the same or similar concept - the push for a narrow "Indo-Euroepan" origin for a concept that may be much older may be misplaced. There are connections with languages that go beyond the parochial Indo-European obsession.

Dan Mazer
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 54
Joined: 03 Sep 2009 02:17

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dan Mazer » 15 Jun 2012 07:18

shiv wrote:God in Sanskrit (as per a dictionary in front of me right now in case someone mistakenly believes that I am not consulting a dictionary) has many synonyms including deva, which is connected with the origin of the word "deity", But God actually sounds like the word "Kadaval" in Tamil. With, god, khuda, deva and kadaval all being words for the same or similar concept - the push for a narrow "Indo-Euroepan" origin for a concept that may be much older may be misplaced. There are connections with languages that go beyond the parochial Indo-European obsession.

"Kadavul" in Tamil just comes from "Kada" meaning remain/stay and "Ull" meaning inside. So Kadavul is that which remains within (oneself obviously).

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 07:24

Dan Mazer wrote:
shiv wrote:God in Sanskrit (as per a dictionary in front of me right now in case someone mistakenly believes that I am not consulting a dictionary) has many synonyms including deva, which is connected with the origin of the word "deity", But God actually sounds like the word "Kadaval" in Tamil. With, god, khuda, deva and kadaval all being words for the same or similar concept - the push for a narrow "Indo-Euroepan" origin for a concept that may be much older may be misplaced. There are connections with languages that go beyond the parochial Indo-European obsession.

"Kadavul" in Tamil just comes from "Kada" meaning remain/stay and "Ull" meaning inside. So Kadavul is that which remains within (oneself obviously).


Sounds suspiciously similar to "khuda" (etymology unknown to me) and "swayambhu" - self existent (God) of Sanskrit.
Last edited by shiv on 15 Jun 2012 07:38, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 07:37

In Kannada and in Tamil I was fascinated by the words "kulur" (cold in Tamil" also "Jill" (cold in Tamil) and "chali" (kannada), "Sali" (common cold/mucus) in Tamil. They all sound so much like "cold" or "chill" in English.

The Angrez Etymology dictionary says:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?all ... hmode=none
O.E. cald (Anglian), ceald (W.Saxon) "cold, cool" (adj.), "coldness," from P.Gmc. *kaldaz (cf. O.Fris., O.S. kald, O.H.G., Ger. kalt, O.N. kaldr, Goth. kalds "cold"), possibly a pp. adjective of *kal-/*kol-, from PIE root *gel-/*gol- "cold" (cf. L. gelare "to freeze," gelu "frost," glacies “ice”).


The only Sanskrit words I was able to find are related to "sheeta' (as in sheetal). But the most ridiculous thing I found while looking at the online etymology dictionary was the word "freeze" which for a completely inexplicable reason includes the sanskrit root for "burnt" (prustah). wtf? Are these guys mad? Please don't give me that tripe telling me that very cold feels like very hot so cold=hot.

"Sali" for mucus/common cold in Tamil could well be linked to shleshma in Sanskrit and slime - schleim - in German. shleshma and phlegm both sound like onomatopoeias to me.

Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 15 Jun 2012 10:55

Mulligatawny = Milagu Tanni (Tamil)


Catamaran = kattoo Maram (Tamil)

Murugan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4191
Joined: 03 Oct 2002 11:31
Location: Smoking Piskobidis

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 15 Jun 2012 11:33

Ved Vyas (means - arranger of veds, vyas = arranger or may be indexer)

Like Indra, Ved Vyas might be a rank or designation

tyroneshoes
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 43
Joined: 19 Jul 2011 02:46

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby tyroneshoes » 15 Jun 2012 11:39

I posted this couple of pages ago, but will outline this again. We all pay attention to Cladwell and his deep seated prejudices creating Dravidian.
However, we cannot ignore other British scholars who disagreed with what he did....

Who was Charles E. Grover - that guy caused considerable kujli to Robert Cladwell in 1871:

The first principle is of vital importance in connection with a subject that has never been thoroughly examined the race to which the Dravidian nations belong Since the learned book by Dr Caldwell Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian languages was issued it has been taken for granted that the Tamils are a Turanian people The progress of philological enquiry and the new means of analysis furnished by the great German writers on language have shown the error of this classification Driven at a very early period into the extreme south and cut off by vast oceans from intercourse with other peoples the Dravidian nations have preserved with singular purity the vocabulary they brought with them and it is probably not extravagant or untrue to say that there is not one true Dravidian root common to the three great branches Tamil Telugu and Canarese that cannot be clearly shown to be Aryan As an interesting example both of the true character of the language and the linguistic progress made since the publication of Dr Caldwell's book it may be noted that the learned doctor gives an appendix containing a considerable number of Dravidian words which he asserts to be Scythian and most efficient witnesses to prove the Turanian origin of the language It is now known that every word in this list is distinctly Aryan although some of them have representatives in the Finnish group of Turanian tongues the group which has been most constantly exposed to Aryan influences The greater portion of them are included in Fick's Indogermanischen Grundsprachc as Aryan roots although Fick does not appear to have seen Caldwell's work."


Second that the true meaning of the word Pey or Pennu is not devil but light But Dr Caldwell asserts that the word is Sanscrit nor related to Sanscrit This is a error Before Caldwell wrote it had been noted that the Dravidian Pe or Pey is identical the root of the Sanscrit pi sacha meaning a devil malevolent being The words are interchangeable There is no reason to suppose that the Tamil word derived from Sanscrit or vice versa yet the roots identical But Sanscrit authorities ascribe to a root pis to adorn and this as given by Benfey has the parallel form pimsa from the root pirns shine This exact coincidence in both and Sanscrit forms proves their identity beyond doubt The Sanscrit forms just quoted belong to the great cluster of important roots has its centre in Bhd to shine Thus the Tamil and the Khond Pennu find their exact in the Greek phao and phaino from the root pha The same derivative appears in the gods Phanos Phaetkon


Reference:
The folk-songs of southern India
A comparative grammar of the Dravidian or South-Indian family of languages

tyroneshoes
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 43
Joined: 19 Jul 2011 02:46

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby tyroneshoes » 15 Jun 2012 12:08

Dravidian Languages vs Finno-Ugrian

Extreme Alternate views: Dravidian Origin for the word for Horse :shock:

Another fun paper: ON THE SUMERO-INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGE CONTACTS

Most modern Indians are Multilingual. If you had not paid attention to my posts :P

Subhash Kak's conclusion says it best: Indic Language Families and Indo-European

The archaeological ndings from India and the discovery of the astronomy
of the Vedic period are fatal for the constructions of historical
linguistics that arose in the 19th century and are still being
followed in schoolbooks in India although textbooks in theWest have
begun to present the new picture. While the general language categories
seem reasonable, the concept of overlapping families seems
essential to obtain better conceptual clarity. The Indic family is an
example of such overlapping families.
The breakdown of the old paradigm calls for considerable e ort
to create a new one to take its place. In particular, the emerging
chronological framework can be used to examine the relationships
between Sanskrit and other ancient Indo-European languages. Etymological
dictionaries should be revised to take note of the antiquity
of Vedic Sanskrit. If PIE did not exist, can we extrapolate from the
earliest layer of Vedic Sanskrit for correlations with life in prehistoric
Harappan India?


Disclaimer: I fundamentally disagree with trying to find similarity in languages across time and geography.
Especially because of fidelity and temporal effects that cannot be normalized effectively.
I do not subscribe to any of the links I post on Linguistics, especially Indo-European Linguistics.

Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8217
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Gus » 15 Jun 2012 12:37

Murugan wrote:Mulligatawny = Milagu Tanni (Tamil)


Catamaran = kattoo Maram (Tamil)


Saar, those are recent imports during colonial are (along with maangai - mango etc)

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jun 2012 13:27

I had read somewhere there was an effort to find a Proto-Dravido-Sanskrit language, and it already had a few words! Forgotten its name. I think it started with 'N'.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 13:45

RajeshA wrote:I had read somewhere there was an effort to find a Proto-Dravido-Sanskrit language, and it already had a few words! Forgotten its name. I think it started with 'N'.


There is a world language called "Nostratic"

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jun 2012 13:56

I think one linguistic strength of the whole Indo-European Language studies is that they have been able to create a divide between Sanskrit and South Indian or 'Dravidian' languages.

Thus they can accept some overlap between Indian and European languages, between Satem and Centum langauges, while they try to isolate Tamil, etc. from the Indo-European considerations.

If some Proto-Dravidian language is not simply seen as some substratum of Vedic Sanskrit, but as a predecessor or mother of Sanskrit, including that part which is claimed by PIE-artists as belonging to IE, then there will be considerable trouble. Then PIE will die.

So one way to win the debate between OIT and AIT would be to show that some Proto-Dravidian language is indeed the mother of Vedic Sanskrit.

Here are some theories on this matter from a gentleman named "F.S.Gandhi vandayar" who lived or still lives in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

Sounds interesting, however he sounds to be a fan of Max Muller. A cursory first look seems to show him as a Tamil Chauvinist who would like to prove that Harappans were Tamils and Tamil is the root of all languages.

All that is fine. I think Tamil Chauvinism can in this case be a very positive force. :wink:
Last edited by RajeshA on 15 Jun 2012 14:41, edited 2 times in total.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Sanku » 15 Jun 2012 14:02

Sigh... The issue of AIT needs to be disproved, is not of scholarship any longer. Tomes exist which are very credible. (That is not to say that continuing scholarship is not needed)

The issue now (as before) is of power, of what do people believe in because of current alignment with those in power having belief, and how power shapes beliefs.

What do we do about that?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 14:04

Here are some more Dravidian-Indo-Euroepan conundrums

In medical college i was surprised to find that nerve fibres to sense pain were called nociceptive fibres - from the root "nocere" meaning noxious. Now the word "nowu" means pain in Kannada. It is sometimes used for pain in Tamil. more often "nou" or "noi" is used to describe disease or illness in Tamil

The word "Katta" (tie) in Kattamaram (tied-wood) (Catamaran) is interesting. "Kattu" means "tie" in Kannada. Seems similar to "knot". Kannada also has "gantu" (knot) which is probably related to Sanskrit granthi for knot

It seems to me that the Aryan Invasion Theory focused researchers on making a Sanskrit-Europe connection and at that time it was important to create (cook up, like PIE) the defeated Dravidian who was pushed South by the Aryans of Europe who brought their lovely civilization to India. So the so called Dravidian languages may have been pushed to the periphery in this desperate scramble to carve out a European identity for Sanskrit. The hangover of that exists to this day.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 14:07

Problem of course is that a whole 3-4 generations of Indians after 1947 are thoroughly Macaulayised in thought, being blind admirers of west along with a deep rooted sense of inferiority of Indian-ness. A reversal of that is required before people can start thinking straight.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jun 2012 14:14

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote:I had read somewhere there was an effort to find a Proto-Dravido-Sanskrit language, and it already had a few words! Forgotten its name. I think it started with 'N'.


There is a world language called "Nostratic"

Thanks!

It could be this one, however looking at the graph, it seems Indo-European languages have more kinship with Uralic and Altaic family than Dravidian! :roll:

Image

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 14:29

People who are looking at Nostratic depend entirely upon reconstructed proto-words such as those of PIE and do not even take into account languages where that has not been done. That is what my Unkal Goggal tells me. I would ignore it.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jun 2012 14:39

shiv saar,

But we should make the connection between Classical Tamil and Vedic Sanskrit much stronger, strong enough to encompass even those words which are considered purely Indo-European. Though as you correctly pointed out Nostratic is not the way.

That would make PIE people eat humble pie!

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3019
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Kanson » 15 Jun 2012 16:07

venug wrote:Kanson ji,
Your story reminds me of another:
Legend has it that Agastya maha muni, wanted to study the Veda (only one at that time), so knowing that it is voluminous, he approaches Brahma and asks him to grant him 1000 years, so he grants. Agastya then proceeds and starts to study Veda, 1000 years pass, Brahma comes to him and asks about his progress, Agastya then says he has barely started and he needs 1000 more years...so this goes one for sometime, then finally Brahma says to Agastya showing distant mountain, if that is Veda, what you studied for so many thousands of years is this and takes a pinch pof sand and shows it. It is then Agastya muni observes "if I with thousands of years of longevity couldn't complete studying the Veda, what is to tell about mere mortals". it is then that 4 abridged versions of vedas in the current form took form.

Yes there is quite amount of hyperbole in the above anecdote, but one can just say or surmise that Vedas are pretty old.


Venug ji,
this is where we are losing the plot. These thousand years of longevity is not unique to Agastya or Indian narrative. Several Biblical/Western characters do have such longevity mentioned. Western science is conducting research to understand why and they found out that with passing time these characters age started shrinking from several thousand years to few thousand and further few hundred years to a hundred and we are the mutated remains of the original human. And they throw some theories.

The point I'm making is while we are conditioned to see anything that was not taught to us through 'modern' schooling as hyperbole, western/German/Chinese/Russians are not leaving anything to imagination and making a science out of it. Irony is that they take cue from our scriptures.

Take the example of Neem and Turmeric. Now what is the component of the so called Organic pesticide marketed by powerful companies? Nothing but Cow dung. This is what we were using for millennia, right?

So lets the narrative be Indian whether it is OIT or whatever and for every India phenomena there should be some study and we should be able to tell our new generation our own narrative and not some western/Chinese pseudo science.

hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4767
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby hanumadu » 15 Jun 2012 16:50

There is a lot of common vocabulary between Telugu and Sanskrit. From my limited knowledge of Sanskrit, it appears that the grammar for Telugu and Sanskrit is practically the same.

member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 15 Jun 2012 17:00

Kanson ji, I see your point. Instead of brushing offhandedly as hyperbole and fantastic, we have to consider the possibility of something more to the story, reading between the lines than take numbers and other descriptions at face value.

Like if one considers the example of Ramana ji provided of a ball weighing as much as an universe, if one doesn't take into consideration the gravitational theory, it might sound hyperbole. Yes a concept out of ignorance could seem impossible.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 17:31

RajeshA wrote:But we should make the connection between Classical Tamil and Vedic Sanskrit much stronger, strong enough to encompass even those words which are considered purely Indo-European. Though as you correctly pointed out Nostratic is not the way.

That would make PIE people eat humble pie!


It mmight just turn out that way.

Read this
http://india_resource.tripod.com/indian-languages.html
Hungarian Critics of the "Indo-European" Scheme
For instance, in Hungary, there is a growing body of scholars who are extremely uncomfortable and dissatisfied with the manner in which Hungarian was excluded from the Indo-European framework. Hungary's T. Majlath notes that "Critics of the Finno-Ugric theory argue that it became highly popular when the Hapsburgs sought to put the Hungarians in their place not long after the failed Hungarian War of Independence of 1848, when Linguistics had not as yet developed into the "exact" science it is today."

In recent decades, several Hungarian and other Eastern European scholars have attempted to build lexicons comparing Hungarian words with their Slavic counterparts. Unsurprisingly, these lexicons show that the distance between Hungarian and the Slavic langauges spoken by its closest neighbors in Europe is not as large as might be implied by the conscious and deliberate exclusion of Hungarian from the "Indo-European " schemata that includes all the Slavic languages but excludes Hungarian. Others have built lexicons comparing Hungarian with Sanskrit and Tamil (along the lines of the lexicons built by adherents of the "Indo-European" formula), and again, they show that a selective interpretation of these lexicons could well lead to a new classification in which both Tamil and Sanskrit would end up in the same family of languages as Hungarian.

Yet to Employ Computerized Statistical Analysis
As some modern linguists have argued, the inclusion or exclusion of a language in a particular family must be based on very precise and consistent criterion that should be backed up computerized statistical analysis. For instance, there are some Indian language scholars who have suggested that a computerized analysis of Sanskrit and Latin lexicons might yield a far more limited overlap than would be rationally implied by the "Indo-European" classification.

In fact, such analysis might reveal a greater overlap between North Indian and South Indian langauages as well as between Adivasi langauges and their neighboring Indic langauges that are presently placed under the "Indo-European" umbrella.

But to date, advocates of the Indo-European paradigm have strenuously resisted such calls for a fresh and unbiased scientific analysis of their classification methods. Nor have they been open to analyzing their conclusions in the context of geography, archaeology, anthropology, trade ties, cultural exchanges and regional political developments.

Few linguists ascribing to the Indo-European/Dravidian divide have bothered to investigate the extent of commonality between Sanskrit or Tamil or Munda and Hindi or Tibetan and Bengali. The possibilities of overlapping vocabularies or shared words between langauges that are currently placed in different linguistic streams has simply not interested many Western-influenced Indian linguists.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 17:33

.. and read this from the same link above
From the point of view of classifying languages based on the organizational principles that govern their written scripts no logic would permit the Sanskrit-derived North Indian langauges to be placed in the same language group as the European languages.

For instance, languages (such as Chinese or Japanese) that use pictograms, logograms and ideograms in their written form are a unique group of languages and are classified as "Semanto-phonetic". To understand the development of such languages using morphological and entymological constructs as described by Sanskrit linguists such as Yaska or Panini would be absurd.

Yet, Western scholars seem to have no difficulty in clubbing Sanskrit with English and French even though the manner in which Sanskrit developed and was formalized was entirely unknown and alien to the Europeans. On the other hand, structurally speaking (notwithstanding some differences), Sanskrit and Tamil are like sisters, yet many Westerners persist with placing them in entirely different language families.

Pan-Indic and Pan-Asian Commonalities
In their manner of organizing syllables and writing, all Sanskrit and Tamil derived Indian languages are similar which should place them all in a common Indic language group. Moreover, they share this organizational feature with the Ethiopic Ge-ez, Tibetan, Sinhala, Burmese, Thai, Khmer, earlier Lao, the pre-colonial Philipino Baybayin script for Tagalog, Balinese and Javanese. The Korean Hangul also shares certain commonalities. (Langauges like Arabic and Hebrew are partially syllabic in that consonants are precisely denoted but vowel sounds are usually omitted and implied by the context.)

This would suggest that in the pre-colonial world, there was a broad similarity in language scripts that extended across the Indian Ocean from Ethiopia to Indonesia and extended further to the Phillipines and Thailand.

Since the written form of any language represents it in its most advanced form, it is curious how Western linguists and their Indian apologists have strangely ignored this important facet in classifying the langauges of the world. Nor have they analyzed the important cultural and sociological implications of this shared heritage.


This link sums up the irritation I see in this brainless PIE quest which , like a pestilence, has infested all language links.
Last edited by shiv on 15 Jun 2012 17:43, edited 1 time in total.

member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 15 Jun 2012 17:35

Of all languages derived from Sanskrit, It appears Telugu is one of the few to retain most of the structure of Sanskrit, hence the 'feel' of chaste Telugu is similar to Sanskrit or may be we should say Samskritam?

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3019
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Kanson » 15 Jun 2012 17:38

ramana wrote:Kanson, I don't know Tamil but could an early version of Tamil be PIE? Lets not go into scripts. Just the language.


Sir ji, I don't have direct answer but I will try to give not a casual reply.

1.
There are many proponents who talk about antiquity of Tamil and goes to extreme as much as ageless Tamil. My belief is that if Tamil could be one of the oldest language, definitely it throws door for PIE discussion. And there are already people exhibiting such linkages.

To not muddle us in any controversies here is somewhat an acceptable version of one such proponent who talks about the Tamil antiquity, Valmiki and Tamil

Earlier in one such linguistic thread I linked this doc which describes Valmiki who wrote Ramanyana also as Tamil pandit and one of the poet in Tamil Classic literature. He then comes to one of the slokas in Valmiki Ramayana, which says on meeting Sita in Ashoka vana, Hanuman thinking if he speak Sanskrit, Sita may think him as Ravana in disguise so spoke Manusha Basha (language of the masses). Here the explanation is that Hanuman communicated in Tamil language. Pls see the blog it has elaborate explanation.

2. a. Tamil scholars make the point that it is the easiest language to learn much like learning Math or Science. Once you know few basic things other things can be derived. Already there is a link in this thread that states Sanskrit Grammar format may be derived from Tamil Grammar.

b. It is not only about Grammar and even words is easy to read remember recall and respell. We know there are root words in a launage. In Tamil every sound in tun every letter is a root word. For example Ka has a meaning and da & ul have their meanings. By combining Ka da ul (kadavul) I get the meaning of the word, God. Similary I can coin new words just by knowing the meaning of every sound in Tamil.

Without me going through the Tamil dictionary to understand and put some examples, here is the some explanation from this blog. This blog is full of such examples.

Tholkaappiyam says each word in Tamil has its own hidden original meaning, so I am in the process of finding the meaning of sounds/letters , I think I am little successful in decoding most and surprised to see the real hidden meaning behind some commonly used nouns in Tamil.

I will list out the Tamil letter sounds with their meaning and some example Tamil words. If you want to know the root meaning of some Tamil word, you can easily find out splitting the sounds and get its meaning using the list below, this is a partial list, more will be added.


Now Ka, its meaning and examples:
We will see some interesting words related to Tamil sounds Ka, Kal, Kar, Kai etc. all meaning “Get/Gain/Know-கிடைப்பது“, lets see some of the related words with meanings,

Kalvi: Leaning, [From which we get/gain(ka) about a place(l)]

Karuthu : Inner Meaning, the message.

Karai : Melt out

Kara: Extract.

What we get+Taking to கிடைப்பது + கொண்டு செல்வது

Kai, Karam: Hand - to take.

Karam=Ka+aram is doing the task of Take+Give which is the hand.



Various God names in Tamil and how it probably was derived.


Kadavul : Its one of the interesting word formed in Tamil, “Kadavul” the word refers to God, and this word sounds similar to the english word “God”.

Now we will split up the word KadavUL into its basic sounds to get the meaning.

Ka+da+vu+l literally means, Gains + moves + inside

The “Ka+da” here means “Gains + Moves”, so Kadavul literally is one who “Gains and pushes, could refer the one who guides.

Other explanation is Ka+da =”Gain + Move” means to “Cross or Overcome” and “Vul” is whatever existing.. so KadaVul = One who is above everything, one who had overcome the self or existence.

Lets see the other words for the different names of God.

Iraivan: Irai+van an interesting word, இ+றை(e+rai) (the sound “Rai” means “take to + within possession”

இறைவன் என்றால் “விட்டுவிடாமல் பிடித்து வைத்திருப்பவன்” அல்லது “விட்டுவிடாமல் கொண்டு சேர்ப்பவன்”

தெய்வம் : தெளிவு படுத்துபவை (Those which Explains/Announce/Guides to the goodness) Is another great word in Tamil and has a very deep meaning. It doesn’t mean a God or a person but it represents the nature’s actions and reactions that guides anyone. These are natural objects and events that favors anyone with some help, The Sanskrit word Deva is again means the same Tamil word Deivam, as the original concept of Deivam’s got forgotten in history and the various Deivam’s became personalities with unique traits shape and form.

MuruKan: is called Tamil Kadavul, this word “Murukan” often refered as Murugu,

Mu+Ru+Ku mean

Mu=Occupying a place inside +

Ru + That which is taken inside +

Ku/Ka=Gaining inside,

here Muru means “That which is trying to get inside or detract our minds” combined the word முருகு or முருகன் means “One who knows or Gains the distraction” or one who saves us from the distraction and enlighten us.

PerumAl: The hidden almighty.

Easan: Refers to Easwaran, “Eesan – Ee+San” literally means one who gives more or to multiple. ” Ee” is to give and “San” refers to group/United.

Sivan: is widely Worshipped God in India and Tamil Nadu, Sivan (Si+Van) in Tamil means “Destroyer of Evil/Bad” , “Si” means to “make disappear” or “to Make Small” and “Van” means Hardness, or refers to the Maleness.

Ayyanar: One who answers our problems or one who can guide us.

Aandavan: “Aand+Avan” means the first one who controlled/ruled everything (the 5 senses).

Ganesan: Kana+Easan in Tamil could mean one who “Watches and Gives” “Kanithu Koduppavan(கணித்து ஈபவன்)”

Kana in Kanavan(Husband/Savior/Guardian/One who watches), Kanakku(Calculating), Kanal etc all came from the Tamil word Kan(Eye).


This much pristine and primeval it can be. The point is Tamil cannot be a derived language from some other language. It should be one of the original language of this planet so one can definitely attest its antiquity and primes the ground for PIE discussion.

3a. Like the link in RajeshA so many people talks about connection of Tamil with European language. From the same blog which I like to quote here.

But this list is about those English words that sounds the same in Tamil and with similar meaning, these words originated in Tamil and could have ancient connections with some old Proto European language. Some words may be loan words from other languages.

Collar, Collum, Hals (neck related words) : Kaluthu (neck)

Know:Kan (Tamil word Kan means (Eye) (This should be the root of many IE words that starts with Kn/Gn) , Latin “Con“ also should be related with this word “Kan” (eye) in Tamil, primarily to mean “Gain within” for example words like “consider” “conceal”, “Conduct” are some of the con words. The word “Ken” is widely used in Old European languages “to Know”.

Aern/Rann : Aran (Aran in Tamil means safeguarding, Aranmanai is palace)

Pare : Pirai (Crescent moon, New moon) (Literally it should be “to show only a little” like a crescent moon.)

Daemon/Devil: Theemai,Theeyavai (Bad/Evil, that which destroys, from the word “Thee” which means “fire”)

Bleach : Vilakku (To clear off, Lighten, Lamp) Vilakkam is explanation ie. “To make one understand”, Latin words like fulgere, flamma, flagrare etc. also has the connection.

Pore/Furrow : Purai

Towel : Thuhil

Cup : Kuvalai

Oath : Othu -To read (loudly)

Eva-porate – Aavi (Steam) Inverse of “Aavi” is “Evaa”.

Inhale : Nukar

Nod : Nadungu

Curious : Kurippu (Giving hints, Giving Clue, Notes) Kurithu – Give attention to.

Cure : Kurai (To reduce, To lessen) “Kuru” means Narrow, Compact

Fast : Pasi (Hunger)

Flesh/Foul : Pulaal/Pulai

Wonder : Viyan, Viyappu

Sweat : Viyarthal

Gray/Grey : Kari (Black)

Harvest : Aruvadai(Aru(to cut) and V+adai(To stock in possession)

Gallows : Kalu (Wooden for impaling criminals, Ka+l+u(Gain+in a place+inside),

Kaluthai(Donkey) , Kalugu (eagle), Kaluthu(neck) all carry things.

Arable : Er (Plough)(The “E” is the long sound “Ae” referring to the inaccessible place it reach to.)

Finish : Pin(Behind)/Pini(everything lost/hardship)/Pinbu/Pinnaal(Time after/back)/Pinam(Corpse)

Bait : Pakadai

Gate : Kathavu

Fact/Factorial/Factory/ : Vakuthu/Vakunthu (means “to divide, To make(“Thittam Vakuthal”=To make a plan), To make it small)

Pacify/Peace/Pact/Pactum : Paku/Pakutthu/Pakuthi ( To split even between, To share, To allow access within), Padinthu/Padi means (To accept/agree with, to stay calm, To settle in bottom).

Accept: Isaipadu/Isaiputhal (To accept)

Female/Femina(Latin): Pen/Penmai

Function : Panbu/Pani

Annual/Annus : Aandu

Field/Villa/Ville : Vayal(means Farm)

From : Varum (means “comes to a place”)

Find: Pidi-பிடி (in Tamil it means to “Get hold of”)

Fog/Fumigare : Pukai

Fond : Punar (Copulate)

Mature: Muthir-முதிர் ( More older state, Well experienced (for a long time)) (Muthiyavar means old man) (“MootthOr” means elder)

Craft : Kalam-கலம் (Old word for “Ship”, “Plates” in Tamil) Literally “Ka=To gain + La=in a place + M=Occupying” so kalam is something thats “enclosed object to gain certain things/people”.

Burrow : Putru (புற்று, Snake, Rabit, Rat hole etc..)

Turban : Thalapaa (Head+ Cover) (“Thalai” in Tamil is head, The L changed to R)

Cluster : Kulai (Grouped as one, bunch/cluster)

Habit : Pahattu-பகட்டு (in Tamil Pahattu means “to act in a way“, “A posture“)

Cot : Kattil-கட்டில்

Goat : Kadaa (male goat)

Pain : Pini-பிணி (Under control using force, Inflicting hardship, Treating as slaves)

Punishment : Pani/Paninthu/Paninthal-பணி (Work/Under control/Working under kings order)

Tie/Teag/Taug/Knot: Kat, Kattu (Tieg) (inverse sound ) (Ka= Gain, Ta/Da = Movement)

Lion/Leo : Ari (Interestingly Ari or Aryeh is Hebrew word for Lion, and the L and R shift is common between many languages)

Bene~/Benefit : Payan-பயன்

Nation : Naadu-நாடு (Naadu means Native country in Tamil) (They say the word “nation” and “Native” comes from the Latin word “natus”)

Climate : Kilamai (Its a word that defines seven days of the week representing seven planetary bodies including Sun and Moon, also means “under its control”)

Hour : Kaala, Kaalai (“a time”, in Tamil) and the word “period” could be “Poludu”

Year : Gyaairu (Sun in Tamil)

Torque / Turn / Drehen(German) : Thiruhi, Thirukku (Thirumbu=Turn Back) etc…

Dream : ThOrram (Appearance, Look) The meaning is not the same.

dis-Turb -Thiritharu, Thiri, Thiribu (here Turb should be equal to Thi+ri which in Tamil means change or Losing its current state)

Funeral /Funus : Pinam-பிணம் (means Corpse in Tamil)

Water Lily : Alli (May be of the same family, not sure if both names refer the same flower)

Wealth : Valam-வளம்

Girl: Kilathi (Lead women, Rich Girl)

Guard/Garden : Kaadu-காடு (Forest, Field etc… literally Kaadu means “Gain + Hidden + Move + Inside” forests are well protected and not easy to move inside. In Tamil Kaathal means “To Protect”.

Pandal -Panthal

Friend/Favour/Free : Parinthu/Pattru/Parivu (Parivu word in Tamil means to show favour or affection)

Betel – VetElai

Action: Aakkam(To create/To prepare)

Level: Alavu

Teak – ThEkku-தேக்கு (refers to Teak, Literally ThEkku=Having with + difficult + Gain in)

Mad: Madamai (Mada = Moving mind, Not Stable Mind)

Mind/Math : Mathi(not sure)

Copra – Kopparai

Give/ Yield – Eekai

Sound: Osai

Surround: Chutru/Chutram

Ginger – Ingee (Ginger)

Rain : Neer(it means Water) But the word “Nero” in Greek means water. and in Etruscan “Nier” is water.

Drum : Murasu (Inverse of sound)

Nail : Aani

Lemon – Elumichai

Oral/Oration/Orate/Oracle : Urai-உரை ( Tamil it means To Speak, To give some news )

Villain: Villan(In Tamil it means “One who is with the Bow”)

Orange – NaarthanKaai (A fruit with smell) (Naatram in Tamil means smell) (“Naa” sound in Tamil means “We Get hidden” like in Naakku, Naai, Naatram, Naakku etc..)

God -Kadavul-கடவுள்

Cuff : Kaappu-காப்பு

Quest/Question : KEtpathu, KEl, KEtpa

Swear/Swor/An-Swer : Sol/Sor (சொற்)

Petal -Ithal

Cigarette/Cheroot – Churuttu -(Cigar made by rolling tobacco leaves).

Kill -Koll

Seer – Seer (to make things right) The words Juri, Justice also should also be from this origin, “Seer Thooku” means “To take things right”.

Birth - Piranthu [In Tamil "Pira" means Other one, new one]

Bird – Paravai [In tamil Para is to spread out] Pa+ra to “More + taking to” the action to fly.

Clay/Glue - Kali-களி (Ka=Gain + L+i= In a place +not to give out) It refers to the sticky nature )

Capture -Kaipatru, [In Tamil "Ka" means to Gain/know something, kai, Karam is Hand etc. Kar means Gaining . Words like Carry, Carrier too were close to Kar]

Irrigate : Iraithal (Neer Iraithal , Etram Iraithal is the age old method of irrigating land using well or pond water.)

Get/Take/Tacan/Tacken : Kadan (inverse sound) (Kadan in modern Tamil means “Loan” but literally it means “having something to be given back” and some places it means “duty to return some favor received”.

Bring/Brought: Peruka/Peruthal (பெறு)

Big/Broad : Peru (பெரு) /Parutha (I think the word “Veengu” could be more close to “Big”)

More : Mali மலிந்த

Touch: Thodu

One/Uni/Unite: Onru, Onri, Onnuthal etc… (in Tamil the sound “O” comes in words to mean “unite” )

Five:Ainthu

Eight: Ettu

Vision: Vili (To see) [In Tamil the sound "Vi" means "To come out, Visible etc..." words like Vidai, Vilai, Vili, Vidu,Viri ]

Voice : Vaai (“Vaai” refers to “mouth”)

Valve – Vaayil (Opening, Door)

Axle : Acchu + Ach+Chu = அ+ச்+சு = Join inside.

Age : Aayul

Easy/aisie: Eliya/ElithE

Roll/Round: Urul :Rotating or Round, Urulai means Sphere. Uru means shape.

River: Aaru/Aruvi (Other European words for river are Ryo, Rio…) in Tamil AA+ru means “Source unknown + Takes to here”

Rice – Arici (Ari means to “Take within” and si= After breaking/removing)

Reap:Aruppu (Aru means to “Take to inside” “pp” = Many)

Rich: Arasu(Arasu means kingdom in Tamil, The sound Ara= “the action of taking to” and “Su” = “Join inside” meant the “kingdom” the which distributes wealth)

Right: Uriyathu(correct) / Uttra

Rare : Ariya

Polish : Palinga (Smooth and Shining)

Hysteria : Pasalai (The sounds may not match exact, but the meaning are the same, refers to female hysteria)

Horse : Kuthirai/Pari

Taboo: Tappu / Thavaru (Meaning “Wrong” in Tamil)

Commander:KOmaan, The king, In Tamil “KO” sound means Control from a distant place.

Want: VEndu

Copra: Kopparai – means Coconut shell. (Ko, sound means “Gain as one”, in shape to accept something like a coconut half shell , here it refers to the shape that take things as one.)

Hard: Kari , Kadi (Kadi means difficult to move in Tamil) “Kari” means Sronger in Tamil.

Beauty: Pain(பைந் ) (in Tamil it often refers to something that is colorful).

Full : Mulu

Coir – Kayiru – Ropes.

Curry – Kari – Sause

Mango – Maangai

Join: Serntha

Crime: Kutram

Aim: Eei (In Tamil Eei means to shoot, To Take from distance)


Arm/Hand: Karam, Kai. (Ka+ra=Gains + Gives)

Leg: Kaal (Just inverse it) in Tamil “Kaa” means support.( in German, “Keule” is Leg)

Star: Chudar (meaning Shinning, Bright) – சுடர் , the sanskrit word NakSatra should also be from this origin.

Dad: Thanthai : (May sound odd, but many languages including European has Tata, Tadah etc… for father., in Tamil “Than+thai” means “Keeping within his possession”)

Parents: Petravar

Practice : Palaku/Palakkam

Brothel /Prostitute : Parathai (meaning Prostitute) “Para” means Spread and not restricted.

Aunt : Atthai

Antham : End (Antham means End, or near to the destination)

Flee/Fleece/Fly : Peeli (Feather Dress, Peacock feather used as dress or decoration)


and the list is endless and any linguistic who has an interest can check the blog.

3b. Here is malay words of tamil origin.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix: ... mil_origin

3c. This is from RajeshA link, the author talks about Tamil being North Indian tribal language. This is on the lines of the doc 'Valmiki and Tamil' where he concludes that Sanskrit is Deva basha and Tamil is manusha basha( that is language of the masses) and I quote the passages from the link for referrence.

In world history a significant breakthrough has been done by Mr.Maxmuller who identified ‘Indo – Europiean Group of languages’ in 19th century.

His strong belief is man movement in history can be identified through language analysis.

He has done, found out certain truth but ended with wrong conclusion. The thing is he has not analysed tamil / other Dravidian group / North Indian tribal languages.

Importantly north Indian tribal languages are nothing but tamil.

Whenever Indian history studies made Sanskrit is made forefront as if it exposes all Indian hereditary which is a wrong theory. It is 1800 years old unspoken language created only for Hothas / knowledge preservation purposes.

In this case we have to analyse which culture / language influenced this Sanskrit. That will bring you great light to the history.

Thevanayap pavanar started his career as English teacher went on reading English formation and at last he found tamil was the origin for all the languages in the world. He started the roots formation guided by Maxmuller / Galduwell.

My approach is based on that. Many books influenced this. I had an opportunity in my school days to study about various history books. If you want the listing it won’t complete the purpose.

All other Indian languages are phonetically transformed structure / dialects of tamil is real truth.

Knan paranchu / parayu (Malayalam) Na cheppinadu (telugu) which are Shrinkage of Naan parainthathu / Naan cheppiyathu.

Doorvaja Banthgae (Hindi) ‘Theruvasal poththunga’ (tamil)- ‘Kathava Moodunga’ (another dialect)

Doorvaja Kolagae (Hindi) ‘Theruvasal Thoranga’ (tamil) ‘ Kathava Thiranga’ (another dialect)

Yahang Aav (Hindi) ‘Engae Vaa’ (tamil)

Kithap patna(Hindi) 'Puththakam padi'

My purpose is to intiate this vision to masses. People will find out lot of things / truths behind it (including the language pandits.)


4. Very much in synch to this thread, people talk about spread of Indian/South Indian people to far off continents like South America.

a. http://archive.org/details/HinduAmerica

b.http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/a ... artak.html
In my book "Vastava Ramayan" I have shown the presence of culture in India as far back as 72000 years B.C. This recent news points to that ancient period. I am sure after some time Arecheaology may get evi- dence to show the presence of culture in India 72000 BC.

In Vastava Ramayan I have shown that Bali, the demon king went to south America during 17000 BC when the vernal equinox was at Moola Nakshatra. MLBD News letter Oct. 1988 gives a news thus :-"Dravidians in America" - According to a press report the Brazillian nuclear phy- sicist and researcher Arysio Nunes dos santos holds that the Dravi- dians of South India reached America much before Christopher Columbus.

Mr. Nunes dos Santos, of the' Federal University of Minas Gerais maintains that the Dravidians colonised a vast South American region 11000 years before the Europians reached the new world. Vestiges of the Dravidian presence in America, he says, include the strange phonetics of Gourani, Paraguay's national language. Moreover Bananas, Pine Apple, Cocunut and Cotton, all grown in India could have been taken to America by those navigators.


With all these information, there is definitely ground to believe and further explore the possibility of Tamil being a possible PIE/Proto-Asian language.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15995
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 15 Jun 2012 17:47

I had previously written

RajeshA wrote:The Europeans have tied one end of the rope around their torsos and the other end around ours through the linguistic similarities between European and Indic languages. Moreover both Europeans and Indics stand on small boats, with deep waters portending cultural destruction between us.

Knowing this over 200 years the Europeans having been pulling at the rope, making it tighter around themselves, and so on. With time we Indics have been losing our balance, with the danger of kipping over the edge.

It is time to pull back! The rope cannot be cut anymore. All we can do is pull harder. For that we need a lot of Indian "Out-of-India" scholars. :wink:


The thing is Indo-European proponents have carefully ensured that on the Indian side, besides a little talk of Sanskrit having a little Dravidian-"substratum", there is no real anchor for Sanskrit. This allows the AIT-guys to pull Sanskrit into Central Asian Urheimat narrative.

What we need is a strong anchor for Sanskrit within the Indian Subcontinent itself. Tamil can give Sanskrit just such an anchor.

If we take the boat example again, if beside the rope tied around Sanskrit's torso which is pulling Sanskrit forward into the Central Asian Urheimat vortex, if we were to tie another rope with one end around Sanskrit and another around Tamil, giving it an additional anchor then in this tug-of-war, the Europeans would lose.

Added Later: One could consider Tamil as the mast of the Indic boat in which Sanskrit stands but is being pulled out of it by the AIT crowd. Tying Sanskrit to mast would preclude that Sanskrit falls out.
Last edited by RajeshA on 15 Jun 2012 19:25, edited 2 times in total.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 17:55

Kanson wrote:
With all these information, there is definitely ground to believe and further explore the possibility of Tamil being a possible PIE/Proto-Asian language.


Definitely. The PIE band have built up a fake model based on a biased 18th century premise. But frankly I am beginning to detest the name PIE as much as Indo-Aryan.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_20317 » 15 Jun 2012 18:09

Re. Kanson Post subject: Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to TruthPosted: 15 Jun 2012 17:38

Ramana ji / Kanson ji can you cross post this write up in the link language thread too.

It is a must read. Shows how much of interaction is possible and how things can be worked out.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 15 Jun 2012 18:16

Kanson - I am sure you already know, but "Ko" (or Kon) in old Tamil is "king" which is strikingly similar to Konig in German.

member_20317
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3167
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_20317 » 15 Jun 2012 18:22

Also P. V. Vartak ji had in an online article put forth some pretty cogent arguments on dating of Mahabharat which in turn provide basis for other datings.

It is obvious these Uropains are working at multiple levels to deny us our own home and hearth.

In case of Sanskrit when I first read the grammer looked less like a language and more like the systems of units that are used by Physics. It looked like a long and deliberate effort to standardize things, not something that a layman would be interested in. I doubt if such sophistication was build up by Panini and predecessors on their own without some help. To me at least it is rather convincing that Tamil alongwith a lot of other Indian languages could have been among the original natural web of languages providing input for the more refined language of Sanskrit and in turn later on getting affected by Sanskrit.

Sanskrit is not a language that can be designed without a huge degree of effort by a good many number of capable brains. These people in turn will require cues from the natural world.
Last edited by member_20317 on 15 Jun 2012 18:23, edited 1 time in total.

member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 15 Jun 2012 18:22

Some linguistic analysis and comparison of Tamil and Japanese:
Also gives a nice table of word roots comparison and words for example, pasting only few:

Table 1. Word Correspondence (Jap. F: Tam. p., pp)
 
J.       Far-u           (to swell, expand)
T.      Par-u          (to swell {DEDR 3972])
 
J.       Far-ara        (to be broken off)
T.      par-i           (to be sundered [DEDR 3962])
 
J.       Far-uka        (to be far off)
T.      par-a           (to be far, wide [DEDR 3949])
 


http://arutkural.tripod.com/tolcampus/jap-tamil.htm

member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby member_22872 » 15 Jun 2012 18:25

Ravi ji, please refer to the link Rajesh ji had posted about Sanskrit, the blog has an article comparing Sanskrit to OOP, it's pretty neat.
Last edited by member_22872 on 15 Jun 2012 18:29, edited 1 time in total.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 12 guests