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CRamS wrote:Guys, I am not in US at the moment, and so I won't be able to give you the subtle condescending, white-racism exonerating media coverage of this massacre, but someone already gave me a hint. By calling it "terrorism" instead what it is, a hate crime, there is a subtle attempt to make this out to be something alien, "oh someone de-ranged", "not one of us" kind of crap.
Right. And there was much outrage that the fellow was *not* called a terrorist at first because "Oh! So only brown people can be terrorists, white people only commit "hate crimes" is it?". Now that he is called a terrorist, it becomes an attempt "To club him with brown people so he is not considered one of the white people". But then he is called "Domestic terrorist", so that becomes "oh it just subtly implies legal immigrant brown people can be terrorist too".
^^ Wow. By the way, it is still being investigated.
Like other officials, Ahern said authorities have not determined a motive, adding "we are a long way away from that right now." Teresa Carlson, special agent in charge at the FBI's Milwaukee division, said late Sunday that investigators are still assessing whether this "might be an act of domestic terrorism, no motive has been determined at this time."
One of the temple's committee members, Ven Boba Ri, said that based on communication with people inside the temple, the shooter was a white male in his 30s.
"We have no idea," he said of the motive. "It's pretty much a hate crime. It's not an insider."
According to Ri, the man started shooting after he walked up to a priest who was standing outside, and shot him.
Then he went inside and started shooting.
People inside the temple were using cell phones to call people outside, saying please send help, Ri said.
"It's sad, I don't know how to describe it," said Ri, who has been fielding calls all morning from around the world, including India.
"Sikhism is such a peaceful religion. We have suffered for generations, in India and even here."
Would it be wrong to say that shooting deaths are common in the US because guns are available easily?
It is also an old and tired question because everyone knows this, but the US is unable to do anything much about it. It is part of the US's identity to allow guns to be available freely. Over and above this US self image of freedom to own firearms is the myth that the US remains a safe place despite the 200 million privately owned firearms that are on the loose in the US.
200 million privately owned firearms are why the US has companies like Browning and Colt as opposed to India's sick PSUs that ensure India still imports Beretta. But the US is not such a safe place because of the freedom to own guns and the successful industrial-economic model of private industry producing high quality firearms in huge numbers to compete in an open market where consumer decides what is good.
In US the people who are known as 'white supremacists' are quite well-informed folks with access to net these days. It isn't very likely that he didn't know, or didn't research who the sikhs really were before committing the crime. Which again brings one round to the motive aspect.
To understand my point, consider hypothetically that something like this takes place today in India under the watchful gaze of DDM. Can you imagine the level of introspective, self loathing and reverse hared of Hindus that would be spilled? I am asking for a fraction of that kind of introspection from a society, which as I said holds other religions in contempt. Call him terrorist or bigot or whatever, but any attempt to distance that guy whose actions manifest that most extreme form of prejudice that exists in the wider society in many ways is fraudulent coverage. And US media is very skillful at that.
'Terrorism' is definitely an improvement - but the real test would be whether the media deigns to term it 'Christian terrorism' (assuming religion turns up as the motivation).
KJoishy wrote:
I am surprised, not much news is coming out.
If its embarrassing to the state, nothing much will come out. Thats how a superpower functions. Remember, this kind of an incident is embarrassing to US's pretensions of upholding "human rights" worldwide, so that PR campaign will take a hit if the coverage is too damaging.
Firearms remain functional do not degenerate for many decades. How many firearms can be owned by people before things start getting dangerous?
This is a situation that the US has no control over. The US cannot do anything about it. In 50 years all people of my generation will be dead, but all the guns sold in the last 50 years and the next 50 years will remain functional. Exactly where is the US going?
We don't know and there's nothing we can do about it even if we did. Whining about America is not a productive use of our time. BTW, didn't you say you were going to spare us your sanctimony here?
So many years have passed since the 9/11 and we still hear about the Sikhs being associated with it, this is such a crock of $hit. I kind of wonder how many such insular folks exist in Unkil land.
shiv wrote:Firearms remain functional do not degenerate for many decades. How many firearms can be owned by people before things start getting dangerous?
This is a situation that the US has no control over. The US cannot do anything about it. In 50 years all people of my generation will be dead, but all the guns sold in the last 50 years and the next 50 years will remain functional. Exactly where is the US going?
Shiv, according to many in US who advocate gun ownership, they argue that if more people had a gun, they could have taken out the muderer faster. They said the same thing in the Colorodo Batman movie shooting incident. In fact, the number of people applying for gun license increased in Colorodo after the shooting incident. So I don't think gun control is at the top of the list in US.
It is just something that people will have to live with. At least non-US citizens can go back to their countries if they are afraid of staying back.
putnanja wrote:
It is just something that people will have to live with. At least non-US citizens can go back to their countries if they are afraid of staying back.
True. And this is a situation that the US government and people have absolutely no control over, which is a fascinating data point about what the US can or cannot do and what it might do in future. I have had the opportunity to think about this and have much to say in the realm of speculation, but there is currently no place on BR where I might put it down, although I do intend to include it in whatever I end up writing in future.
Your observation about non US citizens in the US having a place to go back to is interesting as a concept. People who don't belong are welcome to ship out I guess.
putnanja wrote:
Shiv, according to many in US who advocate gun ownership, they argue that if more people had a gun, they could have taken out the muderer faster. They said the same thing in the Colorodo Batman movie shooting incident. In fact, the number of people applying for gun license increased in Colorodo after the shooting incident. So I don't think gun control is at the top of the list in US.
It is just something that people will have to live with. At least non-US citizens can go back to their countries if they are afraid of staying back.
Having a gun is one thing, engaging a shooter and putting him down is totally a different thing. It requires professional training. Not everybody can do it. Without training, it will be shooting in the dark and might create more panic leading people present to believe that there are multiple shooters which will only worsen the situation.
I will be a little politically incorrect here and if this hurts anybody's sensibilities, the moderators can feel free to ask me to delete this post and I will.
Let me start off by saying that I am a great fan of ths Sikh people in general. I absolutely admire their historic role in checking the excesses of Islamic rulers in India and even resisting in some cases Islamic rule in India. If they had done nothing else, that by itself would place them in a position of honor as a community among all Indians.
But they did lots more. Their contributions to the armed forces are known to all. Their gallantry, their sacrifices, their skill as warriors and their courage is an example for all Indians. They also were with others pioneers of green revolution in India and greatly responsible for turning Punjab into the agricultural powerhouse that it is today. Their enterpreneurial contributions to the rest of India, particularly in the transportation industry, but also in other industries such as hospitality have been enormous. The Sikhs also have been at the forefront in leading the way in migrating to other countries and successfully negotiating hostile social environments around the world.
Personally, I also find the Sikhs in general to be straight forward, honest and large hearted, all qualities not as abundantly prevelent in modern day India as they should be.
Having said all of the above, on the subject of the Wisconsin bombing, I feel that what goes around, comes around. It is almost like the chickens are coming home to roost. It is these very Sikhs, based out of North America who with tacit support from at least some powerful elements within the Canadian and the US governments pioneered and peddled the idea of Khalistan, mainly by being the chief financiers of the movement in the 1970s and 80s. I am proud to say that I have not heard of any incident in India where a hindu has shot a Sikh, merely because he wears a turban or has a beard or belongs to another religion. I am also proud to say that I have not heard of any incident in India where random zealots have entered any gurudwara and shot Sikhs. The Sikhs never had to justify their existence in India, as rightfully they never should have to. They never had to and never will have to go on TV explaining the tenets of their religion and explain themselves in a humiliating manner, as they have had to do in the US.
In the US on the other hand, every month or so, at least since 9-11, some lunatic shoots down a Sikh or two, and the Sikh community in North America which until recently had started claiming, while totally negating history, that they dont have now and have never had any problems with the muslim community, it is the Hindus that they have problems with - now has to go on TV after every random killing of a Sikh and talk about how they are totally different from muslims.
So, in view of all of the above, these North American Sikhs, who never claim that they are Indians - they always say they are from Punjab or from someplace in South Asia "between the borders of India and Pakistan", want to separate from India and dont mind the humiliation they suffer in the US culture and society. This recent temple shooting may be the latest divine omen that nothing good comes out of being unfair and unjust. If you are unfair and unjust in one area, providence shows its disapproval to the unfair and the unjust in other settings, perhaps even far far away.
Last edited by member_23687 on 06 Aug 2012 10:42, edited 2 times in total.
eyewitness points out presence of multiple shooters, where has the second one run off to ?
this act and the one at colorado comes suspisciously before some UN gun summit or treaty
If the second gunman isn't caught for the second time, it would seem like a pattern of manchurian candidates who are ably assisted by a handler and accomplice who fades in and out of the scene and leaves some drug-addled moron to face the music.
Some witnesses at the scene had said there was more than one gunman, but Edwards said reports of multiple gunmen were common in incidents that involved only one shooter.
The mass killing began when a white gunman or gunmen walked into the kitchen of the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin about 10:30 CDT (11.30 a.m. EDT) and started shooting, according to congregation members in touch with people inside the building.
reuters
The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported that their reporters received a text message saying that there were “two shooters with children possibly as hostages.”
Bobbyp why just NA sikhs all sikhs are khalistanis everywhete f rom brampton to batala. And especially sikhs of Milwaukee and they are reaping what they sow in 80s. Is that what u are saying? Have you ever been to a Gurdwara away from toronto vancouver nyc
I am sorry to hurt your feelings. Trust me, I am as hurt as you at these shootings. I dont differentiate among Indians based on birth. It hurts me just as much when there is talk of separation, particularly from the Sikhs. It is like a part of my body is being yanked off. It also hurts me to see Sikhs having to come on TV in the US and justify their religion and point out how they are different from muslims. You think, these lunatics and white supremacists care that they are not "muslims" or different from "muslims" ?
I will never every say that all Sikhs are Khalistanis. I will also never say that the vast majority of Sikhs are Khalistanis. But I would say that a majority of NA Sikhs do have those tendencies. I am sorry, but that has been my experience.
5% of the sikh population have khalistani affiliations but same could also be serving in indian defense. The khalistani folks are very vocal and are now thought of jokers. They can't collect any money any more and only live by memories and oictures of 80s.
Witness said it was 4 men in black tactical gear with rifles.
Dead shooter lived on Holmes St and they are searching his house for explosives. His neighbors said he just moved in a week ago, they don't know him.
He is white, bald, 30s, muscular build, tattoos. Cops leaked "He must be a skinhead white supremacist due to the tattoos.
Rumor to have 911 tattoo, they say he was in the US military.
They say its a hate crime.
Colorado battleground state
Wisconsin battleground state
The film Sirius is about to be released and the topic is FREE ENERGY that he claims has been possible since the days to Tesla 100 yrs ago.
A Sikh guy who works on the Sirius projects father was shot.
Manish_Sharma wrote:
BobbyP your post sums up the whole situation with great clarity. Most of my friends are sikhs and this friendship has lasted from our school days. They have lots of relatives in Canada and US. Now I know these friends and their families now for more than 25 years every family function I am invited to. Many times visiting them I come across their NRI relatives and difference of attitude is vast. These NRI sikhs, for them khalistan issue is still very much alive. While the sikhs living in Delhi see it as a phase of 'anger against injustices of IG'.
So whenever I'm visiting their house in normal days we may gossip about politics, religion or social issues agreements and disagreements are in very lightly ways. But boy when these NRI's are their the moment I'm saying something on these issue their whole bunch becomes quiet looking at me very intently, I can feel the intensity of how much this matters to them. So your reading of situation is spot on.
-1
Pls give Khalistan non-issue a rest, at least on this thread.
habal wrote:Some witnesses at the scene had said there was more than one gunman, but Edwards said reports of multiple gunmen were common in incidents that involved only one shooter.
The other possibility to consider is that there really have been accomplices in many of these incidents ...
RIP the dead. Agree with Pranav no point talking about Khali-stans here...as more Americans get fed up inner Pakistaniyat released by Pakistanis and their ummah birathers, they take matters into own hands and hence cases of such mistaken identity seems rising.
The more the US Sikhs explain they are not Ummah and therefore should be spared, the more they identify themselves with yindoos. If they happen to be separatist types, that is even better because they have to travel even further ideologically to do so.
BobbyP wrote:I will be a little politically incorrect here and if this hurts anybody's sensibilities, the moderators ccommunity in North America which until recently had started claiming, while totally negating history, that they dont have now and have never had any problems with the muslim community, it is the Hindus that they have problems with - now has to go on TV after every random killing of a Sikh and talk about how they are totally different from muslims.
So, in view of all of the above, these North American Sikhs, who never claim that they are Indians - they always say they are from Punjab or from someplace in South Asia "between the borders of India and Pakistan", want to separate from India and dont mind the humiliation they suffer in the US culture and society. This recent temple shooting may be the latest divine omen that nothing good comes out of being unfair and unjust. If you are unfair and unjust in one area, providence shows its disapproval to the unfair and the unjust in other settings, perhaps even far far away.
+1
Khalistani sentiment isn't limited to UK, NA only. Many such folks in J&K, Punjab still have pictures of Khalistani terrorists in their homes, places of worship etc., even on t-shirts. Social networking sites are full of thousands such morons who claim solidarity with Islam, spew venom against India and Hinduism. I agree from personal experience that the majority is sane and has no separatist tendencies, but that lunatic fringe can't just be wished away.
Although it's too early to suggest anything right now, these NRI Sikh groups have ties with Pakis and probably even western intelligence agencies. It could be just a feud or a targeted hit gone wrong.
I will never every say that all Sikhs are Khalistanis. I will also never say that the vast majority of Sikhs are Khalistanis. But I would say that a majority of NA Sikhs do have those tendencies. I am sorry, but that has been my experience.
I don't know where you got your conclusion about "majority of north american sikhs" being khalistanis. I also don't know what justifies your choosing this time to make your "what goes around, comes around" comment, disguised behind so many platitudinous disclaimers.
From my experience, prior to nov '84 one gurudwara out of 3-4 in the LA area had a reputation as a pro-khalistan hotspot. Post nov '84, there was a lot of feeling expressed in the other gurudwaras and many more people in the larger community that India has rejected sikhs and there is no future for sikhs in India. Personally I find the feeling quite understandable, though hurtful, especially since even today no more than a handful of the criminals of nov '84 and called to account and many went on to have good political careers. I remain grateful to God and Waheguru for the patriotism and love most sikhs have for India.
jamwal wrote:Although it's too early to suggest anything right now, these NRI Sikh groups have ties with Pakis and probably even western intelligence agencies. It could be just a feud or a targeted hit gone wrong.
If its too early for saying horrible things, then please don't say it.
Until it is proven that these people were active khalistani supporters - we have to treat them as our own.
this is no time or place to bring in khalistan or other extraneous topics. if you are unsure about whether a topic should be here or not, try a simple test. would you be comfortable making that comment to one of the family members of the victims ? if not, spare us as well.
there shall be no informal cautions for such topics after this.
- Rahul.
My advice for all PIOs living in US including Hindus and Sikhs. Arm yourself. Devote sometime to firearms training. Get a Concealed carry permit if you can( A huge majority of states in US allow this). Develop a Combat/Warrior mindset.
Such kind of incidents are only going to increase in future in America. And Indian origin people are among the most vulnerable groups because they are the ultimate soft targets. Be prepared.
Try to ensure whenever such incident happens again, you should not depend on cops to take out the shooter.
Amardeep Kaleka is the name of the producer/director of the upcoming movie 'Sirius' and his father was shot dead in the Wisconsin shooting.
Similarly Aurora shooter John Holmes father was about to testify in some important case,
Holmes’ father, Robert Holmes, reportedly is a senior lead analyst with FICO, and was scheduled to testify as a whistle-blower in the coming weeks regarding the LIBOR scandal, was was reportedly ready to name big names involved in the massive global fraud as well as provide evidence to the Senate Banking Committee linking the high level executives to their crimes
colour revolution, facebook rent-a-mob in egypt, rent-an-army in Syria, rent-a-despot Libya and now this .. is this the 'smart war' Obama was talking about all along ! kamzor qatl bhi ho jaye aur lathi bhi na toote.
My sincere condolences for families of the departed.
Whether its termed a hate crime or a terrorist attack, its appaling to see the amount of stupidity displayed by the perpetrator of this massacre.
I mean, he planned to indiscriminately snuff out random people who were the "other" and who bore a resemblance to the persona of his "enemy" ( assuming the "enemy" are the "Jihadi towelheads").
Ordinarily, should'nt hatred of such scale be acted upon only after an indepth analysis of the people they are targeting ? - afterall he made up his mind to snuff out lives - maybe including those of women,kids,elderly as "collateral damage".
He took care of his shotguns/handguns/assault rifles oiled and cleaned them, then trained with them, probably recceed the location too. But he didnt get the basic fact that they are actually not his "enemy". I mean how ignorant can one be ?
Even the "Jihadi towelheads" have an excuse for their dumbness if one consider's their indoctrination by their handlers/mullahs who also designate their targets. So what's the "all american" jock's excuse for zeroing on Sikhs as his targets , because google images for "terrorist" threw up a lot of "towelheads" ?
All this Hullabaloo about globalization/global village/glocalism is only taken seriously by unsuspecting NRIs and other nonresident nationalities within america and as such the average american can always afford to keep his head buried up his all american *** othering anyone else and oblivious to the effect their beloved leaders are having on the world outside his limited ken.
