Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby NRao » 30 Mar 2014 08:30


vic
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 30 Mar 2014 12:12

HAL achievements:-

Saras - delayed by 7 years

IJT- delayed by 7 years

LUH- delayed by 3 years

HTT-40-delayed by 3 years

Forgot to set up LCA production line


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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 31 Mar 2014 09:45

Airbus, on its part, claims its A-330MRTT can carry 111 tonnes of fuel to recharge several fighters simultaneously through its aerial refuelling boom system. One such aircraft can support an intercontinental deployment of four fighters, apart from ferrying 50 troops and 12 tonnes of load.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Khalsa » 31 Mar 2014 13:56

on the C-130 Crash
Tragic just plan frekin tragic.

May they rest in peace.
Just can't believe this happened.

A real shock ...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 31 Mar 2014 18:20

Tushar,if the IAF admit that they cannot fight a two-front war we are in deep trouble.It ultimately comes down to numbers-how many aircraft are battleworthy,war reserves,and stocks of missiles and PGMs. In such a situ,it should draw up a contingency plan,to augment the IAF asap,with as many sqds in the interim,and not standing on ceremony or snootiness demanding luxury birds in such a situ.Pak in fact is doing hat Indian did dcade sago,being pragmatic and re-equipping itself with second drawer aircraft which it can afford, build and maintain.

The new DM will have his task cut out and the new PN and cabinet should place national security as the highest priority ,re-equipping the 3 services with vital eqpt. and ordnance on a war footing before war is thrust upon us.If as is expected,Mr.Modi is our next PM with an NDA victory in the elections,there will be a concerted effort by our enemies to swiftly inflict a military debacle upon India to unseat him and the NDA ,most likely a coalition,so that the conniving Congress-wallahs can return to loot and scoot for their firang masters.

The IAF should look ot acquire immediately about 4 sqds of aircraft of types already in service,M-2000s if available and/or MIG-29s.

tushar_m

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tushar_m » 31 Mar 2014 21:00

The main steps to solving any problem within an organisation is to identify the problem & find lope holes.

I think this article depicts that finally we are not living in a cloud that we have a 4-5th largest air force & can tackle anything that will come in our way , without judging enemy's capabilities & our own.

Also can't argue with this

If Narendra Modi wins election, neighbours can expect a more muscular India

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vishvak » 31 Mar 2014 21:24


Isn't it government job to see to it that this doesn't occur in the first place.

May be OT here: viewtopic.php?p=1565269#p1565269

tushar_m

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby tushar_m » 31 Mar 2014 22:46

i know but things will change from 16th may onward's

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby suryag » 31 Mar 2014 23:16

^^^ only if NaMo is at the helm or else it is the same old stuff over and over again

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sanjay » 31 Mar 2014 23:47

A question - a few years ago HAL had a poster or something with the indigenous content % of the aircraft it manufactures. Does anyone remember it or where to find it ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_20453 » 01 Apr 2014 14:40

If NaMo is PM, Gen V.K becomes DM, hmmm looking forward to such a set-up should be some major changes coming up.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Paul » 01 Apr 2014 14:49

VK Singh being a operations man may not be fully into the nitty gritty of bureaucratic decision making. A smart Babu could lead him astray in North Block and he would not know what to do. However if he does become DM, I would love to see JJ Singh's face on that day.

Some like Arun Shourie would be more suitable in crafting policies for bringing in the Private sector and develop collaborations with the DRDO. Also make the so called Bharat Ratnas sweat for their piece of the pie and improve their effieciencies.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 01 Apr 2014 16:55

VKS should be asked to head a committee for indigenisation of Army equipment.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2014 17:27

APJK is a tad old, but perhaps like rfeynman he can do one last great service to the nation by chairing the board that looks into pvt sector participation AND also head of the secret council that oversees the necessary H-bomb tests.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 01 Apr 2014 17:57

Paul wrote:Also make the so called Bharat Ratnas sweat for their piece of the pie and improve their effieciencies.


Err.. I think you mean Navratnas? Or perhaps Maharatnas? (I had this vision of Amartya Sen, APJ A Kalam and CNR Rao doing laps under the watch of a drill sergeant.)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Paul » 01 Apr 2014 18:04

Yes of course BEL, BDL, BEML, and BHEL.

OFB and HAL get a lot of flak in BRF but these Maharatnas ( as you put it) sneak away under the radar.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby jamwal » 01 Apr 2014 19:00

I saw a Heron flying near Jammu airport at an altitude of only 400 - 500 meters. It was in view for 3-5 minutes too.
Never seen this UAV flying so low.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_20453 » 01 Apr 2014 19:24

I don't think VKS is that easy to lead astray by smart babus (smart babus there are none, there are only cunning babus, big difference), I don't see who they could possibly choose.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2014 19:27

move with decisive intent and test the next series of lighter TN weapons.
if things dont work, have people work in startup mode to fix and test again until its just right.

screw the world. all are out to screw us anyway. let them try.

mandatory for SLBMs where no room for compromise on missile form factor exists..everything is gated down to a certain dia and length else the sub bloats and becomes unmanageable like the Delta-IV / Jin "floating dabba" design template.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Victor » 01 Apr 2014 20:24

Paul wrote:VK Singh being a operations man may not be fully into the nitty gritty of bureaucratic decision making. A smart Babu could lead him astray in North Block and he would not know what to do.

Forces have their share of cunning/smart officer-babus who can teach their civvy cousins a thing or two. The HQs are full of them and the only visible difference is in the level of smartness and efficiency. VKS will certainly have used some of these types when he was chief and will use them if he becomes DM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby abhik » 01 Apr 2014 21:19

OT: Appointing VKS as the DM, someone who was part of the 'system', might have its own pitfalls. He has talked about the need for indigenisation but what concrete steps had he taken? IMO we might need somebody to come and shake things up.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sanjay » 01 Apr 2014 22:57

Let me try the question another way - does anyone have any details of the indigenous content for the Jaguar, MiG-21, MiG-27 and Su-30MKI built by HAL ?

Thanks

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_24580 » 01 Apr 2014 23:49

There was an article in the national daily around the time VKS's BJP candidature was declared. It claimed BJP sources saying that there was no chance VKS would be made DM if NDA comes to power.
Victor wrote:Forces have their share of cunning/smart officer-babus who can teach their civvy cousins a thing or two. The HQs are full of them and the only visible difference is in the level of smartness and efficiency. VKS will certainly have used some of these types when he was chief and will use them if he becomes DM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 06:23

Sanjay, page 53 - it would have improved thereafter. Report is from 2006

http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Def ... report.pdf

Also, Su30 MKI -

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 357325080/
http://www.asian-defence.net/2011/07/to ... ukhoi.html

Mind you, the raw material eg some alloys are imported from Russia per agreement and machined in India, spares will be locally made ab initio.
Check here:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1587933#p1587933
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/11/de ... t.html?m=0

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 02 Apr 2014 10:04

Karan M wrote:Sanjay, page 53 - it would have improved thereafter. Report is from 2006

http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Def ... report.pdf

Also, Su30 MKI -

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 357325080/
http://www.asian-defence.net/2011/07/to ... ukhoi.html

Mind you, the raw material eg some alloys are imported from Russia per agreement and machined in India, spares will be locally made ab initio.
Check here:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1587933#p1587933
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/11/de ... t.html?m=0



The HAL committee report is misleading as HAL management made a fool out of the committee by using the term AIRFRAME to show high indigenous % content rather then the indigenous content of whole aircraft which is minuscule.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 10:46

That is completely incorrect, as HAL breaks up the aircraft into airframe and propulsion. If you look at the table clearly, it mentions the engine separately. If they wanted to fool the committee as you allege, they wouldnt even bother mentioning the engine, which is far more complex than most of the aggregates that go into the aircraft. Many of these are made at Lucknow which makes over 1400 accessories - major (entire systems) and minor (smaller units).

http://www.hal-india.com/accessoriesdivision.asp

HYDRAULIC SYSTEM AND POWER CONTROL

Hydraulic Pumps, Accumulators, Actuators, Electro-selectors, Bootstrap Reservoirs and various types of valves

ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL SYSTEM

Cold Air Unit, Water Extractors, Non Return Valves and Venturies
ENGINE FUEL CONTROL SYSTEM

Fuel after Burner regulator and distributor, Main Fuel Distributor, Regulator and After Burner Pump, Plunger Pumps, Fuel Metering Device


INSTRUMENTS

Electrical Indicators, Fuel quantity and flow metering instruments, Flight instruments, Sensors and Switches

ELECTRICAL POWER GENERATION AND CONTROL SYSTEM

AC/DC Generator, Control and Protection Units, AC and DC Master Box, Inverters, Transformer Rectifier Unit, Actuators

UNDERCARRIAGE, WHEELS AND BRAKES

Main and Nose Undercarriage, Main and Nose Wheel, Brake System LRUs

TEST RIGS

Dedicated Test Rigs, custom-built Fuel/Hydraulic Test Rigs and Electrical Test Rigs


Avionics are handled out of Korwa which is now part of the Su-30 program as well, IIRC.

Second, your claim that the indigenous percentage of the entire aircraft is miniscule is similarly incorrect. Most of the Jaguar systems are now made inhouse at HAL and are even supplied abroad as the IAF is the largest user of the type and most of the OEMs who supplied these items no longer make them. Over time, many of the small LRUs, components are being supplied by SIATI. That has helped programs like the Su-30 MKI as well.

How well HAL has mastered most complex aggregates can be judged from programs like the LCA etc when they use similar programs. The undercarriage which HAL makes for the Jaguar and which experience has been used for the LCA as well.

The challenge for HAL remains basically that no aircraft comes with 100% TOT. They have to persevere with indigenization of aggregates to keep the IAF happy and for strategic reasons even if it doesnt make fiscal sense. That they are doing, to give them due credit. Every AR diligently mentions this aspect.

As matter of fact, HALs indigenization by LRU count will remain at mostly the same levels, 80%+ but by value will drop thanks to the DARIN-3 upgrade, which has expensive bought out items from Israel etc for the avionics (radar in particular), and the engine which will take time to locally manufacture and indigenize (F125N).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 11:24

BTW Su-30 MKI -72% is the indigenization level with TOT to HAL and its partners, for those items.

At present, HAL is producing these
aircraft from raw material phase and till
date has delivered 134 aircraft to Indian
Air Force. HAL manufactures around
43000 components for airframe, 6300
for engine, and 9600 for accessories.

HAL makes 72% of the components in
India
with 100% technology absorption
as per the scope defined in the contract


Page 31 - http://www.aeromag.in/sites/default/fil ... .pdf-1.pdf

This is a pretty credible ramp up and is very well for long term IAF serviceability of the type.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 11:30

Net, I am sure that IAF-HAL-DRDO are planning to indigenize a lot of the avionics also as part of Super 30 including the oft quoted displays and mission computing system (which currently uses a Russian MC as part of the system). Its no coincidence that IAF is working on its own Display cum Mission system with DARE, for the Super 30 even as we know hear of Russian delay in fixing problems with the older Sukhois. Expect local indigenization of as much of the avionics integration as possible.

The Russian inputs then will remain critical for the FBW, and certain items like the radar and stores validation when new stores are added. As Astra demonstrates, stores within existing weight limits can be handled inhouse, with only the large items like Brahmos etc requiring large scale structural modification requiring Sukhoi input. It will take time to get there, but will be done.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby P Chitkara » 02 Apr 2014 12:08

Mere replacement of ruskie tyres in SU by MRF has made them (ruskies) unhappy. Wonder what will indigenization of avionics ect. do..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 13:20

They'll have to suck it up, I'm afraid. Same as when BRD/HAL started making MiG spares. If they make fine platforms but can't support them, they cant blame us for keeping our investment going.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 02 Apr 2014 13:26

LCA with imported engine and imported radar is called 65% indigenous. In my book at component level it is only 20% indigenous.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 13:46

The world thinks differently than your book, I'm afraid. There is indigenization by value, and by number of items. The 65% number refers to items.

In items, its design and development and local manufacture. Not every subcomponent has to be locally made. If that is the case, then the AESA radar TOT we are seeking from France with Rafale is not French, but American or Taiwanese or whosoever supplies many of the microprocessors that make up the compute or the small electronic aggregates that go along with the European Tx/Rx modules. So France has to set up a fab for flash memory (sourced from East Asia), a bunch of manufacturers for everything from rare gases to ultra high purity silicon (sourced from Japan) - talk about adding trillions to the development cost, with no end in sight.

Realism demands that a line be drawn at overall design and development with critical non COTs systems indigenized, when it comes to high value items like avionics which make up the bulk of a modern aircraft's cost anyhow.

So think about how unrealistic your premise is and reconsider. LCA has 65% LRUs locally sourced including some in the radar. Aim is to take it to the 80% level which is incredible because the Gripen (the template on which the LCA was sought to be modeled as a program way back) was around 40% in its C/D versions.

That 65% includes stuff like DVRs, hydraulics etc which are being sourced from MSMEs and SMEs in India, and which are still being imported or made under TOT for larger programs. That experience counts for making items for Rafale, AMCA etc as well, which means HAL can outsource more and focus on assembly and integration.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sanjay » 02 Apr 2014 18:15

Karan M - thanks for this excellent guidance and work.

Now let us broaden the field: when we look at the famous 70-30 ratio clearly it is not taking into account all of the above.

Certainly by design only 30-38% of Indian equipment is locally designed but what of licensed production ?

Building a T-72 or Jaguar locally still counts to some extent - and the local content is pretty high in both by components.

What should be the issue (again lost somewhere) is that having done all of this, the next step which is to take designs, play with them and modify has not been done to the extent needed (except for the BMP).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 03 Apr 2014 14:32

And the raw material for Japan's high purity silicon comes from...India! I know a gent who made millions supplying the same to the Japanese.

An intriguing thought.Russia has no equivalent anymore of the MIG-21.The nearest aircraft is the Yak-130 trainer,but the aircraft is sub-sonic and in the same league as the Hawk,SoKo Eagle,Italian Aermacchi,etc.
Why can't the GOI/MOD lobby the Russians to buy a few sqds. of LCAs ,which could be further co-developed into a stealth version,since we are buying hundreds of Sukhois and MIGs? A co-developed single-engined LCA with a Russian/European engine oould find an attractive market to old customers of MIG-21s. Our own requirement is rising from 200-300,and we will have little if any for export purposes. This could be one way of killing two birds with one stone,and also a quid-pro-quo for buying Russian mil. ware.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sanjay » 03 Apr 2014 17:51

HAL says it rolled out 60 aircraft and helos last year:

http://news.in.msn.com/business/hal-sal ... cal-2014-1

Anybody have a clue of the breakdown ?

Back in 2010, I think, they delivered 23 Su-30MKI and said they were aiming for 28 Su-30MKI the next year. Anybody know what production of the Su-30MKI has been like per annum ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2014 18:05

Sanjay wrote:HAL says it rolled out 60 aircraft and helos last year:

http://news.in.msn.com/business/hal-sal ... cal-2014-1

Anybody have a clue of the breakdown ?

Back in 2010, I think, they delivered 23 Su-30MKI and said they were aiming for 28 Su-30MKI the next year. Anybody know what production of the Su-30MKI has been like per annum ?

And, from IDRW
http://idrw.org/?p=35760#more-35760
Some of the HAL highlights for the FY 2013-14 included Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) received for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), sea level, night level (sic) and high altitude trials successfully done for IJT, etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sanjay » 03 Apr 2014 19:19

yup. the question is what is their production rate of various aircraft now ?

Jag production has ended so only Su-30MKI being produced as a combat aircraft plus the Hawk and only the Dhruv as a helo.

The breakdown would be fascinating.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 04 Apr 2014 07:56

My guess - ALH 30, Sukhoi 20, Hawk 10

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby A Sharma » 04 Apr 2014 17:10

HAL Crosses Rs. 15,000 Crore Milestone,
Wins Most Efficient Navratna Award


HAL has notched-up the highest ever turnover of Rs. 15,180 crores for the FY 2013-14 surpassing the previous year's figure of Rs. 14,324 crores. "We crossed the psychological barrier of Rs. 15,000 crores and the production has been pretty good as we produced 60 aircraft and helicopters, achieved the initial operational clearance (II) of LCA and filed record 209 patents during the year", said Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL. "We are preparing the company for 2020 and beyond", he added. HAL’s Value of Production (VOP) for FY 2013-14, stood at Rs. 15,296 crores as against the figure of Rs. 14,202 crores of the previous year. The operating profit went up to Rs. 1,651 crores in the FY 2013-14 as against Rs. 1,194 crores in 2012-13.
In the meantime, HAL received the “Most Efficient Navratna 2013” award at the fifth Dalal Street Investment Journal Awards night held in New Delhi yesterday. HAL Chairman, Dr. R.K. Tyagi received the award from the jury. The awards were presented to the various PSUs in different categories in recognition of their performance and contribution to the Indian economy.
Some of the HAL highlights for the FY 2013-14 included Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) received for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), sea level, night level and high altitude trials successfully done for IJT, induction of first completely Indian manufactured Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer by INS Dega, Visakhapatnam, dedication of ALH-Dhruv, Garuda Vasudha to the nation for exploration of mineral wealth, contribution of structures for Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM) and Crew Module structure assembly for the Human Spaceflight Programme (HSP) to ISRO.
Besides the prudent financial management, the company took several initiatives on R&D front, indigenisation, quality, customer support, IT, HR and CSR. HAL played a vital role during the Uttarakhand flood relief operation during July 2013 as its ALH-Dhruv performed effectively in a massive rescue and relief operation, clocking more than 600 hrs of flying.


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