Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[SKrishna]

I have niggling feeling that it is a K4 test reported as A3 to keep things hush hush... Recall the umpteen Prithvi test which were later revealed as K15 development trials.

The squashed low res image looks straight from file. For a real test multiple photos are released. Also the discrepancy in reported weight of the missile... 28T is nearer to reported K4 weight....

Just my suspicions...

[Brando]

Even if the test was for K4, the A3 still needs to go through the required amount of testing. It would be premature to automatically compare news of A3 tests to the Prithvi "tests" just yet.

Also, as far as SLBMs go the Russians want their SLBMs to launch from a moving platform (don't remember exactly how fast) - does the DRDO hope to achieve the same thing from their SLBMs ? Because pontoon launchers aren't going to be able to simulate that.

[ramana]

dinesha if the weight was halved the accelerations would go up quite bit.That would mean its a new vehicle. Hardly something to be qualified by SFC.

[Karan M]

Posted earlier?

http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... n-progress

Astra carriage trials successfully in progress
By SP's Special Correspondent
Photo Credit : DRDO / Land Test

December 21, 2013: While the Tejas team gets set to test the Derby BVRAAM as part of the FOC regime, a team in Pune is ticking off performance points on the indigenous Astra indigenous BVRAAM. The missile, integrated with a modified Su-30MKI is currently undergoing carriage trials, the final phase of trials before a first ever test-firing from an airborne platform next year.

[merlin]

Posted earlier?

http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... n-progress

Astra carriage trials successfully in progress
By SP's Special Correspondent
Photo Credit : DRDO / Land Test

December 21, 2013: While the Tejas team gets set to test the Derby BVRAAM as part of the FOC regime, a team in Pune is ticking off performance points on the indigenous Astra indigenous BVRAAM. The missile, integrated with a modified Su-30MKI is currently undergoing carriage trials, the final phase of trials before a first ever test-firing from an airborne platform next year.

Is that the modified Astra or the older one?

[Singha]

surely not the older one, it has been scrapped long ago.

[Karan M]

Is that the modified Astra or the older one?

New one as singha said. But mk1 with aero performance roughly equal to R77 (range specs) & upgraded electronics.

Dec 12 - breakthrough tests
http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/techno ... 236048.ece

April 13, August 13 - more tests in April, and captive trials continued in August. Captive trials with 3 phases to them.

http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... n-Su-30MKI

TOI snippet in July'13:

"Finally, we changed the entire missile configuration. It has now undergone three successful ground trials. It then underwent captive flight trials in a Sukhoi-30MKI this April. We are over the hump now. We hope to actually fire it from a Sukhoi-30MKI by year-end," said Chander.
With these "developmental flight trials" slated to soon kick off, which will involve a battery of tests covering the entire flight envelope, the aim is to make Astra ready for induction by mid-2015 "if there are no further surprises", added the DRDO chief.

Dec 13, captive trials continue on Su-30, and these are the final ones before firing in 2014
http://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/? ... n-progress

[merlin]

Thanks for the details Karan M!

So Astra Mk. 2 is the one finally going to be flight tested on the Su-30MKI. And ready by 2015. So Derby is interim fit for Tejas Mk. 1 and BVR AAM for Tejas Mk. 2 will be Astra?

I wonder what changes caused 44 km range with 300 kg. weight to change to nearly 100 km range with 168 kg. weight.

[Karan M]

Hi Merlin,

Its actually Astra MK1 (revised). I had done some digging around ranges and basically, that 44 km matches current R77. DRDO is being a bit (too) honest and giving out the practical ranges as versus the inflated 80-100 km etc we usually see for these weapons at high-alt/against ideal targets. MK2 will be firmly a Meteor class missile & a game changer.

Was this posted:

http://www.spsaviation.net/exclusive/?i ... s-revealed

Astra missile to be fired, two variants revealed
By SP's Special Correspondent
Photo Credit : SP's Special Correspondent

Astra MissileJuly 06, 2013: With successful captive trials completed in April, and a fully reconfigured missile now ready for the next phase of development testing, India's indigenous beyond visual range air-to-air missile Astra is set for its debut firing from an aircraft by the end of this year. As first reported in SP's Aviation in March this year, 2013 has been christened 'Astra Year' by DRDO in light of expectations that the Astra beyond visual range air-to-air missile will finally see a flight test firing from an IAF aircraft.

Now, it is confirmed that it will happen. It has also now learnt that while the base version Astra Mk.1 will have an intercept range of 44 km, it will be the Astra Mk.2 that will be a true force multiplier weapon, with an intercept range in excess of 100 km. That, at any rate, is the intended configuration. The Astra will be deployed from underwing hardpoints on the Su-30MKI, not wingtip pylons as earlier intended. The Astra is an all-weather all aspect beyond visual range and close combat missile that will be deployed on the IAF's LCA Tejas, Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000 and possible, the Rafale MMRCA in the future too. The missile sports active radar terminal guidance (dual mode guidance), smokeless propulsion, improve electronic counter-countermeasures and what the DRDO calls improved effectiveness in a multi-target scenario.

To understand what the 44 km range is - its not the maximum but one from the middle of the max and min operational altitudes.

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/India ... s_999.html

The DRDO said Astra will be able to be launched from different altitudes but those alterations would affect the range. It will cover nearly 70 miles when launched from an altitude of just more than 9 miles but only 27 miles when fired from an altitude of 5 miles (9K feet).

At sea level the range is expected to be 13 miles.

Active homing range will be nearly 16 miles.

A longer range version, the Astra Mark 2, will have a 93-mile head on range with a tail chase range of 21 miles. The DRDO also is said to be looking at rocket/ramjet propulsion similar to that used in its Akash surface-to-air missile project.

27 miles, 44 km is the range obtained at 5 miles altitude or 8 km alt.

At 9 miles, say around 15-16 km altitude, the range obtained is 70 miles, or 112 km.

The seeker range is 26 km!!

Look at the R77 range at 20 odd km. Around the same as mentioned for Astra MK1.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... R-77-2.jpg

No wonder the IAF is waiting eagerly for the Astra, it will match the R77 in service, in terms of range but will be better in other areas.
A) More flexible (both CCM and BVR) b ) Local ECCM and complete control over software c) Buddy targeting d) with enhanced seeker range, can be used LOBL at significant ranges

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TigLajcRPNE/U ... 281%29.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/AQJuf3d.jpg

The MK2 being spoken of, will be a game changing missile for the IAF more in the class of a Meteor. At any rate, they can get that done leveraging tech from MRSAM etc (dual propulsion, booster) once the MRSAM gets done and Astra MK1 is finished.

MK2 is slated to (as of now) use dual thrust propulsion as on the LR/MRSAM:

http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12/bv ... p-for.html

India has already developed a dual-pulse rocket motor (enahances the range) for Astra Mk-II. "Self reliance in air launched missile and particularly air-to-air system is of strategic importance considering the new paradigm of air superiority warfare," sources said.

Note, tarmak says that 100 MK1 will be produced "initially" before MK2 but (IMHO) the IAF will likely order more because we have a severe need of ARHs in our inventory, and right now we are paying through our nose for even the relatively shorter ranged types like Derby & Mica (MICA at least has an IR variant which offers some nifty capability).

With some 270 MKIs, LCA, Rafales all coming in, I'd wager IAF is going to order a relatively decent batch of MK1 itself since kinematically it will match R77 and electronics wise it has an edge against the ones we employ currently.

[sum]

Was this posted earlier?
Nirbhay flight video

[Karan M]

As to changes, when the original Astra MK1 prototype was put in tests, it had severe aero issues and had to be scrapped totally.

From 2010 (actual tests): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HtzHWTyO9xc/T ... issile.jpg
From 2011 AI: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 752532.JPG

By 2013: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6iUbQKeR9b4/U ... 770640.JPG

Per Chander they did a detailed redesign...might have shaved off some extra kilos via better avionics (e.g. the new Astra MK1 has a laser prox fuse) and better packaging.

But both have the same range 44Km (8km alt) and 112 km (15-16km alt). LCA has reached 50K feet so far (thats around 15km) so a launch at that height will give MK1 (against approaching target etc) 100 km ranges.

MK2 OTOH, will have a good increase in envelope in that it envisages 93 miles, 150 odd km at high alt. Basically a 30% increase in performance, but more than the numbers alone, fact that it will have a two stage propulsion mean more terminal energy and hence much harder to avoid, and increased no escape zone.

[Aditya_V]

Theoritically, DRDO says it flies 100KM when launched at speed from 15km at 15KM target, so theoratically it can fly longer when launched at 15km altitude mach.9 against helicopter or C-130 flying t 1000 feet? Am I correct for MK-1?

[merlin]

As to changes, when the original Astra MK1 prototype was put in tests, it had severe aero issues and had to be scrapped totally.

From 2010 (actual tests): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HtzHWTyO9xc/T ... issile.jpg
From 2011 AI: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 752532.JPG

By 2013: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6iUbQKeR9b4/U ... 770640.JPG

Per Chander they did a detailed redesign...might have shaved off some extra kilos via better avionics (e.g. the new Astra MK1 has a laser prox fuse) and better packaging.

But both have the same range 44Km (8km alt) and 112 km (15-16km alt). LCA has reached 50K feet so far (thats around 15km) so a launch at that height will give MK1 (against approaching target etc) 100 km ranges.

MK2 OTOH, will have a good increase in envelope in that it envisages 93 miles, 150 odd km at high alt. Basically a 30% increase in performance, but more than the numbers alone, fact that it will have a two stage propulsion mean more terminal energy and hence much harder to avoid, and increased no escape zone.

So which of the 3 images linked to above is going to be test fired from the Su-30MKI this year? I think not the first one for sure, but is it second one or the third? Is the second one the improved Mk. 1 and the third one the Mk. 2?

[Karan M]

Aditya

Heres the envelope of the R77 to get an idea of how the range-target type - alt correlation occurs.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... R-77-2.jpg

Or
http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviatio ... s/aam.html

Range depends on the software as well, and not just the pure ballistic range of the propulsion. Basically, DRDO will test the missile over key parts of expected envelope (obtained via simulation) to validate. Extreme cases which are out of operational envelope - well, the missile is not meant to be used in those conditions typically.

That is because at extreme ranges, the motor is out, and the missile is basically flying on "empty", trading off whatever potential energy it has and converting it into kinetic energy. A few rapid course changes by the target, and the missile may simply no longer have the energy to pursue.

In short, intercepts at extreme ranges against non manouvering dumb targets may occur. But those are pretty unlikely, TBH.

Which is why DRDO's honest appraisal of the Astra at 8 km makes so much sense. They are looking at practical operational conditions.

More than raw range itself, what is exciting about Astra MK1 are the other features (note the actual picture of the latest Astra inserted beside a PS Su-30)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TigLajcRPNE/U ... 281%29.jpg

BVR & CCM (second means it has a very low minimum range & a single aircraft can presumably be all Astra equipped)
Seeker can be slewed to IRST & HMS (this means passive launches - sneaky!)
Autonomous search before launch backs up above two points
Offbore sight launch - another big plus
And yes, buddy mode! (This means fighter 1 launches missile, fighter 2 provides info for MCG. See similar test from SHar Derby here:
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/07/ ... -test.html
(OT: Folks can judge for themselves that if the LCA has the same missile/same or similar radar combo.. )

Astra MK1 is basically a missile which can be very useful in MK1 version itself, which is why I think IAF may order it in substantial numbers.
The buddy part is very interesting because historically, most shoot downs have been of the unaware targets. If a JF-17 sees a Tejas painting it from behind, but a missile comes in from entirely another area...

[Karan M]

As to changes, when the original Astra MK1 prototype was put in tests, it had severe aero issues and had to be scrapped totally.

From 2010 (actual tests): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_HtzHWTyO9xc/T ... issile.jpg
From 2011 AI: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 752532.JPG

By 2013: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6iUbQKeR9b4/U ... 770640.JPG

Per Chander they did a detailed redesign...might have shaved off some extra kilos via better avionics (e.g. the new Astra MK1 has a laser prox fuse) and better packaging.

But both have the same range 44Km (8km alt) and 112 km (15-16km alt). LCA has reached 50K feet so far (thats around 15km) so a launch at that height will give MK1 (against approaching target etc) 100 km ranges.

MK2 OTOH, will have a good increase in envelope in that it envisages 93 miles, 150 odd km at high alt. Basically a 30% increase in performance, but more than the numbers alone, fact that it will have a two stage propulsion mean more terminal energy and hence much harder to avoid, and increased no escape zone.

So which of the 3 images linked to above is going to be test fired from the Su-30MKI this year? I think not the first one for sure, but is it second one or the third? Is the second one the improved Mk. 1 and the third one the Mk. 2?

Third one... its MK1 revised. The second image (2011) is basically WIP MK1 before config was frozen or an indication towards MK2.

Heres an image with the new MK1 test - you can see the missile pic has been inserted into the brochure and was taken from below on the ground.. but PS'ed into the picture as if its an A2A launch

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TigLajcRPNE/U ... 281%29.jpg

[nash]

BVR & CCM (second means it has a very low minimum range & a single aircraft can presumably be all Astra equipped)
Seeker can be slewed to IRST & HMS (this means passive launches - sneaky!)
Autonomous search before launch backs up above two points
Offbore sight launch - another big plus
And yes, buddy mode! (This means fighter 1 launches missile, fighter 2 provides info for MCG. See similar test from SHar Derby here:
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2009/07/ ... -test.html
(OT: Folks can judge for themselves that if the LCA has the same missile/same or similar radar combo.. )

Astra MK1 is basically a missile which can be very useful in MK1 version itself, which is why I think IAF may order it in substantial numbers.
The buddy part is very interesting because historically, most shoot downs have been of the unaware targets. If a JF-17 sees a Tejas painting it from behind, but a missile comes in from entirely another area...

that's what i thought when i first saw this missile at AI-2013.

But in one thing i have some doubts. It has :

AR guidance.
dual mode guidance.
seeker with IRST.

Does it imply that Astra have Multi-seeker. RF+IR in terminal mode in single missile ? and in mid course it will be guided by INS.

Also , Off-bore-sight launch angle is better than earier version of r-73, so it certainlt can be used as CCM.

[Karan M]

dual mode guidance means mid course guidance (with INS/ datalink) and RF (terminal).

IRST means the fighters IRST.

so the missile only has one seeker and that is RF.

PS: if you went to AI 13 share some pics of the eqpt, info boards etc so we can sit and look through them. thats always fun.

[nash]

dual mode guidance means mid course guidance (with INS/ datalink) and RF (terminal).

IRST means the fighters IRST.

so the missile only has one seeker and that is RF.

PS: if you went to AI 13 share some pics of the eqpt, info boards etc so we can sit and look through them. thats always fun.

It say slaving seeker with IRST/HMS and there is RF seeker only for terminal phase, so does it mean IRST can be used as mid-course update?

well i am not expert like you guys so i have some random pics of MAWS, MSWS, Marrech sonar and FCS, AEWC - MC, TRMM, AAAU, ABFU, etc and that too with simple digi..

[Karan M]

what it means is that you can point seeker to where IRST is looking. HMS also operates on same principle.

so heres how the whole thing may work.

so, you detect a target at long range using IRST, approach him silently - his RWR says nothing, use your HMS to lock him up and fire a missile at him at short range barely giving him time to react!

or you can look at them independently and how theyd work with missile

for instance, left or aircraft centerline, 20 degrees is a target. you saw this and your helmet captures the location and sends it to the missile.

now, if in CCM mode, you align seeker there using HMS, use either LOAL (lock on after launch) or LOBL (lock on before launch). since seeker range is few tens of km (26 km), LOBL makes more sense, and off it goes. so you can do this with tejas, su-30 mki, mirage and mig-29. all have HMS. now, here you "lost" surprise since missile went active but might still surprise the target since you are at close range and he is busy putting out flares and not chaff. or using a jammer, because he thinks a short range missile is IR.

now, with IRST ditto. your IRST has detected a target at a particular azimuth, and you dont know the range (you have the LRF for that in Su-30MKI, MiG-29 OLS). if you have a range with the LRF, you can launch it in LOAL mode. most fighters today still dont have LWS sensors (eg PAF F7, Mirage). missile goes to point x, seeker turns on and thats it, you achieved near complete surprise. seeker turned on too late to matter. on the other hand, LOBL will operate as above. advantage though was that as with HMS, you didnt lock on to the target with a FCR so he really didnt have a clue you were there.

>>>well i am not expert like you guys so i have some random pics of MAWS, MSWS, Marrech sonar and FCS, AEWC - MC, TRMM, AAAU, ABFU, etc and that too with simple digi..

man, no expert here, but now you are just tempting us with details. put it all up on picasa and link it here sir! theres always a chance we might learn something new.

[Karan M]

btw, slaving to both IRST and HMS is good because as mentioned, some aircraft have both, some only have one.

[Singha]

back in the heady days of rafale deal some people were claiming rather innovative uses of the OSF + Spectra to achieve missile launch quality target data solutions.

[Karan M]

yup. over the shoulder targeting.

http://www.defesanet.com.br/rafale/noti ... fference-/

During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI (analyzed in more detail in Part 3 of this test), where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invad-ed, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction.

[nash]

@Karan M

So is it like in case of ASTRA if LCA or MKI has IRST of detection range of about 70-100km then they can guide the missile to the target and in case of CCM Mode it can also be done by HMS.

It is kind of innovative because in CCM Mode it will make any DIRCM defense useless and in BVR Mode it will be too late for many fighters.

Here is the link as i said it is from simple digi so quality is not that good.

https://picasaweb.google.com/112251027758229481822/AI13

[Aditya_V]

Not Nirbhay, B-05, K-4, A-IV A-V, anther Prithvi II test, what gives

India test-fires nuclear-capable Prithvi-II missile

I hope we have 1000+plus stocks, 20-25 of these should be fired at Sargodha, Jacocabad, SHorkat raod etc, before being visited by 40 Ship SU-30 Jaguar combo.

Not an anti aircraft gun of PAF should be active after 4 hours of IAF action

[Karan M]

@Karan M

So is it like in case of ASTRA if LCA or MKI has IRST of detection range of about 70-100km then they can guide the missile to the target and in case of CCM Mode it can also be done by HMS.

It is kind of innovative because in CCM Mode it will make any DIRCM defense useless and in BVR Mode it will be too late for many fighters.

Here is the link as i said it is from simple digi so quality is not that good.

https://picasaweb.google.com/112251027758229481822/AI13

With IRST, you still need range, you can use the radar for that - one quick burst or take an offboard fix.

Thanks for the pics!

[Aditya_V]

These days BRF treats Prithvi tests like as if some has fired bullets from Insas.

[morem]

These days BRF treats Prithvi tests like as if some has fired bullets from Insas.

I hope to see a day when Agni tests will be treated the same

[Karan M]

In fact all tests. Ho hum, yet another advanced missile entering the arsenal, good good. So what else?

[Aditya G]

I hope we have 1000+plus stocks, 20-25 of these should be fired at Sargodha, Jacocabad, SHorkat raod etc, before being visited by 40 Ship SU-30 Jaguar combo.

Do we any open source figures on Prithvi production numbers?

One observation: We hardly ever see IAF conducting Prithvi tests.

[vic]

I wonder why DRDO never made any attempt to develop a WVR AAM?

[member_20453]

I wonder why DRDO never made any attempt to develop a WVR AAM?

I think once Astra hit production, it shouldn't be too hard to have a sister version with a long range IR seeker. Astra's success should pave way. I am also comfy with a co-dev with Israel on Python-6

[Aditya_V]

Will the IIR seeker developed for NAG and Helina be useful for a WVR aam , The tech should be similar.

[Prem Kumar]

IMHO WVR AAM is a different ballgame. The aerodynamic agility & the Gs that a dogfight missile has to pull must be greater than a long range missile. There will also be challenges in the level of off-bore targeting needed, over the shoulder firing, seeker performance etc.

[Karan M]

I wonder why DRDO never made any attempt to develop a WVR AAM?

Well, they have so many programs already underway which require their current focus. Plus, resources are not infinite & DRDO head is already complaining that existing funds are just enough to run some programs at full speed (not all) and more funds are required for future programs.

[Aditya_V]

Sometime back a poster posted a link of a DRDO attempt in 70's tp build a radar seeker based short ranged AAM in the 70's which was rejected by the IAF.

[vic]

I wonder why DRDO never made any attempt to develop a WVR AAM?

Well, they have so many programs already underway which require their current focus. Plus, resources are not infinite & DRDO head is already complaining that existing funds are just enough to run some programs at full speed (not all) and more funds are required for future programs.

I meant to say, funds should have been sanctioned to DRDO to develop a WVR AAM as obviously DRDO will not spent from its pocket.

[ramana]

Sometime back a poster posted a link of a DRDO attempt in 70's tp build a radar seeker based short ranged AAM in the 70's which was rejected by the IAF.

Until Kalam came, most of the projects were science projects and not really weapons. And even now some are still in the earlier mode.

[Karan M]

Actually if we see DLRL there were several mission mode programs, and products were delivered. The key issue was competing against mature products and matching/beating their performance. For instance local ATGM < imported wire guided ATGMs.

[SaiK]

so how much time it took for them to add liquids to a randomly chosen prithvi and test fire in salvo mode? since this is done by the user from prod stock, this data on oped can add more value to deterrence.

else, we might as well see a1-700km wala all solid in salvo mode testing.

[Shrinivasan]

so how much time it took for them to add liquids to a randomly chosen prithvi and test fire in salvo mode? since this is done by the user from prod stock, this data on oped can add more value to deterrence.
else, we might as well see a1-700km wala all solid in salvo mode testing.

I don't think the current crop of Prithvi missiles need to be fueled before launch. They are all already fueled and ready. This is IMHO, but would be glad to be corrected. Also there is a Solid Fueled variant of Prithvi too (The IAF variant )