Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 01 Apr 2014 16:55

VKS should be asked to head a committee for indigenisation of Army equipment.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2014 17:27

APJK is a tad old, but perhaps like rfeynman he can do one last great service to the nation by chairing the board that looks into pvt sector participation AND also head of the secret council that oversees the necessary H-bomb tests.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Viv S » 01 Apr 2014 17:57

Paul wrote:Also make the so called Bharat Ratnas sweat for their piece of the pie and improve their effieciencies.


Err.. I think you mean Navratnas? Or perhaps Maharatnas? (I had this vision of Amartya Sen, APJ A Kalam and CNR Rao doing laps under the watch of a drill sergeant.)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Paul » 01 Apr 2014 18:04

Yes of course BEL, BDL, BEML, and BHEL.

OFB and HAL get a lot of flak in BRF but these Maharatnas ( as you put it) sneak away under the radar.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby jamwal » 01 Apr 2014 19:00

I saw a Heron flying near Jammu airport at an altitude of only 400 - 500 meters. It was in view for 3-5 minutes too.
Never seen this UAV flying so low.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_20453 » 01 Apr 2014 19:24

I don't think VKS is that easy to lead astray by smart babus (smart babus there are none, there are only cunning babus, big difference), I don't see who they could possibly choose.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Singha » 01 Apr 2014 19:27

move with decisive intent and test the next series of lighter TN weapons.
if things dont work, have people work in startup mode to fix and test again until its just right.

screw the world. all are out to screw us anyway. let them try.

mandatory for SLBMs where no room for compromise on missile form factor exists..everything is gated down to a certain dia and length else the sub bloats and becomes unmanageable like the Delta-IV / Jin "floating dabba" design template.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Victor » 01 Apr 2014 20:24

Paul wrote:VK Singh being a operations man may not be fully into the nitty gritty of bureaucratic decision making. A smart Babu could lead him astray in North Block and he would not know what to do.

Forces have their share of cunning/smart officer-babus who can teach their civvy cousins a thing or two. The HQs are full of them and the only visible difference is in the level of smartness and efficiency. VKS will certainly have used some of these types when he was chief and will use them if he becomes DM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby abhik » 01 Apr 2014 21:19

OT: Appointing VKS as the DM, someone who was part of the 'system', might have its own pitfalls. He has talked about the need for indigenisation but what concrete steps had he taken? IMO we might need somebody to come and shake things up.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sanjay » 01 Apr 2014 22:57

Let me try the question another way - does anyone have any details of the indigenous content for the Jaguar, MiG-21, MiG-27 and Su-30MKI built by HAL ?

Thanks

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby member_24580 » 01 Apr 2014 23:49

There was an article in the national daily around the time VKS's BJP candidature was declared. It claimed BJP sources saying that there was no chance VKS would be made DM if NDA comes to power.
Victor wrote:Forces have their share of cunning/smart officer-babus who can teach their civvy cousins a thing or two. The HQs are full of them and the only visible difference is in the level of smartness and efficiency. VKS will certainly have used some of these types when he was chief and will use them if he becomes DM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 06:23

Sanjay, page 53 - it would have improved thereafter. Report is from 2006

http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Def ... report.pdf

Also, Su30 MKI -

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 357325080/
http://www.asian-defence.net/2011/07/to ... ukhoi.html

Mind you, the raw material eg some alloys are imported from Russia per agreement and machined in India, spares will be locally made ab initio.
Check here:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1587933#p1587933
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/11/de ... t.html?m=0

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 02 Apr 2014 10:04

Karan M wrote:Sanjay, page 53 - it would have improved thereafter. Report is from 2006

http://164.100.24.208/ls/CommitteeR/Def ... report.pdf

Also, Su30 MKI -

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Securi ... 357325080/
http://www.asian-defence.net/2011/07/to ... ukhoi.html

Mind you, the raw material eg some alloys are imported from Russia per agreement and machined in India, spares will be locally made ab initio.
Check here:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1587933#p1587933
http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/11/de ... t.html?m=0



The HAL committee report is misleading as HAL management made a fool out of the committee by using the term AIRFRAME to show high indigenous % content rather then the indigenous content of whole aircraft which is minuscule.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 10:46

That is completely incorrect, as HAL breaks up the aircraft into airframe and propulsion. If you look at the table clearly, it mentions the engine separately. If they wanted to fool the committee as you allege, they wouldnt even bother mentioning the engine, which is far more complex than most of the aggregates that go into the aircraft. Many of these are made at Lucknow which makes over 1400 accessories - major (entire systems) and minor (smaller units).

http://www.hal-india.com/accessoriesdivision.asp

HYDRAULIC SYSTEM AND POWER CONTROL

Hydraulic Pumps, Accumulators, Actuators, Electro-selectors, Bootstrap Reservoirs and various types of valves

ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROL SYSTEM

Cold Air Unit, Water Extractors, Non Return Valves and Venturies
ENGINE FUEL CONTROL SYSTEM

Fuel after Burner regulator and distributor, Main Fuel Distributor, Regulator and After Burner Pump, Plunger Pumps, Fuel Metering Device


INSTRUMENTS

Electrical Indicators, Fuel quantity and flow metering instruments, Flight instruments, Sensors and Switches

ELECTRICAL POWER GENERATION AND CONTROL SYSTEM

AC/DC Generator, Control and Protection Units, AC and DC Master Box, Inverters, Transformer Rectifier Unit, Actuators

UNDERCARRIAGE, WHEELS AND BRAKES

Main and Nose Undercarriage, Main and Nose Wheel, Brake System LRUs

TEST RIGS

Dedicated Test Rigs, custom-built Fuel/Hydraulic Test Rigs and Electrical Test Rigs


Avionics are handled out of Korwa which is now part of the Su-30 program as well, IIRC.

Second, your claim that the indigenous percentage of the entire aircraft is miniscule is similarly incorrect. Most of the Jaguar systems are now made inhouse at HAL and are even supplied abroad as the IAF is the largest user of the type and most of the OEMs who supplied these items no longer make them. Over time, many of the small LRUs, components are being supplied by SIATI. That has helped programs like the Su-30 MKI as well.

How well HAL has mastered most complex aggregates can be judged from programs like the LCA etc when they use similar programs. The undercarriage which HAL makes for the Jaguar and which experience has been used for the LCA as well.

The challenge for HAL remains basically that no aircraft comes with 100% TOT. They have to persevere with indigenization of aggregates to keep the IAF happy and for strategic reasons even if it doesnt make fiscal sense. That they are doing, to give them due credit. Every AR diligently mentions this aspect.

As matter of fact, HALs indigenization by LRU count will remain at mostly the same levels, 80%+ but by value will drop thanks to the DARIN-3 upgrade, which has expensive bought out items from Israel etc for the avionics (radar in particular), and the engine which will take time to locally manufacture and indigenize (F125N).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 11:24

BTW Su-30 MKI -72% is the indigenization level with TOT to HAL and its partners, for those items.

At present, HAL is producing these
aircraft from raw material phase and till
date has delivered 134 aircraft to Indian
Air Force. HAL manufactures around
43000 components for airframe, 6300
for engine, and 9600 for accessories.

HAL makes 72% of the components in
India
with 100% technology absorption
as per the scope defined in the contract


Page 31 - http://www.aeromag.in/sites/default/fil ... .pdf-1.pdf

This is a pretty credible ramp up and is very well for long term IAF serviceability of the type.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 11:30

Net, I am sure that IAF-HAL-DRDO are planning to indigenize a lot of the avionics also as part of Super 30 including the oft quoted displays and mission computing system (which currently uses a Russian MC as part of the system). Its no coincidence that IAF is working on its own Display cum Mission system with DARE, for the Super 30 even as we know hear of Russian delay in fixing problems with the older Sukhois. Expect local indigenization of as much of the avionics integration as possible.

The Russian inputs then will remain critical for the FBW, and certain items like the radar and stores validation when new stores are added. As Astra demonstrates, stores within existing weight limits can be handled inhouse, with only the large items like Brahmos etc requiring large scale structural modification requiring Sukhoi input. It will take time to get there, but will be done.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby P Chitkara » 02 Apr 2014 12:08

Mere replacement of ruskie tyres in SU by MRF has made them (ruskies) unhappy. Wonder what will indigenization of avionics ect. do..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 13:20

They'll have to suck it up, I'm afraid. Same as when BRD/HAL started making MiG spares. If they make fine platforms but can't support them, they cant blame us for keeping our investment going.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 02 Apr 2014 13:26

LCA with imported engine and imported radar is called 65% indigenous. In my book at component level it is only 20% indigenous.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Karan M » 02 Apr 2014 13:46

The world thinks differently than your book, I'm afraid. There is indigenization by value, and by number of items. The 65% number refers to items.

In items, its design and development and local manufacture. Not every subcomponent has to be locally made. If that is the case, then the AESA radar TOT we are seeking from France with Rafale is not French, but American or Taiwanese or whosoever supplies many of the microprocessors that make up the compute or the small electronic aggregates that go along with the European Tx/Rx modules. So France has to set up a fab for flash memory (sourced from East Asia), a bunch of manufacturers for everything from rare gases to ultra high purity silicon (sourced from Japan) - talk about adding trillions to the development cost, with no end in sight.

Realism demands that a line be drawn at overall design and development with critical non COTs systems indigenized, when it comes to high value items like avionics which make up the bulk of a modern aircraft's cost anyhow.

So think about how unrealistic your premise is and reconsider. LCA has 65% LRUs locally sourced including some in the radar. Aim is to take it to the 80% level which is incredible because the Gripen (the template on which the LCA was sought to be modeled as a program way back) was around 40% in its C/D versions.

That 65% includes stuff like DVRs, hydraulics etc which are being sourced from MSMEs and SMEs in India, and which are still being imported or made under TOT for larger programs. That experience counts for making items for Rafale, AMCA etc as well, which means HAL can outsource more and focus on assembly and integration.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sanjay » 02 Apr 2014 18:15

Karan M - thanks for this excellent guidance and work.

Now let us broaden the field: when we look at the famous 70-30 ratio clearly it is not taking into account all of the above.

Certainly by design only 30-38% of Indian equipment is locally designed but what of licensed production ?

Building a T-72 or Jaguar locally still counts to some extent - and the local content is pretty high in both by components.

What should be the issue (again lost somewhere) is that having done all of this, the next step which is to take designs, play with them and modify has not been done to the extent needed (except for the BMP).

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 03 Apr 2014 14:32

And the raw material for Japan's high purity silicon comes from...India! I know a gent who made millions supplying the same to the Japanese.

An intriguing thought.Russia has no equivalent anymore of the MIG-21.The nearest aircraft is the Yak-130 trainer,but the aircraft is sub-sonic and in the same league as the Hawk,SoKo Eagle,Italian Aermacchi,etc.
Why can't the GOI/MOD lobby the Russians to buy a few sqds. of LCAs ,which could be further co-developed into a stealth version,since we are buying hundreds of Sukhois and MIGs? A co-developed single-engined LCA with a Russian/European engine oould find an attractive market to old customers of MIG-21s. Our own requirement is rising from 200-300,and we will have little if any for export purposes. This could be one way of killing two birds with one stone,and also a quid-pro-quo for buying Russian mil. ware.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sanjay » 03 Apr 2014 17:51

HAL says it rolled out 60 aircraft and helos last year:

http://news.in.msn.com/business/hal-sal ... cal-2014-1

Anybody have a clue of the breakdown ?

Back in 2010, I think, they delivered 23 Su-30MKI and said they were aiming for 28 Su-30MKI the next year. Anybody know what production of the Su-30MKI has been like per annum ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 03 Apr 2014 18:05

Sanjay wrote:HAL says it rolled out 60 aircraft and helos last year:

http://news.in.msn.com/business/hal-sal ... cal-2014-1

Anybody have a clue of the breakdown ?

Back in 2010, I think, they delivered 23 Su-30MKI and said they were aiming for 28 Su-30MKI the next year. Anybody know what production of the Su-30MKI has been like per annum ?

And, from IDRW
http://idrw.org/?p=35760#more-35760
Some of the HAL highlights for the FY 2013-14 included Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) received for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), sea level, night level (sic) and high altitude trials successfully done for IJT, etc.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Sanjay » 03 Apr 2014 19:19

yup. the question is what is their production rate of various aircraft now ?

Jag production has ended so only Su-30MKI being produced as a combat aircraft plus the Hawk and only the Dhruv as a helo.

The breakdown would be fascinating.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby vic » 04 Apr 2014 07:56

My guess - ALH 30, Sukhoi 20, Hawk 10

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby A Sharma » 04 Apr 2014 17:10

HAL Crosses Rs. 15,000 Crore Milestone,
Wins Most Efficient Navratna Award


HAL has notched-up the highest ever turnover of Rs. 15,180 crores for the FY 2013-14 surpassing the previous year's figure of Rs. 14,324 crores. "We crossed the psychological barrier of Rs. 15,000 crores and the production has been pretty good as we produced 60 aircraft and helicopters, achieved the initial operational clearance (II) of LCA and filed record 209 patents during the year", said Dr. R.K. Tyagi, Chairman, HAL. "We are preparing the company for 2020 and beyond", he added. HAL’s Value of Production (VOP) for FY 2013-14, stood at Rs. 15,296 crores as against the figure of Rs. 14,202 crores of the previous year. The operating profit went up to Rs. 1,651 crores in the FY 2013-14 as against Rs. 1,194 crores in 2012-13.
In the meantime, HAL received the “Most Efficient Navratna 2013” award at the fifth Dalal Street Investment Journal Awards night held in New Delhi yesterday. HAL Chairman, Dr. R.K. Tyagi received the award from the jury. The awards were presented to the various PSUs in different categories in recognition of their performance and contribution to the Indian economy.
Some of the HAL highlights for the FY 2013-14 included Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) received for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), sea level, night level and high altitude trials successfully done for IJT, induction of first completely Indian manufactured Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer by INS Dega, Visakhapatnam, dedication of ALH-Dhruv, Garuda Vasudha to the nation for exploration of mineral wealth, contribution of structures for Mars Orbiter Mission (MOM) and Crew Module structure assembly for the Human Spaceflight Programme (HSP) to ISRO.
Besides the prudent financial management, the company took several initiatives on R&D front, indigenisation, quality, customer support, IT, HR and CSR. HAL played a vital role during the Uttarakhand flood relief operation during July 2013 as its ALH-Dhruv performed effectively in a massive rescue and relief operation, clocking more than 600 hrs of flying.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby arijitkm » 04 Apr 2014 19:10

IAF floats RFI on 85 intermediate trainer Defence News

The inevitable has happened. With the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd HJT-36 intermediate jet trainer delayed beyond the IAF's planned induction schedule, a global RFI has been floated requesting global OEMs to pitch their products for a possible future acquisition.
......
In the RFI, the IAF has stipulated that the aircraft should be easy to fly and have good control response/agility. The flying qualities should preferably conform to Mil-F-8785C and Mil Std 1797-A. The aircraft should demonstrate the following qualities:
(a) Stalling. An unmistakable natural stall warning should be available, irrespective of the configuration.
(b) Spinning. The aircraft must be resistant to spin but it should be possible to perform intentional spin up to six turns to either side and recover safely thereafter. The aircraft behaviour in the spin should be predictable and consistent.
(c) Aerobatics The IJT should be capable of performing loops, barrel rolls, rolls, combination manoeuvres and negative ‘g’ flight without adverse effects on the engine and aircraft structure. The aircraft should be capable of sustained inverted flight for at least 30 seconds at sea level at maximum take-off power.

The aircraft has also been specifically described as a counter-insurgency platform in the RFI. To that end, the IAF has also stipulated that the aircraft should be capable of carrying at least 1000 kg of external load. The aircraft should be equipped with a minimum of five hard points and each hard point on the wing should be stressed to carry at least 300 kg stores. The aircraft should be free from buffet, dutch roll, snaking and wing rock during air to ground weapon training. The aircraft should be capable of employing the following armament:
(a) Gun. A light weight gun/ gun-pod with adequate ammunition for at least five seconds of firing time.
(b) Rocket Pods. Reusable rocket pods.
(c) Bombs. Should be able to carry at least 4 x 250 kg retarded or ballistic bombs. The stations should be capable of employing Carrier Bomb Light Stores (CBLS) type of dispensers for carriage of practice bombs (25 lbs and three Kg).
......

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Austin » 04 Apr 2014 20:41

^^ Likely pressure tactics by IAF to push HAL meet HJT-36 deadlines.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Indranil » 05 Apr 2014 00:22

I agree. I think this is IAF telling HAL get on with IJT, forget HTT-40.

Quite arrogant if you ask me.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Kakkaji » 05 Apr 2014 04:13

Or it could be that the IAF knows that the IJT's problems at this stage are too serious for it to be ready for induction anytime in near future.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 05 Apr 2014 05:41

The IJT's problems last we heard were being sorted out by firang consultants,but the aircraft's dsign appears to have inherent defects,sorting out which will take extra time beyond the deadline set by the IAF.It is therefore putting into operation Plan "B",in advance of the inevitable Dec. debacle...or miracle that may or may not happen.We can see HAL putting pressure upon a new regime and DM-whoever he is,to go "desi",blah,blah,but it will first have to defeat the IAF in this dogfight which has plenty of ammo given HAL's track record.

One can't understand when HAL has the biggest prize in its pocket,LCA production upto 300 aircraft,plus poss. exports if it gets its act right,not to mention MMRCA production when the decision is taken,and ongoing Flanker production with future FGFA birds too,why it doesn't follow sound advice about letting go of the small skirmishes but winning the big battles.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby srai » 05 Apr 2014 06:02

A sad story of Indian aviation is the lost decades in between successful products like IJT-16 and HPT-32. There seem to have been no long term product roadmap on which active R&D were taking place to come up with an incrementally improved iteration/variant. Hopefully, lessons have been learnt and new products like HJT-36 and HTT-40 don't follow the same path like their predessors.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2014 09:02

srai wrote:A sad story of Indian aviation is the lost decades in between successful products like IJT-16 and HPT-32. There seem to have been no long term product roadmap on which active R&D were taking place to come up with an incrementally improved iteration/variant. Hopefully, lessons have been learnt and new products like HJT-36 and HTT-40 don't follow the same path like their predessors.


The HJT 16 went through its share of accidents and improvements before it reached its current status. i knew (personally) st least one pilot who died test flying a HJT 16 at HAL. There were others..

Ultimately in the road to self reliance we will have to make do with less than the latest and best. This is a tough situation because opponents and adversaries will automatically be provided by latest and best to pressure us into importing the same.

I once tried to Google for the names of all the test pilots who died making innovations and improvements of new aircraft in UK, Germany, France and the USA from 1920 to 1970. Not easy to do that online and in the absence of information available to the Indian public about the sacrifices made by the current dominant powers we will always be critical of our own efforts because we do not want failure on the way to success.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby darshhan » 05 Apr 2014 10:00

shiv wrote:
Ultimately in the road to self reliance we will have to make do with less than the latest and best. This is a tough situation because opponents and adversaries will automatically be provided by latest and best to pressure us into importing the same.



+1 Shiv ji. Best/Latest is often the enemy of good enough. The interesting thing is that deploying limited nos. of Latest/Best weaponry is no guarantee to winning wars. When it comes to battlefield, Victory almost always belongs to the country/entity which deploys good enough weaponry capable of being mass produced. It is cheap, efficient and effective manufacturing technologies and capabilities which count more.

In world war 2, Germans often deployed the best weaponry (First Jet, First assault rifles, First cruise missiles, Tanks etc) but still were unable to win. Because they were simply unable to mass produce the above items. In the later and deciding years of the war,their manufacturing capability was much weaker when compared to Americans and Russians who fielded relatively inferior weapons but were able to mass produce them.

In future wars, India's victories will never be guaranteed by fielding few numbers of imported gold plated weaponry. It is the mastery of manufacturing cycles of critical weapon systems which will be much more important.

An interesting example. We had half a dozen C-130s at our disposal. One crash depleted our fleet strength by 16%. One professionally carried out special forces attack can actually wipe out our complete C-130 fleet. Is this the situation we want ourselves to be in?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby ArmenT » 05 Apr 2014 10:04

shiv wrote:I once tried to Google for the names of all the test pilots who died making innovations and improvements of new aircraft in UK, Germany, France and the USA from 1920 to 1970. Not easy to do that online and in the absence of information available to the Indian public about the sacrifices made by the current dominant powers we will always be critical of our own efforts because we do not want failure on the way to success.

You were probably not searching for the same terms that I was. Quick googling search shows:
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/memorial/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:British_test_pilots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._Air_Force_Test_Pilot_School_alumni
http://www.grummanpark.org/content/grumman-test-pilots
etc..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2014 10:08

ArmenT wrote:
shiv wrote:I once tried to Google for the names of all the test pilots who died making innovations and improvements of new aircraft in UK, Germany, France and the USA from 1920 to 1970. Not easy to do that online and in the absence of information available to the Indian public about the sacrifices made by the current dominant powers we will always be critical of our own efforts because we do not want failure on the way to success.

You were probably not searching for the same terms that I was. Quick googling search shows:
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/memorial/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:British_test_pilots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._Air_Force_Test_Pilot_School_alumni
http://www.grummanpark.org/content/grumman-test-pilots
etc..

Many thanks

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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby shiv » 05 Apr 2014 10:32

I am digressing way off topic but my thoughts are just an indicator of how complex the issue is.

Does victory in warfare mean a separate "Air Force Victory" + a separate "navy victory" + a separate "Army victory" leading to national victory?

It is not easy to answer that question, but for any air force, planning for future wars necessarily involves avoiding an "Air Force defeat". It may be that a nation may win a war even if the air force loses out - after all that was what happened to the Vietnamese. But you cannot have an air force that does not mind its weaknesses because navy and army will win a war for the nation.

The air force must necessarily plan to be ready to meet and win all challenges in the foreseeable future with no gaps. The air force canbnot delve into philosophy and say "hey OK - navy looks strong now - so we can be lax", and the air force cannot say "We are OK till 2017 and we will be Ok after 2025. Maybe we can simply not worry about the 2017 to 2025 period. With a bit of luck all will be well"

Unfortunately for the IAF, "meeting all challenges" means facing up to the PLAAF and PAF. Force levels cannot be allowed to drop and that includes training. If we don;t train enough people from 2014 to 2018 - the air force will not have senior leaders from 2029 onwards.

Cursing or praising HAL is no use in the overall scheme of things. HAL must be asked to deliver but alternative plans (Plan B) must be ready. I for one do not believe that the call for foreign IJTs will work. We have never bought a totally new class of aircraft in less than 10 years time. If India needs a proven IJT off the shelf - it will have to be one that is totally proven. Or IAF pilots will have to be sent abroad for some aspects of training. And that takes me to the next point.

When you buiild an aircraft you can do only so much to make it fly. You cannot predict beforehand that it will stall and start a spin at a particular angle of attack and that it will recover at a particular stage. To some extent these things cannot be planned. They have to be tested and corrected after the a/c is built, while testing. Even then aircraft often come with rare unknown defects and some known restrictions in which it is stated that if you stall at xxx altitude at yyy airspped at zzz orientation your only choice is to eject - the aircraft will not recover.

It's a tough life. I hope the IAF gets the IJT/Sitara without too much further delay. News has it that stall testing was done but spin trials are yet to take place (or vice versa) and that BAe was consulted to help add aerodynamic features to make spin more predictable.

Note that India DOES NOT have a vertical wind tunnel for spin testing. Our aviation industry has been built around the philosophy that a lot of the test equipment exists abroad and that we need not invest because we can simply get others to do it. LCA software testing was done in USA until 1998 sanctions. LCA spin trials were in France IIRC and Kaveri flight tests in Russia. Unless we install ALL testing equipment in house in india we cannot even make progress in testing what we make.

Philip
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Location: India

Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby Philip » 05 Apr 2014 10:44

Shiv's last para is what a former VCoAS bemoaned during the last century,advocated it but got little help from the DPSU in Q.

symontk
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Re: Indian Military Aviation- September 29 2013

Postby symontk » 05 Apr 2014 11:24

I saw the IJT flying around recently, it was the white and red one. May be all issues are resolved by now


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