Statewide and National runup to 2014 General elections

[rkirankr]

I am not a regular contributor, but this religious discussion around Shiva and Vishnu in the National Elections thread is OT ... my 2p...

Completely agree. Let us discuss politics onlee

[Singha]

the system is rotten. in the bangladesh border, every night dozens of cattle are driven across and sold for 3 times the price here. the BSF occasionally shoot someone to show they are doing something but otherwise get a cut of the proceeds from all types of smuggling - bikes, medicines, cows you name it - its mostly always cheaper in india.

ask anyone who lives in WB or Assam border what the true picture of national security is over there.

BSF even extort money from local indians like a guy could be going in a bike, BSF will stop and ask for papers which if not perfectly in order will result in a accusation of being a bike smuggler and a bribe.

[Klaus]

If KJP decides to build on its base in KA toward the 2014 polls, it is perhaps indicative of a third-front fancying its chances. A coalition of parties, which would normally support either BJP or INC at the center now might come together. Perhaps this is the reason why we are not hearing too many 'noises of approval' from AIADMK, TMC and NCP. The shrillest noises are coming from Mulla yadav, perhaps a deal in the works with LKA to bury defense scams of the former?

Even Pawarful fancies his chances at the PM-ship and any one of these sundry parties could have incited the KJP and JD(U) fracas.

I once used to think that all parties under the Janata banner/umbrella/label coming together in a grand coalition would be good for the nation and would be a logical conclusion of the Emergency times, not anymore. Perhaps it was my naivete.

[mraghu]

If Namo has a strategy for KA, then it has to be centered around Yeddi. Otherwise there is no hope for BJP here. North of tumkur is completely centered around Yeddi and team. they have the votes to damage BJP but not the votes to Win. Leaving Ananth kumar in the saddle is suicidal for BJP...

[Supratik]

he's not an atheist. he does not go out of the way to destroy anybody's god.

Who is going out to destroy other people's Gods? Also I believe many of the intellectuals he met like Karnad are avowed leftists who would want a reversal of what they claim is "saffronization".

[Klaus]

Interesting factoid: The last time Nawaz Sharif came to power in TSP (1990 and 1997), India had third front governments with INC as the party providing outside support. Both governments in India were created and dissolved within a span of 2 years or less. What followed was PVNR in the first case and ABV in the second.

I believe the trans-national networks and capital flows are leading in the same direction again, events in one part of the sub-continental sapta-sindhu system have a way of influencing events in other river basins. Some other regional political outfit is going to have to pay a steep political price this time around, all the better if the overall health of the nation improves.

[member_20317]

Klaus ji, every 10 years India becomes confused, then they search for a clear mandate.

....................

CM moving around with hindu baiters would still chalta hai.

But I fail to understand how come, in day to day administration 'Devaru and Dindaru' are found wanting compared to 'Girish Karnad and other poets etc' in advising the CM. What will Girish Karnad teach the CM that he already does not know of? Though this CM i hear can get forced into things like pujas to avoid Rahu Kalam.

The thing about lawyers is at least the guy form one side is lying. Often lawyers from both sides lie.

[vivek.rao]

Govt. has to keep the religion and state separate.

Even being RSS pracharak, Modi realized the dangers of letting VHP/BajrangDal/RSS run the show in Gujarat. He kept away these elements from interfering in administration and focused on Governance. That is the definition of true secularism. At the same time, don't appease any group whether it is minority or non-minority.

The general trend as we have seen by SONIA and her gang or idiots like Mulyam, Laloo, Maya or YSR is to start with communal divide. How to put up one group against other? Caste or Religious divisions. How to increase the chasm?
How to let the terrorists go f they belong to Muslims?
How to appease the church and let the churches guide their voters at the time of elections?
How to route the benefits to one community or the other?
How to select people solely based on communal considerations and make sure symbolic acts are used to divert the attention of people to mis-Governance?
Select a woman as President and proclaim that it is the win for women's rights.
Promote a person purely on communal considerations to show how they will promote their interest.

Unfortunately, Indians think that a just society means a big Govt. sitting on top and spreading benefits to their group.

My friend who is a strong Congi supporter was crying about how he can't get any workers sicne most of them are content to back to their village and get 100/day free money and lazy it out.

He still does not have a clue why this is not people's problem but it the dangerous policies of Sonia's clan and NAC clan that is contributing to the decay of this nation.

[Sanku]

Gulab Chand Kataria to be targeted by CBI for Soharabuddin Bull shit case.

SSC to be targeted like Yeddi was.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/mp-prime-lan ... 3-236.html

CBI is on over drive.

=============================================================

Mullah I Yam pitches in

5.50 pm: UP Police to challenge acquittal of Varun Gandhi by trial courts in two hate speech cases of Pilibhit.
While the CJM court's order would be challenged in sessions court before May 25, an appeal would be filed in high court against the sessions court order.


Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/brea ... 70928.html

[AjayKK]

BJP not to contest Howrah Lok Sabha by-poll

Kolkata: In a move perceived as an overture to Trinamool Congress, BJP on Tuesday decided not to fight the Howrah Lok Sabha by-election on the "advice" of party national president Rajnath Singh, a few days after it declared its candidate for the constituency.

The party, however, denied that the decision had been aimed at electorally helping Trinamool Congress.

A party source said the decision not to contest the by-election, slated for June 2, had been taken by the party's state election committee, a day after BJP national president Rajnath Singh telephoned state unit chief Rahul Sinha and discussed the matter.

Lok Sabha by-poll: Controversial ex-MP Vitthalbhai Radadiya is BJP man in Porbander

BJP today cleared controversial former MP Vitthalbhai Hansrajbhai Radadiya, who drew flak for a gun-toting incident, as the party's nominee for the bypolls in Porbandar Lok Sabha seat in Gujarat. ered against him for threatening the toll plaza staff after his actions were caught on camera.

His son Jayesh Radadiya has also been given the party ticket for the Jetpur Assembly by-election, which he won in the last assembly polls on a Congress ticket.

The party also cleared the name of Haribhai P Chaudhary from Banaskantha Lok Sabha seat in the state.

So, June 2 LS bypolls in Howrah, Porbandar and Banaskantha and results on June 5. Most likely, the BJP and TMC candidates are going to be home.

Btw, MMS is to file Rajya Sabha papers today and will go to his 'adopted home state' Assam to file the papers.

Also, the UPA 2 completes 4 years today with 1 more year to go ( or perhaps come back ). For the birthday, print and news media are happy after being given "Bharat Nirman" cakes.

[RajeshA]

What are the chances that BJP for winning in Assembly seat Piriyapatna, Karnataka, where its candidate Sannamoge Gowda died of a cardiac arrest on April 29 and the election had to be postponed for the seat to May 28?

It can determine whether BJP would be the main opposition party in Karnataka Assembly or whether JD(S) would retain that position. Right now both parties are tied at 40 seats each but JD(S) had more votes.

[shaardula]

periyapatna western most part of mysore. mostly agri & forests. gowdas, scs and sts. which means more inc and jds type of electorate. stones throw away from kushalnagara. they bus workers from here to farms in madikeri. a neighbour who works as a manager in one of those farms was complaining about the organization of labour. having said that madikeri itself went bjp.

the sitting guy inc is already very rich. already own lots of land in periyapatna and multiple properties in blr, and mysore, including one near my home, back home.

[RajeshA]

shaardula ji,

thanks for the info!

[johneeG]

This is an OT post, but just to finish the point I was making...

Of course, it is well-known that anything and anyone connected to Hinduism is in the crosshairs and will be targeted for real or perceived faults. Even while, there is a conspicuous silence when it comes to abrahan cults.

Infact, the agenda is to equate Hinduism to a superstition. They seek to portray Hinduism as nothing more that superstition. They carefully avoid any such exposure of abrahan cults. This careful portrayal has given rise to interesting trend: many non-X-ist people in desh actually believe that abrahan cults(particularly X-ism) does not believe in 'superstitutions'.

What does superstitution mean?
For example, supersitution can mean ghosts. Many hindus, after being constantly exposed to MSM propaganda, think that X-ists do not believe in ghosts! Or other such superstitions.

It is a supreme irony because, initially, X-ists used to be called by the Greeks as narrow-minded superstitious idiots. Even today, in west, X-ists are looked at as silly and superstitious. But, in desh, they are given an aura being 'progressive' and 'liberal'.

From the brits times, EJs have been trying to claim the successes of west as successes of their theology. They hide the fact that west started progressing only after it started giving up that theology. And theology had desperately opposed the scientific development. When the theology had reigned supreme for atleast 700 years, Europe was in dark ages. And to impose such superstitions, the knowledge was complete removed from public domain. Ignorance was deliberately perpetuated. Libraries were burnt. Any moderately intelligent or educated person(particularly women) were persecuted on one pretext or the other.

Dark ages started to end when Europe was exposed to oriental ideas through the jihadis. Finally, Europe was enlightened when they where directly in contact with oriental. Europe had to wage a long struggle against the X-ist ideology to obtain freedom from most silly superstitions imposed by it on the society. It is in this background that most of the present Europe(and White America) must be viewed. Ideas and concepts like liberalism, or feminism, or science being atheistic, or secularism were developed to combat the superstitious and narrow-minded theology.

But, in desh, most of these concepts have no relevance. For example, science was never seen as an antonym to religion in desh. Particularly, in Hinduism, knowledge and religion went hand in hand. At least, in case of buddhism, one can claim that perhaps the war-sciences were neglected(or even actively sought to be discouraged). But, there is no such thing in case of Hinduism.

So applying these Europe centric(particularly in the backdrop of the X-ist antics) concepts to desh is a great mistake.

Even in Europe, these concepts themselves take extremist positions. Perhaps, it is done to counter the X-ist extremism. But, most often, they end up being clones of X-ism. For example, communism. Communism is very much similar to X-ism with omission of god, godson, eternal heaven/hell and sin. Same thing applies to other such concepts and ideas which originated in Europe(or White US).

In short, they are unable to break through the mental-framework that X-ism has enforced on them. Even when they create a new cult, it ends up being very similar in essential thought process to that of X-ism. This is happening because X-ism had eliminated all the alternatives. So, there is no alternative idea from which inspiration can be taken.

It is precisely here that the importance of Indic religions lies. Indic religions are perhaps the only alternate model to the Abrahan cults. And are the last resort to all those who want to break free from the abrahan model of thinking. It was not at all coincidence that the grip of watikan started weakening as mango people of the Europe(and White US) were exposed to the Indic philosophies.

I think the only ideologies that are still capable of mounting intellectual, philosophical and social challenge to abrahan model are Indic ones(particularly Hinduism). arbahan models have always relied on eliminating their opposition rather than defeating them. And generally, they try to eliminate the opposition by warming up to the people in power(or by installing their people in power) and/or by deception. When they are in powerful position, they resort to direct action. When are in a weak position, they resort to deception. The same model is being implemented in desh.

Link to original post

X-posting a previous post by Surasena garu in reply to the post of Anand K:

The Arab invasions of Egypt, Western Roman Empire, Persia and Chinese Central Asia resulted in a lot of literature which discussed the religious zealotry and an analysis in their own theological terms. The Copts saw the Arabs as instruments of deliverance from Chaldean Church, the Roman church saw it as a punishment for human sins and the Persian sources explicitly mention the religious aspect. The invasion followed the heels of two devastating plagues and a terrible war with Sassanids.... so it fitted with apocalyptic views of Semitic faiths. The Buddhists OTOH also came up with some interesting Mahakal literature; fringe sects but still significant. IIRC the Mihirakula campaign against the Buddhists did produce some texts which discusses the religious zealotry but did the Turk scourge which swept Buddhism away from Kabul to the Meghna produce such analysis?

Similarly, is there any detailed analysis by Hindu sources on the foreign zealotry..... if not by the Arabs, the Turks at least? I mean, in a religious and social perspective? Someone must have noted the new "drives" and the fact that the invaders have mixed demographics and distinctly different social classes (versus their own caste dominated armies)? I mean, it is generally accepted that by the 7th century AD caste system had lost a lot of flexibility...

PS: What did the Jews of 7th-8th centuries think of the Muslims..... I mean, theologically. They were a diaspora by then and did not need to cast them as another Nebuchadnezzar, but still......

Surasena's reply:

The only real challenge to the mata-s based on unmAda has, for a long time, been that of the bhArata-s. Hence, we are not surprised that they have a particular fear of the dharma and work hard to exterminate it. In this regard ekanetra had asked if historically the unmAda-s understood their shared doctrinal weakness when confronted with the robustness of the dharma. This question was particularly pertinent because the general opinion has been that until the late 1800s (e.g. Vakimchandra Chattopadhyay) the Hindus had no proper understanding of the unmAda-s. At least the sister group of the bhArata-s, the yavana-s had a Celsus or a Julian who had produced devastating critiques of the unmAda. But Hindus were not known to have any such. If this were the case, then how could the unmatta-s feel threatened by the dharma. This prompted us to narrate to ekanetra the case of the relatively obscure internal critiques that arose in the West Asian and European realms, long after the tragic demise of the brave Julian, wherein rare philosophers saw through the madness gripping their people. We had earlier alluded to the Georgios Plethon Gemistos in the Byzantine world of pretonmAda-s. Not only did he see the delusion gripping the Greeks but he also realized that it was not different from the marUnmAda gripping his neighbors. But several centuries before him there was an internal critique right in the maru from Abu al-Husayn Ahmad ibn Yahya ibn Ishak al-Rawandi, which is of interest for multiple reasons, one of which is how the transmission of an Indic critique touched a raw nerve simultaneously across all the mata-s based on unmAda.

What ever little is known of al-Rawandi makes a fairly interesting tale, which while commonly known in educated circles, is still worth retelling (One may profitably consult the works of Sarah Stroumsa to glean useful information regarding him). His father was a Judaist and Talmudic scholar, who as a Dhimmi during the Arab conquest of Iran, was obliged to convert to Islam. Moving from one Abrahamism to another with much ease, with a new convert’s zeal, he started a program of refuting Judaic texts and favoring Mohammedanism. His son Abu al-Husayn was well schooled by his father in Koran and Hadiths and was on his way to being a good Mohammedan. However, he drifted away, first moving to the mu’tazilI system of semi-rational Mohammedanism, followed by a stint as a Shia, and then becoming a Manichaean. Finally, he gave up all prophetic Abrahamisms and compiled a piercing critiques of these cults, and thoroughly exposed their shallowness. The Mohammedans termed him al-zindIq and al-mulHid, which are supposed to mean a materialist or atheist who rejects the religions of the book. Indeed an Islamic apologist says about him: “We have never heard anyone defame the creator (i.e. the Abrahamistic mono-deity) and make fun about him as much as this cursed one (i.e. al Rawandi) did.”

Not surprisingly, his refutation of the Abrahamism, titled the Kitab al-Zumurrud (or the emerald) does not survive in totality. However, we have fragment of it preserved within an Islamic apology written by a Shia hAshIshin (Assassin) missionary to counter it. The point of interest to us here is his presentation of the critique of prophetic religions that was developed by the barAhima or brAhmaNa-s. Now some western arabologists have tried to deny that barAhima meant brAhmaNa-s or have tried to claim that al Rawandi put words into brAhmaNa-s’ mouths because he was afraid to claim them as his own. These attempts suggest that there is still an underlying fear among the followers of unmAda-mata-s to accept that these critique came from the brAhmaNa-s. After all, unlike some imaginary group, they are still very much alive and can still undermine the philosophical foundations of the unmAda-mata-s. Indeed, this denial is a part of the continuum of trying to deny the Hindu traditions when confronted with their superior robustness (it should be noted that a tangled skein connects some of these arabologists to the indologists like the mahAbhagabhakShakI from Chicago and her relatives). However, a closer look clearly re-affirms the fact that the barAhima were indeed brAhmaNa-s and not anything else, and the critique was not put into their mouths but came from them. First, in the 900s al-Qasim ibn Ibrahim clearly states that the barAhima are from al-Hind. This establishes that the Arabic writer were talking about Indians not any one else as some western arabologists have tried to claim. Second, as Stroumsa indicates, the Persian mullah Taj al-Din ash-Shahrastani furnishes the term “barAhima sumaniyya aShhAb al-budUd”; thus, clarifying that the brAhmaNa-s and shramaNa-s (bauddha-s) were the categories of idol worshipers. Other Islamic authors place the al-budUd, i.e. the idol-worshipers in al-Hind (the term bud-shikhan or buddha-buster is a general term used by Mohammedans for their iconoclastic ghAzI-s). So it is quite clear that the Moslems were indeed referring to the brAhmaNa-s and bauddha shramaNa-s, whose lands they were intruding into and thus coming in direct contact with them. Third, independently of al-Rawandi, we find the mention of the barAhima as refuting the prophetic religions in both Islamic and non-Islamic Abrahamistic sources, such as the work of the Judaic apologist Dawud ibn Marwan al Muqammash. Among the Judaic and Islamic sources we also have Sa’adya and al-Qasim ibn Ibrahim, which appear to be independent of that of al-Rawandi. All these sources are distinct but consistent with the statement that the barAhima reject the truth claims of all Abrahamistic prophets and refute the idea the word of a prophet can have soteriological value. These observations, taken together, make it clear that indeed the refutation of the prophetic religions was composed by the brAhmaNa-s: it was lapped up by al-Rawandi and extensively utilized in his own refutation of the Abrahamism, even as the barAhima refutation was attacked by apologists of all three Abrahamistic cults.

Now looking at what survives of the barAhima refutation of prophetism, it is clear that the Arabic writers are talking about sAmkhya-yoga and vedAnta based ideas which were philosophies of the Hindus. It is notable that al-Rawandi, who was well familiar with the related Greek Neoplatonic thought, especially via its late survival in the city of Harran, refers to the brAhmaNa-s. This, strengthens the idea that he was specifically referring to the philosophy taught by brAhmaNa-s and not a general transmission of this type acquired via the Neoplatonists. The fundamental barAhimA critique of prophetism presented by the Arabic writers is rather destructive (effectively showing their mata-s to be delusions): “If prophets are sent to preach adherence to things that can be established by the use of intellect then the prophets are just like ordinary people. If, of the other hand, they come to preach what contradicts those things – god has made those things to be perceived as proofs; they will not suit anything else except through the altering/perversion of the intellect itself.” The Abrahamistic writers also mention that the brAhmaNa-s denied a role for prophetic declarations (as seen in the pretonmAda and marUnmAda) in determining reward and punishment (i.e. puNya and pApa of Hindus being independent of the prophetic assignment of someone to either to hellfire or 72 girls and 28 boys).The primary thesis of the barAhima presented in the Islamic world by multiple Islamic apologists (Sunni and Shia) is entirely consonant with the idea of j~nAnayoga which widely encountered in Indian advaita vedAnta and bauddha circles. They view it with much fear because, as noted above, the barAhima view of j~nAna alone being the instrument for soteriology fundamentally overturned the principle of a prophet’s direct line to the Abrahamistic mono-deity: From the Stroumsa’s work one can glean at least 12 Mohammedan authors writing polemics against the barAhima-inspired refutation of Islam introduced into their world by al-Rawandi. This continued long after the death of al-Rawandi and well after the army of Islam had erased the Hindus from the Western expanses of Greater India. Importantly, this fear was not restricted to the Mohammedan – interestingly we find similar reactions from the paleo-Abrahamism to the barAhima, with at least 5 polemical Judaic authors taking up their refutation of prophetism, along similar lines to that of the Sunni and the Shia. Much of this mirrors the earlier attack by the pretAcharin-s on the yavana pagans (e.g. Origen apology for the shavamata and his attack on Celsus). This strongly supports the contention that the fear of the dharma among the prophetic monotheists is a dangerous one. These attacks might also be leveled in a slightly modified form against the secular neo-Abrahamism which emanates from the prophets Marx and Engels (whom DD Kosambi venerated in a very Abrahamistic fashion as the “nUtana-mAnava-samAja-nirmANakAra-s). That is why we see the liberal Marxists studiously avoid any presentation of the true import of al-Rawandi’s attack on Abrahamism.

Finally, we might ask a question as to how did the knowledge of the brAhmaNa-s reach al-Rawandi. Much after his time, when the accursed Mahmud Ghaznavi was leading the army of Islam against the Hindus, Al-Biruni remarks that the Hindus had “scattered like atoms” their scholars had retreated from the western domains of Greater India. But before the cataclysm of Mahmud, we know that the Hindu presence was still strong in the western domains of bhArata even as the rAjpUt-s stanched the Arabic jihad. However, the jihadic pustules were already scarring lands of the sindhu and bAhlika giving opportunity for transmissions of Indic knowledge to the Mohammedans. The preservation of transmissions to multiple Islamic and Judaic sources around al-Rawandi’s and his Manichaean teacher al Warraq’s times suggest the transmission itself happened before their times. It was probably via a Manichaean or Judaic informant (given that al-Rawandi’s own family had been Judaic before conversion to Mohammedanism). From the location of the early sources in Iran and their association with what is now northwestern Afghanistan, we suspect that brAhmaNa-s were from gandhAra or bAhlika rather than the sindhu. In this context we might look into the case of two other men who gained freedom from Islam. The first of these, the mathematician Abu’ al Abbas al-Iranshahri from Persia, is mentioned by al-Biruni as being influenced by Hindu thought and he subsequently gave up Islam. He then went on to propose his own religion that was based on a Indic model of sAmkhya with several Iranian elements incorporated into that framework. He in turn inspired the physician and chemist Abu Bakr al Razi (from Ragha near Tehran), who too gave up Islam and took to the study of Neoplatonism preserved by the Harran school and Hindu thought. From that point on he started describing himself as a Neoplatonist or a Pythagorean, but he also incorporated the saMkhya theory in his view of the origin of the world. He states: “The world originated with consciousness uniting with matter. Through higher knowledge the consciousness recognizes is its identity as itself and not as as matter. This he declared is the ultimate wisdom that releases consciousness from the bonds of matter.” He also declared that the divine inspiration is innate in all organisms, including non-human ones and does not require additional revelation of divine directives from prophets. Thus, he too declared the prophet Abrahmisms as invalid truth claims. Here too, not just the Islamic authors but also the Judaist theologian Maimonides declare al Razi as a dangerous heretic, again illustrating the alignment of basic Abrahamistic thought. What we observe from this is that not just al Rawandi and but also al Iranshahri and al Razi lapsed from Islam under the influence of Hindu thought. Given their links with the North-Western Afghanistan, it again points to Hindu thought being transmitted via that route. The case of these early refuters of Abrahamism parallels the much later rejection of Islam by the Mogol tyrant Akbar under the influence of Hindu scholars and his Hindu friend bIrbal. Thus,we see two related phenomena play repeatedly over several centuries: 1)The re-acquisition of heathen thought, Hindu and Greek, cured several Abrahamists. This process involved a lapse from Islam towards more robust heathen constructs. 2) Specifically in the zones were Hindus came in close proximity with Moslems there were brAhmaNa refutations of Islam that today are only preserved in Arabic sources but had a strong effect on not just Islam but even Abrahamisms with whom the Hindus were not directly in proximity. This reinforces our view that the West will be unable to critique the religion of peace seriously as long as it does not give up the religion of love at all levels. As a corollary the otherwise disunited Abrahamisms could align against the dharma because they all recognize it as a fundamental problem from their stand point. This lies at the heart of issue which has been diagnosed by Malhotra in his “desert” versus “forest” dichotomy. Finally, we might point out that some of Arun Shourie’s eminent historians claimed that Islam influenced the Hindus during the consolidation of shaMkarAdvaita. As we can see here there is influence no doubt, but the direction was opposite, and it clearly confronted rather than conformed to Abrahamisms.

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/5030/

Link to original post

[shaardula]

john, the mistake being made is mistaking the obscurantism of the yeddi types as some sort of enlightened self practice. it is not. no samkhyakaari he is.

on the otherside, having lived in american south, and having had my share usually unsolicited exposure to religious types here, i can say with full confidence that the image of christianity in india is over inflated its a bubble, much like markets & real estate, that is waiting to be burst. but this bursting cannot happen by people who feel the urge to defend the likes of nityananda, spells & casts etc. and those, un-deracinated minds, who ironically, try to forcefit a mythical mysticsm to the practice of hinduism, through their elaborate theoretical justifications.

there is more than enough material in the daily practice of common hindus that can burst this bubble. simple stuff that can be discussed in plain language using common experience as allegories is more than enough. the articulation has to be honest thats all.

the problem of the "defenders", they go all the way back to some obscure theory and archaic language and conceptual constructs to make a case for our practices. i call them obscure & archaic, because in practical terms majority of the population is distant from the text & the literary ,even though the daily practice is close to the spirit & essence of the texts. the essence is already described in common terms and well understood and universally practiced. the insistence here is saying no-no you dont know hinduism until you know my language and my theories. effort here is wasted in restating the minutiae, instead of leveraging the wide spread, practice of day-to-day spirituality that already exists.

the problem is not religion. nobody is diffident about their gods.

the problems are social & day-to-day transactional problems. few people jump from maariyamma to mary because of pedagogical reasons. even with the social problems, the basic elements are dialectical it does not matter if it is a christian, muslim or hindu society. in the big picture of things, this will never change, irrespective which society you live in. but at the individual level, the alternative is sometimes the only option left. if you for example think the christianity of blacks is same as that of the southern whites, you are mistaken. for the blacks, it was just a matter of establishing a common platform from which they could make their case. their day-to-day practice of jesus is african in spirit, more bhakti, the joy of the moment type of a thing. for the whites the experience is more colonial, way to obtain social credo, way to reach heaven - that type of a thing. even if they all call themselves baptist.

but that was africa, without a coherant framework. for us compassionate bhakti might be a better option than enlightened textualism.

[shaardula]

we have basic problem teaching people to read & write, we are going to establish "dharma" by educating people on the classics and the fundamentals? you think anybody other than us idiots here is interested in such stuff?

[shaardula]

there is a really funny case of a swami visiting a dalit colony to prove his street cred & compassion. what does he do when he is there? he takes it upon himself to teach them the proper way to perform poojas on their gods. really, seriously swami saar, that is what is lacking in their lives, the minutiae of protocols? being the decent people they are, people of this hamlet listened to his holiness with folded arms from this ear, did all the maryaada that they could muster, and then once he was gone, let it go from the other, and reverted back to their practice once he was gone.

[Sanku]

^^ No they needed Beef and cheap booze. That is what the poor need.

http://archive.deccanherald.com/Content ... 615388.asp


http://www.coastaldigest.com/index.php/ ... r-for-poor

Bangalore, May 15: A day after announcing freebies costing Rs 4,409 crore, Chief Minister Siddaramaiah is understood to have directed the State Excise Department to explore the possibility of introducing a “cheap and safe” liquor brand for the poor and labour class.
Siddaramaiah said on Tuesday, after a meeting with heads of almost all departments, that the poor, especially the labour class, had been hit hard ever since arrack was banned in the State. They had been forced to depend on expensive liquor. He, therefore, directed the officials to prepare a detailed report on the cheap liquor brand and submit it to the government.

Beef and cheap booze -- not to mention dole on some dirt scratching project is what the poor need.

Dharma, development, progress are all silly pretensions of people like us. Yes Sir.

Long live congress, down with India and Indians and Hinduism.

[shaardula]

if you are saying beef eating & liqiour is against dharma, then i have nothing more to say to you sir.

some write code & and push files for liquor, others vote. just because i drink late harvest, full bodied distills from exotic hillsides from across the world does not make me any holier than local sap samplers. it is our obscurantism that has made beef a taboo. there are good honest people world over who eat beef & other meats. in all honesty, i cannot say their food habits have muddled their sense of decency or humanity. iirc both tendulkar & lka have had beef.

i hope you dont wear a leather belt or carry a leather wallet or have a leather upholstery.

[RamaY]

if you are saying beef eating & liqiour is against dharma, then i have nothing more to say to you sir.

some write code & and push files for liquor, others vote. just because i drink late harvest, full bodied distills from exotic hillsides from across the world does not make me any holier than local sap samplers. it is our obscurantism that has made beef a taboo. there are good honest people world over who eat beef & other meats. iirc both tendulkar & lka have had beef.

i hope you dont wear a leather belt or carry a leather wallet or have a leather sofa.

This is like mixing so many things at so many levels....

[shaardula]

sorry rama, have only one level. some poorva janma prarabhda perhaps, but cannot grasp things at your level of nuance and detail. i bet there is some hifalutin, smart-assy wordsmithery that somebody has already written, already exists and can be repurposed for the purpose at hand to understand these things, sorry dont know them. i bet this can all only be unmixed though deep study of ancient texts as it is otherwise not be grasped in common language or by common sense and so at this late stage in life, with neither the aptitude nor the patience for deep study, i'm left with no choice but to revert to my worldly ways.

note to you, if you stand for elections, please give me cheap desi liquor, and i will vote for you. you all can then propagate your greater ideals from your higher pedestals. i wonder why yedi & reddy didnt think about this. i bet their dharma came in their way.

[Sanku]

if you are saying beef eating & liqiour is against dharma, .

Saar, the discussion was on what poor needed. Since you support Siddu and think congress winning in Kkta is a good thing, going by your past points, of pooh paahing the points raised such as development orientation (it is mercantlile), change is status quo (we are happy as we are) etc -- I though you would support these steps.

Am I wrong in thinking that you dont find promotion of beef eating, cheap booze, all paid for by state dole Kosher? After all it follows naturally from all the above points.

This is the studied view of Congress CM who is no doubt perceptive on such matters -- Yes I think it is terrible, but we have already established that I am one of the crowd who anyway does not have the pulse?

So why are you upset (as I perceive) at my slowly achieved understanding of how clueless I was (along with others) on what poor want and how what poor want is so ably shown by, distribution of dole, cheap booze and cow slaughter. These are after all chief tasks of the state as shown by the urgency in handing to poor what they need?

Do you think Siddu can also persuade beef to be right to food program? I think that would really take off congresses fortunes in Kkta and elsewhere?

[abhishek_sharma]

>> note to you, if you stand for elections, please give me cheap desi liquor, and i will vote for you.

I guess that explains the sorry state of our politics. Congratulations!

[shaardula]

#1. never said anything about poor. you are the one confounding poverty with other issues. people from all sorts of backgrounds are poor. not all of them face the same problems.
#2. you think, bhajpa has some exclusive rights to development orientation in ka?
#3. state is not promoting anything. state is only lifting artificial restrictions and reverting to the conditions that existed before bjp. state didnot lose anything either dharmically or economically because of that earlier nor is it likely to lose anything in future. a good number of people have previously been previously been claimed to have attained their dharmic mokshas irrespective of their food habits. and i dont have reason to doubt that same will be the case in future.
there are tanners and shephards and others involved in animal husbandry in the state. just like IT and chemicals & other industries would want relaxation of regulations & tax waivers, so would the animal husbandry industry. i dont know if you know, but textiles is an important industry for ka. there is no reason for ranipet to have a monopoly on tanning. others can try their hand at industry to the best of their abilities.
#4. ka has a strict policy on animal sacrifice for religious purpose. that has not been reverted.
#5. i have no special love for siddu. even less for congress. but having followed him & his ilk and people he follows for ages, his election is a relief especially when compared to hdk & bsy. that is uncharitable. honestly, siddu as a man harks back to days of ramakrishna hegde. bulk of congress not.

#6. if people want to eat, they will eat. not my place to tell people what to eat.

[shaardula]

sanku, earnest apologies. not articulate as you guys. ka not being mercantile is true. writing in ka, or even spoken language, irrespective who writes/says it, does not articulate efficiency. pine for justice we do. not efficiency. in kannada writing, leaking is seen as unjust not inefficient. from my own experience, its only through reading stuff in english and through my professional learning do i know the concept of efficiency. i also realise efficiency is not equal to justice.

[Sanku]

#1. never said anything about poor. you are the one confounding poverty with other issues. people from all sorts of backgrounds are poor. not all of them face the same problems.

Well you did talk about dalits, and about people, I took it conflate it to mean poor. My apologies.

So I will replace it with -- people in Kktachiefly need beef, cheap booze and government dole. (removed poor), still see issue with that? I think not based on your point in #3

#2. you think, bhajpa has some exclusive rights to development orientation in ka?

Rights? No.

Choice? yes !!

Not just in Kkta, almost everywhere.

Congress does not care for progress or growth, they care of power, and for schemes which can keep them in power. That has no relation with development or growth.

The growth that India has seen has been despite congress. I am terribly sorry, I do not see cow slaughter, cheap booze and government doles as development orientation. You will have to forgive me for that, but then anyway, what do I know!! We already agree that I and the people are out of sync.

#3. state is not promoting anything. state is only lifting artificial restrictions and reverting to the conditions that existed before bjp.

I have to agree (the winner thinks these are most important issues after all), the poor people were restricted from doles, cheap booze and cow meat. Those were the key delibating restrictions. Removing them is important for them.

Those are the key concerns.

#4. ka has a strict policy on animal sacrifice for religious purpose. that has not been reverted.

Why the double standards saar? Ok to kill for food but not for religion? How do you distinguish anyway? If I eat anything I kill, who gets to find out whether it is religious or not? Anyway stupid question due to my inability to understand what people want. Anyway I did not talk about animal sacrifice (which is clearly a ugly brahmincal practice carried out by upper caste elitists who do not know what people want) -- I talked about Cow slaughter (a secular activity needed for food by people)

Clearly people want beef through cow slaughter but dont care much otherwise of people wanting animal sacrifice. Fine, got it good.

#5. i have no special love for siddu. even less for congress. but having followed him & his ilk and people he follows for ages, his election is a relief especially when compared to hdk & bsy. that is uncharitable. honestly, siddu as a man harks back to days of ramakrishna hegde. bulk of congress not.

Well Saar, BSY being bad (which incidentally is not in BJP, but that is secondary) --has nothing to recommend in my mind as to Siddu being good. You feel a sense of relief? I feel some one has cut his nose to spite his face. Different strokes saar.

The question really was, was BJP/shettiar better? Funnily no one (including BJP supporters on the board) seem to be asking that. I think a obvious yes, but then clearly what do I know.

#6. if people want to eat, they will eat. not my place to tell people what to eat.

No saar, people should eat whatever they want, (as long its not a sacrifice) not my place either -- and making sure people can eat what they want, viz cow meat, which clearly was the most important requirement -- was sorely needed.

[Sanku]

sanku, earnest apologies. not articulate as you guys. ka not being mercantile is true. writing in ka, or even spoken language, irrespective who writes/says it, does not articulate efficiency. pine for justice we do. not efficiency. in kannada writing, leaking is seen as unjust not inefficient. from my own experience, its only through reading stuff in english and through my professional learning do i know the concept of efficiency. i also realise efficiency is not equal to justice.

Apologies for what Saar ?

No doubt you are right, everyone else who want development wants unjust, mercantile, efficient at the cost of brutality, development.

Only in Kkta do people want justice, peace and harmony.

[vivek.rao]

^^ No they needed Beef and cheap booze. That is what the poor need.

http://archive.deccanherald.com/Content ... 615388.asp


http://www.coastaldigest.com/index.php/ ... r-for-poor

Bangalore, May 15: A day after announcing freebies costing Rs 4,409 crore, Chief Minister Siddaramaiah is understood to have directed the State Excise Department to explore the possibility of introducing a “cheap and safe” liquor brand for the poor and labour class.
Siddaramaiah said on Tuesday, after a meeting with heads of almost all departments, that the poor, especially the labour class, had been hit hard ever since arrack was banned in the State. They had been forced to depend on expensive liquor. He, therefore, directed the officials to prepare a detailed report on the cheap liquor brand and submit it to the government.

Beef and cheap booze -- not to mention dole on some dirt scratching project is what the poor need.

Dharma, development, progress are all silly pretensions of people like us. Yes Sir.

Long live congress, down with India and Indians and Hinduism.

At least the new CM knows his priorities

Freebies and Cheap Liquor...

Then supply Free Liquor and 1000 per vote. Maino mafia can loot till 2019.

[Sanku]

At least the new CM knows his priorities

Freebies and Cheap Liquor...
.

Dont forget Cow meat. First thing in the priority list.

[shaardula]

more importantly, as has been comprehensively demonstrated, bhajpa in GJ not the same as bhajpa in KA. death of janata party means, bhajpa will remain an option as an alternative to congress. but at this point, that is what it is. an alternative. not the first choice. Given that JDS is a local castiest party, KA is congress' to lose.

[Sushupti]

Lalu at his best.

Nitish Kumar is the 'parrot of RSS & BJP', says Lalu

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... how/200658

[Sanku]

more importantly, as has been comprehensively demonstrated, bhajpa in GJ not the same as bhajpa in KA. death of janata party means, bhajpa will remain an option as an alternative to congress. but at this point, that is what it is. an alternative. not the first choice. Given that JDS is a local castiest party, KA is congress' to lose.

BJP in Guj != BJP in Kkta
correct.

BJP in Kkta >>>>>>>>>>>>>. Congress in Kkta \
is also unfortunately true. This has less to do with BJP at this point though (frankly), than to do with congress, they are absolute pits, notwithstanding anything, kkta is not special, congress is congress everywhere.

A party which wins or has greater vote share does not mean it is a better party. If that was the token Left would be best party to rule Bengal, unfortunately not.

Bengal --> BJP:Left
Kkta --> BJP:Congress.

The point is when would diga's be miserable enough to want a change? Or like Bengali's do they want empty stomachs and empty promises?

[shaardula]

sanku enterprise. holeya colonies do you know about? in these colonies in ka, that is an important economic activity.

i'm just stating what i know. if you want to put words in mouth that i imply others dont care about justice, then i'm not a hanuman to rip my heart out to demonstrate otherwise. you are free to think what you want. but KA != GJ does not mean KA is better than GJ. HAve stated this explicitly before. KA is what it is. Cant change facts to suit a narrative.

[shaardula]

didnt want to come of as a congress apologist, so deleted a comment about devaraja urs and other congress worthies who have done their fair share for the development of the state assisted by able bureaucrats such as baliga. google them. google nijalingappa and the rest.

[vivek.rao]

more importantly, as has been comprehensively demonstrated, bhajpa in GJ not the same as bhajpa in KA. death of janata party means, bhajpa will remain an option as an alternative to congress. but at this point, that is what it is. an alternative. not the first choice. Given that JDS is a local castiest party, KA is congress' to lose.

The problem in KA was that Yeddi could not provide the Governance it needed or keep the policy independence from his backers. The BJP Gujarat/MP have realized the importance of keeping such independence from organizations such as RSS or VHP or any other local units and provide the best Governance. Development and Governance have to be the corner stones of their agenda unlike Congress which relies on caste divisions, religious divisions and corrupt mafia networks.

AP under YSR rule - Every foreign church organization was give thousands of acres upon arrival along with thousands of crores. Land/Mines were just given to companies investing in YSR/Jagan/son-in-law companies. Every one knew this in 2009 but no media ever talks about the crony state of affairs.


K'taka was magnified because they wanted to destroy BJP in South. The whole focus of Outlook/Tehelka for the past 2 years was K'taka. The whole paid media kept the focus on K'taka. K'taka in the limelight needed leadership, focus on Governance/Development and most importantly proper message. Instead, the bad perception destroyed all the work done by BJP.

A far worse looting was done by Vadra in Rajasthan, Haryana using Govt, banks making Billions without spending a penny. But no one ever touches him: not CBI, not courts, not media.

[shaardula]

whatever man sanku, this reversal of ban on cow slaughter seems to have gotten your goat. your chip, your shoulder, what can i do about it, tell me? all i'm saying is, before bjp govt there was no ban. everyone was going on with their lives with no real problems. untill bjp came and decided this was a rashtirya problem of the highest order and needed their immediate top priority personal intervention.
people in ka eat beef and skin hides. what are they not dharmic enough for you?

first create a problem, then solve it mebbe thats what is the rashtriya way eno, perhaps. patanai.

[shaardula]

ayyo vivek raayre, agree with you diagnosis of why bhajpa failed in ka, but state assembly elections saar. why do we have to carry the usabari of the what happens elsewhere? ooralallela jaatre, dindu, & newly invented occasions like akshaya tritiya, what YSR did in AP why does it matter for hardanhalli politics saar?

[shaardula]

well i'm not going to apologize for siddu. time will tell. given the guy he is, i only give him a max of two years as cong cm. by the grace of chamundi, we will all know what type of a cm he was by then. i'm out for now.

[vivek.rao]

ayyo vivek raayre, agree with you diagnosis of why bhajpa failed in ka, but state assembly elections saar. why do we have to carry the usabari of the what happens elsewhere? ooralallela jaatre, dindu, & newly invented occasions like akshaya tritiya, what YSR did in AP why does it matter for hardanhalli politics saar?

Why do you get an impression that I wanted K'taka voters to pay attention to AP or other state?

I am giving my diagnosis. BJP paid for its mistakes and it is their own fault, not the fault of K'taka voters. Lack of leadership, bad perception in addition to bad Governance will result in your fall for BJP but not necessarily for Congress which can use Religious/caste divisions to its advantage for some time. That too won't last for ever.

I have lived in B'lore and I have seen Hegde to Dharam Singh to Krishna to Yeddi. Trust me! The development was not bad in Yeddi's time but his antics were very very destructive to the image of the party.

[vivek.rao]

well i'm not going to apologize for siddu. time will tell. given the guy he is, i only give him a max of two years as cong cm. by the grace of chamundi, we will all know what type of a cm he was by then. i'm out for now.

The only way he will be allowed after 2014 is if there is no UPA-III. Otherwise, he will be removed.