INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

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GeorgeM
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by GeorgeM »

harbans wrote:The article heading is INS Cheraman (After a Mallu king who converted to Islam)
Did he mean as in mallooo speak - cheruman? then he must be jailed immediately
Can you elaborate?
Being a mallu and a history buff I got to tell you that this is humbug. The Cheraman that converted to Islam and Cheraman the famous king are two different folks. The timelines of the two kings are centuries apart. Ofcourse there are other less famous kings by the same name that came later. Due to DDM and other general lack of cognitive ability most public writers connect the two kings to one person.

Edited later>> BTW I just checked Wikipedia and there also things are said on similar lines including his conversion to Christianity, Jainism and Buddhism. Truly sickular name.

Hope this ends the debate on sickularism and we are back to forum subject.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by pragnya »

Image
Besides its torpedoes, what makes Arihant a lethal platform are a dozen K-15 underwater-launched missiles armed with nuclear warheads. These missiles can take out targets situated 700–750 km away. A booster will erupt into life underwater and drive the missile to the surface. It will then dart 20 km into the air, trace a parabolic path and hit targets on land. The K-15 missiles, which are under serial production, will be the last to be integrated with Arihant before it becomes operational in about 18 months from now. Arihant has an option. In lieu of a dozen K-15 missiles, it can carry four heavier and more lethal K-4 missiles, which can make scorched earth of places as far as 3,000 km away. A.K. Chakrabarti, who was Director, Defence Research and Development Laboratory, Hyderabad, is the architect of the K-4 and K-15 missiles, developed by the DRDO.
Critical feat

kudos to TSS. he is a gem of a journalist. very detailed and interesting article. :)

looking at the cut away and the quote above, somehow i can't stop myself from 'speculating' here - that the K-4 might indeed be ready or would be ready by the time induction happens (another test is coming up) and would be part of Arihant's operational induction. remember this whole project has been shrouded in secrecy as the article details and as is both K-15/K-4 testing. there were 'unconfirmed' reports of K-4 of having been tested (may be more than once) and DRDO has been evasive (rightly) at best. it keeps everyone guessing till finally Arihant may just sport it and just vanish in to the ocean!!!

well done team Arihant team.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ramana »

The K-4 looks awesome. Hope its based on some insioght into its configuration. The short, squat profile shows its : designed for underwater launch, has multiple stages (atleast two) and has a payload fairing(the grey forward most section). The two other grey sections are the interstages. The forward one is most likely the euipment bay.

If that figure represents the K4, its unlike anything seen before in India.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by darshhan »

Any ideas on how Arihant fares in terms of quietness? How do they compare with other SSBNs in terms of quietness?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SaiK »

For the next sub design, I think we should think about the front nose section of torpedo and missile launch tubes be designed such that the crew and the rest of the submarines can detach itself from the explosive room/capsule altogether. it is a tough design, but very challenging to even think. it might add extra space and weight to the front.

canteen and living could move the left side sub, and launch tubes are assembled separately with blast proof cum unlock /plugin compartment. meaning if the hull ruptures, it only affects the front nose compartments where the launch tubes are placed.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Lilo »

Pardon my basic Question : Why is a nuclear submarine considered the most survivable of a nuclear triad in our situation ... ?
As opposed to say the offroading missile erector launcher vehicle or as in India's case rail mobile containerized/camoflaged ballistic missile ?

5 -10 missiles together in a boat is quite risky compared to a situation where each of the 5-10 missiles is scattered in a very wide area on offroading TELs which once identified to track require equal no of surveilance SATs in an ideal case which will be expensive proposition for the enemy.

If we project to have 4-5 subs wouldn't it be the case that all off them will be continuosly marked and tailed by enemy nuclear ssns or asw assets and are vulnerable to a preemptive attack just as land based fixed silos .. Its not that we have arctic ice near to seaports where a sub a can lurk away from the threat of aerial asw assets or subs that can outrun or dive deeper than enemy ssns.

Even in case we confine the subs to the littoral/coastal zone within our EEZ (as china used to do) its probable that they will be continuously marked by enemy ssns lurking near the boundary zone and sensors on subs or unmanned deepsea ones are getting more and more sensitive these days (able to track over 100's of miles) and in a preemptive nuclear strike situation enemy subs can immediately direct a fast airborne asw to the quadrant the sub is currently lurking.

If above is the case isn't it better to invest in SSNs than SSBN s until the quantitative and qualitative disparity with the enemy comes down to manageable levels ?

In the above scenario consider enemy Ssn and asw to be Los Angeles class and ACTUV http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACTUV and the Aerial ones to be the various conventional airborne platforms that massa employs.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SaiK »

1. NFU
2. First strike will incapacitate all on surface and on land infrastructure & living system
3. No communication nor electricity or signals can work (CnC is delinked) - doomsday
4. Need an independent safe mode to do the NFU/Second Strike
5. Assured retaliation
6. Highest deterrence, due to difficulties in detecting sub-surface moving platforms
7. Fire-complete mission-scoot capability
8. Survival of indic genes
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Lilo »

SaiK wrote:1. NFU
2. First strike will incapacitate all on surface and on land infrastructure & living system (How many nukes required to expose half of Indian land mass to circuit blowing EMP within a day ? - I think number will be quite large )
3. No communication nor electricity or signals can work (CnC is delinked) - doomsday ( if signals too don't work even the Ssbn is unaware of the requirement of launch)
4. Need an independent safe mode to do the NFU/Second Strike ( safety depends on how other points stack up)
5. Assured retaliation (~ do ~)
6. Highest deterrence, due to difficulties in detecting sub-surface moving platforms
7. Fire-complete mission-scoot capability TELs need not survive post delivery
8. Survival of indic genes our vast land mass will ensure that
Saik ji,
If we ignore NFU which should ultimately only be a ruse for more effective weaponisation ....

CnC delinking can be overcome with some thing akin to "dead hand" of russia and isn't a situation of a decapitation attack be equally applicable to sub at sea and to a TEL trudging somewhere in our vast landmass - considering that only frequency range of wireless communication differrs in each case ..

Point 6 seems to be the main decider again here ... So supplementary question ..What is the probability of preventing a ssbn from ultimately launching with initial position to be stationary at 200 m depth within our territorial waters in the narrow continental shelf less coastline (as in western coast) by 5 Boeing p8 (rigged with the best massa can muster) if the hunter knows that the Ssbn is within a specific 100km ^2 quadrant. Start condition is that the Hunter hasn't yet pinpointed the ssbn in the quadrant
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Prem Kumar »

Lilo: yours is more of a question for the deterrence dhaga.

Due to the vastness of the oceans, limited range of sonar, quietness of subs and near-shore protection assets of mother country, subs are currently one of the most survivable deterrents.

That being said, it might not stay that way for all time to come. You are right - with a sub, you put a significant amount of your nukes in one basket. Moreover, with advancements in ABM technology, ICBMs/SLBMs themselves may not be as survivable 30 years from now. Its quite possible that a stealth bomber with gravity bombs might then become the most survivable deterrent.

That's why the nuclear triad.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Lilo »

Thanks for heads up Prem ji

I for one would love to see the reaction of massa thinktankers if some time in the future its revealed that Arihant class is more a full fledged SSN fitted with LACM AshM or Marv 'ing ones etc rather than a midget SSBN as it is being categorized.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Good article by Frontline.There was another good one in the previous issue on the ISRO's future launches.Heartening toknow that there are 3 more A-class SSBNs in the works.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Prem Kumar »

Question on the TSS article (the man delivers quality work again): he says Arihant has a 80 MWth output. And further below states that we are working on 900 MWe PWRs.

Isnt the MWe the output in electrical power, which is a percetange of MWth (which is the heat output of the reactor)?

So, wouldnt 900 MWe mean something like 2700 MWth - sounds too high. Unless I am wrong in my Madarassa math
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by nachiket »

Prem Kumar wrote:Question on the TSS article (the man delivers quality work again): he says Arihant has a 80 MWth output. And further below states that we are working on 900 MWe PWRs.

Isnt the MWe the output in electrical power, which is a percetange of MWth (which is the heat output of the reactor)?

So, wouldnt 900 MWe mean something like 2700 MWth - sounds too high. Unless I am wrong in my Madarassa math
The 900 MWe PWR's are civilian reactors for power generation. They would be simply too big and powerful for a submarine or even an aircraft carrier. We don't have indigenous PWRs yet aside from the reactor on the Arihant. Our indigenous civilian reactors are all PHWRs and the largest makes around 500MWe (althouth a 750MWe design is being worked on IIRC). But now if we build on the capability derived from the Arihant's reactor, we can make our own large PWRs. Currently we are buying large PWRs like the VVER-1000's from the Russians.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Gagan »

Indeginous 700 MW PHWR are under advanced stages of construction at atleast one site in India. There are several of them planned whose construction will begin in the next 5 yrs.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Guddu »

What is the probability that the Arihant has K4, and the K15's are a distraction. I would assume that its a lot of work to change from K15 config to K4, so why not go for the K4 directly. Is there any benefit to having both K15 and K4's at the same time. The deterrent to me would be against China and not Pakiland.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Manish_Sharma »

pragnya wrote:Image
How come Seawolf which is smaller in length and only wider 1 meter from Arihant be heavier by 2600 tons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawolf-class_submarine
Seawolf
Displacement:
Surfaced: 8,600 tons
Submerged: 9,138 tons[1]
Length: 353 ft (107 m) Arihant: 111m (364ft)
Beam: 40 ft (12 m) Arihant: 11m (36ft)
Could it be due to single hull and double hull difference?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

shifting to K4 will be simple , just remove the sub-caliber K15 adapter dockside and do some checks . thats the whole purpose of the sub-caliber adapter game even ohio's have adopted (7 thawks in a Trident tube).

I thought both arihant and seawolf are single hull. arihant does not have the fatty look of kilo/akula/oscar double hulls.
wiki specs of 688 class closely matches the arihant...so the additional beam must be adding lot of hull weight.

same way burke class is actually shorter than delhi class, but wider and deeper and is 3000t heavier empty.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SaiK »

lilo, challenges are always there in any measure with an equivalent counter-measures from technology, platform and capability.. for example, next generation fluid cloaking techniques conducted by massan techs can eliminate wakes and humps. these are areas where future subs of desh will look at too.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Anujan »

Shifting to K4 will require numerous tests. It is not just a question of packing the missile inside tubes, but also of launching it. As soon as a missile is launched, a sub becomes lighter by a few thousand kilos. For a salvo launch, the roll and pitch of the sub should be in a very narrow window.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Singha wrote: I thought both arihant and seawolf are single hull. arihant does not have the fatty look of kilo/akula/oscar double hulls.
wiki specs of 688 class closely matches the arihant...so the additional beam must be adding lot of hull weight.
Maybe unconsciously I presumed, seeing russian help and our experience of operating mainly russian subs.

Yes the shape is so similar to 688 LA:

Image

Image
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by MN Kumar »

There was always talk about Arihant completing the nuclear triad. We know the Army's delivery vehicles but what about the IAF. Mirage 2000 & Su30 MKI's are its primary carriers along with Jag's in a secondary role. What form are they going to carry the flower petals is not clear yet or never discussed.

From the Frontline article:
On the strategic side, Arihant completes India’s nuclear triad. In other words, India can launch nuclear warheads from land, air and sea. India already has a fleet of Agni and Prithvi missiles, which can carry nuclear warheads from surface to surface. It has aircraft such as Mirage-2000 and Sukhoi-Mark I, which can deliver nuclear weapons. (which missiles are they going to carry to deliver them?) And now it has Arihant, which can fire missiles armed with nuclear warheads from underwater.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by ramana »

MNK, Those are aircraft delivered bombs.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Prem Kumar »

Hopefully air-delivered, N-tipped Nirbhays in the future too
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by MN Kumar »

ramana wrote:MNK, Those are aircraft delivered bombs.
Ramana you meant bombs that Jags were used to toss and run?
I was expecting some standoff Air to Surface one's like ASMP.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Lalmohan »

from open source, there is only toss bombs ever mentioned
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SaiK »

Dhananjay wrote:Image
Image
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Manish_Sharma »

SaiK ji, this is Arihant model OR russian proposed Amur 1650 with Brahmos capability?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Singha »

its amur.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by kuldipchager »

Dhananjay

Post subject: Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

PostPosted: 25 Aug 2013 06:27



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SaiK ji, this is Arihant model OR russian proposed Amur 1650 with Brahmos capability?



I am sure that this a Amur 1650 with brohm missiles.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by SaiK »

yes it is amur. i mistook.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Gagan »

This is the Amur - 950 model.

This is NOT the Amur 1650
This is NOT the Arihant Class.

Apart from the Brahmos VLS plug, the Amur - 950 has 4 preloaded 533mm torpedo tubes and NO refills for the torpedoes. Because of the VLS system, the 950 has a slight hump on the back.

The 1650 has 6 torpedo tubes with multiple refills in the torpedo storage room, and there is no hump because there is no VLS system. That is another way to distinguish the two models outwardly.
Last edited by Gagan on 26 Aug 2013 03:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Thanks, didn't know that. I thought 1650 was B'mos armed.

Interesting that 950 with B'mos can't reload T'pdoes.

Hopefully by the year end we'll see your sketches of Aridaman Gagan ji. :-)
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by kit »

apparently there was an attempt to get tech for non hull penetrating optoelectronic mast for the arihant...anything in open source for the kind of sensors the sub uses other than the ubiquitous sonar and arrays ?
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Gagan »

I had made a speculative sketch of the bigger next class of subs, with interlacing VLS missiles, even posted it on this dhaga several several moons ago. Will try to find it in my Hard disks and post.
But those sketches are speculative onlee.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by pankajs »

Interesting nugget while researching the status of Titanium production in India

VSMPO-AVISMA to deliver titanium to India - Indian Larsen & Toubro to obtain the metal in the third quarter of the year
At the moment contract price and volumes are not made public. However, Indian media say that the first country’s atomic submarine has already been constructed and undergone the tests. The project covers 4 more similar submarines made with the use of titanium alloys.

Within the SMM India-2013 shipbuilding exhibition held in Mumbai on April, 4-6, VSMPO-AVISMA discussed the contract details with L&T. The agreement provides for titanium production delivery to the Indian company in the third quarter of 2013. L&T is the biggest construction-engineering enterprise in the country.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by member_27444 »

I wonder what Midhani is doing , MIDHaNI was stared for the very same purpose of supplying Titanium and titanium alloys. The rolling mill as well. all supplied by France.
Another white elephant I Guess. They were supposed to supply Kanchan armor
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by pankajs »

Visit "India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector" thread. for details.

Just posted on the new SAIL Titanium plant that is being setup in Kerala. Hopefully we will be in a much better position in 5 years.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by pankajs »

Boost for Navy as Arihant gears up for arms trial
“Weapon trials of Arihant will take place either in the last quarter of this year or in the beginning of next year,” Avinash Chander, Director-General of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and scientific adviser to the defence minister, said here.
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by Philip »

Here is an old report on the ATV and the Franco-IN ties.An interesting artist's impressionof the sub,which differs slightly from the most commonly seen one .

http://adj.realviewtechnologies.com/?iid=68612
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Re: INS Arihant (ATV) News and Discussion -2

Post by chackojoseph »

Nuclear Submarine INS Arihant diving trials awaits rescue vehicle from Russia

I got a whiff of it and tried my level best to make it as an article.
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