Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Murugan » 06 Apr 2013 09:59

Yeh Maati Sabhi ki Kahani Kahegi

Circular Silos (storage spaces for grains) at Bhirrana dating back to 7380 BCE-6200 BCE
Latest research has put the date of the origin of the Indus Valley Civilisation at least 6,000 BCE, which contests the current theory that the settlements around the Indus began around 3750 BC. Ever since the excavations at Harappa and Mohenjo-daro in the early 1920s, the civilisation was considered almost as old as those of Egypt and Mesopotamia.

The finding was announced at the “International Conference on Harappan Archaeology”, recently organised by the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) in Chandigarh. Based on their research, BR Mani, ASI joint director general, and KN Dikshit, former ASI joint director general, said in a presentation: “The preliminary results of the data from early sites of the Indian subcontinent suggest that the Indian civilisation emerged in the 8th millennium BC in the Ghaggar-Hakra and Baluchistan area.”

“On the basis of radio-metric dates from Bhirrana (Haryana), the cultural remains of the pre- early Harappan horizon go back to 7380 BC to 6201 BC.”


Link: http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 54601.aspx

Author of the article comments
ASI being ASI, it did not even bother about publicity for either this conference at Chandigarh or the earlier one at Bengaluru. And to think of - these are being organised as part of 150 years celebrations of ASI. I even asked Director General why there is not enough publicity, he was nonchalant. "What if Delhi press does not know about it? It was amply covered in Chandigarh," he said. But I too did not find anything on the net.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 07 Apr 2013 00:42

In Delhi Billi Circle. ASI people are known as Chors for selling the ancient artifacts in Chor Bazar. They do not report the full finding to steal and sell the stuff.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 07 Apr 2013 03:30

Jhujar ji,

can you please take these accusations somewhere else!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 07 Apr 2013 09:26

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food ... ingle.html
The Mystery of Curry
It turns out we’ve been eating the spiced dish for a lot longer than anyone ever imagined.

But the original curry predates Europeans’ presence in India by about 4,000 years. Villagers living at the height of the Indus civilization used three key curry ingredients—ginger, garlic, and turmeric—in their cooking. This proto-curry, in fact, was eaten long before Arab, Chinese, Indian, and European traders plied the oceans in the past thousand years.

You may be wondering how on earth anyone can know what people were cooking 4,500 years ago. While the ancients left behind plenty of broken pots and mud-brick house foundations, they generally didn’t leave us their recipes. And foodstuffs, unlike pots, rapidly decay.

But thanks to technological advances, scientists can identify minute quantities of plant remains left behind by meals cooked thousands of years ago. It is no easy task; researchers must gather crumbling skeletons and find ancient dirty dishes before using powerful laboratory microscopes to pinpoint the ingredients of ancient meals. But the effort is paying off, in the form of evidence that curry may be far, far older than previously thought.

The Indus society began to flourish around the same time that the ancient Egyptians built their pyramids and Mesopotamians constructed the first great cities in today’s Iraq. Though less well known than its more famous cousins to the West, the Indus civilization boasted a half-dozen large and carefully planned urban centers with sophisticated water and sewage systems unmatched until Roman times. During its peak, between 2500 B.C. and 1800 B.C., the Indus dominated a land area larger than either ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia, covering much of today’s Pakistan and most of western India, as far west as the Iranian coast, as far north as Afghanistan, and as far east as the suburbs of New Delhi. But unlike the hieroglyphic and cuneiform writing of the Egyptian and Mesopotamian scribes, the strange symbols left behind by their Indus counterparts has not yet been deciphered by today’s scholars. Deciphering their food traditions has, until recently, been equally challenging.

Archaeologists have long known how to spot some ancient leftovers. The biggest breakthrough came in the 1960s, when excavators began to drop soil from their sites—particularly from places where food likely was prepared—onto mesh screens. The scientists then washed the earth away with water, leaving behind little bits of stone, animal bones, and tiny seeds of wheat, barley, millets, and beans. This flotation method allowed scientists to piece together a rough picture of an ancient diet. “But spices are absent in macro-botanical record,” says archaeologist Arunima Kashyap at Washington State University Vancouver, who, along with Steve Weber, made the recent proto-curry discovery.*

Working with other Indian and American archaeologists, the two applied new methods for pinpointing the elusive remains of spices that don’t show up in flotation tanks. Instead of analyzing dirt from Indus kitchens, they collected cooking pots from the ancient town of Farmana, a modest settlement that prospered in the late third millennium B.C. (Today, it’s a two-hour drive west of Delhi.) They also obtained human teeth from the nearby cemetery from the same era.

Back in their lab, Kashyap used what is known as starch grain analysis. Starch is the main way that plants store energy, and tiny amounts of it can remain long after the plant itself has deteriorated. If a plant was heated—cooked in one of the tandoori-style ovens often found at Indus sites, for example—then its tiny microscopic remains can be identified, since each plant species leaves its own specific molecular signature. To a layperson peering through a microscope, those remains look like random blobs. But to a careful researcher, they tell the story of what a cook dropped into the dinner pot 4,500 years ago.

Examining the human teeth and the residue from the cooking pots, Kashyap spotted the telltale signs of turmeric and ginger, two key ingredients, even today, of a typical curry. This marked the first time researchers had found unmistakable traces of the spices in the Indus civilization. Wanting to be sure, she and Weber took to their kitchens in Vancouver, Washington. “We got traditional recipes, cooked dishes, then examined the residues to see how the structures broke down,” Weber recalls. The results matched what they had unearthed in the field. “Then we knew we had the oldest record of ginger and turmeric.” Dated to between 2500 and 2200 B.C., the finds are the first time either spice has been identified in the Indus. They also found a carbonized clove of garlic, a plant that was used in this era by cooks from Egypt to China.

They found additional supporting evidence of ginger and turmeric use on ancient cow teeth unearthed in Harappa, one of the largest Indus cities, located in Pakistan west of the border with India. Why would cattle be eating curry-style dishes? Weber notes that in the region today, people often place leftovers outside their homes for wandering cows to munch on. There are numerous ancient Indus images of cattle on terra-cotta seals, suggesting that during Indus times, people may have regarded cows as sacred, as Hindus do today. The Harappan ruins also contain evidence of domesticated chickens, which were likely cooked in those tandoori-style ovens and eaten.

And what would a proto-curry be without a side of rice? Many archaeologists once thought that Indus peoples were restricted to a few grains like wheat and barley. But Cambridge University archaeologist Jennifer Bates, part of a joint Indian-U.K. team, has been examining the relative abundance of various crops at two village sites near today’s Masudpur, also west of Delhi. She found that villagers cultivated a wide array of crops, including rice, lentils, and mung beans. Finding significant quantities of rice was a particular surprise, since the grain was long thought to have arrived only at the end of the Indus civilization. In fact, inhabitants of one village appear to have preferred rice to wheat and barley (though millet was their favorite crop).

What does this mean for how we think about South Asian cuisine today? Thanks to Kashyap and Weber, we know that curry is not only among the world’s most popular dishes; it also may be the oldest continuously prepared cuisine on the planet. Vasant Shinde, an archaeologist at Pune University in India who directs the dig at Farmana, is delighted with the discovery. He says the find demonstrates that the Indus civilization pioneered not just good plumbing and well-planned cities, but one of the world's most loved cuisines. "I have been arguing for a long time that the [Indus people] are responsible for introducing most of the traditions in south Asia," he says, "and that includes tandoori chicken."

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby svinayak » 07 Apr 2013 09:42

Proto Curry now!
Indus people are different from Indians.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 07 Apr 2013 09:51

RajeshA wrote:
Rjashva/Arjasp and Somaka/Humayaka on the Indian side, Vishtaspa/Ishtashva on the Iranian side. RV 1:122:13 mentions Ishtâshva, the Sanskrit form of Iranian "Vishtâspa", well-known as Zarathustra's royal patron: "What can Ishtâshva, Ishtarashmi or any other princes do against those who enjoy the protection (of Mitra and Varuna)?"


From all I have read in reviews, Talageri has been very thorough in making his case, and in his book one would see him going into many many details!


Rukavat ke liye khed hai.

I am tired of pointing this out, but Talageri is a plain-and-simple quack. I honestly wish I could find a more charitable term, but I can't. He knows no Sanskrit, much less Vedic - and he is completely ignorant of the Vedic accent. Again, Ishtashva and Ishtarashmi are NOT names of people in the RV. Both words are accented on the second member of the compound, i.e. they are NOT bahuvrihi compounds that are used as personal names. Even if Sanskrit meanings are assumed to apply, "Ishtashva" simply means "choice horse", and not "he who has the choice horse" (which would be a personal name).

As I mentioned several times earlier, it is obvious that a whole host of RV sounds have been borrowed as names in historical times. Quite simply, that is all there is to it. The sounds of the RV are eternal constants. The fact that somebody in India or Iran or somewhere else decided to make names out of these sounds does not allow us to establish "antiquity". The Veda cannot be used historically, and those who cannot grasp this simple fact should stop abusing it.

Talageri's mistakes highlight the confusion that arises from blindly grasping at random words and tenuous connections found here and there. Throw in Elst and other extra-nationals in cahoots with Talageri, and one finds that the OIT camp has quacks of equal (or greater) caliber than the AIT camp. I do agree that one amusing way of "defeating the AIT" is to confront them with OIT quacks of even greater caliber. But it is all a lie. Be careful about that.

Carry on!

Best Wishes,

KL Dubey

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 07 Apr 2013 11:47

KLP Dubey ji,

good to see that you are still tuned in.

I'm aware of your reservations with regards to textual analysis of Rigveda from the perspective of history and geography.

I'll give it a try to formulate Talageri's effort on this, which may make it closer to such a view:

Talageri is comparing the proper nouns in Rigveda with those of proper nouns appearing in the Avesta and claiming that there is phonetic correspondence between them even though, one could say, these proper nouns in Avesta are a phonetic "corruption" of the corresponding sounds in the Vedas.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Dipanker » 07 Apr 2013 19:35

Acharya wrote:Proto Curry now!
Indus people are different from Indians.


May I suggest use of <sarcasm> tag for comments like these? Thanks!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Prem » 08 Apr 2013 08:52

Hidden History of the Human Race
Watch from 7.43 ,Sanskrit in Equdor,Columbia, Malta, Italy Etc then at 18.32


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 08 Apr 2013 10:19

Jhujar wrote:Hidden History of the Human Race
Watch from 7.43 ,Sanskrit in Equdor,Columbia, Malta, Italy Etc then at 18.32


Wonderful presentation.

@14:07 there is a presentation of cobra out of stone found in South America! There are no cobras in South America.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Virendra » 08 Apr 2013 13:22

@Dubey ji .. good to see you back.
---------------------

Not sure if this has been posted before.
Dr. Premendra Priyadarshi's presentation covering genetics and theories on origins of various lineages etc
www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8fVyBnNZk0

Regards,
Virendra

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Chandragupta » 08 Apr 2013 13:24

Can somebody help me with a list of links/sources (not blogs or forums) that debunk the AIT theory?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 08 Apr 2013 14:00

Chandragupta wrote:Can somebody help me with a list of links/sources (not blogs or forums) that debunk the AIT theory?


Chandragupta ji,

perhaps you can have a look through these lists. There are several books: [List 1] [List 2].

There is also a thread "References for OIT : Links, Books and multi media", in which venug ji was so kind to collect various useful resources on the subject.

Hopefully you will find what you are looking for!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Chandragupta » 08 Apr 2013 14:34

RajeshA wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:Can somebody help me with a list of links/sources (not blogs or forums) that debunk the AIT theory?


Chandragupta ji,

perhaps you can have a look through these lists. There are several books: [List 1] [List 2].

There is also a thread "References for OIT : Links, Books and multi media", in which venug ji was so kind to collect various useful resources on the subject.

Hopefully you will find what you are looking for!


Got it! Thanks Rajesh ji.

Here is the link to the original Gene mapping report from the American journal, for reference :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3234374/

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Virendra » 09 Apr 2013 15:20

Rajaram's latest series of articles :
East came West in three major waves - 45000, 10000 and 5000 YBP
http://folks.co.in/blog/2013/04/05/thir ... o-thought/

Regards,
Virendra

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 09 Apr 2013 16:09

Virendra wrote:Rajaram's latest series of articles :
East came West in three major waves - 45000, 10000 and 5000 YBP
http://folks.co.in/blog/2013/04/05/thir ... o-thought/



Sethna also found that the region of the Harappan cities (Western India) was called Meluhha by the Akkadians. This is a corruption of Malekha, Prakrit for the Sanskrit word Mleccha. This suggests that Indians referred to the Harappan region as ‘Mleccha Desha’. (This is suggested also by the Mahabharata.) Mleccha may not have had a negative connotation then.


1st Wave ~45,000 YBP: Mainly Indian Genes
2nd Wave ~10,000 YBP: Mainly Indian Language (along with Genes)
3rd Wave ~ 5,000 YBP: Mainly Indian Knowledge (along with Genes and Language)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RamaY » 09 Apr 2013 19:51

Sethna also found that the region of the Harappan cities (Western India) was called Meluhha by the Akkadians. This is a corruption of Malekha, Prakrit for the Sanskrit word Mleccha. This suggests that Indians referred to the Harappan region as ‘Mleccha Desha’. (This is suggested also by the Mahabharata.) Mleccha may not have had a negative connotation then.


Sanskrit word Transliteration Grammar English word Edit (Login)
म्लेच्छति { म्लेछ् } mlecchati { mlech } verb speak indistinctly edit
म्लेच्छयति { म्लेछ् } mlecchayati { mlech } verb caus. cause to speak indistinctly edit

Sanskrit word Transliteration Grammar English word Edit (Login)
म्लेच्छ mleccha m. barbarian edit
म्लेच्छ mleccha m. non-Aryan edit
म्लेच्छ mleccha m. ignorance of Sanskrit edit
म्लेच्छ mleccha m. man of an outcast race edit
म्लेच्छ mleccha m. person who does not speak Sanskrit edit
म्लेच्छ mleccha m. foreigner edit


Are they talking about the Indus Language???

RajeshA garu... found this in Sanskrit Dictionary... can we find some references to these?

शाबरोत्सव zAbarotsava m. particular festival of the mlecchas
अनार्यज anAryaja n. being a produce of the country of mlecchas or barbarians

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby ramana » 10 Apr 2013 02:55

Klaus, Now map the locations of Pisacha with the locations of mlechaa and see if there is a correspondence and the timing.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 10 Apr 2013 09:23

RajeshA wrote:KLP Dubey ji,

I'll give it a try to formulate Talageri's effort on this, which may make it closer to such a view:

Talageri is comparing the proper nouns in Rigveda with those of proper nouns appearing in the Avesta and claiming that there is phonetic correspondence between them even though, one could say, these proper nouns in Avesta are a phonetic "corruption" of the corresponding sounds in the Vedas.


You didn't read my post. The above idea is a grandiose one (and not the first time it has been proposed), but it falls flat because Talageri has no idea whether he is looking at a proper noun or a common noun in the Veda! Where is he getting the "proper nouns in the Rgveda" from ? Who decides whether it is a proper noun or not ? The rigorous Vedic syntax and grammar decides this, not Talageri's random fantasies and arbitrary decisions.

For example in this case, the accent on the word itself makes it blindingly obvious that it is NOT a proper noun but a common noun. For crying out loud! Talageri has never understood this. He is *reading* the Veda in a *translated* form from some dubious source. In fact, even the much-maligned translator Griffith has the good sense to not translate "ishtashva" and "ishtarashmi" as proper nouns/personal names. This issue of proper/common nouns is also discussed in detail in Purvamimamsa.

Again, unless one knows the Vedic sounds thoroughly, one can totally fool and mislead oneself and get wrapped up in a fantasy. Furthermore a producer of voluminous nonsense like Talageri will also be able to mislead and delude large numbers of people into thinking he has finally discovered "history in the Veda" !! The fact of the matter, as painstakingly pointed out in Mimamsa as well, is that people over the ages have been fond of taking on these Vedic sounds as personal names. That is all there is to it.

Now - as I have discussed with Shiv before - the fact that the Iranian and other versions of these sounds are corrupted is clear evidence of movement of the Vedic sounds from India to other places. But that does not allow one to start using these names to tell fake stories of Vedic history!

The Indian philosophers and Vedic experts were no fools. It is for a reason that they clearly separated Veda from Purana and Itihasa. Veda is eternal, impersonal sound with no specific or predetermined connection to the human race. Purana and Itihasa are mythology and history of the human race on this planet.

But Talageri, the genius that he is, is intent upon trying to prove they are all the same. People of his ilk do great damage to the Indian ethos.

I request you to desist from promoting quackery and fraud in the name of "defeating the AIT".

Best Wishes,

KL

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 10 Apr 2013 09:39

KLP Dubey wrote:
the fact that the Iranian and other versions of these sounds are corrupted is clear evidence of movement of the Vedic sounds from India to other places.

This fact unfortunately is
a. ignored by many Indians who swallow linguists AIT versions without questioning them
b. Not accepted or fudged by western AIT linguists

What has transpired is better described graphically, but let me try and do it here

AIT people start with PIE: Here is what they say
    PIE (moving east from west) ---> Proto-Indo-Iranian (Mitanni)---> splits into two: a. Avestan and b. Old Indic (Vedic Sanskrit)

What has actually happened is a westward movement of Old Indic (Vedic Sanskrit) with gradual corruption of sounds to create the Iranian languages.

My own personal reading/research leads me to the conclusion that Avestan is a fake, cooked up language. There is no evidence whatsoever that a language called Avestan ever existed. Avestan, as I have stated 2-3 times over the last few pages was simply conjured up (like PIE was conjured up) by "reconstruction" of fragments of language from surviving Parsi texts written in "Middle Persian" and a Sanskrit translation of a Middle Persian Parsi text. The so called Middle Persian language is less than 1000 years old and linguists have "reconstructed", cooked up and produced a 3000 year old "Avestan" language which they have then placed in 1000 BC as a sister language of Vedic Sanskrit. This represents generations of fudging.

My hypothesis is that the Zoroastrians started off with Vedic Sanskrit and it gradually changed to the Iranian languages including the characteristic "Iranian" corruptions of Sapta-Hapta. People who twist pronunciation in this way are still present in Gujarat today.
Last edited by shiv on 10 Apr 2013 09:47, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 10 Apr 2013 09:42

KLP Dubey wrote:But Talageri, the genius that he is, is intent upon trying to prove they are all the same. People of his ilk do great damage to the Indian ethos.

I request you to desist from promoting quackery and fraud in the name of "defeating the AIT".


KLP Dubey ji,

you are free to make your own comparative study as to how the Vedic sounds were imported into the Avesta and give a textual analysis of it based on that. Perhaps you may be able to bring some insight into some pattern as to how the sounds were corrupted and based on that what was the Avesta all about.

Obviously there are parallels between Avesta and the sounds of the Rigveda. These parallels need to be fleshed out.

One can't blame Talageri for trying if the rest of the Vedic scholar community has been completely silent on this matter including on the wider matter of comparative Indo-European linguistics.

I urge the Vedic scholars to venture out and conquer this field. Just knowing one's own little backyard does not help in conquering the world. If one does not do it, then others would end up conquering your backyard as the rest of the world would be in their hands, thus giving them a upper hand in your backyard as well.

Once the Vedic scholars have done this, they are free to criticize Talageri.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 10 Apr 2013 09:55

RajeshA wrote:One can't blame Talageri for trying if the rest of the Vedic scholar community has been completely silent on this matter including on the wider matter of comparative Indo-European linguistics.


Look, this is all gobbledygook and diversion. One can't blame him for "trying", but if he can't tell a common noun from a proper noun in Vedic, he needs to retract his fantasies and admit that he is incorrect. Now that would be real scholarship.

KL

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Pranav » 10 Apr 2013 10:00

KLP Dubey wrote:
RajeshA wrote:One can't blame Talageri for trying if the rest of the Vedic scholar community has been completely silent on this matter including on the wider matter of comparative Indo-European linguistics.


Look, this is all gobbledygook and diversion. One can't blame him for "trying", but if he can't tell a common noun from a proper noun in Vedic, he needs to retract his fantasies and admit that he is incorrect. Now that would be real scholarship.

KL


So you seem to have found two alleged grammar mistakes in Talageri's book? Have you submitted it to him for his response?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 10 Apr 2013 10:07

RamaY ji,

I believe 'Mleccha' was a term used for this area in the very remote times. It was probably the name of the region which attained a negative connotation as it was juxtaposed with Arya, those who were Vedic.

However the Indus Valley for which the word was used, was completely brought into the purview of the Vedic authority, but the term 'Mleccha' continued but it stopped being put in contrast with Arya.

The Mahabharata played out in pre-IVC time. As our Nilesh Oak ji says, it was in 5561 BCE. That is pre-IVC. Even if it was 3102 BCE, it was still during the early IVC.

The Mlecchas were also known as Malekhas and to Akkadians as Meluhhas. There is a possibility that the word Malik comes from Malekha/Meluhha. In fact the word Malik is an honorific even, which just goes to show how people of the IVC were looked at in West Asia - as lords.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 10 Apr 2013 10:15

KLP Dubey wrote:
RajeshA wrote:One can't blame Talageri for trying if the rest of the Vedic scholar community has been completely silent on this matter including on the wider matter of comparative Indo-European linguistics.


Look, this is all gobbledygook and diversion. One can't blame him for "trying", but if he can't tell a common noun from a proper noun in Vedic, he needs to retract his fantasies and admit that he is incorrect. Now that would be real scholarship.


KLP Dubey ji,

I think those words and sounds can be interpreted in many ways if one looks at them and Vedas historically. You however feel that Vedas should not be looked at that way. That is a legitimate view point. But then you as Vedic scholars need to go beyond simply stating your beliefs and establish that view of Rigveda - as ahistorical, eternal, apaurusheya, etc., and that too by dealing with the whole gamut of cultures and languages which came out of the Vedic sounds.

Until this is done, your voice would remain consigned to a very specific view on a very specific field. The need however is to have a unified view.

I am not contradicting you. Just stating what is needed to make your narrative as the dominant narrative. Until you do that, the others would simply say, "okay protest duly noted", and consigned to the dust bin and move on.

The impact of the Vedas on global language and culture needs to be cartographed from your viewpoint.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby KLP Dubey » 10 Apr 2013 10:31

Pranav wrote:So you seem to have found two alleged grammar mistakes in Talageri's book? Have you submitted it to him for his response?


I didn't "find" anything - although 50 pages ago I began to point out the whole load of nonsense being peddled by Talageri.

Why on earth would I run after people like Talageri ? If such persons are interested in learning Vedic grammar or at the very least how to tell a damn common noun from a proper noun, and in learning why no amount of fantasizing can produce "history" in the Veda (just as no amount of masturbation can produce a child), they may feel free to contact me.

KL

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 10 Apr 2013 11:02

KLP Dubey wrote:Look, this is all gobbledygook and diversion. One can't blame him for "trying", but if he can't tell a common noun from a proper noun in Vedic, he needs to retract his fantasies and admit that he is incorrect. Now that would be real scholarship.

KL


I had this doubt: how does one differentiate between common noun and proper noun in Sanskrit? Also, how does one differentiate between an adjective and noun in sanskrit?

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Vedic Maths
[youtube]76en4Iwq7rc&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

How knowledge of maths travelled from east to west.
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Sulbha Sutra basic intro


Indian maths(malayalam and english)


Sanskrit Mathematical Terms:
maths - ganitha
geometry - rekha ganitha
trigonometry - trikona-maapan-vidya
algebra - bhija-ganitha
arithmetic - anka-ganitha, paati-ganitha
calculus - chalana-kalana

add - yojana, sankalana, yoga
subtract - viyojana, vyavakalana, viyoga,
multiply - gunam
divide - bhaagam, haaram, bhajaam
Squaring (algebraic) - vargam
Square root - varga mulam, karani
cube - shana
cube root - shana mula, shana padh

quotient - avapt,
divisor - bhajakah, haarak, bhaagakah
dividend - harya
remainder - shesha, uchchesha
muliplicand - gunya
factor - karaka
fraction - bhinna
decimal - dashamika
decimal fraction - dashamika bhinna

numerator - bhaga, bhoga, lava, vibhaga
denominator - hara, chedha, amsha

reduction of fractions to a common denominator - jaathi, bhaaga jaathi, prabhaaga jaathi

line (geometrical) - rekha
circle - vrutam, mandala
round - vartula
triangle - trikona
square (geometrical) - chaturashra
side - karani
rectangle - ayatha
Diagonal (geometrical) - karna, vikarna
Angle - kona,

radius - ara, madhyakarna, ardhakarna
diameter - vyasa, vistara, karna
circumference - paridhi, kaksha,
center of circle - kendra-bindu
center - kendra, madhya
area - kshetra
bisector - ardhana

differential - avakal
integral - anukala

sine - bahujya, jya
cosine - kotijya
tan - sparshjya
secant - ?
cosecant - vyujya, vyutkrama-jya
cotan - koti-sparshi, kosparshajya
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Sulbha Sutras: Applied Geometry
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X-posting from Bharatiya Thread:
My thoughts on Sanskrit-Prakrit:
Sanskrit is the refined or standard form, while Prakrit is the natural way that people talk. Each person talks in a specific manner(introducing some corruptions which become his signature). Generally, these corruptions are subtle and not noticeable.

But, certain corruptions become more pronounced and acquire a new form. Such ones are called Prakrit. Prakrit is rustic Sanskrit. Actually, Prakrit is the way general people generally spoke Sanskrit. I think all people spoke Prakrit in their daily life.

This phenomenon, I think, can be seen any language. People like to speak in their specific lingo even if they know the standard version. For example, no one speaks chaste hindi, or telugu or english in their day-to-day lives. They speak it in their particular local lingo, even if they know the standard version.

Sanskrit is the refined form of Prakrit. That means Sanskrit preserves the original sounds/pronunciations of the words intact. While, the Prakrits were allowed to transform and evolve. Just as Sanskrit preserves the sound/pronunciations, the Vedas preserve not only the original sounds/pronunciations, but also the original intonations(i.e. Svara).

My understanding is that the whole humanity is speaking a single language. The standard version of this language is Sanskrit, which preserves the original pronunciation/sounds of the words mostly. The various human 'languages' are nothing more than various Prakrits i.e. various dialects/lingos(with their unique corruptions/variations) of the standard(Sanskrit).

Which existed first: Sanskrit or Prakrit?
I will give an analogy: Sanskrit is like rain water and Prakrit is like ponds and lakes. The water from ponds and lakes is evaporated by Sun and transforms in rain water. The same rain water fill the ponds and lakes. Which came first rain or water in ponds?

Similarly, the Sanskrit and Prakrit are inter-related. The Prakrit is based on the natural pronunciations of the people. While, Sanskrit is the standard form. Both, co-exist.

I think to understand the languages, one has to first identify the sound corruptions that are possible.

johneeG wrote:The words for 'Yes' in different languages:

Hindi(Indian) -> Han
Japanese -> Hai
Cantonese(Chinese) -> Hai
French -> Oui
English -> Aye
Telugu(Indian) -> Sye
Mandarin(Chinese) -> Shi
Latin -> Sic
Italina -> Si
German -> Ja

All of these seem to be related to each other phonologically. Here, Ya, Ja, Aa, Ha, and Sa are seen. It seems Sa is the primary sound which gets corrupted into Ha. Then, Ha gets corrupted into Ya or Aa. Ya can further get corrupted into Ja.

The exceptions seem to be:
Hebrew -> Ken
Russian -> Da

EDIT: Or maybe, the Da(russian) is not an exception. Ha may have become Da.

Some general corruptions in the sounds are:
Sa -> Sha Eg: Sama -> Shama
Sha -> Sa Eg: Shyama -> Syama, Ashashin -> Assassin
Ba -> Va Eg: Jambu -> Jamvu
Va -> Ba Eg: Vedi -> Bedi, Vanga -> Banga
Ra -> La Eg: Rama -> Lama
Pa -> Fa Eg: Hapta -> Hafta
Fa -> Pa Eg: Soft -> Sopt
Tha -> Ta Eg: Thara -> Tara
Ta -> Tha
Ya -> Aa Eg: Shyama -> Shama
Ya -> Ja Eg: Yehova -> Jehova, Yeshu -> Jeshu
Ya -> Ha
Ha -> Ya
Ha -> Aa Eg: Hashashin -> Ashashin
Sa -> Ha Eg: Sapta -> Hapta
Da -> Dha
Dha -> Da
Ma -> Na
Na -> Ma
Cha -> Ka
Any half consonant followed by ra -> full consonant followed by ra. Eg: Free -> Feree.
EDIT:
Tha -> Dha Eg: Thatha -> Dhadha
Pa -> Ba Eg: Papa -> Baba
Za -> Sha
Za -> Sa
Za -> Ja Eg: Hazar -> Hajar

Probable corruptions:
Ra -> Da
Va -> Aa
Va -> Ya
Aa -> Ha
Aa -> Ya
Ka -> Cha
Sha -> Za

Link to Original Post

Some More Possible corruptions:
Da -> Ra
Ka -> Ga
Ga -> Cha

Once the possible sound corruptions are identified, then two ways are possible:
a) Start from Sanskrit and introduce corruptions into the Sanskrit words and match them with the words in Prakrit(all the human languages).
b) Start from Prakrit(all the human languages) and back trace to Sanskrit by deducting corruptions.

To do that, one has to first identify the root words in various Prakrits(all the human languages). For example, take a english dictionary, identify all the root words. Then deduct the sound corruption from those root words to either back trace to Sanskrit or introduce sound corruptions in various sanskrit words and see which ones match with the english root words. One can write some sort of software program for such purpose.

Some examples:
Pithr(Sanskrit-Father)->Pitha(Hindi-Father)->Padre(Italian/Spanish-Father)->Pater(Latin-Father)->Pedda(Telugu-Elder)->Pedar(Persian-Father)->Pere(French-Father)
Pater(Latin-Father)->Pedar(Persian-Father)->Father(English-Father)
Pater(Latin-Father)->Bater->Vater(German-Father)->Validi(Arabic->Father)

Arya(Sanskrit-Respected)->Ayya(Telugu-Father)->Appa(Tamil-Father)->Abba(Arabic/Korean-Father)
Appa(Tamil-Father)->Papa->Pai(Portuguese-Father)
Papa(Pappa)->Bappa(Marathi-Father)->Bapu->Baba(Chinese-Father)

Thatha(Sanskrit-Father)->Thatha(Telugu-Grand Father)->O Tats(Russian-Father)
Thatha(Telugu-Grand Father)->Dhadha(Hindi-Grand Father)->Dada(Father).

Amba(Sanskrit-Mother)->Amma(Telugu/Tamil-Mother)->Ammi(Arabic-Mother)->Mama(many langs- Mother)->Ma(Hindi-Mother)->Eom Ma(Korean-Mother)

Mathr(Sanskrit-Mother)-Matha(Hindi-Mother)->Madar(Persian-Mother)->Mother(English-Mother)

Sutha(Sanskrit-Son)->Zadha(Persian-Son).

Duhitha(Sanskrit-Daughter)->Daughter(English-Daughter)->Doxtar(Persian-Daughter).

Back tracing method:
In Telugu,
Koduku(Son), Kodelu(Daugher-in-law), Kode laga(Calf), ...etc have the root word Kode. This root word Kode may be related to Kumara(Young one) or Kishora(Adolescent).

Kode(Telugu-Young one)->Kurra(Telugu-Young one)->Kumara(Sanskrit-Young one).

Similarly, the word Nalla(Telugu-Black)->Nila(Sanskrit-Blue/Black).

Link to original post

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johneeG wrote:Image

Red part is prakrit. And white part is Sanskrit. Sanskrit is nothing but systematized prakrit. or in other words Prakrit is nothing but rustic Sanskrit.

The smaller circles are various languages. The way I am imagining is that they were earlier dialects. And as the time passed by, the dialect became distinct from other dialects and was accepted as the new language. Imagine, in the above picture, a small dot growing into a small circle and then growing bigger and bigger with time. As the circle becomes more predominant, it is accepted as a separate language. Similarly, the reverse process shrinking is also possible. That means a language slowly loses its predominance and becomes a dialect of another language(that is being absorbed by another language). This process of growing and shrinking is inherent in all languages except Sanskrit.

The best example would be Telugu and Kannada. Both are very similar to the extent that one can be considered a dialect of another. Over a period, they 'became' independent languages.

I think there is no distinction of Dravidian-Aryan in the above model. Of course, it is possible that a particular language developed solely in the Prakrit part and was uninfluenced by the Sanskrit. But it is not probable. (I am right now of the view that most, if not all, words in all languages of the world can be traced back to Sanskrit. But, one must admit that there is a possibility of certain words being created that were unrelated to Sanskrit. When I wrote this particular post, I thought in terms of two streams i.e. sanskrit and prakrit. Now, I think there is only one source: sanskrit. Prakrits(various languages of the world) are simply corruptions of the sanskrit. Because Sanskrit is a standard version, it remained one. But, since, prakrits were based on natural pronunciations, it continued to evolve. And as it evolved, it got divided into dialects. And these dialects further evolved(i.e. introduced corruptions) and are considered to be distinct languages) )

Please note that I am talking only about 'Spoken Languages' and not about Scripts. Scripts seem to be a totally different beast.


Corruptions need not always be introduced only due to the lack of pronunciation skills. Though lack of pronunciation skills is the most direct reason for introduction of corruption into pronunciation of a sound, it may not be the only reason. One other reason for introducing phonological corruption is 'imformality'. People try to be imformal or friendly by distorting the actual word or sound. For example, people invent pet names by distorting the original name. Infact, this explains why sanskrit was used as a intellectual language, while prakrit(imformal sanskrit) was used for day to day interactions. The attempt to imformalize the language can be one of the important reasons for introducing phonological corruptions.

Of course, the other important reason for introduction of phonological corruptions is the lack of pronunciation skills.

johneeG
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 10 Apr 2013 11:07

Somehow it is often overlooked that there is an obscure verb ār – *āryati ‘to praise’ which may be connected to ṛ. This verb has been poorly attested only tree times in RV as 3 P, pl. āryanti (RV 8.016.06 & RV 10.048.03 (twice)) but there is also a prominent noun arka ‘praise, hymn, song; one who praises, a singer’ which may be related here. The final -ka is a diminutive/comparative suffix (much used in forming adjectives; it may also be added to nouns to express diminution, deterioration, or similarity e.g. putraka, a little son; aśvaka, a bad horse or like a horse) having clear parallels in Slavonic ( e.g. Rus. znat‘ ‘to know’ > znajka ‘one who knows’ etc.). Interestingly, in Rus. dialects there is a verb arkat’ ‘to cry, speak loudly’. From this perspective ārya could have originally meant simply ‘the praised one = good respectable person’ being synonymous to śravya ‘worth hearing, praiseworthy’ (cp. also śravaḥ ‘glory, fame, loud praise’ and its Rus cognate slava ‘fame, glory’).

In Rig Veda ārya is met about 30 times.


Link

It seems the word dravida is not even found in Vedas.

So, the word dravida is only found in Puranas and Ithihaasas.

X-posting from AP thread:
I am posting some references to 'Andhras' in ancient texts:

पाण्ड्यां द्रविडाम् चैव सहितां चोड्रकेरलैः |
अन्ध्राम् तलवनां चैव कलिङ्गान् ओष्ट्रकर्णिकान् ||

48 pāṇḍyāṃś ca dravidāṃś caiva sahitāṃś codra keralaiḥ
andhrāṃs talavanāṃś caiva kaliṅgān oṣṭra karṇikān


- Mahabharata, Sabha Parva, 28th Adhyaya(Chapter), 47th shloka. (Sahadeva’s southern campaign before Rajasuja Yagya) Link

Translation:
The son of Pandu also conquered the town of Sanjayanti and the country of the Pashandas and the Karahatakas by means of his messengers alone, and made all of them pay tributes to him. The hero brought under his subjection and exacted tributes from the Paundrayas and the Dravidas along with the Udrakeralas and the Andhras and the Talavanas, the Kalingas and the Ushtrakarnikas, and also the delightful city of Atavi and that of the Yavanas.
Link

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पौण्ड्रको वासुदेवः च वङ्गः कलिङ्गकः तथा |
आकर्षः कुन्तलः चैव वानवस्य अन्ध्रकाः तथा || 11
द्रविडाः सिंहलाः चैव राज कश्मीरकः तथा |
कुन्तिभोजो महातेजाः सुह्यः च सुमहाबलः || 12

11 pauṇḍrako vāsudevaś ca vaṅgaḥ kāliṅgakas tathā
ākarṣaḥ kuntalaś caiva vānavāsya āndhrakās tathā
12 draviḍāḥ siṃhalāś caiva rājā kāśmīrakas tathā
kuntibhojo mahātejāḥ suhmaś ca sumahābalaḥ

- Mahabharata, Sabha Parva, 31st Adhyaya(Chapter), 11th & 12th shloka. (List of people attending Rajasuja Yagya) Link

Translation:
and Vasudeva the king of the Paundrayas, and the kings of Vanga and Kalinga; and Akastha and Kuntala and the kings of the Malavas and the Andhrakas; and the Dravidas and the Singhalas and the king of Kashmira, and king Kuntibhoja of great energy
Link

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पुरोगमाः च ते सन्तु द्रविडाः सह कुन्तलैः |
अन्ध्राः तलचराः चैव चूचुपा वेणुपाः तथा || 25

25 purogamāś ca te santu draviḍāḥ saha kuntalaiḥ
āndhrās tālacarāś caiva cūcupā veṇupās tathā

- Mahabharata, Udyoga Parva, 138th Adhyaya(Chapter), 25th shloka. (Sri Krishna luring Karna to join Pandava’s side after the Duryodhana declined the peace offer) Link

Translation:
Let the Dravidas, with the Kuntalas, the Andhras, and the Talacharas, and the Shuchupas, and the Venupas, all walk before thee. Let chanters and panegyrists praise thee with innumerable laudatory hymns.
Link

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प्राच्यैः प्रतीच्यैरथ दक्षिणत्यैरुदीच्यकम्बोजशकैः खशैः च |
शाल्वैः समत्स्यैः कुरुमध्यदेशैः मलेच्छैः पुलिन्दैः द्रविडा-अन्ध्रा-काञ्च्यैः ||20

20 prācyaiḥ pratīcyair atha dākṣiṇātyair; udīcyakāmbojaśakaiḥ khaśaiś ca
śālvaiḥ samatsyaiḥ kurumadhyadeśair; mlecchaiḥ pulindair draviḍā andhra kāñcyaiḥ
- Mahabharata, Udyoga Parva, 158th Adhyaya(Chapter), 20th shloka. (Shakuni’s son’s message to Pandavas describing the army) Link

Translation:
the strength of this assembled host of monarchs, which resembleth the very celestial host, and which is protected by these kings like the gods protecting theirs in heaven, and which, swarming with the kings of the East, West, South, and North, with Kamvojas, Sakas, Khasas, Salwas, Matsyas, Kurus of the middle country, Mlechchhas, Pulindas, Dravidas, Andhras, and Kanchis, indeed, with many nations, all addressed for battle, is uncrossable like the swollen tide of Ganga?
Link

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37 अत ऊर्ध्वं जनपदान निबॊध गदतॊ मम
तत्रेमे कुरुपाञ्चालाः शाल्व माद्रेय जाङ्गलाः
38 शूरसेनाः कलिङ्गाश च बॊधा मौकास तथैव च
मत्स्याः सुकुट्यः सौबल्याः कुन्तलाः काशिकॊशलाः
39 चेदिवत्साः करूषाश च भॊजाः सिन्धुपुलिन्दकाः
उत्तमौजा दशार्णाश च मेकलाश चॊत्कलैः सह
40 पाञ्चालाः कौशिकाश चैव एकपृष्ठा युगंधराः
सौधा मद्रा भुजिङ्गाश च काशयॊ अपरकाशयः
41 जठराः कुक्कुशाश चैव सुदाशार्णाश च भारत
कुन्तयॊ अवन्तयश चैव तथैवापरकुन्तयः
42 गॊविन्दा मन्दकाः षण्डा विदर्भानूपवासिकाः
अश्मकाः पांसुराष्ट्राश च गॊप राष्ट्राः पनीतकाः
43 आदि राष्ट्राः सुकुट्टाश च बलिराष्ट्रं च केवलम
वानरास्याः प्रवाहाश च वक्रा वक्रभयाः शकाः
44 विदेहका मागधाश च सुह्माश च विजयास तथा
अङ्गा वङ्गाः कलिङ्गाश च यकृल लॊमान एव च
45 मल्लाः सुदेष्णाः प्राहूतास तथा माहिषकार्षिकाः
वाहीका वाटधानाश च आभीराः कालतॊयकाः
46 अपरन्ध्राश च शूद्राश च पह्लवाश चर्म खण्डिकाः
अटवी शबराश चैव मरु भौमाश च मारिष
47 उपावृश्चानुपावृश्च सुराष्ट्राः केकयास तथा
कुट्टापरान्ता दवैधेयाः काक्षाः सामुद्र निष्कुटाः
48 अन्ध्राश च बहवॊ राजन्न अन्तर्गिर्यास तथैव च
बहिर्गिर्य आङ्गमलदा मागधा मानवर्जकाः
49 मह्युत्तराः प्रावृषेया भार्गवाश च जनाधिप
पुण्ड्रा भार्गाः किराताश च सुदॊष्णाः प्रमुदास तथा
50 शका निषादा निषधास तथैवानर्तनैरृताः
दुगूलाः परतिमत्स्याश च कुशलाः कुनटास तथा
51 तीरग्राहास्तर तॊया राजिका रम्यका गणाः
तिलकाः पारसीकाश च मधुमन्तः प्रकुत्सकाः
52 काश्मीराः सिन्धुसौवीरा गान्धारा दर्शकास तथा
अभीसारा कुलूताश च शौवला बाह्लिकास तथा
53 दर्वीकाः सकचा दर्वा वातजाम रथॊरगाः
बहु वाद्याश च कौरव्य सुदामानः सुमल्लिकाः
54 वध्राः करीषकाश चापि कुलिन्दॊपत्यकास तथा
वनायवॊ दशा पार्श्वा रॊमाणः कुश बिन्दवः
55 कच्छा गॊपाल कच्छाश च लाङ्गलाः प्रवल्लकाः
किराता बर्बराः सिद्धा विदेहास ताम्रलिङ्गकाः
56 ओष्ट्राः पुण्ड्राः स सैरन्ध्राः पार्वतीयाश च मारिष
अथापरे जनपदा दक्षिणा भरतर्षभ
57 द्रविडाः केरलाः प्रच्या भूषिका वनवासिनः
उन्नत्यका माहिषका विकल्पा मूषकास तथा
58 कर्णिकाः कुन्तिकाश चैव सौब्धिदा नलकालकाः
कौकुट्टकास तथा चॊलाः कॊङ्कणा मालवाणकाः
59 समङ्गाः कॊपनाश चैव कुकुराङ्गद मारिषाः
धवजिन्य उत्सव संकेतास त्रिगर्ताः सर्वसेनयः
60 त्र्यङ्गाः केकरकाः परॊष्ठाः परसंचरकास तथा
तथैव विन्ध्यपुलकाः पुलिन्दाः कल्कलैः सह
61 मालका मल्लकाश चैव तथैवापरवर्तकाः
कुलिन्दाः कुलकाश चैव करण्ठाः कुरकास तथा
62 मूषका सतनबालाश च सतियः पत्तिपञ्जकाः
आदिदायाः सिरालाश च सतूबका सतनपास तथा
63 हृषीविदर्भाः कान्तीकास तङ्गणाः परतङ्गणाः
उत्तराश चापरे म्लेच्छा जना भरतसत्तम
64 यवनाश च स काम्बॊजा दारुणा म्लेच्छ जातयः
सक्षद्द्रुहः कुन्तलाश च हूणाः पारतकैः सह
65 तथैव मरधाश चीनास तथैव दश मालिकाः
कषत्रियॊपनिवेशाश च वैश्यशूद्र कुलानि च
66 शूद्राभीराथ दरदाः काश्मीराः पशुभिः सह
खशिकाश च तुखाराश च पल्लवा गिरिगह्वराः
67 आत्रेयाः स भरद्वाजास तथैव सतनयॊषिकाः
औपकाश च कलिङ्गाश च किरातानां च जातयः
68 तामरा हंसमार्गाश च तथैव करभञ्जकाः
उद्देश मात्रेण मया देशाः संकीर्तिताः प्रभॊ
69 यथा गुणबलं चापि त्रिवर्गस्य महाफलम
दुह्येद धेनुः कामधुक च भूमिः सम्यग अनुष्ठिता
70 तस्यां गृध्यन्ति राजानः शूरा धर्मार्थकॊविदाः
ते तयजन्त्य आहवे पराणान रसा गृद्धास तरस्विनः

37 ata ūrdhvaṃ janapadān nibodha gadato mama
tatreme kurupāñcālāḥ śālva mādreya jāṅgalāḥ
38 śūrasenāḥ kaliṅgāś ca bodhā maukās tathaiva ca
matsyāḥ sukuṭyaḥ saubalyāḥ kuntalāḥ kāśikośalāḥ
39 cedivatsāḥ karūṣāś ca bhojāḥ sindhupulindakāḥ
uttamaujā daśārṇāś ca mekalāś cotkalaiḥ saha
40 pāñcālāḥ kauśikāś caiva ekapṛṣṭhā yugaṃ dharāḥ
saudhā madrā bhujiṅgāś ca kāśayo 'parakāśayaḥ
41 jaṭharāḥ kukkuśāś caiva sudāśārṇāś ca bhārata
kuntayo 'vantayaś caiva tathaivāparakuntayaḥ
42 govindā mandakāḥ ṣaṇḍā vidarbhānūpavāsikāḥ
aśmakāḥ pāṃsurāṣṭrāś ca gopa rāṣṭrāḥ panītakāḥ
43 ādi rāṣṭrāḥ sukuṭṭāś ca balirāṣṭraṃ ca kevalam
vānarāsyāḥ pravāhāś ca vakrā vakrabhayāḥ śakāḥ
44 videhakā māgadhāś ca suhmāś ca vijayās tathā
aṅgā vaṅgāḥ kaliṅgāś ca yakṛl lomāna eva ca
45 mallāḥ sudeṣṇāḥ prāhūtās tathā māhiṣa kārṣikāḥ
vāhīkā vāṭadhānāś ca ābhīrāḥ kālatoyakāḥ
46 aparandhrāś ca śūdrāś ca pahlavāś carma khaṇḍikāḥ
aṭavī śabarāś caiva maru bhaumāś ca māriṣa
47 upāvṛścānupāvṛśca surāṣṭrāḥ kekayās tathā
kuṭṭāparāntā dvaidheyāḥ kākṣāḥ sāmudra niṣkuṭāḥ
48 andhrāś ca bahavo rājann antargiryās tathaiva ca
bahirgiry āṅgamaladā māgadhā mānavarjakāḥ
49 mahyuttarāḥ prāvṛṣeyā bhārgavāś ca janādhipa
puṇḍrā bhārgāḥ kirātāś ca sudoṣṇāḥ pramudās tathā
50 śakā niṣādā niṣadhās tathaivānartanairṛtāḥ
dugūlāḥ pratimatsyāś ca kuśalāḥ kunaṭās tathā
51 tīragrāhāstara toyā rājikā ramyakā gaṇāḥ
tilakāḥ pārasīkāś ca madhumantaḥ prakutsakāḥ
52 kāśmīrāḥ sindhusauvīrā gāndhārā darśakās tathā
abhīsārā kulūtāś ca śauvalā bāhlikās tathā
53 darvīkāḥ sakacā darvā vātajāma rathoragāḥ
bahu vādyāś ca kauravya sudāmānaḥ sumallikāḥ
54 vadhrāḥ karīṣakāś cāpi kulindopatyakās tathā
vanāyavo daśā pārśvā romāṇaḥ kuśa bindavaḥ
55 kacchā gopāla kacchāś ca lāṅgalāḥ paravallakāḥ
kirātā barbarāḥ siddhā videhās tāmraliṅgakāḥ
56 oṣṭrāḥ puṇḍrāḥ sa sairandhrāḥ pārvatīyāś ca māriṣa
athāpare janapadā dakṣiṇā bharatarṣabha
57 draviḍāḥ keralāḥ prācyā bhūṣikā vanavāsinaḥ
unnatyakā māhiṣakā vikalpā mūṣakās tathā
58 karṇikāḥ kuntikāś caiva saubdhidā nalakālakāḥ
kaukuṭṭakās tathā colāḥ koṅkaṇā mālavāṇakāḥ
59 samaṅgāḥ kopanāś caiva kukurāṅgada māriṣāḥ
dhvajiny utsava saṃketās trivargāḥ sarvasenayaḥ
60 tryaṅgāḥ kekarakāḥ proṣṭhāḥ parasaṃcarakās tathā
tathaiva vindhyapulakāḥ pulindāḥ kalkalaiḥ saha
61 mālakā mallakāś caiva tathaivāparavartakāḥ
kulindāḥ kulakāś caiva karaṇṭhāḥ kurakās tathā
62 mūṣakā stanabālāś ca satiyaḥ pattipañjakāḥ
ādidāyāḥ sirālāś ca stūbakā stanapās tathā
63 hṛṣīvidarbhāḥ kāntīkās taṅgaṇāḥ parataṅgaṇāḥ
uttarāś cāpare mlecchā janā bharatasattama
64 yavanāś ca sa kāmbojā dāruṇā mleccha jātayaḥ
sakṣaddruhaḥ kuntalāś ca hūṇāḥ pāratakaiḥ saha
65 tathaiva maradhāś cīnās tathaiva daśa mālikāḥ
kṣatriyopaniveśāś ca vaiśyaśūdra kulāni ca
66 śūdrābhīrātha daradāḥ kāśmīrāḥ paśubhiḥ saha
khaśikāś ca tukhārāś ca pallavā girigahvarāḥ
67 ātreyāḥ sa bharadvājās tathaiva stanayoṣikāḥ
aupakāś ca kaliṅgāś ca kirātānāṃ ca jātayaḥ
68 tāmarā haṃsamārgāś ca tathaiva karabhañjakāḥ
uddeśa mātreṇa mayā deśāḥ saṃkīrtitāḥ prabho
69 yathā guṇabalaṃ cāpi trivargasya mahāphalam
duhyed dhenuḥ kāmadhuk ca bhūmiḥ samyag anuṣṭhitā
70 tasyāṃ gṛdhyanti rājānaḥ śūrā dharmārthakovidāḥ
te tyajanty āhave prāṇān rasā gṛddhās tarasvinaḥ

- Mahabharata, Bhishma Parva, 10th Adhyaya(Chapter), (Vidura’s description of ‘Janapadas’ of ‘Bharatavarsha’) Link

Translation:
"After this, listen to the names of the provinces as I mention them. They are the Kuru-Panchalas, the Salwas, the Madreyas, the Jangalas, the Surasena, the Kalingas, the Vodhas, the Malas, the Matsyas, the Sauvalyas, the Kuntalas, the Kasi-kosalas, the Chedis, the Karushas, the Bhojas, the Sindhus, the Pulindakas, the Uttamas, the Dasarnas, the Mekalas, the Utkalas; the Panchalas, the Kausijas, the Nikarprishthas, Dhurandharas; the Sodhas, the Madrabhujingas, the Kasis, and the further-Kasis; the Jatharas, the Kukuras, O Bharata; the Kuntis, the Avantis, and the further-Kuntis; the Gomantas, the Mandakas, the Shandas, the Vidarbhas, the Rupavahikas; the Aswakas, the Pansurashtras, the Goparashtras, and the Karityas; the Adhirjayas, the Kuladyas, the Mallarashtras, the Keralas, the Varatrasyas, the Apavahas, the Chakras, the Vakratapas, the Sakas; the Videhas, the Magadhas, the Swakshas, the Malayas, the Vijayas, the Angas, the Vangas, the Kalingas, the Yakrillomans; the Mallas, the Suddellas, the Pranradas, the Mahikas, the Sasikas; the Valhikas, the Vatadhanas, the Abhiras, the Kalajoshakas; the Aparantas, the Parantas, the Pahnabhas, the Charmamandalas; the Atavisikharas, the Mahabhutas, O sire; the Upavrittas, the Anupavrittas, the Surashatras, Kekayas; the Kutas, the Maheyas, the Kakshas, the Samudranishkutas; the Andhras, and, O king, many hilly tribes, and many tribes residing on lands laying at the foot of the hills, and the Angamalajas, and the Manavanjakas; the Pravisheyas, and the Bhargavas, O king; the Pundras, the Bhargas, the Kiratas, the Sudeshnas, and the Yamunas, the Sakas, the Nishadhas, the Anartas, the Nairitas, the Durgalas, the Pratimasyas, the Kuntalas, and the Kusalas; the Tiragrahas, the Ijakas, the Kanyakagunas, the Tilabharas, the Samiras, the Madhumattas, the Sukandakas; the Kasmiras, the Sindhusauviras, the Gandharvas, and the Darsakas; the Abhisaras, the Utulas, the Saivalas, and the Valhikas; the Darvis, the Vanavadarvas, the Vatagas, the Amarathas, and the Uragas; the Vahuvadhas, the Kauravyas, the Sudamanas, the Sumalikas; the Vadhras, the Karishakas, the Kalindas, and the Upatyakas; the Vatayanas, the Romanas, and the Kusavindas; the Kacchas, the Gopalkacchas, the Kuruvarnakas; the Kiratas, the Varvasas, the Siddhas, the Vaidehas, and the Tamraliptas; the Aundras, the Paundras, the Saisikatas, and the Parvatiyas, O sire.

"'There are other kingdoms, O bull of Bharata's race, in the south. They are the Dravidas, the Keralas, the Prachyas, the Mushikas, and the Vanavashikas; the Karanatakas, the Mahishakas, the Vikalpas, and also the Mushakas; the Jhillikas, the Kuntalas, the Saunridas, and the Nalakananas; the Kankutakas, the Cholas, and the Malavayakas; the Samangas, the Kanakas, the Kukkuras, and the Angara-marishas; the Samangas, the Karakas, the Kukuras, the Angaras, the Marishas: the Dhwajinis, the Utsavas, the Sanketas, the Trigartas, and the Salwasena; the Vakas, the Kokarakas, the Pashtris, and the Lamavegavasas; the Vindhyachulakas, the Pulindas, and the Valkalas; the Malavas, the Vallavas, the further-Vallavas, the Kulindas, the Kalavas, the Kuntaukas, and the Karatas; the Mrishakas, the Tanavalas, the Saniyas; the Alidas, the Pasivatas, the Tanayas, and the Sulanyas; the Rishikas, the Vidarbhas, the Kakas, the Tanganas, and the further-Tanganas. Among the tribes of the north are the Mlecchas, and the Kruras, O best of the Bharatas; the Yavanas, the Chinas, the Kamvojas, the Darunas, and many Mleccha tribes; the Sukritvahas, the Kulatthas, the Hunas, and the Parasikas; the Ramanas, and the Dasamalikas. These countries are, besides, the abodes of many Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Sudra tribes. Then again there are the Sudra-abhiras, the Dardas, the Kasmiras, and the Pattis; the Khasiras; the Atreyas, the Bharadwajas, the Stanaposhikas, the Poshakas, the Kalingas, and diverse tribes of Kiratas; the Tomaras, the Hansamargas, and the Karamanjakas. These and other kingdoms are on the east and on the north. O lord, alluding to them briefly I have told thee all. Earth, if its resources are properly developed according to its qualities and prowess, is like an ever-yielding 1 cow, from which the three-fold fruits of virtue, profit and pleasure, may be milked. Brave kings conversant with virtue and profit have become covetous of Earth. Endued with activity, they would even cast away their lives in battle, from hunger of wealth. Earth is certainly the refuge of creatures endued with celestial bodies as also of creatures endued with human bodies. 1 Desirous of enjoying Earth, the kings, O chief of the Bharatas, have become like dogs that snatch meat from one another. Their ambition is unbounded, knowing no gratification. 2 It is for this that the Kurus and the Pandavas are striving for possession of Earth, by negotiation, disunion, gift, and battle, O Bharata.
Link

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1 [सञ्जय उवाच]
ते सेने अनयॊन्यम आसाद्य प्रहृष्टाश्वनरद्विपे
बृहत्यौ संप्रजह्राते देवासुरचमूपमे
2 ततॊ गजा रथाश चाश्वाः पत्तयश च महाहवे
संप्रहारं परं चक्रुर देव पाप्म प्रणाशनम
3 पूर्णचन्द्रार्क पद्मानां कान्ति तविड गन्धतः समैः
उत्तमाङ्गैर नृसिंहानां नृसिंहास तस्तरुर महीम
4 अर्धचन्द्रैस तथा भल्लैः कषुरप्रैर असि पट्टिशैः
परश्वधैश चाप्य अकृन्तन्न उत्तमाङ्गानि युध्यताम
5 वयायतायत बाहूनां वयायतायत बाहुभिः
वयायता बाहवः पेतुश छिन्नमुष्ट्य आयुधाङ्गदाः
6 तैः सफुरद्भिर मही भाति रक्ताङ्गुलि तलैस तदा
गरुड प्रहतैर उग्रैः पञ्चास्यैर इव पन्नगैः
7 हयस्यन्दन नागेभ्यः पेतुर वीरा दविषद धताः
विमानेभ्यॊ यथा कषीणे पुण्ये सवर्गसदस तथा
8 गदाभिर अन्यैर गुर्वीभिः परिघैर मुसलैर अपि
पॊथिताः शतशः पेतुर वीरा वीरतरै रणे
9 रथा रथैर विनिहता मत्ता मत्तैर दविपैर दविपाः
सादिनः सादिभिश चैव तस्मिन परमसंकुले
10 रथा वररथैर नागैर अश्वारॊहाश च पत्तिभिः
अश्वारॊहैः पदाताश च निहता युधि शेरते
11 रथाश्वपत्तयॊ नागै रथैर नागाश च पत्तयः
रथपत्तिद्विपाश चाश्वैर नृभिश चाश्वरथद्विपाः
12 रथाश्वेभ नराणां च नराश्वेभ रथैः कृतम
पाणिपादैश च शस्त्रैश च रथैश च कदनं महत
13 तथा तस्मिन बले शूरैर वध्यमाने हते अपि च
अस्मान अभ्यागमन पार्था वृकॊदर पुरॊगमाः
14 धृष्टद्युम्नः शिखण्डी च द्रौपदेयाः प्रभद्रकाः
सात्यकिश चेकितानश च द्रविडैः सैनिकैः सह
15 भृता वित्तेन महता पाण्ड्याश चौड्राः स केरलाः
वयूढॊरस्का दीर्घभुजाः परांशवः प्रियदर्शनाः
16 आपीडिनॊ रक्तदन्ता मत्तमातङ्गविक्रमाः
नाना विराग वसना गन्धचूर्णावचूर्णिताः
17 बद्धासयः पाशहस्ता वारणप्रतिवारणाः
समानमृत्यवॊ राजन्न अनीकस्थाः परस्परम
18 कलापिनश चापहस्ता दीर्घकेशाः प्रियाहवाः
पत्तयः सात्यकेर अन्ध्रा घॊररूपपराक्रमाः
19 अथापरे पुनः शूराश चेदिपाञ्चालकेकयाः
करूषाः कॊसलाः काश्या मागधाश चापि दुद्रुवुः
20 तेषां रथाश च नागाश च परवराश चापि पत्तयः
नानाविध रवैर हृष्टा नृत्यन्ति च हसन्ति च
21 तस्य सैन्यस्य महतॊ महामात्रवरैर वृतः
मध्यं वृकॊदरॊ ऽभयागात तवदीयं नागधूर गतः

1 [s]
te sene 'nyonyam āsādya prahṛṣṭāśvanaradvipe
bṛhatyau saṃprajahrāte devāsuracamūpame
2 tato gajā rathāś cāśvāḥ pattayaś ca mahāhave
saṃprahāraṃ paraṃ cakrur deva pāpma praṇāśanam
3 pūrṇacandrārka padmānāṃ kānti tviḍ gandhataḥ samaiḥ
uttamāṅgair nṛsiṃhānāṃ nṛsiṃhās tastarur mahīm
4 ardhacandrais tathā bhallaiḥ kṣuraprair asi paṭṭiśaiḥ
paraśvadhaiś cāpy akṛntann uttamāṅgāni yudhyatām
5 vyāyatāyata bāhūnāṃ vyāyatāyata bāhubhiḥ
vyāyatā bāhavaḥ petuś chinnamuṣṭy āyudhāṅgadāḥ
6 taiḥ sphuradbhir mahī bhāti raktāṅguli talais tadā
garuḍa prahatair ugraiḥ pañcāsyair iva pannagaiḥ
7 hayasyandana nāgebhyaḥ petur vīrā dviṣad dhatāḥ
vimānebhyo yathā kṣīṇe puṇye svargasadas tathā
8 gadābhir anyair gurvībhiḥ parighair musalair api
pothitāḥ śataśaḥ petur vīrā vīratarai raṇe
9 rathā rathair vinihatā mattā mattair dvipair dvipāḥ
sādinaḥ sādibhiś caiva tasmin paramasaṃkule
10 rathā vararathair nāgair aśvārohāś ca pattibhiḥ
aśvārohaiḥ padātāś ca nihatā yudhi śerate
11 rathāśvapattayo nāgai rathair nāgāś ca pattayaḥ
rathapattidvipāś cāśvair nṛbhiś cāśvarathadvipāḥ
12 rathāśvebha narāṇāṃ ca narāśvebha rathaiḥ kṛtam
pāṇipādaiś ca śastraiś ca rathaiś ca kadanaṃ mahat
13 tathā tasmin bale śūrair vadhyamāne hate 'pi ca
asmān abhyāgaman pārthā vṛkodara purogamāḥ
14 dhṛṣṭadyumnaḥ śikhaṇḍī ca draupadeyāḥ prabhadrakāḥ
sātyakiś cekitānaś ca draviḍaiḥ sainikaiḥ saha
15 bhṛtā vittena mahatā pāṇḍyāś cauḍrāḥ sa keralāḥ
vyūḍhoraskā dīrghabhujāḥ prāṃśavaḥ priyadarśanāḥ
16 āpīḍino raktadantā mattamātaṅgavikramāḥ
nānā virāga vasanā gandhacūrṇāvacūrṇitāḥ
17 baddhāsayaḥ pāśahastā vāraṇaprativāraṇāḥ
samānamṛtyavo rājann anīkasthāḥ parasparam
18 kalāpinaś cāpahastā dīrghakeśāḥ priyāhavāḥ
pattayaḥ sātyaker andhrā ghorarūpaparākramāḥ
19 athāpare punaḥ śūrāś cedipāñcālakekayāḥ
karūṣāḥ kosalāḥ kāśyā māgadhāś cāpi dudruvuḥ
20 teṣāṃ rathāś ca nāgāś ca pravarāś cāpi pattayaḥ
nānāvidha ravair hṛṣṭā nṛtyanti ca hasanti ca
21 tasya sainyasya mahato mahāmātravarair vṛtaḥ
madhyaṃ vṛkodaro 'bhyāgāt tvadīyaṃ nāgadhūr gataḥ

- Mahabharata, Karna Parva, 8th Adhyaya(Chapter), (description of battle: Pandava side) Link

Translation:
Sanjaya said, 'Then those two vast armies, teeming with rejoicing men and steeds and elephants, resembling in splendour the celestial and the Asura hosts, meeting together, began to strike each other. Men, cars, steeds, elephants, and foot-soldiers of fierce prowess, made sturdy strokes destructive of bodies and sin. Lion-like men strewed the Earth with the heads of lion-like men, each resembling the full moon or the sun in splendour and the lotus in fragrance. Combatants cut off the heads of combatants, with crescent-shaped and broad-headed shafts and razor-faced arrows and axes, and battle-axes. The arms of men of long and massive arms, cut off by men of long and massive arms, falling upon the Earth, shone, decked with weapons and bracelets. With those writhing arms adorned with red fingers and palms, the Earth looked resplendent as if strewn with fierce five-headed snakes slain by Garuda. From elephants and cars and steeds, brave warriors fell down, struck by foes, like the denizens of heaven from their celestial cars on the exhaustion of their merits. Other brave warriors fell down by hundreds, crushed in that battle by brave combatants with heavy maces spiked clubs and short bludgeons. Cars also, in that tumultuous fight, were crushed by cars, and infuriate elephants by infuriate compeers, and horsemen by horsemen. Men destroyed by cars, and cars by elephants, and horsemen by foot-soldiers, and foot-soldiers by horsemen, dropped down on the field, as also cars and steeds and foot-soldiers destroyed by elephants and cars and steeds and elephants by foot-soldiers, and cars and foot-soldiers and elephants by steeds and men and elephants by cars. Great was the carnage made of car-warriors and steeds and elephants and men by men and steeds and elephants and car-warriors, using their hands and feet and weapons and cars. When that host was being thus struck and slain by heroic warriors the Parthas, headed by Vrikodara, advanced against us. They consisted of Dhrishtadyumna and Shikhandi and the five sons of Draupadi and the Prabhadrakas, and Satyaki and Chekitana with the Dravida forces, and the Pandyas, the Cholas, and the Keralas, surrounded by a mighty array, all possessed of broad chests, long arms, tall statures, and large eyes. Decked with ornaments, possessed of red teeth, endued with the prowess of infuriate elephants, attired in robes of diverse colours, smeared with powdered scents, armed with swords and nooses, capable of restraining mighty elephants, companions in death, and never deserting one another, equipped with quivers, bearing bows adorned with long locks, and agreeable in speech were the combatants of the infantry files led by Satyaki, belonging to the Andhra tribe, endued with fierce forms and great energy.
Link

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14 वीरान कृतास्त्रान समरे सर्वान एवानुवर्तिनः
अक्षौहिणीपतीन उग्रान संरब्धान युद्धदुर्मदान
15 शरेण्यश च बहुलाः कषीणाः प्रदीर्णाश्वरथद्विपाः
नानाजनपदाश चॊग्राः कषत्रियाणाम अमर्षिणाम
16 गॊवास दासम ईयानां वसातीनां च भारत
वरात्यानां वाटधानानां भॊजानां चापि मानिनाम
17 उदीर्णाश च महासेना ब्रह्मक्षत्रस्य भारत
तवां समासाद्य निधनं गताः साश्वरथद्विपाः
18 उग्राश च क्रूरकर्माणस तुखारा यवनाः खशाः
दार्वाभिसारा दरदाः शका रमठ तङ्गणाः
19 अन्ध्रकाश च पुलिन्दाश च किराताश चॊग्रविक्रमाः
मलेच्छाश च पार्वतीयाश च सागरानूपवासिनः
संरम्भिणॊ युद्धशौण्डा बलिनॊ दृब्ध पाणयः
20 एते सुयॊधनस्यार्थे संरब्धाः कुरुभिः सह
न शक्या युधि निर्जेतुं तवदन्येन परंतप

14 vīrān kṛtāstrān samare sarvān evānuvartinaḥ
akṣauhiṇīpatīn ugrān saṃrabdhān yuddhadurmadān
15 śreṇyaś ca bahulāḥ kṣīṇāḥ pradīrṇāśvarathadvipāḥ
nānājanapadāś cogrāḥ kṣatriyāṇām amarṣiṇām
16 govāsa dāsam īyānāṃ vasātīnāṃ ca bhārata
vrātyānāṃ vāṭadhānānāṃ bhojānāṃ cāpi māninām
17 udīrṇāś ca mahāsenā brahmakṣatrasya bhārata
tvāṃ samāsādya nidhanaṃ gatāḥ sāśvarathadvipāḥ
18 ugrāś ca krūrakarmāṇas tukhārā yavanāḥ khaśāḥ
dārvābhisārā daradāḥ śakā ramaṭha taṅgaṇāḥ
19 andhrakāś ca pulindāś ca kirātāś cogravikramāḥ
mlecchāś ca pārvatīyāś ca sāgarānūpavāsinaḥ
saṃrambhiṇo yuddhaśauṇḍā balino dṛbdha pāṇayaḥ
20 ete suyodhanasyārthe saṃrabdhāḥ kurubhiḥ saha
na śakyā yudhi nirjetuṃ tvadanyena paraṃtapa

- Mahabharata, Karna Parva, 51st Adhyaya(Chapter), (Sri Krishna describing Kaurava side to Arjuna) Link

Translation:
Of terrible deeds and exceedingly fierce, the Tusharas, the Yavanas, the Khasas, the Darvabhisaras, the Daradas, the Sakas, the Kamathas, the Ramathas, the Tanganas the Andhrakas, the Pulindas, the Kiratas of fierce prowess, the Mlecchas, the Mountaineers, and the races hailing from the sea-side, all endued with great wrath and great might, delighting in battle and armed with maces, these all--united with the Kurus and fighting wrathfully for Duryodhana's sake were incapable of being vanquished in battle by anybody else save thee, O scorcher of foes!
Link

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मान्धाता उवाच
13 यवनाः किराता गान्धाराश चीनाः शबर बर्बराः
शकास तुषाराः कह्वाश च पह्लवाशआन्ध्र मद्रकाः
14 ओड्राः पुलिन्दा रमठाः काचा मलेच्छाश च सर्वशः
ब्रह्मक्षत्रप्रसूताश च वैश्याः शूद्राश च मानवाः
15 कथं धर्मं चरेयुस ते सर्वे विषयवासिनः
मद्विधैश च कथं सथाप्याः सर्वे ते दस्यु जीविनः
16 एतद इच्छामि अहं श्रोतुं भगवंस तद ब्रवीहि मे
त्वं बन्धुभूतॊ हि अस्माकं क्षत्रियाणां सुरेश्वर
इन्द्र उवाच
17 मातापित्र्यॊर हि कर्तव्या शुश्रूषा सर्वदस्युभिः
आचार्य गुरुशुश्रूषा तथैवाश्रमवासिनाम
18 भूमिपालानां च शुश्रूषा कर्तव्या सर्वदस्युभिः
वेद धर्मक्रियाश चैव तेषां धर्मॊ विधीयते
19 पितृयज्ञास तथा कूपाः प्रपाश च शयनानि च
दानानि च यथाकालं द्विजेषु दद्युर एव ते
20 अहिंसा सत्यम अक्रॊधॊ वृत्ति दायानुपालनम
भरणं पुत्रदाराणां शौचम अद्रॊह एव च
21 दक्षिणा सर्वयज्ञानां दातव्या भूतिम इच्छता
पाकयज्ञा महार्हाश च कर्तव्याः सर्वदस्युभिः
22 एतान्य एवं प्रकाराणि विहितानि पुरानघ
सर्वलॊकस्य कर्माणि कर्तव्यानीह पार्थिव
मान्धाता उवाच
23 दृश्यन्ते मानवा लॊके सर्ववर्णेषु दस्यवः
लिङ्गान्तरे वर्तमाना आश्रमेषु चतुर्ष्व अपि
इन्द्र उवाच
24 विनष्टायां दण्डनीतौ राजधर्मे निराकृते
संप्रमुह्यन्ति भूतानि राजदौरात्म्यतॊ नृप
25 असंख्याता भविष्यन्ति भिक्षवॊ लिङ्गिनस तथा
आश्रमाणां विकल्पाश च निवृत्ते अस्मिन् कृते युगे
26 अशृण्वानाः पुराणानां धर्माणां प्रवरा गतीः
उत्पथं प्रतिपत्स्यन्ते काममन्युसमीरिताः
27 यदा निवर्त्यते पापॊ दण्डनीत्या महात्मभिः
तदा धर्मॊ न चलते सद भूतः शाश्वतः परः
28 परलॊकगुरुं चैव राजानं यॊ अवमन्यते
न तस्य दत्तं न हुतं न श्राद्धं फलति क्वचित
29 मानुषाणाम अधिपतिं देवभूतं सनातनम
देवाश च बहु मन्यन्ते धर्मकामं नरेश्वरम
30 प्रजापतिर हि भगवान यः सर्वम असृजज जगत
स प्रवृत्ति निवृत्त्यर्थं धर्माणां क्षत्रम इच्छति
31 प्रवृत्तस्य हि धर्मस्य बुद्ध्या यः समरते गतिम
स मे मान्यश च पूज्यश च तत्र क्षत्रं प्रतिष्ठितम

13 yavanāḥ kirātā gāndhārāś cīnāḥ śabara barbarāḥ
śakās tuṣārāḥ kahvāś ca pahlavāś cha āndhra madrakāḥ
14 oḍrāḥ pulindā ramaṭhāḥ kācā mlecchāś ca sarvaśaḥ
brahmakṣatraprasūtāś ca vaiśyāḥ śūdrāś ca mānavāḥ
15 kathaṃ dharmaṃ careyus te sarve viṣayavāsinaḥ
madvidhaiś ca kathaṃ sthāpyāḥ sarve te dasyu jīvinaḥ
16 etad icchāmy ahaṃ śrotuṃ bhagavaṃs tad bravīhi me
tvaṃ bandhubhūto hy asmākaṃ kṣatriyāṇāṃ sureśvara
17 mātāpitryor hi kartavyā śuśrūṣā sarvadasyubhiḥ
ācārya guruśuśrūṣā tathaivāśramavāsinām
18 bhūmipālānāṃ ca śuśrūṣā kartavyā sarvadasyubhiḥ
veda dharmakriyāś caiva teṣāṃ dharmo vidhīyate
19 pitṛyajñās tathā kūpāḥ prapāś ca śayanāni ca
dānāni ca yathākālaṃ dvijeṣu dadyur eva te
20 ahiṃsā satyam akrodho vṛtti dāyānupālanam
bharaṇaṃ putradārāṇāṃ śaucam adroha eva ca
21 dakṣiṇā sarvayajñānāṃ dātavyā bhūtim icchatā
pākayajñā mahārhāś ca kartavyāḥ sarvadasyubhiḥ
22 etāny evaṃ prakārāṇi vihitāni purānagha
sarvalokasya karmāṇi kartavyānīha pārthiva
23 dṛśyante mānavā loke sarvavarṇeṣu dasyavaḥ
liṅgāntare vartamānā āśrameṣu caturṣv api
24 vinaṣṭāyāṃ daṇḍanītau rājadharme nirākṛte
saṃpramuhyanti bhūtāni rājadaurātmyato nṛpa
25 asaṃkhyātā bhaviṣyanti bhikṣavo liṅginas tathā
āśramāṇāṃ vikalpāś ca nivṛtte 'smin kṛte yuge
26 aśṛṇvānāḥ purāṇānāṃ dharmāṇāṃ pravarā gatīḥ
utpathaṃ pratipatsyante kāmamanyusamīritāḥ
27 yadā nivartyate pāpo daṇḍanītyā mahātmabhiḥ
tadā dharmo na calate sad bhūtaḥ śāśvataḥ paraḥ
28 paralokaguruṃ caiva rājānaṃ yo 'vamanyate
na tasya dattaṃ na hutaṃ na śrāddhaṃ phalati kva cit
29 mānuṣāṇām adhipatiṃ devabhūtaṃ sanātanam
devāś ca bahu manyante dharmakāmaṃ nareśvaram
30 prajāpatir hi bhagavān yaḥ sarvam asṛjaj jagat
sa pravṛtti nivṛttyarthaṃ dharmāṇāṃ kṣatram icchati
31 pravṛttasya hi dharmasya buddhyā yaḥ smarate gatim
sa me mānyaś ca pūjyaś ca tatra kṣatraṃ pratiṣṭhitam

- Mahabharata, Shanti Parva, 65th Adhyaya(Chapter), (Vishnu, in the guise of Indra, explaining the duties/dharma to Mandhata in Krita Yuga. Bhishma relates this story to Yuddhishtira.) Link

Translation:
"Indra said, 'Kshatriya duties, O king, which are possessed of such energy, which include in their exercise all other duties, and which are the foremost of all duties, should be observed by persons that are, like thee, so high-souled and so employed in seeking the good of the world. If those duties are not properly discharged, all creatures would be overtaken by ruin. The kings possessed of compassion for all creatures, should regard these to be the foremost of his duties, reclaiming the land for cultivation and fertilizing it, performance of great sacrifices for cleansing himself, a disregard for begging, and protection of subjects. Abandonment (gift) is said by the sages to be the foremost of virtues. Of all kinds of abandonment, again, that of the body in battle, is the foremost. Thou hast seen with thy eyes how the rulers of the earth, ever observant of Kshatriya duties, having duly waited upon their preceptors and acquired great learning, at last cast off their bodies, engaged in battle with one another. The Kshatriya, desirous of acquiring religious merit, should, after having gone through theBrahmacharya mode, should lead a life of domesticity which is always meritorious. In adjudicating upon ordinary questions of right (between his subjects), he should be thoroughly impartial. For causing all the orders to be observant of their respective duties, for the protection they afford to all, for the diverse contrivances and means and the prowess and exertion (with which they seek the accomplishment of their objects). Kshatriya duties, which include all other duties within their scope, are said to be the foremost. The other orders are able to observe their respective duties in consequence of kingly duties. For this reason the former are said to be dependent upon the latter in respect of the merit they produce. 1 Those men who disregard all wholesome restraints and who are too much attached to the pursuit of worldly objects are said to be of the nature of brutes. They are compelled to act with justice by the exercise of kingly duties. Those duties, therefore, are said to be the foremost of all. That course of conduct which has been prescribed for Brahmanas who follow the three Vedas, and those modes of life that have been laid down for Brahmanas, should, before everything else, be observed by every Brahmana. If a Brahmana acts otherwise, he should be punished like a Sudra. The duties of the four modes of life and the ritual prescribed in the Vedas, O king, should ever be followed by a Brahmana. Know that he has no other duties. For a Brahmana acting otherwise, a Kshatriya should not make any arrangement for sustenance. His religious merit grows in consequence of his acts. A Brahmana, indeed, is likeDharma's self. That Brahmana who is employed in acts that are not laid down for him, deserves no respect. If not engaged in his proper acts, he should not be trusted. These are the duties that appertain to the several orders. Kshatriyas should take care of them so that their observance may be improved. Even these are the duties of Kshatriyas. For these reasons also, kingly duties and no other, are the foremost of all. They are, as I believe, the duties of heroes, and they that are heroes are foremost in practising them.'

"Mandhatri said, 'What duties should be performed by the Yavanas, the Kiratas, the Gandharvas, the Chinas, the Savaras, the Barbaras, the Sakas, the Tusharas, the Kankas, the Pathavas, the Andhras, the Madrakas, the Paundras, the Pulindas, the Ramathas, the Kamvojas, the several castes that have sprung Lip from Brahmanas and Kshatriyas, the Vaisyas, and the Sudras, that reside in the dominions of (Arya) kings? What are those duties again to the observance of which kings like ourselves should force those tribes that subsist by robbery? I desire to hear all this. O illustrious god, instruct me. O chief of all the deities, thou art the friend of us Kshatriyas.'

"Indra said, 'All the robber tribes should serve their mothers and fathers, their preceptors and other seniors, and recluses living in the woods. All the robber tribes should also serve their kings. The duties and rites inculcated in the Vedas should also be followed by them. They should perform sacrifices in honour of thePitris, dig wells, (and dedicate them to universal service), give water to thirsty travellers, give away beds and make other seasonable presents unto Brahmanas. Abstention from injury, truth, suppression of wrath, supporting Brahmanas and kinsmen by giving them their dues, maintenance of wives and children, purity, peacefulness, making presents to Brahmanas at sacrifices of every kind, are duties that should be practised by every person of this class who desire his own prosperity. Such a person should also perform all kinds ofPaka-yajnas with costly presents of food and wealth. These and similar duties, O sinless one, were laid down in olden days for persons of this class. All these acts which have been laid down for all others should be done by persons of also the robber class, O king.'

"Mandhatri said, 'In the world of men, such wicked men may be seen living in disguise among all the four orders and in all the four modes of life.'

"Indra said, 'Upon the disappearance of kingly duties and of the science of chastisement, all creatures became exceedingly afflicted, O sinless one, in consequence of the tyranny of kings. After the expiry of this theKrita age, a confusion will set in, regarding the different modes of life, and innumerable Bhikshus will appear with sectarian marks of different kinds. Disregarding thePuranas and the high truths of religion, men, urged by lust and wrath, will deviate into Wrong paths. When sinful men are rest rained (from wicked acts) by high-souled persons with the aid of the science of chastisement, then religion, which is superior to everything and eternal, and which is the source of everything good, becomes firmly established. The gifts, and libations, and offerings to thePitris of the man that disregards the king who is superior to every one, become fruitless. The very gods do not disregard a virtuous king who is truly an eternal god. The divine Lord of all creatures, having created the universe, intended the Kshatriya to rule men regarding their inclinations and disinclinations in respect of duties. I respect and worship that person who, aided by his understanding, watches the course of the duties performed by men. Upon such supervision rest Kshatriya duties.'

"Bhishma continued, 'Having said these words, the divine and puissant Narayana in the form of Indra, accompanied by the Maruts, repaired to his eternal abode of inexhaustible felicity.
Link

In the above translation by KM Ganguli, he has translated the word 'dasyu' as 'robbers'. I think the word 'dasyu' can be better translated as 'impious' based on the context.

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1 [युधिष्ठिर उवाच]
अर्थाश्रयाद वा कामाद वा वर्णानां वाप्य अनिश्चयात
अज्ञानाद वापि वर्णानां जायते वर्णसंकरः
2 तेषाम एतेन विधिना जातानां वर्णसंकरे
कॊ धर्मः कानि कर्माणि तन मे बरूहि पितामह
3 [भीष्म उवाच]
चातुर्वर्ण्यस्य कर्माणि चातुर्वर्ण्यं च केवलम
असृजत स ह यज्ञार्थे पूर्वम एव प्रजापतिः
4 भार्याश चतस्रॊ विप्रस्य द्वयॊर आत्मास्य जायते
आनुपूर्व्याद द्वयॊर हीनौ मातृजात्यौ परसूयतः
5 परं शवाद ब्राह्मणस्यैष पुत्रः; शूद्रा पुत्रं पारशवं तम आहुः
शुश्रूषकः सवस्य कुलस्य स स्यात; सवं चारित्रं नित्यम अथॊ न जह्यात
6 सर्वान उपायान अपि संप्रधार्य; समुद्धरेत सवस्य कुलस्य तन्तुम
जयेष्ठॊ यवीयान अपि यॊ द्विजस्य; शुश्रूषवान दानपरायणः स्यात
7 तिस्रः क्षत्रिय संबन्धाद द्वयॊर आत्मास्य जायते
हीनवर्णस तृतीयायां शूद्र उग्र इति समृतः
8 द्वे चापि भार्ये वैश्यस्य द्वयॊर आत्मास्य जायते
शुद्रा शूद्रस्य चाप्य एका शूद्रम एव प्रजायते
9 अतॊ विशिष्टस तव अधमॊ गुरु दारप्रधर्षकः
ब्राह्यं वर्णं जनयति चातुर्वर्ण्यविगर्हितम
10 अयाज्यं क्षत्रियॊ वरात्यं सूतं सतॊक करियापरम
वैश्यॊ वैदेहकं चापि मौद्गल्यम अपवर्जितम
11 शूद्रश चण्डालम अत्युग्रं वध्यघ्नं ब्राह्यवासिनम
ब्राह्मण्यां संप्रजायन्त इत्य एते कुलपांसनाः
एते मतिमतां श्रेष्ठ वर्णसंकरजाः प्रभॊ
12 बन्दी तु जायते वैश्यान माघधॊ वाक्यजीवनः
शूद्रान निषादॊ मत्स्यघ्नः क्षत्रियायां वयतिक्रमात
13 शूद्राद आयॊगवश चापि वैश्यायां ग्रामधर्मिणः
ब्राह्मणैर अप्रतिग्राह्यस तक्षा स वनजीवनः
14 एते अपि सदृशं वर्णं जनयन्ति स्वयॊनिषु
मातृजात्यां परसूयन्ते परवरा हीनयॊनिषु
15 यथा चतुर्षु वर्णेषु द्वयॊर आत्मास्य जायते
आनन्तर्यात तु जायन्ते तथा ब्राह्याः परधानतः
16 ते चापि सदृशं वर्णं जनयन्ति स्वयॊनिषु
परस्परस्य वर्तन्तॊ जनयन्ति विगर्हितान
17 यथा च शूद्रॊ ब्राह्मण्यां जन्तुं ब्राह्यं प्रसूयते
एवं बाह्यतराद बाह्यश चातुर्वर्ण्यात प्रसूयते
18 प्रतिलॊमं तु वर्तन्तॊ ब्राह्याद ब्राह्यतरं पुनः
हीना हीनात प्रसूयन्ते वर्णाः पञ्चदशैव ते
19 अगम्या गमनाच चैव वर्तते वर्णसंकरः
वरात्यानाम अत्र जायन्ते सैरन्ध्रा मागधेषु च
प्रसाधनॊपचारज्ञम अदासं दासजीवनम
20 अतश चायॊगवं सूते वागुरा वनजीवनम
मैरेयकं च वैदेहः संप्रसूते अथ माधुकम
21 निषादॊ मुद्गरं सूते दाशं नावॊपजीविनम
मृतपं चापि चण्डालः शवपाकम अतिकुत्सितम
22 चतुरॊ मागधी सूते करूरान मायॊपजीविनः
मांसस्वादु करं सूदं सौगन्धम इति संज्ञितम
23 वैदेहकाच च पापिष्ठं क्रूरं भार्यॊपजीविनम
निषादान मद्रनाभं च खरयानप्रयायिनम
24 चण्डालात पुल्कसं चापि खराश्वगजभॊजिनम
मृतचेल परतिच्छन्नं भिन्नभाजन भॊजिनम
25 आयॊगवीषु जायन्ते हीनवर्णासु ते तरयः
कषुद्रॊ वैदेहकाद अन्ध्रॊ बहिर ग्रामप्रतिश्रयः

29 इत्य एताः संकरे जात्यः पितृमातृव्यतिक्रमात
प्रच्छन्ना वा प्रकाशा वा वेदितव्याः सवकर्मभिः
30 चतुर्णाम एव वर्णानां धर्मॊ नान्यस्य विद्यते
वर्णानां धर्महीनेषु संज्ञा नास्तीह कस्यचित
31 यदृच्छयॊपसंपन्नैर यज्ञसाधु बहिष्कृतैः
बाह्या बाह्यैस तु जायन्ते यथावृत्ति यथाश्रयम

1 [y]
arthāśrayād vā kāmād vā varṇānāṃ vāpy aniścayāt
ajñānād vāpi varṇānāṃ jāyate varṇasaṃkaraḥ
2 teṣām etena vidhinā jātānāṃ varṇasaṃkare
ko dharmaḥ kāni karmāṇi tan me brūhi pitāmaha
3 [bh]
cāturvarṇyasya karmāṇi cāturvarṇyaṃ ca kevalam
asṛjat sa ha yajñārthe pūrvam eva prajāpatiḥ
4 bhāryāś catasro viprasya dvayor ātmāsya jāyate
ānupūrvyād dvayor hīnau mātṛjātyau prasūyataḥ
5 paraṃ śavād brāhmaṇasyaiṣa putraḥ; śūdrā putraṃ pāraśavaṃ tam āhuḥ
śuśrūṣakaḥ svasya kulasya sa syāt; svaṃ cāritraṃ nityam atho na jahyāt
6 sarvān upāyān api saṃpradhārya; samuddharet svasya kulasya tantum
jyeṣṭho yavīyān api yo dvijasya; śuśrūṣavān dānaparāyaṇaḥ syāt
7 tisraḥ kṣatriya saṃbandhād dvayor ātmāsya jāyate
hīnavarṇas tṛtīyāyāṃ śūdra ugra iti smṛtaḥ
8 dve cāpi bhārye vaiśyasya dvayor ātmāsya jāyate
śudrā śūdrasya cāpy ekā śūdram eva prajāyate
9 ato viśiṣṭas tv adhamo guru dārapradharṣakaḥ
bāhyaṃ varṇaṃ janayati cāturvarṇyavigarhitam
10 ayājyaṃ kṣatriyo vrātyaṃ sūtaṃ stoka kriyāparam
vaiśyo vaidehakaṃ cāpi maudgalyam apavarjitam
11 śūdraś caṇḍālam atyugraṃ vadhyaghnaṃ bāhyavāsinam
brāhmaṇyāṃ saṃprajāyanta ity ete kulapāṃsanāḥ
ete matimatāṃ śreṣṭha varṣasaṃkarajāḥ prabho
12 bandī tu jāyate vaiśyān māghadho vākyajīvanaḥ
śūdrān niṣādo matsyaghnaḥ kṣatriyāyāṃ vyatikramāt
13 śūdrād āyogavaś cāpi vaiśyāyāṃ grāmadharmiṇaḥ
brāhmaṇair apratigrāhyas takṣā sa vanajīvanaḥ
14 ete 'pi sadṛśaṃ varṇaṃ janayanti svayoniṣu
mātṛjātyāṃ prasūyante pravarā hīnayoniṣu
15 yathā caturṣu varṇeṣu dvayor ātmāsya jāyate
ānantaryāt tu jāyante tathā bāhyāḥ pradhānataḥ
16 te cāpi sadṛśaṃ varṇaṃ janayanti svayoniṣu
parasparasya vartanto janayanti vigarhitān
17 yathā ca śūdro brāhmaṇyāṃ jantuṃ bāhyaṃ prasūyate
evaṃ bāhyatarād bāhyaś cāturvarṇyāt prasūyate
18 pratilomaṃ tu vartanto bāhyād bāhyataraṃ punaḥ
hīnā hīnāt prasūyante varṇāḥ pañcadaśaiva te
19 agamyā gamanāc caiva vartate varṇasaṃkaraḥ
vrātyānām atra jāyante sairandhrā māgadheṣu ca
prasādhanopacārajñam adāsaṃ dāsajīvanam
20 ataś cāyogavaṃ sūte vāgurā vanajīvanam
maireyakaṃ ca vaidehaḥ saṃprasūte 'tha mādhukam
21 niṣādo mudgaraṃ sūte dāśaṃ nāvopajīvinam
mṛtapaṃ cāpi caṇḍālaḥ śvapākam atikutsitam
22 caturo māgadhī sūte krūrān māyopajīvinaḥ
māṃsasvādu karaṃ sūdaṃ saugandham iti saṃjñitam
23 vaidehakāc ca pāpiṣṭhaṃ krūraṃ bhāryopajīvinam
niṣādān madranābhaṃ ca kharayānaprayāyinam
24 caṇḍālāt pulkasaṃ cāpi kharāśvagajabhojinam
mṛtacela praticchannaṃ bhinnabhājana bhojinam
25 āyogavīṣu jāyante hīnavarṇāsu te trayaḥ
kṣudro vaidehakād andhro bahir grāmapratiśrayaḥ
...
29 ity etāḥ saṃkare jātyaḥ pitṛmātṛvyatikramāt
pracchannā vā prakāśā vā veditavyāḥ svakarmabhiḥ
30 caturṇām eva varṇānāṃ dharmo nānyasya vidyate
varṇānāṃ dharmahīneṣu saṃjñā nāstīha kasya cit
31 yadṛcchayopasaṃpannair yajñasādhu bahiṣkṛtaiḥ
bāhyā bāhyais tu jāyante yathāvṛtti yathāśrayam

- Mahabharata, Anushasana Parva, 48th Adhyaya(Chapter), (Bhishma explains caste system to Yuddhishtira. Bhishma lists several mixed (‘Sankara’) castes. Andhras are listed as one such caste.) Link

Translation:
"Yudhishthira said, 'Through inducements offered by wealth, or through mere lust, or through ignorance of the true order of birth (of both males and females), or through folly, intermixture happens of the several order What, O grandsire, are the duties of persons that are born in the mixed classes and what are the acts laid down for them? Do thou discourse to me on this!'

"Bhishma said, 'In the beginning, the Lord of all creatures created the four orders and laid down their respective acts or duties, for the sake of sacrifice. 1 The Brahmana may take four wives, one from each of the four orders. In two of them (viz., the wife taken from his own order and that taken from the one next below), he takes birth himself (the children begotten upon them being regarded as invested with the same status as his own). Those sons, however, that are begotten by him on the two spouses that belong to the next two orders (viz., Vaisya and Sudra), are inferior, their status being determined not by that of their father but by that of their mothers. The son that is begotten by a Brahmana upon a Sudra wife is called Parasara, implying one born of a corpse, for the Sudra woman's body is as inauspicious as a corpse. He should serve the persons of his (father's) race. Indeed, it is not proper for him to give up the duty of service that has been laid down for him. Adopting all means in his power, he should uphold the burden of his family. Even if he happens to be elder in age, he should still dutifully serve the other children of his father who may be younger to him in years, and bestow upon them whatever he may succeed in earning. A Kshatriya may take three wives. In two of them (viz., the one taken from his own order and the other that is taken from the order immediately below), he takes birth himself (so that those children are invested with the status of his own order). His third wife being of the Sudra order is regarded as very inferior. The son that he begets upon her comes to be called as an Ugra. The Vaisya may take two spouses. In both of them (viz., the one taken from his own order, and the other from the lowest of the four pure orders), he takes birth himself (so that those children become invested with the status of his own order). The Sudra can take only one wife,viz., she that is taken from his own order. The son begotten by him upon her becomes a Sudra. A son that takes birth under circumstances other than those mentioned above, comes to be looked upon as a very inferior one If a person of a lower order begets a son upon a woman of a superior order, such a son is regarded as outside the pale of the four pure orders. Indeed, such a son becomes on object of censure with the four principal orders. If a Kshatriya begets a son upon a Brahmana woman, such a son, without being included in any of the four pure orders, comes to be regarded as a Suta The duties of a Suta are all connected with the reciting of eulogies and encomiums of kings and other great men. The son begotten by a Vaisya upon a woman of the Brahmana order comes to be regarded as a Vaidehaka. The duties assigned to him are the charge of bars and bolts for protecting the privacy of women of respectable households. Such sons have no cleansing rites laid down for them. 2 If a Sudra unites with a woman belonging to the foremost of the four orders, the son that is begotten is called a Chandala. Endued with a fierce disposition, he must live in the outskirts of cities and towns and the duty assigned to him is that of the public executioner. Such sons are always regarded as wretches of their race. These, O foremost of intelligent persons, are the offspring of intermixed orders. The son begotten by a Vaisya upon a Kshatriya woman becomes a Vandi or Magadha. The duties assigned to him are eloquent recitations of praise. The son begotten through transgression, by a Sudra upon a Kshatriya women, becomes a Nishada and the duties assigned to him have reference to the catching of fish. If a Sudra happens to have intercourse with a Vaisya woman, the son begotten upon her comes to be called Ayogava. The duty assigned to such a person are those of a Takshan (carpenter). They that are Brahmanas should never accept gifts from such a person. They are not entitled to possess any kind of wealth. Persons belonging to the mixed castes beget upon spouses taken from their own castes children invested with the status that is their own. When they beget children in women taken from castes that are inferior to theirs, such children become inferior to their fathers, for they become invested with the status that belongs to their mothers Thus as regards the four pure orders, persons beget children invested with their own status upon spouses taken from their own orders as also upon them that are taken from the orders immediately below their own. When, however, offspring are begotten upon other spouses, they come to be regarded as invested with a status that is, principally, outside the pale of the four pure orders. When such children beget sons in women taken from their own classes, those sons take the status of their sires. It is only when they take spouse from castes other than their own, that the children they beget become invested with inferior status. As an example of this it may be said that a Sudra begets upon a woman belonging to the most superior order a son that is outside the pale of the four orders (for such a son comes to be regarded as a Chandala who is much inferior). The son that is outside the pale of the four orders by uniting with women belonging to the four principal orders, begets offspring that are further degraded in point of status. From those outside the pale of the four orders and those again that are further outside that pale, children multiply in consequence of the union of persons with women of classes superior to their own. In this way, from persons of inferior status classes spring up, altogether fifteen in number, that are equally low or still lower in status. It is only from sexual union of women with persons who should not have such union with them that mixed classes spring up. Among the classes that are thus outside the pale of the four principal or pure orders, children are begotten upon women belonging to the class called Sairindhri by men of the class called Magadha. The occupation of such offspring is the adornment of the bodies of kinds and others. They are well-acquainted with the preparation of unguents, the making of wreaths, and the manufacture of articles used for the decoration of the person. Though free by the status that attaches to them by birth, they should yet lead a life of service. From the union of Magadhas of a certain class with women of the caste called Sairindhri, there springs up another caste called Ayogava. Their occupation consists in the making of nets (for catching fish and fowl and animals of the chase). Vaidehas, by uniting themselves with women of the Sairindhri caste, beget children called Maireyakas whose occupation consists in the manufacture of wines and spirits. From the Nishadas spring a caste called Madgura and another known by the name of Dasas whose occupation consists in plying boats. From the Chandala springs a race called Swapaka whose occupation consists in keeping guard over the dead. The women of the Magadhi caste, by union with these four castes of wicked dispositions produce four others who live by practising deceit. These are Mansa, Swadukara, Kshaudra, and Saugandha. From the Vaideha springs up a cruel and sinful caste that lives by practising deception. From the Nishadas again springs up the Madranabha caste whose members are seen to ride on cars drawn by asses. From the Chandalas springs up the caste called Pukkasa whose members are seen to eat the flesh of asses, horses and elephants. These cover themselves with the garments obtained by stripping human corpses. They are again seen to eat from broken earthenware 1. These three castes of very low status are born of women of the Ayogava caste (by fathers taken from different castes). The caste called Kshudra springs from the Vaidehaka. The caste called Andhra which takes up its residence in the outskirts of towns and cities, also springs up (from the Vaidehakas). Then again the Charmakara, uniting himself with a woman of Nishada caste, begets the class called Karavara. From the Chandala again springs up the caste known by the name of Pandusaupaka whose occupation consists in making baskets and other things with cleft bamboos. From the union of the Nishada with a woman of the Vaidehi caste springs one who is called by the name of Ahindaka. The Chandala begets upon a Saupaka woman, a son that does not differ from the Chandala in status or occupation. A Nishada woman, by union with a Chandala, brings forth a son who lives in the outskirts of villages and towns. Indeed, the members of such a caste live in crematoria and are regarded by the very lowest orders as incapable of being numbered among them. Thus to these mixed castes spring up from improper and sinful union of fathers and mothers belonging to different castes. Whether they live in concealment or openly, they should be known by their occupations. The duties have been laid down in the scriptures for only the four principal orders. As regards the others the scriptures are entirely silent. Among all the orders, the members of those castes that have no duties assigned to them by the scriptures, need have no fears as to what they do (to earn their livelihood). Persons unaccustomed to the performance or for whom sacrifices have not been laid down, and who are deprived of the company and the instructions of the righteous whether numbered among the four principal orders or out of their pale, by uniting themselves with women of other castes, led not by considerations of righteousness but by uncontrolled lust, cause numerous mixed castes to come into existence whose occupations and abodes depend on the circumstances connected with the irregular unions to which they owe their origin. Having recourse to spots where four roads meet, or crematoria, or hills and mountains, or forests and trees, they build their habitations there. The ornaments they wear are made of iron. Living in such places openly, they betake themselves to their own occupations to earn their livelihood. They may be seen to live in this way, adorning their persons with ornaments and employed in the task of manufacturing diverse kinds of domestic and other utensils. Without doubt, by assisting kine and Brahmanas, and practising the virtues of abstention from cruelty, compassion, truthfulness of speech, and forgiveness, and, if need be, by preserving others by laying down their very lives, persons of the mixed castes may achieve success. I have no doubt, O chief of men, that these virtues become the causes of their success. He that is possessed of intelligence, should, taking everything into consideration, beget offspring according to the ordinances of the scriptures, upon woman that have been declared proper or fit for him. A son begotten upon a women belonging to a degraded caste, instead of rescuing the sire, brings him to grief even as a heavy weight brings to grief a swimmer desirous of crossing water. Whether a man happens to be possessed of learning or not, lust and wrath are natural attributes of humanity in this world. Women, therefore, may always be seen to drag men into the wrong path. This natural disposition of women is such that man's contact with her is productive of misery to him. Hence, men possessed of wisdom do not suffer themselves to be excessively attached to women.'
Link

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8 एकलव्य सुतश चैनं युद्धेन जगृहे तदा
ततश चक्रे निषादैः स संग्रामं रॊमहर्षणम
9 ततस तम अपि कौन्तेयः समरेष्व अपराजितः
जिगाय समरे वीरॊ यज्ञविघ्नार्थम उद्यतम
10 स तं जित्वा महाराज नैषादिं पाकशासनिः
अर्चितः परययौ भूयॊ दक्षिणं सलिलार्णवम
11 तत्रापि द्रविडैः अन्ध्रै रौद्रैर माहिषकैर अपि
तथा कॊल्ल गिरेयैश च युद्धम आसीत किरीटिनः
12 तुरगस्य वशेनाथ सुराष्ट्रान अभितॊ ययौ
गॊकर्णम अपि चासाद्य परभासम अपि जग्मिवान

8 ekalavya sutaś cainaṃ yuddhena jagṛhe tadā
tataś cakre niṣādaiḥ sa saṃgrāmaṃ romaharṣaṇam
9 tatas tam api kaunteyaḥ samareṣv aparājitaḥ
jigāya samare vīro yajñavighnārtham udyatam
10 sa taṃ jitvā mahārāja naiṣādiṃ pākaśāsaniḥ
arcitaḥ prayayau bhūyo dakṣiṇaṃ salilārṇavam
11 tatrāpi draviḍair andhrai raidrair māhiṣakair api
tathā kolla gireyaiś ca yuddham āsīt kirīṭinaḥ
12 turagasya vaśenātha surāṣṭrān abhito yayau
gokarṇam api cāsādya prabhāsam api jagmivān

- Mahabharata, Ashvamedha Parva, 84th Adhyaya(Chapter), (Arjuna’s campaign in south) Link

Translation:
Unvanquished in battle, the valiant son of Kunti defeated the Nishada king who proved an obstacle to the sacrifice. Having subjugated the son of Ekalavya, O king, the son of Indra, duly worshipped by the Nishadas, then proceeded towards the southern ocean. In those regions battle took place between the diadem-decked hero and the Dravidas and Andhras and the fierce Mahishakas
Link

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In the above excerpts, Andhras are mentioned distinctly from Dravidas. Kanchis, Pallhavas, Cholas, Pandyas, Keralas, Konkans, ...etc are also mentioned separately from each other. So, Dravidas seem to be very small community or caste. They did not even occupy entire TN, leave alone entire South-India. TN region itself has Cholas, Pandyas, Kanchis and Dravidas.
Last edited by johneeG on 10 Apr 2013 17:14, edited 2 times in total.

johneeG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3473
Joined: 01 Jun 2009 12:47

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 10 Apr 2013 11:22

continued:
Some later day excerpts:
अन्ध्रा द्रविडा कर्नाटक केरला आदि प्रभेदतः
श्रुङ्गेरी अधिना देशस्ते ह्यवचेदि गवस्थितः

- Adi Shankara’s Mahanushasanam or Mathamnaya Sethu. (in 8th century CE)

निजपादसरोजसेवनायै विनयेन स्वयमागतान अत अन्ध्रान |
अनुगृह्य सवेन्कटचलेशं प्रणिपत्य अपविधर्भराजधनिम् ||

- Madhaviya Shankara Vijayam. (By Vidyaranya of Sringeri in14th century CE)

By this time(8th century CE), the word Dravida seems to be used as a synonym for the TN region.

Dravidians being equated with all of south-Indians seems to be the invention of brit 'scholars'.
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How and why dravidian-ism was established in India?

In fact, all south-Indians are NOT dravidians. Telugus call TN as Dravida-desham. Telugus don't see Kannadas as Dravidians and I don't think Kannadas see Telugus as Dravidians.

It seems to me that all the people residing in TN are NOT dravidians.

Dravida was just like Pandya or Chola. Are all Tamilians Pandyans? Are all Tamilians Cholas? Then, how can all Tamilians be Dravidians?
Are all South-Indians Pandyans? Are all South-Indian Cholas? Then, how can all south-Indians be Dravidians?

MB describes Dravidians, Andhras, Pandyas, Cholas, Keralas, Sinhalas, and many more. Dravidians are one among many. This identity has been foisted upon entire TN. Then, it is being tried to foist it upon entire South-Indians. Link to a post quoting MB

This attempt has been going on for quite some time. It started with Justice Party. And yes, Justice party was the vehicle of few powerful landowning castes in Madras Presidency area in British India. Justice party started of as essentially a castist party with an anti-brahmin ideology. The anti-brahmin feelings had two foundations:
a) perception of brahmins acquiring all the opportunities
b) Aryan invasion theory.

Justice Party was formed on the basis of AIT. Justice Party seems to be a brit sponsored movement.

From 1890s onwards, brits were facing heat from the Indian independence movement which was increasing turning aggressive and assertive. Bengal and Punjab seem to be the centers of the Indian independence movement.

In 1905, brits planned to divide Bengal to appease the muslims in the eastern Bengal region. This decision became a flashpoint and caused the Indian independence movement to unify.

Brits were controlling India through two mechanisms:
a) army
b) IAS

Army was dominated by Sikhs and Muslims. Muslim League was asking for a separate country for Muslims. At the same time, brits were also sowing the ideological seeds for Khalistan. They were peddling the propaganda that Sikhism was at a threat from the Hinduism. Sikhs were being groomed as a minority separate from Hindu majority.

Immediately, seeing the threat, brits started putting up 'manchurian' candidates(or limited opponents) whose goal would be divide the Indians and distract the independence movement.

The first manchurian candidate was Muslim League. It was formed in 1906. Then, Gandhi, who was till now being ignored by the brits in South-Africa, was remembered by the brits. They started building him up. Gokhale, who was the head of Congress at that time, started grooming Gandhi to take over the mantle. There was a threat of congress passing into the hands of garam dal. Gandhi was given a victory in South-africa to give an image buildup in India.

In 1914, Gandhi started for India via London. In 1915 Gandhi reached India. Governor of India, Lord Hardinge, himself met Gandhi at his arrival in India. Gandhi was used to divert the people's attention from the revolutionaries and garam dal. While revolutionaries and garam dal were demanding complete independence, Gandhi was stuck with demand for few privileges. While revolutionaries and garam dal were advocating all kinds of actions(including outright violence and assassinations) to oust the brits, Gandhi was preaching 'ahimsa'. While revolutionaries and garam dal did not recognize the brits as legitimate rulers, Gandhi recognized the brits as legitimate rulers. While the revolutionaries and garam dal were subject to hangings or harsh punishments in places like Kalapani, Gandhi was treated with kid gloves.

At about the same time, Justice party was getting formed (1917).

IAS, it seems to me, was dominated by Tamilians and Brahmins. This domination by Brahmins of the government service was used as an excuse to initiate the Justice Party movement. At the same time, it was based on Tamil nationalism.

The movement had a moderate success because of the social conditions. People from other castes also wanted Government jobs. Social conditions are used to incite secession movements.

Ramayana was used as an AIT template. When Ravana was turned into a dravidian icon, simultaneously Lord Shiva was also converted into a 'dravidian' icon. Ravana was portrayed as a hardcore devotee of Shiva. Lord Vishnu was turned into an 'Aryan' icon. Ironically, Lord Shiva is fair complexioned and Lord Vishnu is of dark-complexion.

Anyway, this portrayal was responsible for the moderate success of Justice Party(and its derivatives like DK and DMK). Tamilnadu has a history of Shaiva-vs-Vaishnava. This sectarian schism was used to foist AIT upon the Tamilians. It was sought to make Shaivas supporters of Ravana(i.e. 'dravidian' icon).

Justice Party has a track record of opposing Home rule movement and non-cooperation movement. It adopted a general hostile stance against Indian independence movement. It seemed to prefer the brit rule rather than the 'rule of brahmins'. Eventually, Justice party lost the support of 'Dalits' who accused the party of being a vehicle of few castes(mostly, these castes were powerful landowning ones). So, Justice Party was trying to perpetuate the hegemony of some powerful landowning castes.

The eventual goal seemed to ask for a separate country for Dravida-nadu i.e. the brief of Justice Party was same as the brief of Muslim League. Both were created to delay and distract the Indian independence movement. And if that is not possible than demand for separate countries and keep India divided.

The Justice Party and its later derivatives were based on colonial EJ constructs. The leaders of these movements claimed to be atheists but focused their targets solely on Hindu literature and Hindu deities. It was essentially an anti-Hindu movement propped up by the brits/EJs. Brits wanted to use it to divide the Indians, EJs wanted to use it to divide the Hindus.

For 'Dalits', who became disenchanted with Justice Party(due to the domination of that party by the land-owning castes), Ambedkar was propped up by the brits.

The difference between Muslim league and other parties like Justice Party or Ambedkar's party is only one thing: the target audience of Muslim league were non-Hindus. They readily accepted the division from India. The target audience of Ambedkar, Gandhi and Justice Party were Hindus. All Hindus had an innate idea of being united. They had an innate idea of being Indians.

Periyar formed Dravida Kazagham in 1944. Dravida Kazagham continued to be based on AIT. Dravida Kazagham wanted a secession from India and formation of a separate country called Dravida Nadu(which would comprise of the whole region of then Madras Presidency). But, it did not participate in elections. It was supposed to be a social movement.

Dravida Kazagham was split over succession issues.

It seems to me that 'Dravida-nadu'(and many such projects) did not become a reality because:
a) Brits had to leave hastily and did not have enough time or muscle to see through the project.
b) Innate emotional and ideological connection of all Hindus/Indics(including Tamlians) with India.
c) Rejection of 'dravida-nadu' idea by non-tamilians.

Annadurai the founded DMK in 1949. In 1950s, DMK continued to demand secession from India. The main objective of the party was formation Dravidanadu(which included most of south-india). During 1950s, DMK entered electoral fray but remained largely unsuccessful. It seems non-Tamils were not happy with this Dravida-Nadu idea.

It seems to me that the domination of tamilians was not liked by other south-Indians. They were also not inclined to live in 'dravida-nadu' which was constructed on tamil nationalism. The non-tamilians south-indians were afraid that Tamil nationalism seeks to digest their cultures. So, naturally they were not very keen on this idea. This smouldering dislike was finally expressed after Independence. It started with Telugus. In an effort to protect the interests of the Telugu people in Madras Presidency, and to preserve the culture of Telugu people, Potti Sri Ramulu(Andhra Kesari) attempted to force the government to listen to public demands for the separation of the Andhra region from the Madras Presidency, based on linguistic lines and with Madras as its capital. The Government did not accede to the demands for separate state. Finally, In 1952, Potti Sri Ramulu fasted unto death demanding a separate state for Telugu speakers. The death of Potti Sri Ramulu evoked angry reactions from Telugus in Madras state and the demand for a separate Telugu state could no longer be denied. So, in 1953, a separate Telugu state was formed, but Madras city was not part of the new state. Later, Hyderabad state and the newly formed state were merged in 1956 to form Andhra Pradesh.

There is another angle also. The shaiva-vaishnava sectarian division was not as strong among Telugus as it is in Tamil society. Telugus seem to be more egalitarian within the Hindu fold. This social situation prevented AIT from making deep in roads among Telugus. Only a few land-owning castes seem to be beholden to the Justice Party and even they seem to have abandoned the movement seeing the domination of tamils. Sri Rama, in particular, is a beloved deity of Telugus. So, using Ramayana as a model for AIT, kind of backfired with Telugus, IMHO.

The separation of Telugus and the eventual formation of AP must have been a blow to idea of Dravida-Nadu. The secession dreams based on AIT of the tamil politicians with backing from certain castes was jolted. Telugus rejected the idea of living under Tamil hegemony within India.So, there was no question of them supporting 'Dravida-nadu'.

After this, the idea became relegated to the backburner slowly. But, the DMK continued to demand secession from India. In 1953 MGR joined DMK. Till then, he was the member of Congress. In 1962, the chinese invasion whipped up strong patriotic fervour throughout India. In such a situation, DMK had to abandon its stance of secession. In 1964, Nehru died. Lal Bahadur Shastri became the PM. In 1965 India fought a war with Pakistan. Lal Bahadur Shastri died of sudden heart attack in 1966 after signing peace pact with pakistan in Tashkent, USSR. There are many CTs on the sudden and mysterious death of Lal Bahadur Shastri. After his sudden death in USSR, Indira Gandhi came to power. There have always been rumours of KGB funding Indira(and rest of the Gandhis). So, it is very interesting that the death of Lal Bahadur Shastri paved the way for the power of Indira Gandhi.

DMK came to power in 1967 for the first time after its formation. It is noteworthy that DMK came to power after abandoning the demand for secession. The fact that the DMK came to power only after abandoning the demand for secession shows that there was no support for the idea of secession among Tamilians. WHY? Because they were Hindus. The same idea had succeeded when it was used by Muslim League. But, it did not succeed here.

Karunanidhi became the CM. In 1969, Annadurai died. In 1969, Madras state was renamed as Tamil Nadu.

Then, an earth-shattering event happened. BD was formed in 1971 by the military action of India. This event made the powers turn their gaze towards India in a more focused manner. Immediately all the old ghosts were resurrected.

In 1970s, Khalistan movement was formed. It seems to me that Naxalites/Maoists were made into a potent force 1971. LTTE was officially formed in 1976. Calls for dravida-nadu were replaced by calls for Ellam. The chief funders seem to be X-ians. Interestingly, the other side, the sinhalas are also ruled by x-ians. So, while the Tamils are Hindus and Sinhalas are buddhists, both are ruled by X-ians. In essence, dravida-nadu is replaced by ellam, but the idea is still the same: separate nation ruled by Tamils. It seems to me that Ellam is a crypto-Dravidian movement. There is an interesting side to this. Supporters of dravida-nadu and ellam claim that Tamils are Dravidians(in AIT). Sinhalas claim that they are Aryans(in AIT) who migrated from North-India to SL. Both of them have their identities shaped by AIT or AMT. The EJs are supported by the west and vice versa. The ultimate aim of EJs and west is to colonize the locals.

The theory of AIT/AMT is playing the role it was meant to. The same thing had happened in Africa: Tutsi Invasion Theory.

US was fighting in Vietnam from 1962 to 1975.

In 1979, Soviets started campaign in Afghanistan. Mujahideens were formed to resist the Soviets. These Mujahideens were sponsored, trained and supported by US, UK, Saudi, and China through Pakistan. Pakistan was the interface. The funds and skills acquired by pakistan during this program was diverted in its fight against India.

Khalistan movement became prominent in late 1970s and early 1980s. Khalistan movement was well-supported by the pakistan. It was seen as a retaliation for creation of BD. This was part of new thousand cut-policy by Pakistan propounded by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. In about the same time, Naxals were wrecking quite havoc in India.



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DMK came to power in 1967 for the first time after its formation. It is noteworthy that DMK came to power after abandoning the demand for secession. Karunanidhi became the CM. In 1969, Annadurai died. In 1969, Madras state was renamed as Tamil Nadu.

BD was formed in 1971. In 1972, MGR formed AIA DMK splitting the DMK. Then, in 1970s, Khalistan movement was formed. In 1974, DMK govt brought a resolution in the house urging the centre to give more autonomy to the states by amending the constitution. Essentially, DMK had officially abandoned the secession demand, but continued to pursue a policy that was nearly secessionist. Indira Gandhi implemented emergency in India from 1975-77 after her victory in the elections was called void by the courts. It was during emergency that the words 'socialist' and 'secular' were inserted into the preamble of constitution. In 1975, Shiekh Mujibur Rehman, PM of BD, is assassinated as part of coup by the BD army. All the members of his family are also killed. Only 2 daughters, who were not in BD at that time, were alive. The 2 daughters were banned from entering BD.

Wiki:
Lawrence Lifschultz has alleged that the CIA was involved in the coup and assassination, basing his assumption on the then US ambassador in Dhaka Eugene Booster.[31]


US was fighting in Vietnam from 1962 to 1975.

LTTE was formed in 1976.

Wiki:
In the early 1970s, United Front government of Sirimavo Bandaranaike introduced the Policy of standardization to rectify the the low numbers of Sinhalese being accepted into university in Sri Lanka. A student named Satiyaseelan formed Tamil Manavar Peravai (Tamil Students League) to counter this biased move. This group comprised Tamil youth who advocated the rights of students to have fair enrollment. Inspired by the failed 1971 insurrection of Janatha Vimukthi Peramuna, it was the first Tamil insurgent group of its kind. It consisted of around 40 Tamil youth, including Ponnuthurai Sivakumaran (later, the leader of the Sivakumaran group), K. Pathmanaba (one of the founder members of EROS) and Velupillai Prabhakaran, an 18 years old youth from single caste oriented Valvettithurai (VVT). In 1972, Prabhakaran teamed up with Chetti Thanabalasingam, Jaffna to form the Tamil New Tigers (TNT), with Thanabalasingham as its leader. After he was killed, Prabhakaran took over. At the same time, Nadarajah Thangathurai and Selvarajah Yogachandran (better known by his nom de guerre Kuttimani) were also involved in discussions about an insurgency. They would later (in 1979) create a separate organization named Tamil Eelam Liberation Organization (TELO) to campaign for the establishment of an independent Tamil Eelam. These groups, along with another prominent figure of the armed struggle, Ponnuthurai Sivakumaran, were involved in several hit-and-run operations against pro-government Tamil politicians, Sri Lanka Police and civil administration during early 1970s. These attacks included throwing bombs at the residence and the car of SLFP Jaffna Mayor, Alfred Duraiyappah, placing a bomb at a carnival held in the stadium of Jaffna city (now "Duraiyappah stadium") and Neervely bank robbery. 1974 Tamil conference incident also sparked the anger of these militant groups. Both Sivakumaran and Prabhakaran attempted to assassinate Duraiyappah in revenge for the incident. Sivakumaran committed suicide on 5 June 1974 to evade capture by Police. But on 27 July 1975, Prabhakaran was able to assassinate Duraiyappah, who was branded as a "traitor" by TULF and the insurgents alike. Prabhakaran himself shot and killed the Mayor when he was visiting the Krishnan temple at Ponnalai

On May 5, 1976, the TNT was renamed the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), commonly known as the Tamil Tigers

Religion was not a major factor in his philosophy or ideology, indeed the ideology of the Tamil Tigers emerged from Marxist-Leninist thought, and was explicitly secular. Its leadership professed opposition to religion.[18][19][20] Their focus was on a single-minded approach toward the attainment of an independent Tamil Eelam.


MuKa has admitted to being close to LTTE. It is interesting that MuKa claims to be an athiest. But his family is X-ian. His daughter's has close connections with EJs came out during 2G scam. The money made out of 2G scam was diverted to EJs who used it in their efforts to convert the tamils in SL and fund LTTE.

Calls for dravida-nadu were replaced by calls for Ellam. The chief funders seem to be X-ians. Interestingly, the other side, the sinhalas are also ruled by x-ians. So, while the Tamils are Hindus and Sinhalas are buddhists, both are ruled by X-ians. In essence, dravida-nadu is replaced by ellam, but the idea is still the same: separate nation ruled by Tamils. It seems to me that Ellam is a crypto-Dravidian movement. There is an interesting side to this. Supporters of dravida-nadu and ellam claim that Tamils are Dravidians(in AIT). Sinhalas claim that they are Aryans(in AIT) who migrated from North-India to SL. Both of them have their identities shaped by AIT or AMT.

The theory of AIT/AMT is playing the role it was meant to. The same thing had happened in Africa.

Tutsi Invasion Theory

The concept of Aryan Invasion theory being a handiwork of the German for the sake of proving the superiority of the European Caucasian races is not an isolated case. There exist a similar theory in other part of the world, involving other nations and other ethnicities and I wonder why hasn’t anyone yet given an attention over that.

If we see the map of middle Africa, we see two little countries named Rwanda and Burundi, bordering Zaire (or Democratic Republic of Congo). With the name Rwanda it suddenly flashes in our mind, the picture of ethnic violence, civil war, genocide and military juntas. Few Indians know the history of Rwanda or Burundi. These countries are inhabited by two different so-called ethnic groups, namely Hutu and Tutsi. The ethnic composition of these countries is as follows:

1) Rwanda – Hutu 84%, Tutsi 15%, Twa (Pygmies) 1%
2) Burundi – Hutu 85%, Tutsi 14%, Twa (Pygmies) 1%

Among these the minority Tutsis are believed to be the Hamitic people, a race which was often intermixed with the whiter races from North, particularly from Ethiopia and Egypt, which on their turn were intermixed by the Asiatic people, mainly Hittites, by the repeated invasions from the North. And these people are said to have arrived from North and thus not the native people of Rwanda.

The majority of Hutus are believed to be Bantu, the original African race which spilled out from the mid-Western African coast of Nigeria, Cameroon, Ghana, Togo, Benin, Cote d’ Ivoire and the inland countries of Burkina Faso and some other parts of the neighbouring countries.

Tutsis are considered to be the foreigners, invaders or migrants in the Rwanda-Burundi region. Hutus are said to be a much older race but not the original one. The original inhabitants of the Rwanda-Burundi region are said to be the Pygmies, who consist only 1% of the population of the region. It is said that Tutsis despite being the minorities, consider themselves superior in race and constitute the reigning elite and aristocracy of Rwanda-Burundi and they have subjugated the more indigenous Hutus from centuries and have forced them to agriculture and to the inferior position. Now, the crystallization of the theory. Hutus and Tutsis are two completely separate races, with Black Hutus forming the oppressed majority and the more original inhabitants of Rwanda-Burundi, and the fairer Tutsis forming the oppressing minority and the foreign invaders.

This accounts for a Rwandan version of the Aryan Invasion Theory, namely the Tutsi Invasion theory.

Here we have some startling parallels with the Aryan Invasion theory here. Northern Indians, namely Aryans are said to be the ultimate foreign invaders or migrants. Southern Indians, namely Dravidians are said to be the much older inhabitants of Indian sub-continent who were invaded by the Aryans and were oppressed and driven in the interiors and to the South of the Indian continent, with the ultimate consequence of being incorporated into the Hindu fold of caste system and occupying the lowest rung of Indian society. And even these so-called Dravidians are not considered as the original inhabitants of the India. There is said to be a Dravidian migration into India long before that of the Aryans, and some so-called aboriginals (such as Santhals) are considered to be the originals of India, which were forced into the jungles by the invasions, migrations of Dravidians, followed by Aryans.

About Aryan Invasion theory and the cause of its origin much has been said in this debate, and will be said in future so here I go for the explanation of Tutsi Invasion theory, its cause and origin and its socio-political consequences.

Hutus and Tutsis never as such existed as two different ethnic groups or races and were never at war with each other. The history of ethnic violence in the region began with the advent of colonialism in Africa and Rwanda-Burundi. Rwanda-Burundi was a part of German East Africa but after the World War I, it was occupied by Belgium and made a Belgian colony. It was these colonial Belgian masters of Rwanda-Burundi who started entertaining strange ethnic differences and racial differences between the two so-called different groups Hutus and Tutsis, and created the Hutu-Tutsi rift. They invented two separate races, the racist Tutsi Invasion theory and invented the divide between them, labeling Tutsis as aristocratic rulers and Hutus as the oppressed masses.

It seems that skin colour superiority is so deeply embedded in the psyche of West that they rarely get out of it.

While the Hutu and Tutsi are often considered by the followers of this Tutsi Invasion theory, as two separate ethnic groups, scholars point out that they speak the same language, have a history of intermarriage, and share many cultural characteristics. Traditionally, the differences between the two groups were occupational rather than ethnic. Agricultural people were considered Hutu, while the cattle-owning elite were identified as Tutsi. Supposedly Tutsi were tall, thin and fair, while Hutu were short, black and square, but it is often impossible to tell one from the other. (as reported by the Time Almanac)

This distinction was increased and racialized in 1933 by the Belgian government requirement that everyone carry an identity card indicating tribal ethnicity as Tutsi or Hutu, in order to play the power politics between the inhabitants of the nation and thus letting them bogged down in civil war.

Since, independence, repeated violence in both Rwanda and Burundi has increased ethnic differentiation between the groups. Some 2.5 million Tutsis and Hutus are massacred in mutual ethnic cleansing, and genocide. The usual opportunist African leaders are much common in Rwanda-Burundi and they have exacerbated the ethnic tensions of their countries by inciting the hatred between the two groups on the basis of the supposed ethnic difference between the two. Hutu leaders have described Tutsis as cockroaches and they used to telecast their views on radio during the 1994 Rwandan genocide of Tutsis, which inspired the common Hutus to massacre the Tutsis, in a bid to annihilate them completely.

So a peaceful, placid nation with a common populace was destroyed and annihilated by the colonialist, racist view of the Tutsi Invasion theory.

But why are we learning this? Because Tutsi Invasion theory has ominous parallels with Aryan Invasion theory as explained above. The cause of the origin of TIT is also the same as that of AIT. And the ethnic tension and violence was also incited between the North Indians and the South Indians. The DMK, AIADMK and all the other anti-Hindu, anti-Brahmin movements (namely the Periyar movement) were the consequence of this racist Aryan Invasion theory. If not for Hinduism and its cultural ethos, India would have gone the way of Rwanda and Burundi. (Remember, Rwandans and Burundians have been converted to Christianity) But anti-Hindu leadership of India, and the Marxist academia and media is bent on defending the Aryan Invasion theory/AMT, in league with their traitorous aims, and anti-Hindu, anti-Indian designs. By keeping the various sections of Hindu society at war with each other they can maintain their political hold over India, and AIT is a proven tool for their designs.

The opposition of AIT is derided as an emotional, chauvinist handiwork of Hindu nationalist or fundamentalists. But the difference between Tutsis and Hutus is denied by the modern genuine Western scholars (non-Witzels). Is it also a handiwork of an emotional, chauvinist Tutsi nationalists?

The answer lies in the correct reading of the indigenous history through various new tools of Science and Archaeology and the deconstruction of the colonial edifice which has so far promoted the racist theories in order to prove the White supremacy.
Link


The social conditions cannot be denied i.e. mistreatment of tamilians in SL cannot be denied. But, it seems these social conditions are being used to incite a civil war with plans for secession where both sides are weakened. The same thing had happened with justice party. Surely, there were backward castes who were being mistreated in society. These conditions were used to incite calls for 'Dravida-nadu', a secession movement. The primary goal of that movement was to undermine the Indian independence movement. And the cruel joke on the people is that the party is monopolized by few landowning castes. So, the social justice is not even fulfilled. It became vehicle for monopolizing power of few castes. Similarly, the cruel joke on Ellam is that the top layer of LTTE is X-ians. The main backers of Ellam are also X-ians.

And the role of west in this is most mischievous.


Link to original post

johneeG
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby johneeG » 10 Apr 2013 11:31

The following posts are related to the above post:
ramana wrote:AP Govt history page:

http://www.aponline.gov.in/quick%20link ... story.html


"History of Andhras" G Durgaprasad: PDF

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6138615/Andhra-History


Wiki on Reddy Kingdoms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddy_dynasty

Google books:


P. Chenchiah and Bhujanga Rao

Hisotry of Telugu Literature



Has an intor on the history of the people.


ramana wrote:Archive.org

Ancient Indian Tribes


johneeG wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Johnee G, could the reference to Keralam, Dravidas, Cholas etc because at that Time Kumari Kundam was very much in existence?


Didn't understand what you said, Aditya_V garu! Are you saying that there were all occupants of 'Kumari Kundam'?

Image

Personally, I am skeptical about this Kumari Kundam theory. Even if such a landmass existed, I really doubt it would have been as large as the picture above. I am presuming that the land would be quite small, much smaller than modern day Sri Lanka. It may be possible that modern day Sri Lanka has parts of Kumari Kundam. Because Simhalas are also listed there. And Vibhishana, the King of Ravana's golden Lanka, is mentioned separately.

Vidura describes Kashi as one Janapada and lists Uttara-Kashi as another Janapada. So, my understanding is that the term 'Janapada' refers to a town/city(with an attachment of some of villages). Kerala, Dravidas, Cholas, Pandyas, Pallhavas, Kanchis, Konkans, Andhras and Uttara-Andhras are listed. So, I am thinking that these were small towns/cities occupied by a specific community or ruled by a dynasty.

---
RamaY saar,
I got the same doubt about 'Andhraka'. But, then I noticed that sometimes the letter 'Ka' is added at the end to other communities also. So, I listed it. I am unable to find an example to illustrate it right now. Will have to search all the lists... :shock:

Yep, I know about Malladi's stand. In fact, it was Malladi's assertion that propelled me to look into references for Andhras in MB. In Udyoga Parva, Duryodhana sends Shakuni's son to Pandavas as messenger and tells him to describe his army. And Andhras find a mention in this description. So, it seems to me that Andhras fought on both sides. Or may there were more than one Andhra.

Is Kota Venkatachalem saying that,
अन्ध्र(అంధ్ర) is different from आन्ध्र(ఆంధ్ర) ?

If so, which one refers to the modern day Andhras?

shiv
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 10 Apr 2013 14:55

Kumari Kandam is pure bullshit - invented by evanjihadis.

RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 10 Apr 2013 17:05

Weird Archaeology

Enormous Cone Head Of Paracas Peru: Lost Human History Returns




Image Image

The skull does not have the sagittal suture

The Paracas skeletons were found to be around 2.6 meters high. It seems these cone-headed species were found all over in Peru, Bolivia, Chile, Mexico and Russia, as well as suggested in Egypt.

Starchild Skull



Yes, now wasn't there something about Mayasura ....

RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 10 Apr 2013 17:45

Weird Archaeology







RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 10 Apr 2013 18:21

Weird Archaeology

Artifacts of the Lost Global Civilization with Klaus Dona



@0:30:00 Mr. Dona speaks about "Pre-Sanskrit"!

Lalmohan
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 10 Apr 2013 21:08

as an aside - in some cultures cone heads are produced by binding and shaping the heads of children

RajeshA
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 10 Apr 2013 21:23

It is believed that many did so in order to emulate these naturally elongated skull hominins who often were the rulers. In the Americas in ancient cultures, these hominins formed the aristocracy, and in Egypt some aristocracy too is portrayed with elongated skulls.

By binding and shaping however one disforms the forehead often, but more importantly the volume does not increase.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby MurthyB » 11 Apr 2013 01:34

London dig turns up slice of Roman life

Phallic good luck charms, wooden buildings, an amber gladiator amulet, even documents -- all these are among a huge trove of Roman artifacts preserved by a lost river in London's financial district, archaeologists said Wednesday.


The dig is taking place in Bloomberg Place, a three-acre site in the heart of the Roman city of London and home to the Temple of Mithras, built in the 3rd century.


BTW, I looked up the wikipedia article on Mithras and Mitra (Vedic), and on the Vedic one, here is what it says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitra_(Vedic)):

There may be some relation with the Zoroastrian divinity Mithra (Miθra), possibly decending from a Proto-Indo-Iranian *mitra, "contract" or "binder". While Mitra and Mithra share many characteristics, they developed independently and should not be equated with one another. Mitra and Mithra should also not be confused with Roman Mithras, who – although nominally inheriting his name from Indo-Iranian Mithra – is a product of Roman thought :rotfl: .


I mean, is this for real? The Romans themselves atributed Mithras to Persian origins. The name Mithra and Mitra are practically identical, and are both the god of treaties, and yet they should not be confused with each other? Talk about 'digestion' and 'denial' whenever Sanskrit origins exist! If some guru here is a Wikipedia editor, perhaps they should correct this nonsense.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby shiv » 11 Apr 2013 06:06

MurthyB wrote:
I mean, is this for real? The Romans themselves atributed Mithras to Persian origins. The name Mithra and Mitra are practically identical, and are both the god of treaties, and yet they should not be confused with each other? Talk about 'digestion' and 'denial' whenever Sanskrit origins exist! If some guru here is a Wikipedia editor, perhaps they should correct this nonsense.


This is the scholarly version of the Pakistani "Hindus are short and eat rice " - a story carried so far that it has become truth for Pakis. Linguists have reached so many bullshit conclusions and are teaching the same crap in so many universities that this nonsense comes up everywhere.

As a general rule I can say that if there is a "linguistic explanation" for anything - watch out - its a load of rubbish and if you find desis playing linguistics for OIT - they are making a mistake. Too much bullshit has gone on in linguistics that it is difficult to tell what is science and what is mumbo jumbo. Historians and linguists have borrowed from each other and applied fake history to linguistics and cooked up linguistic data to concoct history.

Mithra and Mitra are identical. They are different only in English

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby Lalmohan » 11 Apr 2013 12:46

rajesh - you are probably refering to pharoah akhenaten - he had a particular disease which creates that condition (and other features, e.g. feminine body frame, distended belly, etc.), also seen in some of his family members. i forget the name of the condition, perhaps shiv knows.

re roman london - mithras was a very major diety in roman britain, and was a 'civilising god' that displaced the wild and wooly blue painted naked celtic warrior's gods. the location "Temple" in london is where one of the major temples to mithras used to be. there was also something called a tauroboleum - where high ranking romans would go into a ceremonial pit and a bull would be slaughtered above them and the blood allowed to flow into the pit to bathe the dignitary

as for linguistics - i dont think the theories account for 'chaos effects' - i.e. the flow and change of language can occur through more chaotic means and not predictable directional flows. just look at the flow of american origin words in the english language which are now spreading around the world...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth

Postby RajeshA » 11 Apr 2013 14:32

Lalmohan wrote:rajesh - you are probably refering to pharoah akhenaten - he had a particular disease which creates that condition (and other features, e.g. feminine body frame, distended belly, etc.), also seen in some of his family members. i forget the name of the condition, perhaps shiv knows.


Lalmohan ji,

It is said that Nefertiti, Akhenaten's chief wife, also had an elongated skull.


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