Artillery: News & Discussion

[jamwal]

what we need to fix the TSP is loads and loads of cheaply made BM21 rocket launchers. police should round up all the illegal gun makers in UP-Bihar belt and give them a simple option - jailtime or start making rockets and launchers to specs provided by OFB with final QA done by regd pvt vendors like tata/mm/lt.
that way our desi katta/kamanchi cottage industry can be given legal work, jobs created, technology improved and put to work in constructive mode.

Are you serious ?

Singhaji 1+. Its time to use metallurgical skills of Ganga doab. They may not have fancy degrees, but their skills are very good. Its time to harp those skills for betterment of India. Its remarkable that these follows have maintained metallurgical juggad in their blood. Imagine, if proper training and/or motivation is given, they can create breakthrough weapons like V2 rockets or AK-47s for Bharath. I wish GoI starts giving small arms manufacturing completely to private sector, so that these talents can be harnessed.

This is what an average kutta manufactured by metallurgical juggad. Get real.

[soumik]

bangalore alone has dozens of high quality plastics, textile, pharma, chemical, machine parts/tools kind of cos.

other than govt run outfits, I am not very aware of the pvt sector producing these kinds of things in gangetic belt. when we look at tag of most manufactured items its usually Guj, MH, or south india or NCR.

so thats around 200 mil people at a very low level of industrialization compared to even indian level.

there does not seem to be even a single car or truck factory in UP or Bihar? this head end acts as the sink for 100s of small parts makers.

west bengal ofcourse has the redoubtable hindustan motors to keep alive the flame .. a state that was the political, educational, intellectual and industrial capital of india during the Raj.

Not quite right of you to paint the entire gangetic belt as an unindustrialized area(under maybe, but not un)
TATA motors is based out of Tatanagar in Jharkahand(nee south Bihar), and has another major plant in Lucknow U.P and one at Pantnagar in Uttarakhand.
Apart from Tata, Maruti is based out of Haryana primarily with two major plants at manesar and Gurgaon, Mahindra assembles the Bolero at Haridwar in Uttarakhand.
Also Honda and yamaha both have major plants at Noida and Hero motors is based out of Uttarakhand as well.

[deejay]

there does not seem to be even a single car or truck factory in UP or Bihar? this head end acts as the sink for 100s of small parts makers.

Big time OT (sorry):
Singha Ji, not in disagreement with your points. I am trying desperately for last 05 yrs to increase industrial base in Bihar through private endeavour (my own set up and other Biharis from out side) in Bihar.

One must understand that Bihar was heavily industrialised but that was in South Bihar or present day Jharkhand. The truncation of Bihar has exposed how the fertile Ganga plains never industrialised. The people here are so attached to their land that the size of land often required for large scale industry is mostly not available easily. Another important factor is lack of electricity production in Bihar. With the Barh NTPC coming on line and Kahelgaon power plant things may improve but really no large scale investments are lined up. There are other factors which may not come in way in say Jharkhand.

Fact of the matter is even we have given up on immediate plans and have reworked to try again at a future date.

[Rahul M]

>> west bengal ofcourse has the redoubtable hindustan motors to keep alive the flame

no more, since the amby factory has shut shop.

some delusional guy tried to make a cheapo chinese/indonesian (I forget which) motorbike under license which was laughed off by customers after a couple of sales and the factory shut shop.

things can change only with a change of govt.

[Singha]

^^ that was probably Xenitis of PC fame. now xenitis, mohun bagan, east bengal all have frozen accounts due to the saradha scam investigation.
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 944963.ece

[Singha]

uttarkhand is a different kettle of fish. relatively more education and less violence prone, power surplus probably, enough land in the terai one hopes...BHEL has a factory in roorkee i think and dehra doon has central instts like ONGC geomapping thing. they can easily prosper.

noida and ghaziabad apparently account for a good proportion of UP GDP and most of its white collar jobs per a newspaper I skimmed recently. being tightly integrated with NCR they are industrialized and modern for sure. its the rest of the huge state that I was referring to.

[Singha]

Singhaji


This is what an average kutta manufactured by metallurgical juggad. Get real.

sure they are in class3 now and unable to do calculus or grasp what it means. yet we who were like that in class3 were doing calculus in class11 a short 7 yrs later. they will likewise ramp up and climb the thought ladder under proper hawkish teachers.

[jamwal]

We have an army which wouldn't accept Indian made rifles, tanks, mortars and howitzer manufactured in plants with fairly high quality control and you expect crap made by people who use metal pipes for musket to pass the scrutiny ? The skill of these people is no better than an ordinary ironsmith. Anyone can get a bunch or pipes, anvil, hammer, scrap metal and make this junk. A majority of this stuff is for one shot only, that too if it doesn't explode in to your face. Even prisoners in south American prisons make this kind of stuff.

All of these people are petty criminals or sell weapons to anti-state elements like maoists, IM etc. These guys should be eliminated with extreme prejudice, not given legitimacy. If you are looking for cottage industry for manufacturing small arms like in US, this isn't the way to go.

[Rahul Mehta]

what we need to fix the TSP is loads and loads of cheaply made BM21 rocket launchers. police should round up all the illegal gun makers in UP-Bihar belt and give them a simple option - jailtime or start making rockets and launchers to specs provided by OFB with final QA done by regd pvt vendors like tata/mm/lt. that way our desi katta/kamanchi cottage industry can be given legal work, jobs created, technology improved and put to work in constructive mode.

+1

For more see, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khyber_Pass_Copy

A Khyber Pass Copy is a firearm manufactured by cottage gunsmiths in the Khyber Pass region between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The area has long had a reputation for producing unlicensed, home-made copies of firearms using whatever materials are available - more often than not, railway rails, scrap motor vehicles and other scrap metal. The quality of such rifles varies widely, ranging from as good as a factory-produced example to dangerously poor.

[Singha]

the merchandise in the khyber pass link looks very impressive. truly an area where TSP >> India. and lord knows they have enough business for such kit.

its all about TOT and providing the right machinery to these cottage industry. just as the lathe machine shops in delhi can produce any part from a NASA rocket to a deep sea driller, so too can our native industry if given right machines and training.

[Karan M]

singha ji, that kybher pass stuff is heavily regulated by ISI. one cant even visit darra and other places without contacts. basically a way to get the tanzeems stuff without POF stamp on it.

[deejay]

^^^ There is Vice news video of Darra where the whole trade lies in ruin. Their earlier video of the same place showed a thriving bazaar. Basically, the Taliban screwed them. I read a Nat Geo edition (eighties vintage) long time back where they had an extensive coverage of Darra Adam Khel. 'Darra Made' during the anti Soviet Ops was quite a reputation for weapons.

[Kakkaji]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11m 11 minutes ago
#MOD2014 update: the indent for electronically upgraded 155 mm Guns has been placed on the Ordnance Factory Board.

I think this is the OFB-made 39 cal Bofors with upgraded electronics, and not the Dhanush which is 45 cal.

Can some one clarify?

[Thakur_B]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11m 11 minutes ago
#MOD2014 update: the indent for electronically upgraded 155 mm Guns has been placed on the Ordnance Factory Board.

I think this is the OFB-made 39 cal Bofors with upgraded electronics, and not the Dhanush which is 45 cal.

Can some one clarify?

Is it related to upgrading older bofors guns with BEL's fire control system ?

[srai]

^^^

It is 155mm 45-calibre Dhanush. It uses those electronics. Initial order is for 114 guns. Projected total requirement is for 414 guns.

[Singha]

in comparison the turkey panter 155mm howitzer seems to have almost no avionics at all. this is the gun the pakis are buying for their 155mm towed needs and a factory from south korea samsung techwin for shells.
http://i.imgur.com/hmKOVcI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/nqKLiN2.jpg
this gun was developed with help from ST kinetics of singapore.

their firtina 155mm SP is a license made samsung K9 thunder, the same one in contention for our SP needs.

[Thakur_B]

^^^

It is 155mm 45-calibre Dhanush. It uses those electronics. Initial order is for 114 guns. Projected total requirement is for 414 guns.

BEL's system preceeds Dhanush.

in comparison the turkey panter 155mm howitzer seems to have almost no avionics at all. this is the gun the pakis are buying for their 155mm towed needs and a factory from south korea samsung techwin for shells.

The turkish Panter weighs 18 tons. In comparison, the projected weight for ARDE's ATAGS is 12 tons. FH77 B05 L52 weighs 13.2 tons.

[pankajs]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11m 11 minutes ago

There is nothing left to test about the OFB Dhanush anymore except to let the Pakistanis evaluate its performance on the LOC.

#OFBDhanush tech: has a modified loading trough to accommodate BMCS Zone-6.
#OFBDhanush tech: modified double baffle muzzle brake.
#OFBDhanush tech: Electronic suite for enhanced firing accuracy and autolaying.
#OFBDhanush tech: Gun recording is done by an onboard inertial navigation system rather than a collimator and detector .
#OFBDhanush tech: has a muzzle velocity radar for MV recordings.
#OFBDhanush tech: Hydraulics has been modified for auto-laying.
#OFBDhanush tech: Sighting is provided by CCD, Thermal imager and laser range finder (LRF).
#OFBDhanush tech: Communication suite is compatible with Shakti and STAR-V
#OFBDhanush tech: Direct fire capability out to 1200 metres.
#OFBDhanush : Electromagnetic compatibility as per JSG-0261 and US MIL-STD-461F.

[member_26622]

Why is the order for Dhanush so low? Pakis outmatch us on artillery numbers and Chinese are million miles ahead in quantity. Is Army not aware ?

Triple the order size and give it to BSF - a gun every 10 Kms to neutralize Pakis >> Within 4 years! If OFB cannot do it then roll over remaining units to Kalyani. OFB will start working miracles under this threat.

As newer versions from DRDO and Pvt players come along, we can sell these 'lightly' used equipment to other friendly countries.

Importing any Euro goodies (APU?) is not cost effective period! Our importing days are over if we want to match up with China with 1/3rd of their budget.

[wig]

Army ignored desi Bofors for 3 years before going for it

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 795611.cms

OFB Dhanush is 155X45

excerpts

TOI has learnt that in 2008 itself the OFB had upgraded an existing Bofors gun of 155x39 calibre to 155x45, and was keen to go for user trials with the Army. The Army Headquarters (AHQ), for reasons best known to it, did not respond positively, say sources here. Though OFB finally got the order to make Bofors-type guns from the Army, this happened only in 2011.

As the calibre goes up, the range also increases. The OFB had modified the existing guns by including new features. The gun upgraded from 155x39 to 155x45 could achieve the desired range of over 40km, which is 5-6km more than the existing guns procured from Sweden. The performance was also displayed to the Army in 2008. But when it came to holding user trials, which is the next step in evaluating a weapon system, Army asked OFB to come through the open tendering mode.

However, the request for proposals (RFP) to buy the guns from the open market did not succeed, and the Army had to revert to OFB again, said sources in this organization. Finally, the OFB got an order to make the guns in 2011. The Desi Bofors, now named Dhanush, are being made in the Gun Carriage Factory at Jabalpur, for which firing trials concluded last month and a DGQA report is awaited.

The gun made in 2008 was upgraded from an existing gun with the Army. At that time, OFB was also ready to give a prototype of the guns within 24 months of getting a go-ahead, with the final production starting 36 months after getting a subsequent clearance.

OFB reminded the Army about its readiness a year later, when the latter sought its views on procuring over 100 upgraded Bofors type guns. At that time, OFB reminded the Army about the upgraded version it had developed and its readiness to take up production.

For the guns with 155x39, OFB had secured the transfer of technology when the howitzers were purchased from Sweden. The ToT covered almost all aspects, though certain spares needed to be purchased from open market vendors.

[Singha]

can someone tell how the fabled "25 litre chamber" is the current gold std in 155/52 in terms of range vs presumably other smaller chamber?
what chamber is being referred here?

my idea was the shell goes in, followed by the modular cylindrical charges which are also 155mm in diameter and boom.
does 25ltr chamber mean its longer and more charges can be fed in behind the shell to improve the muzzle velocity for longer range?

also what is the usefulness of a muzzle velocity radar? does it give the exact speed of shell and hence builds up a data bank of {speed,barrel elevation,charges} that is more accurate than static tables provided by the OEM or army test center.....deviation as barrel wears etc?

unlike hitting a jihadi with a stick, artillery esp this massed coordinated fire thing seems like a highly technical field needing lots of math calculated in real time by the control systems.

[pankajs]

Why is the order for Dhanush so low? Pakis outmatch us on artillery numbers and Chinese are million miles ahead in quantity. Is Army not aware ?

Perhaps they are hoping to start getting 52-cal Atry while this lot is getting delivered. The orders should increase if the 52-cal Atry does not materialize by the time this order is wrapped up.

[Singha]

the quixotic search for the holy grail/sheep with golden fleece continues...

by the time we reach 52, the start of art will be 55 with tech ported from naval applications (most naval guns at 55cal)

and the circle will come back to point zero.

[Pratyush]

Or the Indian Army will realise that they need to move beyond the fetish with the caliber of the gun and start improving the projectiles that it uses.

Most of the new development in the west are in from of improved projectiles.

[pankajs]

I think at some point in the future we can expect Modi to ensure mass induction of indigenous products that are good enough. He needs time to get to the root of the issue i.e poor acceptance of indigenous products, hear out both sides, get the issues resolved and then big time induction. Along with tackling the mindset within the forces he has to change the work culture at MOD, DRDO, OFB and defense PSUs. All that will not happen with a single line order from the top.

Before the end of his first term I expect to see the start of mass induction of a lot of indigenous defense products i.e Mass induction of Arjun Tank, etc.

[Karan M]

first we need a full time def min. i sincerely wonder if jaitley ji can handle two demanding portfolios without risking his health.

[nash]

Some time I wonder what if NaMo takes charge of DefMin also and has a round of meetings with consumer, developer and manufacture to iron out all the issue. It can do wonder to projects like LCA, Arjun, various artillery systems, etc.

PS: He already has space, Atomic and other smaller dept.

[JTull]

first we need a full time def min. i sincerely wonder if jaitley ji can handle two demanding portfolios without risking his health.

He's a long-term diabetic, so his health didn't deteriorate overnight. The gastric band surgery, he had during his first hospitalisation, is a common remedy and was planned ahead. Perhaps the second hospitalisation was just a follow-up. Not aware if it was planned or not.

By all accounts, his health and activity level should improve a lot after this surgery. He has been known to be a keen walker anyway.

Besides, I've not seen any evidence that his work has suffered in anyway. The budget came out on time and more defence projects, tie-ups, ministry clearances have been announced in last 3 months than perhaps Anthonyji managed in 5 years.

All info on his health matters is publicly available.

[Karan M]

Work suffering is one thing, but pressures on health may tell (I hope not). Handling two full time mins issues that crop up 24/7 thanks to the PRC/Pak guys and the rot that exists thanks to that worthless idiot MMS (make peace to Pak expert) and mr do nothing Antony will require far more than usual effort.

[rakall]

first we need a full time def min. i sincerely wonder if jaitley ji can handle two demanding portfolios without risking his health.

He's a long-term diabetic, so his health didn't deteriorate overnight. The gastric band surgery, he had during his first hospitalisation, is a common remedy and was planned ahead. Perhaps the second hospitalisation was just a follow-up. Not aware if it was planned or not.

By all accounts, his health and activity level should improve a lot after this surgery. He has been known to be a keen walker anyway.

Besides, I've not seen any evidence that his work has suffered in anyway. The budget came out on time and more defence projects, tie-ups, ministry clearances have been announced in last 3 months than perhaps Anthonyji managed in 5 years.

All info on his health matters is publicly available.

He contracted a respiratory infection while recovering from the first operation... was admitted in a private hospital where he was not isolated - was receiving a lot of guests.. His situation was deteriorating.. got serious even !!

PM paid him a visit before leaving for US.. and after discussions nudged Jaitley's (reluctant) family to shift him to AIIMS into an isolation ward... and then things went smoothly..

[member_20317]

can someone tell how the fabled "25 litre chamber" is the current gold std in 155/52 in terms of range vs presumably other smaller chamber?
what chamber is being referred here?

my idea was the shell goes in, followed by the modular cylindrical charges which are also 155mm in diameter and boom.
does 25ltr chamber mean its longer and more charges can be fed in behind the shell to improve the muzzle velocity for longer range?

I would like to believe that given certain parameters, every gun would have a sweet spot in terms of chamber size, pressure achieved and barrel length. Mortars for example give a very high pressure for a very short time and hence the acceleration part of the force ergo pressure gets killed.

You would like to have higher velocity for your projectile for longer with a smoother pressure release, in your Howitzer. Hence compared to a Mortar, Bigger Chamber with sufficient Chamber-Barrel ratio > Better acceleration management > Also longer Barrel length > Bigger gas buildup before the projectile has traveled enough in a slower manner > Ability to push for longer distance (meters) in a smoother fashion probably even for smaller times if a fast burn is achieved > thus giving higher yet smoother initial acceleration for projectile in side the barrel > Higher force for same size of shell base for longer > Fuller buildup of pressure for the whole Chamber-Barrel system.

See the figures in this http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/index.php/dsj/article/viewFile/2281/1237. Mujhe bhi sirf pictures hi samaj mein aati hain.

So yes if they say 25 ltr is gold standard then i guess it is.

also what is the usefulness of a muzzle velocity radar? does it give the exact speed of shell and hence builds up a data bank of {speed,barrel elevation,charges} that is more accurate than static tables provided by the OEM or army test center.....deviation as barrel wears etc?

unlike hitting a jihadi with a stick, artillery esp this massed coordinated fire thing seems like a highly technical field needing lots of math calculated in real time by the control systems.

I think that is why they have the muzzle velocity radar fashioned in the way it is for Dhanush. But I wonder how important that really is. There still is no way of understanding properly the atmosphere. Even if you are able to measure not just the exit velocity but also the downrange velocity, you still have to contend with the velocity changes after highest point which is still going to be ruled by Pawan Deva. The older styles of velocity measurements could have been automated too (or so I guess). Besides how would a battery with all 6 howitzers having the MVR fare against 5 dumb and 1 MVR battery. I guess the cost is not so big a factor hence the wish list of MVR on every gun.

Shayed jaroori hoga.

[vaibhav.n]

Muzzle Velocity measurement improves long range accuracy.

In addition,

Improves probability of first round hit which in-turn results in faster response time for Troop/Battery Fire-For-Effect

[JTull]

Thanks rakall.

[vaibhav.n]

In Addition,

First and foremost BiMCS was designed for the barrel length of 52 calibres and projectile chamber of the volume of 23 litres. Based on the ballistic tests of these modules we can say that the BiMCS can be used also in weapon systems with the barrel length of 39, 45 and 47 calibres and with the projectile chamber volume from 18 to 25 litres, which cover a wide range of weapon systems being in service.

Gun Barrel
Calibre: 155 mm
Gun barrel length: L52 (8.06 m)
Compared with the 155 mm howitzer 77B, this gun barrel is about 2 metres longer which improves the range of fire.
Chamber volume: 25 litre
The choice of chamber volume is a deviation from JBMoU which has a 23-litre chamber volume. The reason for this is to facilitate firing heavier rounds with the highest charge without exceeding the gun barrel’s maximum pressure level.

Maximum length is 1000 mm and maximum weight 50 kg to facilitate firing with the highest charge. This is an improvement on the comparable JBMoU barrel. In fact a complete charge system was developed specifically for the gun and its automated load system. This charge system is the Uniflex 2 modular charge. It has 7 increments one of which is a ½ increment giving 12 different charges which can be fired. The theory was that 52 cal barrels should only need 6 charge sizes (ie base + up to 5 standard size modules). Of course 25 Litre isn't JBMoU compliant but and this may be the reason for the half size increments used at lower charges (the larger chamber means lack of range overlap between whole charges).

[Indranil]

Shape of things to come
CFD analysis of muzzle brake for 155 mm X 52 Cal ATAGS

[negi]

^ Perfect opportunity for academic institutions to partner and contribute to DRDO projects , the opening base amount of <1 lakh INR for tender will not attract a lot of CFD people from private industry as they command a pretty high remuneration.

In fact the government needs to realize that if they want such work done for ridiculously low amount then they need to directly tap into top engineering colleges and proactively engage them in such projects , students with fire in belly and not looking for monetary benefits but good work are a better fit for this kind of job , a small CFD firm will not do this kind of work for even INR 2 lakh.

[pankajs]

Saurav Jha @SJha1618 · 11h 11 hours ago

Alright. It seems that the Army has already committed to buying some ATAGS to begin with. Yup things are getting better in this segment.

[pankajs]

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/vie ... Micro=7128

1. Customised Fire Control Software for Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS)
2)Tactical Computer for Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS)

[Thakur_B]

can someone tell how the fabled "25 litre chamber" is the current gold std in 155/52 in terms of range vs presumably other smaller chamber?
what chamber is being referred here?

my idea was the shell goes in, followed by the modular cylindrical charges which are also 155mm in diameter and boom.
does 25ltr chamber mean its longer and more charges can be fed in behind the shell to improve the muzzle velocity for longer range?

25 liter refers to volume of chamber for the shell and the charge. 23 liters is the NATO standard for 52 caliber gun.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004armaments/DayII/SessionII/09Kruger_52_Cal_Leap_Ahead.pdf
^^ Page 6 clearly explains the performance parameter comparison on G6 23 liter and 25 liter version. The difference is clearly 20% more for the 25 liter variant. Too bad the deal with Denel fell through, otherwise Bhim with T6 turret would have been the most impressive artillery system across the board.

What I do not understand though is that the ATAGS brochure states the volume as "23 liter or 25 liter", not sure which one are they making.

[Will]

Any idea what happened to the tender for the two types of guns for which trails were completed? Were bids opened?