Internal Security Watch

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 27 Nov 2013 20:10

Yes they have. My last visit to Paris was without one road block. The past ones were otherwise.

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 29 Nov 2013 20:05

No evidence against right-wing extremists in Dabholkar’s murder: Police

Pune Police today told the Bombay High Court that there was no evidence suggesting involvement of right-wing extremists in the killing of anti-superstition activist Narendra Dabholkar.

Dabholkar, who spearheaded the anti-superstition movement in Maharashtra, was shot dead on August 20 in Pune; the police are as yet clueless about identity of the culprits. A public interest litigation filed by former journalist Ketan Tirodkar has sought a probe by National Investigating Agency, alleging that Hindu right wing activists were involved.

More importantly, the contention that it was the handiwork of right wing extremists was based only on
presumptions or petitioner’s own imagination which is not supported by any factual evidence, said Rajendra Bhamare, Assistant Commissioner of Police, Pune Crime Branch, in the affidavit filed before the court.

Police also handed over to the court two reports on investigation conducted so far in sealed covers to the division bench headed by Justice P V Hardas. The judges did not open the covers today, and said they would peruse the reports at the next hearing, posted after two weeks.

ACP Bhamare also said the offence did not fall in the purview of National Investigation Agency Act, and the probe should not be transferred to the Central agency. “Our team is not under pressure from any political figure or any activist,” the affidavit said.

NIA too had taken a similar stand when it told the court earlier that it cannot probe Dabholkar’s murder as the offence fell under the Indian Penal Code, and was not covered by the NIA Act.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 29 Nov 2013 20:11

panduranghari wrote:
Atri wrote:BT works when muslim population is below 15-20%... Naarth has passed that point long ago..
Then we need BT x 10. What stops Hindus from doing Maha- Aartis?

Sekulaar sarkaar...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2013 20:57

No evidence against right-wing extremists in Dabholkar’s murder: Police

Above murder was used to pass the superstitions outlaw bill in Maharastra claiming that right wing people murdered this man.

Was it done by Psec forces to force the passage of the bill?

Police can't say so and so did not kill. Thye have to find who killed the poor man.

Also this should be a warning to activists for the powers that be can sacrifice you for the great cause.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 30 Nov 2013 16:42

Bangalore doctor arrested for LeT links

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 30 Nov 2013 20:39

Three GRPF Jawans killed by Maoists in Bihar in attack on a train.

http://www.niticentral.com/2013/11/30/m ... 63382.html

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 01 Dec 2013 09:16

TN charitable trust key in Bangalore blast plan, terror attacks: Police

A charitable trust set up in Tamil Nadu ostensibly to help members of the proscribed Al Ummah outfit has been named by police as having been pivotal in the planning and execution of the April 17 bomb blast outside a BJP office in Bangalore.

In documents placed before court along with the chargesheet in the case, the Bangalore police has said that the outfit, the Charitable Trust for Minorities, provided as much as Rs 1.5 lakh used in the funding of the blast.

Al Ummah members were accused in the 1998 Coimbatore blasts, targeted at BJP leader L K Advani. The trust was set up in 2010 ostensibly to help them fight their legal battles.

Citing statements by some of the 14 accused named in the chargesheet in the BJP office blast case, the Bangalore police has stated that the trust has emerged as a central figure in terrorist activities in Tamil Nadu following the ban on Al Ummah.

"After the ban, they (the accused) have been avoiding identifying themselves with the outfit (Al Ummah) but have been clandestinely active in unlawful activities. Now the accused persons have associated themselves with another outfit called CTM (Charitable Trust for Minorities) to carry out terrorist activities," states the chargesheet.

According to police records, the trust was created by a splinter group of Al Ummah after its founder S A Basha was found to have been using the organisation's funds for his own legal defence in the 1998 Coimbatore blasts case, while ignoring dozens of others arrested for it. The blasts had killed 58 persons ahead of an Advani rally.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 01 Dec 2013 17:07

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/former-cbi-official-says-he-did-not-record-perarivalans-confession-verbatim/article5384370.ece?ref=relatedNews

“It will be miscarriage of justice if extreme penalty is carried out”
A documentary released by the People’s Movement Against Death Penalty (PMADP) here on Saturday claimed that the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) had failed to record verbatim the confessional statement of A.G. Perarivalan alias Arivu, the convict facing death penalty in the Rajiv Gandhi assassination case.

The shocking but delayed revelation was based on the interview of a former Superintendent of Police of the CBI who admitted that he failed to record verbatim the confessional statement of Perarivalan.

V. Thiagarajan IPS (retired) who was the then CBI SP of the Kerala Branch said he was assigned the task of recording the statement of accused persons in 1991.

“Arivu told me that he did not know why they asked him to buy that [the battery]. But I did not record that in the confessional statement. Then the investigation was in progress, so that particular statement I did not record. Strictly speaking, law expects you to record a statement verbatim… we don’t do that in practice,” he said.

He said Sivarasan, one of the prime suspects, had sent a message to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam headquarters that the plot to kill Gandhi was not shared with anybody. “It excludes the prior knowledge of everybody else, except Nalini, that Gandhi was going to be assassinated… this is a very solid, uncontested and unchallengeable evidence.”

There was subsequent internal evidence to clearly say that Arivu had no prior knowledge that Gandhi was going to be killed. “If he did not know that there was going to be a killing, how can you make him party to the killing. It is illogical, it is against the evidence on record. Therefore, you look at it from any angle it will be miscarriage of justice if the extreme penalty is carried out,” he said.

Mr. Thiagarajan went on to explain that though he felt this before, he could not do anything at that stage. With regard to Arivu in particular, he always felt “a little uneasy” that the confessional statement was not appreciated the way it should have been. “Superficially they took it and jumped to the conclusion… they took a strong view that Arivu knew of the killing and he bought the battery. That is not the truth. We cannot speculate, it is very dangerous to speculate.”

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/karunanidhi-for-thorough-probe-into-rajiv-gandhi-assassination/article5386982.ece?ref=relatedNews

DMK chief M. Karunanidhi on Sunday wanted a thorough inquiry into the Rajiv Gandhi assassination in the light of the revelation made by former CBI official V. Thiagarajan that he had failed to record verbatim the confessional statement of A.G. Perarivalan alias Arivu, one of the convicts facing death penalty.

“The former officer’s revelation had raised questions both on the probe into the assassination and the judgment. Let there be a thorough inquiry,” he said.

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 03 Dec 2013 10:20

‘Modi can’t repeal Article 370 even if he is PM for 10 terms

Farooq Abdullah tonight said even if Narendra Modi becomes prime minister for “ten terms” he will not be able to repeal Article 370 of the constitution.

Else my family sweet shop will be closed

Addressing a gathering of former army officials from India and Pakistan at the residence of former Samajwadi Party leader Amar Singh, Farooq said both the countries will have to live together for prosperity.

The National Conference leader said his maternal grandfather was buried in Lahore but he was not being allowed to visit the place.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 03 Dec 2013 11:58

Just when we had a handle on Polio - muslim clerics come up with this...

Muslim clerics ask villagers to boycott polio campaign, schools

A bizarre fatwa has been issued by Muslim clerics forcing local residents to boycott polio campaign risking the lives of their new-born babies. Moreover, the clerics have also asked parents not to send children to schools.

The fatwa issued by local clerics in nearly 30 Muslim dominated villages in Sambhal district is aimed at pressurising the Government for making their villages part of the adjoining Moradabad district.

Those who disobey the call will be fined Rupees 500.

Following the call, nearly 10 villages saw a total boycott while others witnessed a partial boycott of polio campaign on November 24.

Locals are also not sending their children to school and teachers have also warned been against taking classes.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 03 Dec 2013 19:09

MongoDB startup hired by Aadhaar got funds from CIA VC arm

BANGALORE: Two weeks ago, Max Schireson, chief executive of MongoDB, a New York-based technology startup, was in New Delhi to sew up a very important contract for his company — with the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI).

The contract is yet to be announced but what could raise eyebrows is the fact that MongoDB is part-funded by the US' Central Intelligence Agency.

The company is expected to help in capturing and analysing data related to the ambitious plan to issue a unique identity number — Aadhaar — to over a billion citizens.

MongoDB, which makes software that helps manage large databases, especially unstructured data, has raised $231 million (Rs1,400 crore) since being founded in 2007. Some of its funding is from In-Q-Tel, the not-for-profit venture capital arm of CIA.

While MongoDB lists In-Q-Tel as one of its investors on its website, the company has not disclosed the quantum of funding received from it. The fund's stated mission is to identify, adapt and deliver innovative technology solutions to support the missions of CIA and the broader US intelligence community.

Besides CIA, In-Q-Tel works with National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, Defense Intelligence Agency and Department of Homeland Security Science and Technology Directorate. "Once an investment is made, IQT (the fund) works with the company and the intelligence community partner agency to complete a work program and facilitate solution delivery," the fund's website said. The quote describes IQT's relationship with any company in which it invests in and is not specific to MongoDB.

Neither UIDAI nor MongoDB responded to queries from ET on whether the CIA link was considered before entering into a partnership. UIDAI Chairman Nandan Nilekani did not respond to emails, messages and phone calls.

A senior UIDAI official official confirmed the agency has entered into an agreement with MongoDB and that the company's database software is already being used for analysing the pace at which registration of new beneficiaries is taking place.

It is not clear if MongoDB's vendor relationship would be with UID directly or with one of the system integrators that UID works with. Schireson, the CEO, was also one of the national co-chairs for Technology for Obama, an interest group that campaigned for the reelection of President Barack Obama after his first term.

There is no evidence in the public domain that the firm is controlled or significantly influenced by the CIA in any manner.

But the revelations of Edward Snowden, a former NSA contractor-turned-whistleblower that US intelligence agencies routinely intercepted communication in Europe and Asia, including in India has raised concerns. Experts said the UID's centralised design could pose a risk, where even a single mistake can make the whole system disproportionately vulnerable.

"The risk exposure because of CIA involvement (could be that) if MongoDB is a data controller, then secret courts and secret court orders could be used to get access to the UID data," said Sunil Abraham, executive director at the Centre for Internet and Society.

He added that even if UIDAI is only using the source code without getting into a commercial relationship with MongoDB, they should audit the source code to check if CIA has introduced any back doors. "This is because Snowden has told us that the army of mathematicians working for the US government has compromised some standards even though they were developed in an open, participatory and transparent fashion." MongoDB, whose name is a play on the word humongous, competes with Oracle, IBM and Microsoft. It has around 320 employees and some 600 customers. At its latest round of $150 million in fund-raising in October, the company was valued at about $1.2 billion, according to Bloomberg. Other investors include Intel Capital, Salesforce-.com, Red Hat and Sequoia.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 03 Dec 2013 19:16

Maopests on the rampage again

http://www.niticentral.com/2013/12/03/m ... 64291.html

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 04 Dec 2013 19:53

Dangerous trend...

Trio killed man for jihad fund raising

Terror suspects, ‘Police’ Fakruddin, Panna Ismail and Bilal Malik, arrested after a standoff at Puthur in Chithoor district in Andhra Pradesh on October 5, were also linked with the murder of a jewellery staff to rob him off `1.5 lakh, which was reportedly used for ‘jihadi’ operations in the State, according to police.

...
The SID was formed on the orders of Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa, who disbursed cash reward to the personnel of SID, who were part of the operations, which led to the arrest of ‘Police’ Fakrudeen, Panna Ismail and Bilal Malik, wanted in a series of murders in the State and also for planting an Improved Explosive Devise (IED) during BJP senior leader L K Advani’s visit to the State in 2011. The trio were arrested following their reported involvement in the murders of Velliappan at Vellore, Auditor Ramesh at Salem, and vendor Suresh at Madurai. The accused had also confessed to their involvement in the murders of one Murugan at Paramakudi and Dr Aravinth Reddy at Vellore.

“After sustained interrogation, the accused confessed to their involvement in the murder of jewellery staff, Panchatcharam in Vellore. The accused revealed that they had followed the deceased on a motorcycle, intercepted him and robbed him of his bag containing `1.5 lakh. When he resisted, they stabbed him. The accused confessed that they committed this crime to rob the deceased of his money for the purpose of Jihad”, according to a release from CBCID.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 04 Dec 2013 23:25

Sagar G wrote:MongoDB startup hired by Aadhaar got funds from CIA VC arm

BANGALORE: Two weeks ago, Max Schireson, chief executive of MongoDB, a New York-based technology startup, was in New Delhi to sew up a very important contract for his company — with the Unique Identification Authority of India (UIDAI).

The contract is yet to be announced but what could raise eyebrows is the fact that MongoDB is part-funded by the US' Central Intelligence Agency.

The company is expected to help in capturing and analysing data related to the ambitious plan to issue a unique identity number — Aadhaar — to over a billion citizens.

I am sorry folks but this Economic Times article is a joke. Aadhaar/UID project faces the same issues managing Big Data which CIA and other agencies face so they ended up selecting the same type of data management platform. What is alarmist about that? MongoDB is a platform and it depends on end users on how to use it. This is a classical case of paid propaganda by some Propriety RDBMS Software provider because Open Source MongoDB is kicking it where it hurts the most. Just FYI Aadhaar/UIDAI also uses Linux, Windows and a host of other technologies to which NSA and CIA have access does that mean we stop using them..

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Dec 2013 03:03

Yes, it is a platform. But there are two aspects that should have been clarified : where are the servers physically present, [how aadhar is going to physically host it - whether on their own or via existing MongoDB setup] and whether the UID db will be accessible in some interface over the web - that is externals will have access over internet [in that case any built in backdoor into the platform will be used by the externals].

Just because something is claimed to be on the "cloud", does not necessarily mean that the core bank of servers are physically not proximal - and therefore are not so easily read physically as a cluster. We do not know yet very clearly whether the intra-server communication is encrypted, and who controls that encryption if any.

NSA can simply physically tap into the clusters.

"Big data" is more of a jargon now, and loosely bandied about than it really should be. Unless aadhar or gov behind it is going to mine the data for its own purposes, it really is all about accessibility from the gov side at this stage, and nothing more. "Big data" becomes a problem if the data is going to be mined and analyzed for feature extraction beyond the simple individual matching problem.

à¤µà¤°à¥à¤£ · Post by **à¤µà¤°à¥à¤£** » 05 Dec 2013 03:22

brihaspati wrote:Yes, it is a platform. But there are two aspects that should have been clarified : where are the servers physically present, [how aadhar is going to physically host it - whether on their own or via existing MongoDB setup] and whether the UID db will be accessible in some interface over the web - that is externals will have access over internet [in that case any built in backdoor into the platform will be used by the externals].

MongoDB (i've used it in my projects), is just software that provides access to "unstructured" data that's stored on YOUR servers. The cloud, as you call it, will of course be based in Bangalore, or wherever UIDAI has their server farms.

MongoDB is open source, so there is no scope for any hanky-panky backdoors.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 05 Dec 2013 03:57

Communal tension in Tanda after VHP leader's murder

FAIZABAD: Communal tension gripped Tanda town of Ambedkarnagar district in Uttar Pradesh on Wednesday night after a local VHP leader was shot dead by unidentified gunmen. Keeping in view the simmering tension over the murder, a heavy contingent of security forces including PAC jawans was deployed in the town.

According to official sources, three unidentified gunmen came to the chemist shop of the VHP leader Ram Mohan Gupta in Tanda town and fired three bullets from point blank range. Locals immediately took Gupta to the district hospital where doctors declared him dead on arrival.

After the killing, activists of VHP and Hindu Yuva Vahini blocked traffic on Tanda-Akbarpur road. The activists raised anti-government and inflammatory slogans, locals said.

In March this year, Ram Mohan Gupta's uncle, Ram Babu Gupta — also a VHP leader — was killed in a similar fashion. After the killing, sporadic communal clashes were reported from some villages in Tanda, forcing the administration to keep the areas under curfew for over a week.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Dec 2013 04:11

वरुण wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Yes, it is a platform. But there are two aspects that should have been clarified : where are the servers physically present, [how aadhar is going to physically host it - whether on their own or via existing MongoDB setup] and whether the UID db will be accessible in some interface over the web - that is externals will have access over internet [in that case any built in backdoor into the platform will be used by the externals].
MongoDB (i've used it in my projects), is just software that provides access to "unstructured" data that's stored on YOUR servers. The cloud, as you call it, will of course be based in Bangalore, or wherever UIDAI has their server farms.

MongoDB is open source, so there is no scope for any hanky-panky backdoors.

Really?!!!! open source means no exploitable vulnerabilities?!!

[its nosql, but not unstructured - it has json like structure]. Backdoors can often lie in plain sight in open source but you would not know. Even encryption algos are now suspected by insiders.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 05 Dec 2013 04:22

One company I worked with has banned use of certain openly available C language string libraries because of potential backdoor hacking vulnerabilities.

à¤µà¤°à¥à¤£ · Post by **à¤µà¤°à¥à¤£** » 05 Dec 2013 04:25

brihaspati wrote:Really?!!!! open source means no exploitable vulnerabilities?!!

I sense an air of superiority for no rhyme or reason. I didn't say no vulnerabilities, but I said no hidden backdoors. The code is out there, and if you are clever enough, you can find them. Open source and more eyes on code generally means there is a high chance that you wouldn't have any shenanigans.

Backdoors can often lie in plain sight in open source but you would not know.

I guess I wouldn't

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Dec 2013 04:37

brihaspati wrote: Really?!!!! open source means no exploitable vulnerabilities?!! [its nosql, but not unstructured - it has json like structure]. Backdoors can often lie in plain sight in open source but you would not know. Even encryption algos are now suspected by insiders.

It is far more difficult to hide backdoors in open source code than in proprietary code. Everyone who uses it has an interest in finding and fixing the vulnerabilities too, which is made easier because everyone has access to all the code.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 05 Dec 2013 04:42

brihaspati wrote:Yes, it is a platform. But there are two aspects that should have been clarified : where are the servers physically present, [how aadhar is going to physically host it - whether on their own or via existing MongoDB setup] and whether the UID db will be accessible in some interface over the web - that is externals will have access over internet [in that case any built in backdoor into the platform will be used by the externals].

These problems are tangential to the issue of selecting MongoDB itself. If remote DB access isn't properly controlled for example, it doesn't matter if you use MongoDB or MS SQL Server, the data is not secure.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 05 Dec 2013 04:50

It sometimes is not about ability to hide that could cause the problem but misuse of it Or taking advantage of certain aspects of functionality. This could be very transparent but hides vulnerabilities nevertheless.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Dec 2013 06:04

nachiket wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Yes, it is a platform. But there are two aspects that should have been clarified : where are the servers physically present, [how aadhar is going to physically host it - whether on their own or via existing MongoDB setup] and whether the UID db will be accessible in some interface over the web - that is externals will have access over internet [in that case any built in backdoor into the platform will be used by the externals].
These problems are tangential to the issue of selecting MongoDB itself. If remote DB access isn't properly controlled for example, it doesn't matter if you use MongoDB or MS SQL Server, the data is not secure.

I think I did not say that it was MongoDB specific. MongoDB came up as contextual. It is more tempting as a platform to run as distributed, and hence one that is of concern is the typical cluster vulnerabilities that sort of goes out of discussion under the false impression that it is more difficult to hack simply because data gets broken into chunks and possibly residing in different physical machines.

Maybe they do have need to store nosql format, which is a hint that they will be storing data against individuals not necessarily onlee from the aadhar collection - or aadhar will be collecting more data on individuals than the standardized UID items. One would use such open ended data structures when one wants to keep the option open to have different types and kinds of data for different individuals and knows that the standardized initial data collection will be and likely to be added on into the future. So this is likely going to feed into non-aadhar intel dbs too. This would be another kind of issue.

वरुण wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Really?!!!! open source means no exploitable vulnerabilities?!!
I sense an air of superiority for no rhyme or reason. I didn't say no vulnerabilities, but I said no hidden backdoors. The code is out there, and if you are clever enough, you can find them. Open source and more eyes on code generally means there is a high chance that you wouldn't have any shenanigans.

Backdoors can often lie in plain sight in open source but you would not know.
I guess I wouldn't

Sure. I am not clever. I experiment on MongoDB among others and we isolate it completely, as a cluster because we are terrified, paranoid, and petrified of consequences of other people showing up with parts of our data. MongoDB is more scary from our viewpoint simply because it is newer than long standing ones, hence less time to get exposed. I guess most of us out there who use such things are not clever either, hence we discover backdoors onlee after long long delays and not right at the beginning when we look at the "code". Thanks for your astute observation.

à¤µà¤°à¥à¤£ · Post by **à¤µà¤°à¥à¤£** » 05 Dec 2013 11:54

brihaspati wrote: MongoDB is more scary from our viewpoint simply because it is newer than long standing ones, hence less time to get exposed. I guess most of us out there who use such things are not clever either, hence we discover backdoors onlee after long long delays and not right at the beginning when we look at the "code".

Now that is a fair enough argument. Agreed on isolating clusters regardless of the software being used. My apologies if I came across as snippy earlier.
I just find the argument about CIA funding a bit silly. My startup's flagship project is funded by JPL among others. They havent written the code but only me and my employees. If I was to be denied using it for ISRO due to sabotage concerns I would be pretty miffed.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Dec 2013 13:45

http://www.rediff.com/news/report/why-a ... 131205.htm

If you are a Kashmiri or a resident of any of the north eastern states, securing an Aadhar card is just about get more difficult.

That’s because the Intelligence Bureau has in a report to the government suggested a re-think while issuing the cards on a blanket basis.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 05 Dec 2013 19:44

VHP leader killed in Tanda. Is this the work of the IM types or is it to do with personal rivalries? No idea - but the SP government seems to be failing spectacularly on the security front.

http://www.niticentral.com/2013/12/05/v ... 65119.html

kish · Post by **kish** » 06 Dec 2013 23:16

If you think Communal Violence Bill CVB is a brain child of UPA alone, think again. It is a joint work of evangelicals, islamists, lefties & other anti-nationals. What does Vatican has to do with a proposed law in India, Isn't it a violation of sovereignty?

This is precisely why these people so dread the return of BJP.

Statistics on communal violence: debate on the law for the protection of minorities

(Agenzia Fides) - More than 4,000 episodes of violence in four years, 648 people died and 11 thousand were injured in the 24 states of the Indian Federation: these statistics released by the Indian Bishops on violence against religious minorities in the country(Shouldn't these Bishops be apolitical??( are very significant. The complaint comes as the "National Advisory Council" published a new draft law that aims to prevent communal violence and protect ethnic, religious, and cultural minorities. As the spokesman of the Episcopal Conference, Fr. Babu Joseph Karakombil explains to Fides the document titled "'Prevention of Communal and Targeted Violence Bill, 2011" intends " to create a framework for prevention and control of communal and sectarian violence that has caused so much suffering to the nation in recent years". Also, the text of the law, endorsed by the federal government and appreciated by the Indian bishops, "provides assistance and compensation to the victims", and therefore "is a useful tool for building harmony and social peace in India". This position is shared by churches and minority religious communities, human rights organizations, associations working for the legality and the rule of law. The law is however rejected by the opposition parties, led by Baratija Janata Party, the Hindu nationalist party and supporter of the Hindu extremist movements, perpetrators of violence(Isn't it already prejudiced that 'Hindus' are perpetrators of violence) . While the debate rages in the country, the Bishops have provided Fides(Again, why does Bishops give data to vatican, isn't it unconstitutional?) a statistical summary of the violence, to give the idea of the size and depth of the phenomenon: "The statistics must be a burden on the current debate, to highlight the 'urgency of the law", underlines Fr. Babu. The period taken into consideration is 2005-2009: In this period 648 people were killed, 11,278 injured in 4,030 incidents of communal violence. On average, 130 people died and 2,200 were injured each year. Incidents were reported from 24 of the 35 states and Union territories (the states in the Northeast are immune)(Why is that, is it because Church is the perpetrator of violence in North-East?). The maximum number of incidents occurred in Maharashtra (700), followed by Madhya Pradesh (666) and Uttar Pradesh (645). 4 states, accounted for 64% of all deaths: Uttar Pradesh recorded the highest number of deaths. A total of 176 people died in these incidents; another 2,171 were injured; followed by Madhya Pradesh (107 deaths and 1,708 injured people), Maharashtra (77 people died and 2,012 were injured), Orissa witnessed 52 deaths and 234 people were injured. In the period under review, the worst year was 2008, with 943 cases of communal violence, especially in Orissa, Karnataka, Madhya Pradesh and Maharashtra. (PA) (Agenzia Fides 23/092011)

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 07 Dec 2013 11:56

Sanjay Dutt, who literally provided support to Pakistani terrorists waging war against India, is provided bail to look after his ill-wife. His wife of course is well enough to attend multiple public functions.

Sanjay Dutt leaves jail for unwell wife whose photos create stir

Sadhvi Pragya has no charge sheet against her after 5 years is denied bail consistently, even for her father's funeral...

Bail for pregnant Maoist, jail for cancer patient Sadhvi Pragya

This is not an issue of secularism or just islamo pandering, but perhaps far more than that.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 07 Dec 2013 12:32

Another Muz'nagar in the making?
Standard practice - girl is teased. Father raises issue. RoPers turn violent & kill father.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 07 Dec 2013 14:27

370 and all that humbug

T C A Srinivasa-Raghavan

Suppose in 1971 Indira Gandhi had asked the so-called princes - to whom India had promised a pension in perpetuity in return for joining the Indian union - if they would agree to its abolition. What do you think these "princes" would have said? "Yes, dear, go ahead"?

So if you ask a Kashmiri, Hindu or Muslim, whether he or she will agree to the abolition of Article 370, will he or she agree? Why on earth would or should they? Everyone likes to be "special" in some way. Even Nitish Kumar wants special status now.

This establishes the first rule for the debate on Article 370: don't ask those who benefit from a particular dispensation about whether it can (or should) be abolished. But, unfortunately, this is what Jawaharlal Nehru contrived in 1950.

He orchestrated a provision in the Constitution which says only a Constituent Assembly of Jammu and Kashmir can recommend the deletion of Article 370. You may as well ask the umpire to ask a batsman if he would like to be given out.

The second rule must be about context. There was perhaps a time in history in 1948 which warranted a Linus-like comforting blanket being offered to Kashmiris. But is our Linus never going to grow up, even though the threat of a military takeover by Pakistan is a now a thing of the past?

Pakistan can rattle its sabres till it turns blue in the face and it can brandish its nuclear weapons. But everyone knows that it can't win in a war. Even Manmohan Singh says so.

A third rule must pertain to the issue of identity. If you ask a Kashmiri - and I have asked plenty of them because my brother has been married to one for 42 years - they all talk of something called Kashmiriyat, the shorthand for Kashmiri identity.

But I have never received a convincing answer from them or anyone else as to why the Kashmiri identity should be deserving of special consideration when other Indian identities are not. Is the Tamil or Bengali or Punjabi or Marathi or any other identity somehow inferior?

The fourth rule must be about the negative externalities of such special-status provisions. The question to ask is this: do such provisions engender a sense of separateness or do they allow integration? Is it a coincidence that many states to which a special status provision is applicable continue to nurse grievances which foreigners exploit in one way or another?

This actually takes us to an arcane aspect of the liberalism debate, namely, at what point does the country decide to impose a non-liberal rule? The answer does not lie in emotional outpourings, but in the cold precision of the logic of what are called impossibility theorems in mathematics. These basically say there some problems which just cannot be solved in the way we'd like them to be solved.

The world's leading authority on this, none other than our own Amartya Sen, showed in a 1970 paper called 'The Dilemma of a Paretian Liberal' how it was impossible to reconcile two highly desirable but mutually contradictory liberal conditions even if they were essential to a just solution.

The importance of his paper lay in proving, first, that it was futile to aim for something that is unattainable by definition and, second, therefore, that at some point a guillotine has to be applied on liberal approaches. Someone has to impose an arbitrary solution at some point.

A fifth rule in discussing special status provisions must look at the vested interests that such provisions create. Politicians, contractors and the links between them are one such vested interest and a very important one at that. So powerful have they become in Kashmir that they even have the gall to threaten the country, as was evident last week when Kashmiri politician after Kashmiri politician adopted a highly minatory attitude.

In J&K, meanwhile, despite the thousands of crores having been spent there in the last 60 years - over half of which was spent after 1990 - there's not much to show as far as development indicators are concerned. So the question must be asked: where has the money gone?

All this does not mean that the Bharatiya Janata Party and the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh are right in their interpretation of Article 370. It was never a pro-Muslim provision. It was a political compromise and like all political compromises it should have been jettisoned long ago.

One final point for those who prefer numbers instead of logic: there are around three million people in the Kashmir Valley and 1.2 billion Indians - including these three million. Talk about the tail wagging the dog.

Finally, then there is the question of buying land in Kashmir - a stupid rule forced on the state by the Brahmin advisers of the then ruler in the mid-1930s. Since it is there, should not such rules be symmetrical? How would the Abdullahs, the Muftis and the rest of them like to be prevented from buying property outside Kashmir?

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 07 Dec 2013 20:43

Dated article by TCA Srinivasa Raghavan from 2007.
Modi and the Ramanujam Test

A K Ramanujam put forth a simple idea: while Westerners function on moral absolutes, Indians function on contextual morality.
Some readers will recall that this is the nth time I am writing this. I beg their indulgence for repeating myself yet again. But I do believe that it is important for understanding many of the things that we Indians do, and, even more importantly, the way we think, especially about issues of morality.

It is important today because of our diverse and strange reactions to Narendra Modi. He has a lot going for him -- leadership, demagoguery, a state under his belt, tacit and revealed Hindu approval, etc. One also gets the sense that India is getting tired of centrist politics and is ready for a decisive shift rightwards.

Be that as it may, in the mid-1980s, the well-known American Indologist from Chicago, McKim Marriott, edited a volume called Imagining India: India through Indian eyes. In it was an essay by the late poet A K Ramanujam titled Is there an Indian Way of Thinking? That essay remains, in my view, the best ever written on the subject of how Indians decide on the morality of their actions.

Ramanujam put forth a simple proposition. He said that unlike the West, which functions on the basis of moral absolutes, Indians function on the basis of contextual morality.

Thus, most often, for the majority of Indians, an action is right or wrong depending on the context in which that action is situated. So in some contexts it is perfectly all right even to kill your brother. Even the Gita tells you so.
When I first wrote about this essay, many people protested. Ramanujam simply could not have said this, they said. I had to mail at least a dozen copies of the essay in order to convince the skeptics. Only two replied.

If we apply the Ramanujam Test, as I like to call it, everything falls into place. Thus, in the context of the partition, it was moral to reassure India's Muslims that they were safe here, whence the charge of appeasement.

In the context of Pakistan and its million follies, many Hindus believe that it is moral to attack them. In the context of the inequities of the caste system, it was all right to deprive the upper castes via reservations, never mind that such deprivation is itself immoral. In the context of domestic political exigencies, it was all right to take money from the KGB but not from the CIA. In Nandigram it was all right, said the CPM, to kill villagers because they belonged to the Communist Party of India (Marxist-Leninist).

We can multiply these examples, but the point is clear. The absence of moral absolutism enables us to justify everything. It clouds our collective as well as individual judgment and, at the most trivial, we get the rubbish we see on TV. But sometimes it is not trivial, especially when the political context becomes the moral justification for the actions of people, the government, its agents and even some institutions of the State - when a big tree falls, the earth is bound to shake, Soharabuddin, Afzal Guru, etc.

As far as political morality of present dilemma is concerned, I think the original sin lies in our having adopted and accepted identity politics as being a normal and legitimate instrument for pressing group claims - but only as long as such politics is confined to caste. So we say it is fine to have caste-based political parties but not religion-based ones.

We apply different rules to the two - even if the end-result is the same: fomenting disaffection between communities. How does it matter to the citizen if state persecution is based on either caste or religion? Isn't persecution the same for everyone?

This moral ambivalence is what Ramanujam talked about. For example, however strong and morally justified the case may be for the empowerment of the oppressed castes and for what the Americans call affirmative action, is it a logical and morally justifiable step from there to have caste-based political parties that incite hatred?
We have internalised identity-based politics to such an extent that not only do the jholawallah intellectuals make a nice living from it, we don't even hark back a mere 102 years ago, when it all started, for it was in 1905 when India took the decisive step towards identity-based politics when W A J Archbold, Principal of the Anglo-Mohammedan Oriental College in Aligarh, helped fix that fateful meeting of Muslims landowners with Lord Minto, the Viceroy.

Later he helped them draft the letter that demanded separate electorates. Muhammad Ali, the great secular leader, described the whole thing as a "command performance". Yet has any Indian historian enquired who this guy Archbold was? How did a Cambridge don writing about French poetry become the Principal at this college? Who suggested his name? Why did his predecessor resign? Is there a biography? No, sir, not one. The man has become a mere footnote even though there are a million questions to be answered about him.

Therefore, first we got the Muslim League, next the Justice Party in 1918 (the DMK's fore-runner) and so on until after independence, when a whole clutch of caste-based parties sprang up. What great moral principle are all these parties based on? Think about it and you will see that Narendra Modi is our own creation, of liberals, conservatives, fascists, communists and every other man jack of us. He is not the problem, we all are.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Dec 2013 22:20

Even Ramanujam and the author's own thinking is a reflection of their own failure to go beyond the superficial, and therefore getting confused.

(1) What appears as contextual application of values - and morals - is not unique to India, it is even more showed up by the so-called "west". The duo here show a complete lack of understanding of the reality of the records of western history - especially the combo of church+imperialism+racism. Starting right from the fundamentals of post-Mosaic versioning of the Judaic traditions - the records and narratives are a record of contextual and opportunistic application of morals and values. Moses himself ordered the culling of the women and children of the very peoples who had given him and his followers shelter after their Sinai trek.

Throughout the Judaeo-Christian traditions, every absolutist commandments and morals had been trumped on various excuses. One simple tool was invocation of angels/messengers/firishtas/burning bushes/direct voices from the supreme headquarters to trump supreme headquarters own earlier pompous declarations.

The record of that whole trajectory and spectrum of morals is a sordid tale of using the morals to extract benefits and power and obedience from the larger powerless section of society, create guilt on every possible natural dilemmas faced by the ordinary human - as a means of psychologically subjugating a population and creating legitimization of authority who can use a myriad transgressions through a legalistic exploitation mechanism.

(2) Any absolutist value - that does not acknowledge itself as a certain viewpoint from a small subgroup that is either loud enough or coercively powerful enough - has always been forced to create exceptions and contextualizations on various excuses when in practical terms of pursuit of power and dominance they have had to break their own rules and laws and morals.

(3) Not Indian - but Bharatyia values when as referred to in the Gita - is actually showing an underlying absolutist moral scheme. This is where certain values take precedence over others. So from Krishna's viewpoint, the value of establishing legitimacy of natural inheritance rights, and the continuous criminality of the Duryadhan coterie at centre of power and as state power - was a more serious offence than the killing of a brother by a brother.

What superficiality dismisses the Bharatya exploration of morality as merely contextual when all of Mahabharata and many parts of Ramayana, grapple deliberately with uncomfortable questions about the justice of hierarchies, entitlements, claims of superiority or inferiority, practical deviations from ideal situations or socially established norms?

Bharatyas, before they became Indians - had grappled with morality, realized that absolutist values in detailed and concrete implementations were never sustainable, and they would need invoking of authority in some form to explain away the need for contextualization.

But they attempted a deeper understanding of morality as manifestation of the need to have principles that helped humans to decide dilemmas in practical implementations. The principles have a definite hierarchy in Bharatyia thinking - and it is this deeper principle that has a preference ordering - that is used in Bharatya thinking. To a superficial mind, or the western mind used to self-deception on theological grounds - this would appear contextualization and opportunism since the typical authority used to justify transgressions in the west - is absent.

(3) "Indian" is a loose term we now use, but subconsciously - it is the resulting hybrid - and not composite, culture/philosophy/morality resulting from coercive and opportunistic adoption of the Judaeo-Christo-Islamic theological layers. So we need to distinguish between the Bharatya and "Indian" even on basic moral approaches.

In both streams - contextualization is inevitable, because any absolutist moralism is like writing a Constitution for human behaviour. One can never capture all possible variations of the human experience, forever into the future, for all peoples, lands, and times in a finite number of statements.

The difference - and this is where the loud "Indians" desperately trying to justify their "Indianness" by trying to please both the Bharatya and the "west", completely lose it - is that in the Bharatya system the problem is recognized, and a deeper and more fundamental system of eliciting a hierarchy of general values and principles with an inherent preference ordering is sought for.

In a sense this is also about establishing absolutist positions but with a clear understanding that it
(a) assumes that there is a ideal hierarchy of values
(b) but any instantaneous understanding of that hierarchy might be clouded by imperfect human understanding
(c) so there should be a constant and never ending search for perfecting that understanding without assuming that one has reached perfection at any stage

This allows the Bharatya to keep the possibility of a perfect system = ishwara = any concept of the perfect divine, as a target ideal, but also allow constant search and non-acceptance of the current understanding of that "ishwara" to be final.

This is in stark contrast to the "western" position of having already found "ishwara" as defined in "n" number of categorical statements using memes/words/associated ideas of a particular time, place and people. Henceforth everything else has to be fit around this "n", and excuses have to be found for enforced or required or optimal deviations.

There is another significant difference : the Bharatya approach makes it possible to question and prevent growth of single authorities as having sole right to interpret morals. Because that moral is principle dependent and principles are separate from their practical implementation - no one authority can usurp moral authority. The hybrid "Indian" will always fail to continue this hybridization without state coercion, and what they see as the "NaMo" problem, is simply the old, Bharatya memes raising their heads again.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 08 Dec 2013 09:29

Bji,
Thats a very,very good post.

I will take this discussion to OT thread.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 08 Dec 2013 09:37

Bji,
X-posting from Here

---

Dated article by TCA Srinivasa Raghavan from 2007.I found it interesting and relevant.
Modi and the Ramanujam Test

A K Ramanujam put forth a simple idea: while Westerners function on moral absolutes, Indians function on contextual morality.

I think this author and Ramanujam should first try to understand Hindhuism's position on Dharma before trying to come up with comparisons with the west. Hindhuism is not as simplistic as this author portrays. It is quite clear and precise, yet takes into account all the complexities(in theory and practice) the application of morals can give rise to. So, Hindhuism divides Dharma into two parts: the general and special(i.e. contextual).

Compared to Hindhuism; the western or abrahamic ones are mostly impractical, hypocritical, and confused. Bji wrote an excellent post explaining how selectively the so-called morals are applied by the west or abrahamic society.

brihaspati wrote:Even Ramanujam and the author's own thinking is a reflection of their own failure to go beyond the superficial, and therefore getting confused.

(1) What appears as contextual application of values - and morals - is not unique to India, it is even more showed up by the so-called "west". The duo here show a complete lack of understanding of the reality of the records of western history - especially the combo of church+imperialism+racism. Starting right from the fundamentals of post-Mosaic versioning of the Judaic traditions - the records and narratives are a record of contextual and opportunistic application of morals and values. Moses himself ordered the culling of the women and children of the very peoples who had given him and his followers shelter after their Sinai trek.

Throughout the Judaeo-Christian traditions, every absolutist commandments and morals had been trumped on various excuses. One simple tool was invocation of angels/messengers/firishtas/burning bushes/direct voices from the supreme headquarters to trump supreme headquarters own earlier pompous declarations.

The record of that whole trajectory and spectrum of morals is a sordid tale of using the morals to extract benefits and power and obedience from the larger powerless section of society, create guilt on every possible natural dilemmas faced by the ordinary human - as a means of psychologically subjugating a population and creating legitimization of authority who can use a myriad transgressions through a legalistic exploitation mechanism.

(2) Any absolutist value - that does not acknowledge itself as a certain viewpoint from a small subgroup that is either loud enough or coercively powerful enough - has always been forced to create exceptions and contextualizations on various excuses when in practical terms of pursuit of power and dominance they have had to break their own rules and laws and morals.

Link to post

Now coming to the topic of Hindhu position:

johneeG wrote:There has been a serious debate on Dharma on this thread.

In Hinduism, there are 2 types of Dharma:
a) Samanya Dharma (General)
b) Vishesha Dharma (Special) (Contextual)

Samanya Dharma(General):

It seems, according to Manu:

ahimsa satyam asteyam shaucham indriyanigraham
etam samasikam dharmam chaaturvarnye abhravin manuh

Ahimsa(Non-violence), Satyam(Truth), Asteyam(Non-Stealing), Shaucham(Cleanliness) and Indriya-nigraham(Control of senses) are the Dharma of all the 4 varnas.

The general Dharma applicable to all are:
Ahimsa(Non-violence),
Satyam(Truth),
Asteyam(Non-Stealing),
Shaucham(Cleanliness) and
Indriya-nigraham(Control of senses)

The priority is also clear. Ahimsa(Non-Violence) has the highest priority(over and above Satya/Truth also).
Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah.
Ahimsa is the highest Dharma.

So, when there is a conflict between Ahimsa(Non-Violence) and Satya(Truth), then Ahimsa get higher priority.

Ahimsa(Non-violence) can cover topics like: Murder, genocide, harassment(of any kind), injury(direct/indirect), abortion(killing of foetus), ...etc.
Satya(Truth) is self-explanatory. It can cover topics like: Cheating, scams, misrepresentations(specially in public discourses), breaking the agreements, adulterating the items ...etc.
Asteya(Not-stealing) can cover topics like: stealing, bribes, extra-marital affairs(stealing others' wives/husbands/girl-friends/boy-friends ... etc).

The above three are guarding against the wrong actions.
Shaucha(cleanliness) is a quality that is to be encouraged and inculcated.

Shaucha can cover topics like: personal hygiene, keep the environment clean and safe, pollution(air/water/land/sound...etc).

Finally, the bonus quality which is to be respected, admired and rewarded.
Indriya Nigraha: Control of senses(including mind). Indriya Nigraha forms the basis for all other Dharmas. One who is hankering after the sensual enjoyments would hardly care about law or dharma.

These 5 are the general rules for all.
Then, there are special rules. The special rules are based on the time, place, circumstance and subject. It varies from person to person, from gender to gender, from place to place and time to time.

The Special rules have higher priority than the General rules. So, a soldier, whose special duty is to kill, is exempted from the general rule of Ahimsa.

What happens when a person is forced to perform one himsa(violence) or the other?
This is not a hypothetical question, it is based on the reality of life. Ahimsa is a huge topic, so briefly: The reality of the world is that there is conflict and violence in all dealings directly or indirectly. So, no one can abjure violence completely. So, the rule is that as long as one is acting with in one's own needs/duties, himsa(violence) is alright. For example, when a tiger kills a deer, its alright. Similarly, when a soldier kills an enemy, its alright.

A person must not harm anyone(even a plant or animal or insect) beyond one's need/duty. There is a story of Vidura's past life in MB. If one harms even insects, unnecessarily, then it accounts as severe violence. If one kills other men also, as part of duty/need(self-defense), then such a violence is negligible.

Killing oneself(suicide) is considered highest himsa(violence). Suicide is a bigger offense than the Murder. Murder/injury of a close relative/friend is a bigger offense than killing a stranger. Killing/harming someone who helped you in the past is a great offense.

The punishments given for the same crime are not equal. The one with higher privileges gets higher punishment for the same crime.

A robbery by an uneducated poor hungry guy is not the same as the robbery by an educated rich powerful guy. That means the punishments for the rich and powerful(elites) would be more severe than the punishments for the ordinary.

The taxes are equal to all. 1/6th of one's earning. No indirect taxes. The good ruler must take care of the invalids in one's country. The ruler must encourage the entrepreneurs. He must create situations such that the loans are easily available. The ruler must take care that the farmers are provided by seeds and fertilizers. The farmers must also have the chance to sell their produce for fair amounts.

This is the Hindu system.

Link to post

So, Hindhuism is neither strictly contextual nor totally ignorant of context. The problem that other systems generally suffer is when they are either totally contextual or totally devoid of context. Hindhuism has more elegant solution to this by dividing the Dharma into two parts one that is based on context and one that is absolute.

Since, it mentions 'varna', I am linking a post on 'varna' also:

johneeG wrote:Here, Sattva, Rajas and Tamas means spiritual, mental(or ego) and material. Those seeking spiritual endeavors are called Brahmans. Those seeking mental or ego satisfaction are called Kshatriyas. Those seeking both spiritual and ego satisfaction are called Vaishyas. And those seeking material comforts are called Shudras.

This is the chatur varna system(4 varnas). In BG, Sri Krishna clarifies that the varnas are based on Guna and Karma. Karma means actions. Actions flow from gunas and/or actions can transform the degree of gunas. So, one can perform sattvic karmas and acquire sattvic guna(even if he was not originally sattvic). One can perform tamasic Karmas and acquire tamasic guna(even if he was not originally tamasic). Similarly, if one is sattvic, then such a person is likely to perform(if left on his own) sattvic gunas. But, neither guna nor the karma are permanent attributes. They only denote the present situation of a being.

Infact, they do not even show the present situation. They are indicators of what happened in the past. It is like a report card after having written exams. Imagine that someone has to write exam every week on sunday. The marks for one exam are given one week later i.e. the marks for previous sunday are given today. But, one should not mistake the past sunday's marks for this sunday. That means even if you failed in the last sunday's exam, you can still write today(sunday's) exam very well. Similarly, the present gunas one is born with are the result of the past life. Strictly speaking, it is not even the past life, but accumulated result of many past lives. It is result of past. It is not an indicator of present or future. It is not even an accurate indication of the past. And it is not permanent or unalterable either.

Was the original chatur Varna system based on birth or not?
If the system was based on birth, then it should have listed the various clans/families that belong to the various varnas. As far as I know, there is no ancient Indian scripture that lists out all the the families/clans that belong to various Varnas. This is important point to understand that the system of Varnas are not based ONLY on birth. If birth was the only criteria, then the scriptures would have listed out all the families(sir-names) that belong to different Varnas. The scriptures don't do any such thing. Instead, time and again, the scriptures stress on the qualities/vocations/behaviours of the Varna.

Anyway, the chatur varna system is not followed by Hindus today. The system that is followed by Hindus is the same system that is followed universally: Jati system(system of clans/families). Each clan or family jostling to perpetuate its power(and social stature) and increase it(through nepotism, if need be).

Chatur Varna system, it seems to me, broke down long long ago. I think, towards the end of Dwapara Yuga varna system was gone. Gradually, the chatur varna system turned into a jati-kula system.

Link to post

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 09 Dec 2013 12:50

thats some serious comment

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 09 Dec 2013 12:55

assuming he said it. a very big assumption.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 09 Dec 2013 16:15

with the about of intel these guys have , and we all known how deep these guys have links in govt , it might not be just assumptions. i dont think a president esp putin type will make these statements openly.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 09 Dec 2013 16:23

^
Original source for this comment doesn't exist, I did a check yesterday nothing turned up. Most probably a photo shopped lie thunk up with Putin Da Man's photu by some misphyrring Jingo .

member_19686 · Post by **member_19686** » 10 Dec 2013 10:10

http://epaper.dinamalar.com/PUBLICATION ... tml?Mode=1

6 muslims arrested in Madurai trying to kill public bus passengers, plan was to throw pipes filled with iron nails at drivers so that they would lose control of vehicles.