I like how this story grows with every telling.Dhananjay wrote:SH couldn't even take off with load from leh, later they reduced all the load to just 2 missiles still it took double the runway of ef2k and Rafale to take off.
GeorgeWelch wrote:None of the IAF's current planes, including the MKI, could meet the RFP.Dhananjay wrote:IAF has been very thorough in creating these 643 parameters for its needs and operational experience. The teens failed in that so they're useless.
Does that mean they are all useless?
You answer your own question in the bolded part you wrote "None of the IAF's current planes, including the MKI, could meet the RFP." That is why to get additional capability MMRCA parameters were chalked out.It seems here you change the worth of "15 billion" as peanuts, while it gives you so much heartache IAF spending "20 billion" on Rafale.Viv S wrote: For $15 billion (and a threat to bomb them to the stone age), the US got to use Pakistan a base for its operation in Afghanistan.
So you're happy that US denied elected chief minister of gujarat NaMo the visa.brar_w wrote:Have we denied visa to Musharaf?
I don't recall using the words 'peanuts' anywhere. That said, $15 billion is overshadowed by the direct cost of fighting an insurgency (one that's resulted in 60,000 casualties including 15,000 troops) and the economic costs (over $100 billion) that cascade from it.Dhananjay wrote:It seems here you change the worth of "15 billion" as peanuts, while it gives you so much heartache IAF spending "20 billion" on Rafale.
'Threat of stone age should have been enough', based on what? Their objective was to co-opt Pakistan into the GWOT not wage war on it on India's behalf. The fact still is they'll withdraw from Afghanistan, leaving Pakistan battling a raging insurgency.And what a hypocrisy. That threat of "stone age" should have been enough. Why shower them with 15 billion military aid? Suars perpetrate 9/11 to amrika and in return amrika verbally threatens while showering them with military plus economic aid. Making their AF BVR capable.
Its absurd to believe that Pakistan has become 'stronger and richer' as a result. The Paks themselves see it as the current situation as the worst time in their history since 1971 (and tend to blame the US for it).Did amrika ever attack ISI headquarter? Deny visa to genocider musharraf? The thing is that bankrupted porkis are much stronger and richer than before "stone age" threat due to their lover america.
How so? It's one thing to say you want additional capability. It's something quite different to say your existing capability is worthless. Clearly the IAF does not believe the current fleet is worthless or they would not spend so much to keep it around.Dhananjay wrote:GeorgeWelch wrote:
None of the IAF's current planes, including the MKI, could meet the RFP.
Does that mean they are all useless?
No I'm not happy that they denied visa to the Gujrat CM in the past. Having said that the visa denial was not spontaneous but due to certain elements within the establishment and the non governmental forces invoking some laws. Did those laws apply to Musharraf? Or some other laws? Rather then just claiming so and so, it would be better to sift through the laws and see whether they applied to him or whether some other laws applied to him. The bottom line is that neither the french or even India ban Musharraf as is evident from his trips here. Basically no world power issued a ban on Musharaf so to single out USA on this issue is rather pointless. Another point to remember is that there was an EU boycott of Namo as well including a travel ban. Do we now stop dealing with the EU and individual countries? The bottom line is that the rafale is going through despite of the fact that the french are pushing hard to open up the chinese defense market. The Pakfa is going through despite of the fact that russia is selling Su-35 and s-400 air defense to China and helicopters to Pakistan. Similarly, we will continue to buy what we like out of the amrikan industry, be it apaches, P-8's, transport aircraft and what not. That aspect of the relationship is going to grow during Modi's term despite of whatever reservations we may or may not have. I see the military-military ties between US and India only grow under Modi.So you're happy that US denied elected chief minister of gujarat NaMo the visa.
So now that they are successfully co-opted, probably a few JSF their way would be a just reward. I am sure they too now feel indebted to Amerikhans for the co-optionViv S wrote: 'Threat of stone age should have been enough', based on what? There objective was co-opt Pakistan into the GWOT not wage war on it. The fact that they'll withdraw from Afghanistan, leaving Pakistan battling a raging insurgency is simply a fallout.
.The Pakis will never get the JSF.So now that they are successfully co-opted, probably a few JSF their way would be a just reward. I am sure they too now feel indebted to Amerikhans for the co-option
Nawab Bugti had already in interview to a tv channel had said that "your commando general has decided to kill me and my tribe......." within few weeks Nawab Bugti is killed along with many of his tribe and family. Right now a case against mushy on genocide is running, why american laws that judged NaMo as killer of muslims didn't get applied to genocider musharraf?brar_w wrote:Did those laws apply to Musharraf? Or some other laws? Rather then just claiming so and so, it would be better to sift through the laws and see whether they applied to him or whether some other laws applied to him.
Has the EU issued a travel ban on Musharraf? With that yardstick we should break off our ties with them asewell because they issued one on Modi and have not done so with Musharaf based on whatever evidence you have cited?Right now a case against mushy on genocide is running, why american laws that judged NaMo as killer of muslims didn't get applied to genocider musharraf?
Seriously? Just because of that? Today sir the situation is that India is regarded by all western countries as a stable, peaceful and growing economy/country that everyone is open to do business with. Pakistan on the other hand is regarded as a pretty much failed state, that sponsors terror and that is only going to get worst before showing any signs of recovery. Its military is regarded as a direct threat to democracy and so is the ISI. If you think that Pakistan enjoys a special place in the world while India or Bharatvassi are being discriminated then you have a very unique understanding of what is happening. On the contrary, the entire world is looking at Namo to expand relationships. No one cares about Sharif (except China). We have the french looking to sell sensitive technology to India, we have the russians already doing it. The Americans are selling cutting edge P-8's to India (first export customer) and offering joint development of UAV's. None of these things are available to pakistan which has to go begging to china because no one is going to sell advanced 4.5th gen or 5th gen aircraft to it. Not the russians and not the americans.Answer: Because mushy is porki and NaMo is Bharatvaasi!
The US is on its way out of Afghanistan. And as a result of what the US perceives as Pakistani perfidy (supporting the Haqqani/Quetta Shura, harboring OBL, ) and the latter perceives as strong-arm tactics (supporting a pro-India regime in Kabul, drone strikes, Abbottabad raid, etc), their relationship has already proven to be rotten. For now the US needs Pakistan as a withdrawal route and the Pakistan needs the dribble of aid through the CSF fund to remain solvent, so they have little option but grit their teeth and pretend to smile.ravi_g wrote:So now that they are successfully co-opted, probably a few JSF their way would be a just reward. I am sure they too now feel indebted to Amerikhans for the co-option
Now you're diverting by bringing in EU and others.brar_w wrote:Has the EU issued a travel ban on Musharraf? With that yardstick we should break off our ties with them asewell because they issued one on Modi and have not done so with Musharaf based on whatever evidence you have cited?Right now a case against mushy on genocide is running, why american laws that judged NaMo as killer of muslims didn't get applied to genocider musharraf?
What I do not get is why are you singling out just the US? Has the EU also not been silent vis-a-vis Musharaff? Should we not apply the same yardstick and distance our ties with them?Mushy has genocide case against him running but US doesn't deny him visa or take any action against him.
Most of India does not think so, and neither do our armed forces that have greatly expanded military 2 military ties with both the UK and the US. The government also does not think so, and you'll see this in action when the GOI under Modi expands all aspects bilateral relations between the US and India, and this includes M2M relationship and trade.Like porkistan the US and UK will be our enemies forever, some miracle I say some miracle may make china our friend in 500 years, but US, uk, porkis never. Enemies they're enemies they'll be.
I didn't know that Rafale seller France had also denied visa to NaMo or announced such a thing.brar_w wrote: What I do not get is why are you singling out just the US? Has the EU also not been silent vis-a-vis Musharaff? Should we not apply the same yardstick and distance our ties with them?
I'm sure the Chinese have fond memories of the 'great statesman Hon. Shri Jacques Chirac' as well.Dhananjay wrote:But it won't matter to american supporters, to them the great statesman Hon. Shri Jacques Chirac's "we understand Bharat's need to conduct the tests...." in '98 is something to be brushed aside contemptuously while propogating clinton as true friend of Bharat.
Calling France reliable is a joke. Just ask Argentina or Israel or possibly Russia.Austin wrote:Which is to go back to its reliable friend France even though French equipment is inherently pricey.
GeorgeWelch wrote:Calling France reliable is a joke. Just ask Argentina or Israel or possibly Russia.Austin wrote:Which is to go back to its reliable friend France even though French equipment is inherently pricey.
France looks after France, never forget it.
The only thing you can say is that your interests haven't crossed . . . yet.
And let's be honest, the biggest threat that would require the MRCA is China, and how confident are you that China won't buy off France? The same France that is leading the effort to end the EU arms embargo against China?
Even if the US suddenly embargoed everything and your entire MRCA fleet was grounded (which is unlikely, remembering the Iranian F-14s), you still have LCA, MKI, PAK-FA, Mirage, Mig-29, etc, which is more than enough to deal with anything that isn't China.
On the other hand, the one circumstance where you absolutely NEED the MRCA is China, and the one nation that is least likely to embargo you during a conflict with China is the US.
Bottom-line: What have the Indians done about this? Are they willing to do something about it (besides talking)? Are they willing to pressure Jordan? Are they willing to pressure Belgium (that sold F-16s to Jordan, which made it possible for Jordan to offload)?History has proven that every time Pak acquires US weaponry on the pretext of some threat or the other,it is immediately deployed against India.Harpoon missiles,P-3 Orions are required to fight the Taliban Navy?! So what if the F-16s are from Jordan.It is all part of the deal.Jordan will get new US birds thanks to Uncle Sam. Gifting Pak $15B in aid so that it can continue to revamp its military against India,while ostensibly fighting the "Paki Taliban",its own creation,is an absurdity.Part of the money will be used by it to attempt to overthrow Karzai's regime and set up a pro-Paki entity.The bulk of it against India.
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Viv S wrote: The 'American supporters' as you put it, would like equipment to be bought on its merits rather than naive political preferences.
Care to share the in-depth documentation required to maintain such an opinion? How badly did the Super hornet loose to the Mig-29? I would welcome some IAF released evals to form any sort of opinion. No doubt the rafale and Typhoon are superior aircraft while the latter (US fighters) are on their last legs as far as upgrades are concerned despite of having 100's of AESA radars in operation (F-16's and F-18E/F's). Rafale is a better multi role fighter so is the best bet out of the lot. The Mig-29 is no where compared to these fighters in terms of the technology that it fields and is projected to get. To get it up to the mark we would have required an MKI version with the best of Desi, western and russian kit. Too much hassle. The Rafale and typhoon are years younger designs compared to the F-16 and the F-18. The US chose not to develop 4.5 gen aircraft but went in for 5th gen while the europeans have 4.5 gen. The MRCA timelines and nature was such that it disqualified 5th gen aircraft otherwise you will see the euro birds being trounced at most levels when pitted against aircraft like the F-35 and Pakfa. The only export chance is for the Gripen which is light years ahead of the rest in terms of fleet operation and sustainment cost The rafale has perhaps one customer that may prefer it (UAE) but outside of India i doubt it will pick up a major customer.On its merit, the american equipment failed, they lost miserably to ef2k, rafale even mig-29 too
Javelin is on offer as a JV for a NG version (i would imagine). The Apache is an offensive weapon that has been cleared (whats the status on that? btw). UAV co-development is also being spoken aboutBeing ready to sell javelin but rationing the numbers of launcher for the fear of tilting the balance too much is 'naive political preferance'? Strange how come 10 billion dollar C-17 deal is done at the speed of light money paid fms things done, but javelin is still hanging?
http://indianexpress.com/article/world/ ... -to-india/The US has a number of “ground-breaking” defence technologies, including a helicopter and an unmanned aerial vehicle program, to offer to India for co-development and co-production, a top Pentagon official has said.
100% true, russia looks after russia too, but amrika looks after its lover pakistan too besides itself.GeorgeWelch wrote: France looks after France, never forget it.
Even if the US suddenly embargoed everything and your entire MRCA fleet was grounded (which is unlikely, remembering the Iranian F-14s), you still have LCA, MKI, PAK-FA, Mirage, Mig-29, etc, which is more than enough to deal with anything that isn't China.
Then why is IAF even buying MMRCA? Please reread what you've written. Delete it, its beyond stupid. If "MKI, PAK-FA, Mirage, Mig-29...." are enough why you pitch for f-18 / 35?What an absurd thing to say. America's involvement with Pakistan is in direct relation to its interests in the region. Similarly Russia's involvement with china is directly related to its geopolitical and strategic ambitions. The US is not doing charity to pakistan, in return of the aid they give to them they get a puppy lap dog (a disloyal one at that). The public perception of Pakistan in the US is quite bad (Pakistan among 10 most unpopular countries in US: poll). Historically, long term bi-lateral relations are built not on AID, Charity, and shifting strategic interests but through economic development, economic trade, industrial partnerships and other principles of society like democracy, institutional bonds, people to people relationships etc. As the US exits afghanistan, that country's future would rest with the bonds it itself forms with strategic regional partners. It could turn out like Iraq or it could turn to be something quite opposite. The US interest would diminish 5-10 years from now, and with it Pakistan's influence as well (on the US through its double sided blackmailing tactics of having the army, political class and ISI play a cat and mouse game with america and NATO). Bonds formed at the industrial, economic and people to people level are not so fragile that re-adjust themselves every few years based on geopolitics. Pakistan HAS to at all cost align its military with that of China's. We won't see F-35's in the PAF but J-31's100% true, russia looks after russia too, but amrika looks after its lover pakistan too besides itself
Leh trials: a.) The a/c had to stay out in open all night in cold and start up in the morning, all the a/c started easily except ef2k, the engineers of ef2k showed IAF the problem and corrected it, satisfied IAF and in the retest ef2k also passed.brar_w wrote:Care to share the in-depth documentation required to maintain such an opinion? How badly did the Super hornet loose to the Mig-29? I would welcome some IAF released evals to form any sort of opinion.On its merit, the american equipment failed, they lost miserably to ef2k, rafale even mig-29 too
This is why I respect you, that not only have you such a good knowledge but also you never try to peddle american platforms like some others.No doubt the rafale and Typhoon are superior aircraft while the latter (US fighters) are on their last legs as far as upgrades are concerned despite of having 100's of AESA radars in operation (F-16's and F-18E/F's). Rafale is a better multi role fighter so is the best bet out of the lot.
No Mig 29 was not at all for MMRCA, in fact MMRCA was in revolt to russian platforms' unavailability, unreliability completely. I remember in 2008 itself Air Marshal Shri Tyagi had said that in MMRCA "we are looking for an a/c which can do more than just gymnastics in the air..." taking a dig at the mig-35.The Mig-29 is no where compared to these fighters in terms of the technology that it fields and is projected to get. To get it up to the mark we would have required an MKI version with the best of Desi, western and russian kit. Too much hassle.
Sigh ........................ Rip Van Winkle.Unfortunately the Amerikhans will have a really really hard time convincing any serious Indian about JSF
Yes its been cooking for 5 years:NRao wrote:Done on their behalf already. {Not a big deal for those that follow news items}
Next. Hope surprises are not a problem for you.
US offers F35JSF to India as India-US Defence Cooperation grows
But Tehcnology Transfer will be an issue
New Delhi. The India-US defence cooperation seems to be steadily growing with Washington now offering its latest Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35 Lightning-II aircraft to India. But in the long run, there could be limitations over issues of Transfer of Technology (ToT) that India mandates now for major arms deals.
Representatives of Lockheed Martin, which is developing the aircraft, have indicated in the past that the aircraft could be available to India if the Indian Air Force (IAF) opted for the F-16 Super Viper in its quest for some 200 Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCAs) but recently, the company made a presentation to the Indian Navy without this condition.
What does this say? Wrong aircraft for the requirement/mission. Not technically superior (way superior). Anyhow i have always maintained that the rafale was the best multi role of the lot.Leh trials: a.) The a/c had to stay out in open all night in cold and start up in the morning, all the a/c started easily except ef2k, the engineers of ef2k showed IAF the problem and corrected it, satisfied IAF and in the retest ef2k also passed.
b.) Take off with meaningful payload was done and ef2k, rafale, mig 29 did that easily, while both the teens failed to take off, then the payload was reduced to bare minimum (iirc 2 BVR missiles only) and teens took double the runway compared to above 3 a/cs to take off.
What is the situation on the ground is what matters. The F-16, is old. Very useful, YES but with very limited growth capability left in the basic design. The super hornet is only useful if you want high tech and a mix with growlers. Otherwise it is a naval multi role fighter designed within the constraints of using the Hornet as a backdrop (constraints which did not exist in the rafale and typhoon development programs).This is why I respect you, that not only have you such a good knowledge but also you never try to peddle american platforms like some others
JSF in the current context is virtually impossible for the IAF. We are yet to sort out the kinks and sign a contract over the TOT and JV of the PAKFA (with a track record and history of such ventures and transfers of technology). How long would such a deal take to execute with the US, that has traditionally never done such a deal with anyone? Compared to Dassault the US and Lockheed have an immensely successful program in the F-35 from an export potential point of view, expect them to charge an arm and a leg for TOT even if we manage to get a sizable TOT agreement with the US government. As things stand, the relationship is not mature enough to enter even a discussion for TOT.Sigh ........................ Rip Van Winkle.
Khans do not need to do any such thing. Done on their behalf already. {Not a big deal for those that follow news items}
Next. Hope surprises are not a problem for you.
But those are just words without much serious discussion on the same. A TOT of a 5th gen JSF will be a monstrous task that would most likely take a decade or more. This is not going to happen. End of chapterYes its been cooking for 5 years
P-8's, AH-64's, Smaller JV's are the ice breakers. The Raider would be a major step, if it indeed is the helo they have offered. It would be as good a JV one can expect with a western nation (including the french), and a very logical one given that sirkosky and Tata share a relationshipF-16 -> Rafale -> F-35. The F-35 is a generation ahead of the Rafale and superior to the latter at every mission profile (except perhaps for interception).Dhananjay wrote:On its merit, the american equipment failed, they lost miserably to ef2k, rafale even mig-29 too.
This story about 'rationing the numbers of launchers' has already been debunked. Javelin is available for both license production and co-development. It'll be sanctioned as and when funds become available.Being ready to sell javelin but rationing the numbers of launcher for the fear of tilting the balance too much is 'naive political preferance'? Strange how come 10 billion dollar C-17 deal is done at the speed of light money paid fms things done, but javelin is still hanging?
India doesn't need the MMRCA for Pakistan. The current fleet is more than sufficient to inflict a rout on the western front. The real threat here is from China.Dhananjay wrote:
Please make an offer what ToT, what manufacturing of jsf can be done here how much tech LM / boeing will be ready to part with. Or maybe you think that it is not in the national interest of Bharat to manufacture jsf here, as anyway more than 3000 jsf are to be made by US and to get the benefits of huge numbers we should just get them ready made and sign EULA EUMA CISMOA or whatever.Viv S wrote:F-16 -> Rafale -> F-35. The F-35 is a generation ahead of the Rafale and superior to the latter at every mission profile (except perhaps for interception).Dhananjay wrote:On its merit, the american equipment failed, they lost miserably to ef2k, rafale even mig-29 too.
Forget Plan B. Plan A has to be the Tejas. We need it here and now. The F-35 can come down the road.ravi_g wrote:Actually, the Plan B if at all it has to be has to be Indian too. The Russians or the French should be allowed to come in only as a small part of Plan B. Unfortunately the Amerikhans will have a really really hard time convincing any serious Indian about JSF.
FMS sales are relatively streamlined. No long drawn out cost negotiations - all the negotiations are done by the primary customer (i.e US DoD) with export orders simply tacked on at the same cost. The P-8I contract, for example, was signed within 12 months of being proposed to the Indian Navy, with the first aircraft delivered within three years.Spending another 10 years on evaluating JSF would be suicidal. And if the IAF cannot even 'evaluate' it for 10 years then they would have a lot to answer for, in that case.
Political concerns can take precedence for rich countries facing no real enemies.Anyhow this 'only technical no political' is a strange argument.