Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

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SBajwa
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by SBajwa »

by BobbyP

Then I urge the mainstream Sikhs to come out more forcefully against the Khalistanis, speak out against them, fight them within the religious councils and Sikhs religious and social organizations and expel this element, banishing them into scrap heap of history.
I do not see any Khalistanis in small town gurdwaras (only Toronto, Vancouver, NY and D.C).

BTW.. Khalsa day parade committee (with known ISI connections) is having a vigil at Lincoln memorial (D.C) on Saturday and have contacted us to be there! but going by their past organizations I would not be surprised if some real Paki shows up there and blames India for this crime!

Only the small town people where majority of the population is directly emigrated from villages of punjab around 1980s and only reads punjabi newspaper still believe in Khalistan stuff! rest just ignore them!!

I have been telling the folks to put their energies on the local issues in USA and let the Sikhs from India decide whether they want Khalistan or not!!
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Prem »

Sikh Temple Shooter's Ex Wants The Public To Focus On 'Heroes' Of Tragedy

http://www.businessinsider.com/wisconsi ... z22zDxN9Er
Wade Page's ex-girlfriend was arrested for allegedly having an illegal gun in the home she once shared with the man believed to have killed six people at a Wisconsin Sikh temple.Misty Cook, a 31-year-old waitress and nursing student, was taken in as part of a joint investigation by the FBI and the South Milwaukee police, the Los Angeles Times reported Tuesday.On Wednesday, the LA Times reported she wanted the "heroes" of the Sikh shooting to be the focus of attention – and not her."I have given no official statement," she told the Times.Page had lived with Cook until just a few weeks before the shootings, the LA Times reported.Cook was active in the white-power movement Volksfront and the women's white power group Crew 38, the Anti-Defamation League told the LA Times.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23687 »

SBajwa wrote:
by BobbyP

Then I urge the mainstream Sikhs to come out more forcefully against the Khalistanis, speak out against them, fight them within the religious councils and Sikhs religious and social organizations and expel this element, banishing them into scrap heap of history.
I do not see any Khalistanis in small town gurdwaras (only Toronto, Vancouver, NY and D.C).

BTW.. Khalsa day parade committee (with known ISI connections) is having a vigil at Lincoln memorial (D.C) on Saturday and have contacted us to be there! but going by their past organizations I would not be surprised if some real Paki shows up there and blames India for this crime!

Only the small town people where majority of the population is directly emigrated from villages of punjab around 1980s and only reads punjabi newspaper still believe in Khalistan stuff! rest just ignore them!!

I have been telling the folks to put their energies on the local issues in USA and let the Sikhs from India decide whether they want Khalistan or not!!

Bajwa Sab,

I have the ultimate respect for you and people like you. Let me be the first to state that if the overwhelming part of the mainstream Sikhs had not been against Khalistan, this movement would not have been defeated and there would have been a lot more bloodshed in our accursed and unfortunate homeland. My appeal was only for the mainstream to be more vocal and completely drown out the voices of hate.

But more importantly, I want to ask you for a favor. Please educate me and people like me, how we can speak forcefully against hate and separatism and Khalistan menatality, without offending the vast number of Sikhs who are respected members of our larger family ? In other words please help us with inventing a grammer, a language, with dos and donts, so that what we feel can be said without offending ? It is very important that we constant evolve new languages. I have had to do that to deal with my teenage children. I couldnt take it for granted that since they were my very own children, that I wouldnt have to invent and/or learn new ways to communicate with them more effectively and in a way that they will listen rather than tune us out. When even with our children we have to be careful, not to offend, certainly, the demands of our brothers should be no less sacrosanct.

So, do help us develop a language where we can communicate our thoughts clearly, with self respect, without being dimmifid, while at the same time, not offending.
SBajwa
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by SBajwa »

I want to ask you for a favor. Please educate me and people like me, how we can speak forcefully against hate and separatism and Khalistan menatality, without offending the vast number of Sikhs who are respected members of our larger family ? In other words please help us with inventing a grammer, a language, with dos and donts, so that what we feel can be said without offending ?
Well here in Pittsburgh, PA we have about 200 families (Punjabi Sikhs/Hindus and Sindhis) who come to Gurdwara from a radius of 100 miles. Vast majority of people are well educated (Doctors, Engineers, professionals) and our issues are

1. Should we have Akhand Paath or not? We think that it is a wasted effort to keep reciting the book without understanding it and people who are against us are old folks. We celebrate 4 events with Akhand paath in one year which are Visakhi, Guru Ajan Dev ji martyrdom day, Guru Nanak's Birthday and Guru Gobind Singh birthday. While for Diwali and other events we just have normal kirtan.

2. Social events vs "spiritual" events. We want teenagers, young folks to be more involved in social activities (sports, education, volunteer work) as oppose to old generation who want to recite "Sukhmani sahib" path on Saturdays (for example) or have Kirtan by regular Granthis from India.

3. Just this coming saturday is our concluding children's camp that was held from last 6 saturdays (all day)., where children (50 children signed up and 15-18 of them are non-Sikh Punjabi/Sindhi Hindus. This camp is called "Gurmatt Camp" and was to discuss history of Sikhs (not in this or last century), Sikh gurus, values, ethics, etc. along with fun (games, sports, painting competition, etc).

Sikhs are suppose to be very progressive (egalitarian) and question anything that is un-sikhi like!! I guess just find another sikh family that is roughly same age as you and build up communications!! You cannot convince the "older generation" who are deep into the "Khalistani" stuff!! They need to be ignored and energies need to be put into the next generation!
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23687 »

^^^^ Thanks, I will try to do what you suggest.

However, your post above brings me to an interesting question. I have read posts on this forum and I also know this independently of this forum, that the older generation in India, even when it came to Hindus and Muslims cross borders, have a far more tolerant attitude towards each other, because of memories of togetherness, common culture etc. An example will be people like Gujral, Kuldip Nayar, even Manmohan Singh, but lest we attribute it to the pseudo secular ideology of the Congress, let me also mention Advani, so I think falls in that category albeit to a slightly lesser extent. It is commonly said that it is the younger generation with no memory of togetherness that really is alienated with each other.

You seem to suggest that it is the older Sikhs that are more steeped in Khalistan ideology than the younger ones, in general. This to me is very surprising. Even more than the Hindus and the Muslims, the older Sikhs and Hindus have been so "together" in the past that I would have thought that the older generation would have been more for "togetherness", than the younger generation. Also, in the Sikh community, it is a common refrain that Operation Bluestar was the lightening rod that hurt a lot of feelings. Since Bluestar is recent, I would have thought that it would affect the younger generation more.

Please shed some light on this, if you can. Thanks.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by A_Gupta »

A discussion of attempts to connect white supremacy and US foreign policy by Glenn Greenwald:
http://www.salon.com/2012/08/08/unintended_causation/
ramana
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ramana »

Bobbyp and SBajwa Please do not discuss anything other than the shootings in this thread.

It really detracts from the tragedy. You think you are in an academic/learning discussion but it takes away from the focus of this thread.
And is insensitive to others.

Thanks,

ramana
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ramana »

Timeline of violence against Sikhs since 9/11


From Time Magazine:

Aug 5th, 2012, Sunday’s shooting incident at a Sikh gurdwara in a Milwaukee suburb is only the latest example of a history of violence against devotees of the centuries-old South Asian religion since the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. In the majority of these cases, Sikhs say, they were mistaken for Muslims, because of their religious dress, which includes turbans, beards and long robes. The Sikh community, which totals around 314,000 in the U.S., is entirely separate from the Muslim faith. But in the wake of 9/11, violence against Sikhs spiked.

Prabhjot Singh, co-founder and trustee of the New York-based Sikh Coalition, started the group on the evening of 9/11 “to respond to the tragic events of that day,” he tells TIME. Sikh-Americans were attacked twice that day, he says: once by the terrorists, and once by “fellow Americans” who mistook Sikhs for Muslims. His organization, which fields reports of discrimination against Sikhs across the nation, serves as an advocate for all devotees of the religion and attempts to foster goodwill between Sikhs and other Americans. “We’re hoping this tragic incident can be used as an opportunity to engage in maybe a broader dialogue of xenophobia in America,” he says. The Sikh Coalition has received more than 1,000 complaints of violence or discrimination against Sikhs since September 11, 2001. Here are some of the worst attacks:

Sept. 15, 2001: The Sikh owner of a Chevron gas station in a Phoenix suburb was murdered by a gunman just days after 9/11, in one of the first major cases of violence against a Sikh-American in the wake of the attacks. Balbir Singh Sodhi, 49, was fatally shot by 42-year-old Frank Roque, a Mesa, Ariz. resident, who said he was lashing out at “Arabs” after watching repeated footage of the World Trade Center attacks on television. He also attempted to shoot a Lebanese-American clerk at a nearby Mobil station and fired at a home owned by Afghan-Americans. As he was being arrested on charges of first-degree murder, Roque reportedly shouted, “I stand for America all the way.” He was convicted of Sodhi’s murder and was sentenced to death, which was later reduced to life in prison. Sodhi’s name was added to Arizona’s 9/11 memorial in the wake of the tragedy.


Nov 18, 2001: A Sikh house of worship, the Gobind Sadan, was severely damaged in an arson attack just months after 9/11. Located in Palermo, N.Y., 30 miles north of Syracuse, the temple was set ablaze by three local teenagers who reportedly mistook the name as “Go bin Laden.” :mrgreen: Located in an old farmhouse, most of the structure was destroyed after the teens tossed beer bottles at the windows and then set it on fire; the only surviving rooms were the ones containing the Sikhs’ holy scriptures. The temple was later demolished to make way for a new one, which reopened in 2008. The three teenagers were charged with arson in the blaze, which caused $120,000 worth of damage.

Dec 10, 2001: Surinder Singh Sidhu had been wearing a star-spangled turban in the wake of the terrorist attacks to show his patriotism, but it couldn’t stop the Los Angeles liquor store owner from being the victim of a vicious anti-religious attack. As the 47-year-old closed his shop, two men entered with 4-foot metal poles and beat him more than 20 times, reportedly saying “We’ll kill bin Laden today.” Sidhu was treated for head injuries but survived.

March 14, 2004: Vandals spray-painted anti-Sikh graffiti on a Fresno, Calif. :eek: temple just before worshippers gathered for Sunday services. The racist phrases ‘Rags Go Home’ and ‘It’s Not Your Country’ were scrawled on the outside walls of the Gurdwara Sahib in the northern Calif. city. No one was ever arrested in connection with the graffiti.

July 11, 2004: Two Sikh cousins were attacked by a group of six people as they walked into an Indian restaurant in the New York City borough of Queens. Rajinder Singh Khalsa and his cousin Gurcharan Singh, the restaurant’s owner, were stopped by the group of allegedly drunk men outside the restaurant. “Give me back my curtain,” one allegedly said to Singh before beating them. The 54-year-old Khalsa lay unconscious after the attack, taken to the hospital with a broken nose and bruised eye socket.

July 30, 2006: A Sikh grandfather was stabbed in the neck with a steak knife by a man who wanted “to kill a Taliban.” Iqbal Singh was standing in his driveway in Santa Clara, Calif., :eek: preparing to depart for religious services, when Everett Thompson, 20, ran up to him and stabbed him with the knife. Thompson was arrested and charged with attempted murder and a hate crime.

November 28, 2010: A Sacramento, Calif. :eek: cab driver was beaten by two Hispanic men after dropping off them and their wives. Harbhajan Singh, 56, was left bleeding in his cab after the attack, during which one of the men asked if he was Osama bin Laden. Singh, a Sikh, was beaten more than 10 times and suffered facial fractures. He stumbled to a nearby housing complex to ask for help. After a five-day manhunt, the two men turned themselves in to police. One received 13 years in jail for the attack.

March 4, 2011: Two elderly Sikhs were shot as they took an afternoon stroll in Elk Grove, Calif., :eek: a suburb of Sacramento. Surinder Singh, 65, was pronounced dead at the scene, while his friend Gurmej Atwal, 78, was rushed to the hospital in critical condition and died six weeks later. Both men were gunned down as they ambled slowly through a quiet neighborhood, seeming victims of a drive-by shooting. The gunmen were never found.
Looks like the most egregious attacks were in Northern and Central California. A very good case for asking Governor Jerry Brown to launch an initiative to socialize the message about the Sikhs and stop the violence against them.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ShauryaT »

ramana wrote: Looks like the most egregious attacks were in Northern and Central California. A very good case for asking Governor Jerry Brown to launch an initiative to socialize the message about the Sikhs and stop the violence against them.
It is time for a nationwide campaign. I think what is happening is these turds see Arabs with head gear and beards on TV and most Arabs do not wear such head gear nor most sport beards in the US. Our Sikh brohers are taking the brunt of this ignorance combined with other ills and issues of the American society.

High time right down from the Indian embassy and the 1000+ American based Indian organizations make this a top issue. I wish there was a way to call for a mass protest across the 800+ hindu temples in America in the next few days/week on chosen day/time. I am not in the US now, have sent some emails to people and orgs but can only do so much from a vacation spot, with spotty internet access.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by SBajwa »

You seem to suggest that it is the older Sikhs that are more steeped in Khalistan ideology than the younger ones, in general.
Ramana!! just last answer!!

By older generation I meant middle aged current 50-60 years old! who were young in 1984-1990 period! The really old people who lived in Lahore/Rawalpindi were more tolerant of other people and faiths! The issues at that time were also different (not eating cooked food, water, etc).
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Prem »

The most simple way to educate the simp;le minded people is to let them know that indian Turban is colorful and not plain white like the islamists. This will able them to make the distiction with just one glance.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ManjaM »

To expect a mullet wearing, mouth breathing, beer swilling hick to appreciate the difference between an muslim head dress(which itself has a few variants) and a sikh turban is expecting an appreciation of nuance that is decidedly beyond his mental capabilities. Like Bajwa and Darshan have said, time to upgrade from Kirpans to Glocks and Mossbergs.
To spread mass awareness among the population that is not likely to commit these atrocities is a complete waste of resources. These guys still hate jews after a couple of thousand years of the desert god getting crucified.
I am myself heading down to the gun shop this weekend and getting myself a mossberg to keep at home.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Kanishka »

This attack on the Gurudwara is not a hate crime as the media is presenting. If the motive was "hate" the obvious target would have been a mosque. The murderer(s) was/were educated and there is no way he/they would not know the difference. It is not a case of mistaken identity.
However without a doubt the Sikh temple and Sikhs were targeted deliberately. The question is why?

Wild as it may sound, me thinks someone is sending a warning/message to GOI and to MMS in particular.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by partha »

Even terrorism is hate crime. Do you think 9/11 or 26/11 terrorists did what they did without hate in their hearts and minds?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ramana »

Kanishka, Maybe the guy mistook the temple for a mosque. Repeatedly after action reprots shwo that the Aemrican perpetrators mistook the Sikhs for Muslims. So its a transfer of hate issue.

Read the following by a lawyer in New York

Sikh Inclusiveness is lesson in fighting bigotry

And while listenting to sanctimonius words from the leaders after the shooting recall that Hilary Clinton was called Democrat-Punjab!

So the Sikhs are considered targets of opportunity but the high and low in US.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23367 »

This is what doing the rounds on internet

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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by lakshmikanth »

The blog post below (although unecessarily brings in Hindu==Sikh==Skinheads==violent peoples onleee stupidity) outlines how "Othering" has taken a toll on this (born-again) Sikh dude:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amit-s-ba ... 57195.html
I am not a religious person. I have spent a long enough period of my life studying religion and I understand, appreciate, laud, and deride the various roles it has and continues to play in both bridging and dividing not just people, but also places and thought.

And yet today, of all days, I am a Sikh. I want nothing more than to wear a turban and grow a beard and walk down the streets of DC -- certainly no Oak Creek -- but my no means any less uncomfortable with bearded, turbaned men, and declare to the barista and to the clerk that yes, I am the Other and no, I will not be afraid.
Read it all.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Victor »

FBI says gunman in sikh shooting killed himself.
.. the gunman shot himself in the head after the second police officer responding to the scene shot him in the stomach.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by SriKumar »

ShauryaT wrote:It is time for a nationwide campaign. I think what is happening is these turds see Arabs with head gear and beards on TV and most Arabs do not wear such head gear nor most sport beards in the US. Our Sikh brothers are taking the brunt of this ignorance
I think this is exactly right. Many Americans look at the turbans and mistake sikhs not just as Muslims but as being similar to the terrorists that they see on TV. Muslims in the US do not wear turbans. Terrorists shown repeatedly on cable TV in US e.g. OBL, Mullah Omar and their cohorts have turbans, plus beards. These guys see the turbans and beards among the sikhs and think 'terrorists'. I do think the Sikh community and their supporters should atleast make this point clear...sikhs are their own religion, it is not Islam or any other religion (even if there are common aspects). This is a good time to get this message out since there is some level of national interest in the recent tragedy. Few months from now, all of this will be forgotten (heck, with presidential elections coming up, everything else will be pushed aside).
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Gus »

I remember my prof at PG in massa, cautioning me that people won't be able to tell the difference between Arabs and Indians and joked that you have to yell Elephant Elephant no Camel - to them because that is the level of brightness for some of them.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Gus »

habal wrote:
Who takes a 4 month old kid to a midnight movie?

The documentary film maker was the real target of death but the shooters got his dad instead. They wanted to send a message, stop the documentary about Sirius or you’re dead. I don’t believe for one minute the major shooter was a WN. I think he was a paid informant who PRETENDED to be a WN. That would accomplish 2 things, more gun grabbing and more demonization of the white race.
.

^+1
0. People. People take 4 mo old kids. Heck, we took our young one to HP8 night premiere.

1. Where are you quoting this from?

2. I don't think its just me, but I am going to stick my neck out and say this - Stop. You are consistently pushing a line that is not what this thread is for.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by habal »

Gus wrote: 2. I don't think its just me, but I am going to stick my neck out and say this - Stop. You are consistently pushing a line that is not what this thread is for.
err .. what's wrong in posting what one feels is truth and not jumping into the well along with everyone else. If you can offer some comfort into the questions that are obviously raised then you do have the right to stand up and point fingers. Else, you read and move on. Leading the forum (or attempting to), and that too based on what one's perception of satyameva jayate is, is not a crime.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by shiv »

habal wrote:
Who takes a 4 month old kid to a midnight movie?
This is a culturally blind question. Indians take their babies everywhere - even to midnight movies. It is akin to that Norway case where feeding a child with the hand was called force feeding or cruelty. Every Indian has been fed by hand by his mum.

I haven't understood the exact relationship of this question to the Sikh Gurudwara shooting. On Bharat Rakshak, this topic is a "guest topic" because it concerns Sikhs. What is the relationship of the quote to Sikhs or to this forum? To me references to Sirius are like references to some dame called Rheem. I don't know what the fug is being talked about - it is some internal American stuff. What's it doing on here?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by CRamS »

I visit BR, as many others do, to contribute views and learn, and to this end, one can encounter extremities on the useful knowledge/information scale. First the lowest of the lowest, I would say embarrassing to BR :-):

Wild as it may sound, me thinks someone is sending a warning/message to GOI and to MMS in particular.
And then of course, thanks to GuptaJi, this terrific deconstruction, almost presenting a causal link between US foreign policy and white supremacy.

A discussion of attempts to connect white supremacy and US foreign policy by Glenn Greenwald:
http://www.salon.com/2012/08/08/unintended_causation/
I would add to that media obsession with so called GWOT, especialy the Fox news propaganda machine, the terrorism "expert" chutiyas who abound by the 100s, and indeed I would argue as I did earlier that what the Wisconcin Page whatever pervert's mind is indeed an extreme manifestation of how the whites at large view the non-European world. Furthermore, as perverse as it might sound, I would say the only honest views in the aftermath of the tragedy are those of elite white supremacists like Pat Buchanan whose response to this slaughter will be: see I told you, we must have more immigrants from Ireland or Eastern Europe because they assimilate easily and less from Somalia or India. He has argued that allowing non-European immigrants is committing national suicide. Pat Buchanan types might be offensive, but at least they speak from the heart and eschew these self-satisfying bold-face lies and delusion that mainstream media will peddle, namely, Page is "deranged" or "not one of us", oh we are so pious onlee, there can be no Page among us etc.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by lakshmikanth »

^^^ habal sahib,

That post of yours was surely made by a white supremacists or a "white-right" activist absolving the white folks by inventing a conspiracy theory of the highest order.

The reference to a non-white woman breaking the "LAW" by taking a < 10 yo to a movie and then comparing it to the punishment given to white folks if they do the same (i.e. getting pulled up by Child Protective Services or CPS) is construed to mean that white people get punished for crimes that non-white people get away with. This is BULL $HIT of the highest order.

This is also a fine example of cognitive dissonance in display. How can a white man make a dumb f&&&&ing mistake like this??? So we invent a CT to explain it off... TOTALLY PAKI..

Sorry for the caps and the dots, could not hold my anger in.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by habal »

shiv wrote:
This is a culturally blind question. Indians take their babies everywhere - even to midnight movies. It is akin to that Norway case where feeding a child with the hand was called force feeding or cruelty. Every Indian has been fed by hand by his mum.
yes, it's a culturally pertinent question which 'could' be a factor. It depends upon the perception at that point of time as it appeals to locals. Only people on the ground know whether it's safe to take babies to cinema past midnight. As for the rest of the question, the significance is similar to Agha Waqar's water kit, if it works it can benefit everyone including the pakis ? Again it's a question of perception, only someone who is facing competition knows what is threat or not and what he perceives as a threat.

yes, lakshmikant ji, your suspiscions are accurate and am sorry about that.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by shiv »

habal wrote:
shiv wrote:
This is a culturally blind question. Indians take their babies everywhere - even to midnight movies. It is akin to that Norway case where feeding a child with the hand was called force feeding or cruelty. Every Indian has been fed by hand by his mum.
yes, it's a culturally pertinent question which 'could' be a factor. It depends upon the perception at that point of time as it appeals to locals. Only people on the ground know whether it's safe to take babies to cinema past midnight. As for the rest of the question, the significance is similar to Agha Waqar's water kit, if it works it can benefit everyone including the pakis ? Again it's a question of perception, only someone who is facing competition knows what is threat or not and what he perceives as a threat.
Habal you are saying that there is a connection between a woman taking a 4 month old child to a midnight cinema, a Pakistani water kit and the murder of sikhs in a US Gurudwara? Such a connection would normally be described as severe distortion in the perception of reality.

I think you need to face up to the fact that even if you are 100% correct no one is going to believe a word you say unless it sounds credible. On the other hand you can tell all the lies you want and as long as you sound credible, everyone will believe you. That is how the world works.

I request you to make your posts with more clarity or I will have to request admins to stop you from making what appear to me to be completely meaningless posts. Perhaps you need to make a long post explaining your viewpoint clearly and risk being told to stop. At least you would have got your viewpoint across. If you mean to say that racists in the US are targeting kaalus why not say it up front?
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by lakshmikanth »

^^^
Sorry for going OT.

Guys,

Can we stop peddling CT? Conspiracy theories is like the smoke that says the fire of cognitive dissonance is burning:

Check this out for a more detailed explanation: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... -theories/

Don't peddle CTs, don't be Paki and ruin the quality of this board. Please!
JE Menon
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by JE Menon »

It is equally possible that a bunch of infiltrators have been at work within BR for a long time targeting specific threads for disruption, distraction and disinformation. This is often combined with a bunch of "newbie" posts in the same thread, so that the newbies are pruned out and then the "stalwarts" remain doing their insidious task. Possible?

Anyway, any further patently ridiculous assertions like the sikhs were killed to target MMS is best kept to one-liners so no one feels upset that long posts were sent to trash without much ado. Don't waste time analysing and putting up long posts. They will be deleted at admin discretion and without any explanation. Can't be bothered.

This is a private forum. Think before you post. There is a thread somewhere for such absurdities. Feel free to contribute there.
ranjbe
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ranjbe »

Thousands expected to honor Sikh victims
Thousands of mourners were expected to gather Friday morning to pay their final respects to the six worshippers gunned down by a white supremacist at their Sikh temple over the weekend.Organizers initially allocated two hours for a wake and visitation at a nearby high school. But they added two hours to accommodate both mourners from around the world and U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder as a last-minute speaker.
Other dignitaries expected to attend the funeral include Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker and U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan.
http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-expecte ... 10183.html
member_23692
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23692 »

American Sikhs upset at Indian Sikhs protesting Gurudwara Killings in front of US Consulates in India

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... kh-council
"When US government and its people have stood with us in this hour of shock why should a nation or the government be blamed for the attack by a lunatic. Such protests send wrong signals about our community in the country of which we are now integral part. Worst is that when Sikhs are getting a very positive coverage in media about their religion and identity some non-entities are rather damaging our image," said Gursharan Singh, President of Sikh Temple at Portland from US.

"You can't blame a nation for the handowork of a lunatic and not even the government of US when the entire might of the state machinery has stood behind us. A police officer risked his life, they eliminated the attacker immediately and that the US government took every step to the bottom of the issue," held Bahadur Singh, President of Sikh Temple Salem, while speaking to TOI from US. "It is better that these professional protestors protest against Indian authorities who have been denying justice to Sikhs for the last 28 years after massacre of Sikhs in Delhi," he said

Dr. Rajwant Singh, Chairman of Sikh Council on Religion and Education, said, " by burning flag of United States, these people are harming the interests of the Sikh community worldwide, especially the Sikhs in the US. This seems like a disgruntled group without much following and their showing swords and burning of the flag is totally opposite to what Sikhs stand for and the peaceful message the Sikh community is currently portraying. We are proud the way America and its leadership at all levels has embraced the grieving community across the nation."

"While these appear to be tiny groups especially the one led by Paramjit Singh Pamma of National Akali Dal in Delhi having very few Sikhs with him we are also surprised that Shromani Akali Dal, the political party in Punjab who supposedly looks after the issues of the Sikhs, hasnothing to say against outrageous theatrical acts of these goons,' he said while also advising the media in India to act with restrain and to at least check the credentials of such fellow who turn up for media attention only..
:rotfl:

:rotfl: Meanwhile Sikhs For Justice (SFJ), a human rights advocacy group, said "this would also fuel anti Sikh sentiments in US when it is clear from the attack that anti-Sikh sentiments were budding in some quarters of American Society"
:rotfl:

Manpreet Singh, living in Denver Colorado and running his two stores there, when image of Sikhs were emerging as peace loving people with great human values in the US media after this attack but these protests with violent tinge were harming the community. "The few groups who have protested in Punjab against US government should ask the Punjab government and union government if they have been delivering justice to Sikhs," he said.
Indian Sikhs, like all Indians are too used to protesting against anything at a drop of a hat. After all, "our democracy", is far more "democratic" than the US democracy. We(Indians) allow all sorts protests, random or otherwise, causing untold misery to ordinary people, not to mention substantial damage to our economy and even in some cases property. Traffic jams, bandhs, stone throwing, road blockages, train stoppages, looting, arson, gheraos, lockups, lock-ins, lock-outs, absenses from work, physical assaults, verbal assaults, intimidation, threats, are all integral parts of our day to day culture, with the police and administration look on helplessly, and the judiciary even more paralysed.

Nothing in India is too absurd to protest against. Any tiny grievance by anyone, perceived or real justifies protests - even violent protests. On the other hand, nobody protests on important issues, major issues and consequential issues, where protests are not only justified but are required. No one in India protests against casteism (or shall we call it "reverse casteism"), lack of law and order, paralysis of the judiciary, consistent weakening of our armed forces through corruption; lack of will of the government and neglect by the government, minority communalism and massive conversions, and the biggest issue of them all - corruption. Look at poor Anna. He had to shut down his anti-corruption movement due to lack of people showing up.

So why blame these Indian Sikhs. At least they are not protesting establishment of an auto plant in Haryana. They are merely exercising their "democratic rights" burning American flags and perhaps an Indian or two, while they are at it. These Indian Sikhs should have a ready answer for their American counterparts who say that "while the whole country (America) is backing us up on this, it would give a very poor impression of Sikhs to Americans, if they protest the actions of a small number of lunatics". Indian Sikhs should respond by saying, "you American Sikhs didnt preach that to us, vis-a-vis India". Of course Indian Sikhs forget, India is fair game for protests, while Massa.........well, it is a different story.

And clearly, who can blame the American Sikhs from taking this opportunity to blame the Indian government for not dispensing justice to the Sikhs and defending the "Great" American Government, the kindly Uncle, that has "stood by" the Sikhs in their hour of trouble. And can the American Sikhs really be blamed if in the midst of this massive tragedy that they have suffered, they proclaim that "protest against India and you are a hero", "protest against Massa and you are a goon". After all these American Sikhs have suffered so much since 9/11.

And after reading the above article in Times of India, if any blasphemous thoughts start creeping into the minds of any Indian here at BRF or otherwise, that protests are all inversely proportional to the "fear of the danda" or the gun, as the case may be, then start reciting, "Ram Ram" and banish those unclean throughts out of your minds.
ramana
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by ramana »

I submit even these few folks in US taking umbrage agianst the protests in India too are minority and do not represent the views of of Sikhs in US.

As such I don't want vituperative anecdotes in this thread.
member_23692
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23692 »

ramana wrote:I submit even these few folks in US taking umbrage agianst the protests in India too are minority and do not represent the views of of Sikhs in US.

As such I don't want vituperative anecdotes in this thread.

Ramana,

I am not being vituperative at all, just wistful, sad and amused. And this is not an anecdote. This is a fully sourced, news article in the Times of India.

If your point is that you dont want any negativity on this thread, regardless of the evidence, because the purpose of this thread is really to condole and nothing else, you may have half a point.

But to invent apologies by groping in thin air and make up things like "folks in US taking umbrage against protests in India too are minority and do not represent the views of Sikhs in US" is well, very MMS-esque, if you will allow me to invent a new word (when you can invent a whole sentence and a fact, I can at least invent a word, cant I? :D ).

Can you quote a single American Sikh who has blamed long standing American government policies promoting racism for this ghastly incident ? Forget about saying out aloud, do you know of even a single American Sikh, who even thinks so ? Please dont get defensive, be true to yourself and give an honest answer.

And while I grant you, you may have a point that in a condolence thread, we should not bring up any negativity at all, how do you justify that in the middle of this massive human tragedy, at least some American Sikhs dont refrain from using the incident and protests against it, on top of that, to cast aspersions against India and the Indian government. If you noticed, many people expressed sentiments on this thread which alluded to Khalistani leanings of North American Sikhs, but I refrained from saying anything negative at all on this thread, out of respect for the dead and the community in general. I only posted, when I read the American Sikhs even using this tragedy to bash Indian government.

I felt that if the American Sikhs feel nothing is sacrosanct and no incident is beyond using as an opportunity for playing Khalistani politics, I can at least point it out in a mild and humorous way.

Look at the irony of all this, or shall we say the gaul. These American Sikhs, from a cross section of Gurudwaras across the US, some of them community and Gurudwara leaders are using the fact of the Indian government allowing demonstrations against Sikh killings in North America on Indian soil, to bash the Indian government. Hilarious :rotfl: With blood brothers like these, who needs the Pakis.
member_23629
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23629 »

lakshmikanth wrote:The blog post below (although unecessarily brings in Hindu==Sikh==Skinheads==violent peoples onleee stupidity) outlines how "Othering" has taken a toll on this (born-again) Sikh dude:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amit-s-ba ... 57195.html
I am not a religious person. I have spent a long enough period of my life studying religion and I understand, appreciate, laud, and deride the various roles it has and continues to play in both bridging and dividing not just people, but also places and thought.

And yet today, of all days, I am a Sikh. I want nothing more than to wear a turban and grow a beard and walk down the streets of DC -- certainly no Oak Creek -- but my no means any less uncomfortable with bearded, turbaned men, and declare to the barista and to the clerk that yes, I am the Other and no, I will not be afraid.
Read it all.
The dude should take his own advice about respecting the "Other" and stop calling Hinduism as "Brahminism", a derogatory word used by missionaries and communists to show as if Hinduism is a racket being run by wily Brahmins. He also seems to be big on "South Asia" talking about "South Asian customs" while talking about Indian traditions.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Prem »

Since the "sanki" media have taken control of the issue , i suspect they are going to use it to shield Islamist activites in USA. Congresman Weiner 's wifey issue , penetration of MB in Massa insitituions etc now going out limelight. Lots of public figures warning about IT are now vulnerable to be accused of being xenophobic. Islamists will take full advantage and extract every benefit from this tragedy.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by sanjaykumar »

I am not being vituperative at all, just wistful, sad and amused. And this is not an anecdote. This is a fully sourced, news article in the Times of India.


Wistful. Why? The thing is hilarious.
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by Cosmo_R »

"Thousands of mourners from around the world crowded into a gymnasium at Oak Creek High School in Oak Creek, Wis. to attend a wake and a memorial service for the six worshipers who were shot and killed on Sunday at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in suburban Milwaukee."

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0 ... ooting/?hp

"This week our friends and neighbors in the Sikh community have shown us the best way to respond is with love,” said Wisconsin Scott Walker, who was among the government officials, including Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., Sikh religious leaders and representatives of the victims’ families who spoke during the service."

Think this would have happened in Oirope or even in India? I don't recall MMS even deigning to visit Mumbai after 26/11.

Somewhere there are stats about how many ordinary Americans (and their ethnic composition) attended this wake.
member_23687
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Re: Shooting in Wisconsin Sikh Gurudwara

Post by member_23687 »

Cosmo_R wrote:"Thousands of mourners from around the world crowded into a gymnasium at Oak Creek High School in Oak Creek, Wis. to attend a wake and a memorial service for the six worshipers who were shot and killed on Sunday at the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin in suburban Milwaukee."

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0 ... ooting/?hp

"This week our friends and neighbors in the Sikh community have shown us the best way to respond is with love,” said Wisconsin Scott Walker, who was among the government officials, including Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr., Sikh religious leaders and representatives of the victims’ families who spoke during the service."

Think this would have happened in Oirope or even in India? I don't recall MMS even deigning to visit Mumbai after 26/11.

Somewhere there are stats about how many ordinary Americans (and their ethnic composition) attended this wake.

This is the same Scott Walker who showed so much love to his Democratic opponents and Unions, when they merely dared to politically oppose him, nowhere close to using the gun on him or his people. When it came to Sikh killing, Walker started quoting Martin Luther King in today's memorial. That is like Churchill quoting Gandhi.

And Bajwa Sab, how come the proud Sikhs, the pride of all martial races in India, have all of a sudden become adherents of non-violence and turning the other cheek, kind of Gandhians and are talking about love, like the flower children of the 60s. How does this rhetoric jive with your idea of Sikhs and Gurudwara arming themselves with weapons ? What you said is consistent with the Sikh ethos, as I understand it. What these guys are saying is.......what ? If we are not careful, we will hear the 60s hippie anthem "if you come to San Francisco, dont forget to put a flower in your hair" from the Gurudwaras rather than Gurubani.
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