India-US Relations : News and Discussion

[johneeG]

It seems to me that the big picture is that now Bhaarath is becoming the non-NATO ally of US. In short, Bhaarath is now taking the position that was given to China&Pak a few years ago to counter Russia&Bhaarath.

I think Bhaarath will get UNSC seat and also lot of tech support. The problem is that US companies will ask for their pound of flesh. It seems to me that Modi decided to side with US after seeing the behaviour of China on the borders.

It seems to me that China has bitten more than it can chew and has overplayed its hands. I think even China realizes that it overplayed its hands against Bhaarath. Thats why there was a statement telling Bhaarath not to fall for the tricks of US.

From China's perspective, it is already facing Japan, Taiwan, and South-Korea. If Myanmar, Vietnam and Bhaarath also join in, then it will be in serious trouble.

However, I don't think either Bhaarath or China want a full fledged war. However, Chinese may have wanted some kind of border skirmishes to deflect their people's attention from the economic slowdown. But, a full-fledged war might not be something that they would want especially if they are surrounded from all sides.

From Bhaarath's perspective, I think Modi decided that Bhaarath needs the support of US technologically and diplomatically to go to the next phase of regional power. A full-fledged war against China will definitely be against the wishes of Bhaarath. Bhaarath would not want to fight a full-scale war against China right now. A war against Pakistan might not be against the wishes of Modi. Modi might not be averse to possibility of a war against Pakistan if it leads to solving the Pakistan problem(i.e. weakening Pakistan or breaking Pakistan). From this perspective, isolating Pakistan is the key. Pakistan's main patron is America. So, taking away the support of America is essentially a death-blow to Pakistan.

From American perspective, I think they want to develop Bhaarath as a counter-weight to China. They started courting China as a counter-weight to Russia. Now, they want Bhaarath to be the counter-weight to China. America might not be averse to a full-fledged war between China and Bhaarath. But, I think China and Bhaarath are intelligent to realize that this is bad deal for both China and Bhaarath. Bhaarath is also an important player in BRICS. Therefore, closer collaboration between America and Bhaarath is a way to dilute BRICS.

So, essentially, this is a complex powerplay. I think Bhaarath should use America just as China had used America to rise. Bhaarath should not become dependent on America like Pakistan had become.

I think the loser in this situation is Pakistan which has become totally dependent on US.

President Nixon and First Lady Pat Nixon walk with the American delegation and their Chinese hosts on the Great Wall of China.

Richard Nixon met with Mao Zedong in 1972.

On July 15, 1971, President Richard Nixon revealed the mission to the world and that he had accepted an invitation to visit the PRC.[50]

This announcement[51] caused immediate shock around the world. In the United States, some of the most hardline anti-communists denounced the decision, but public opinion supported the move and Nixon saw the jump in the polls he had been hoping for. Since Nixon had sterling anti-communist credentials he was all but immune to being called "soft on communism." Nixon and his aides wanted to ensure that coverage of the trip emphasized the bold initiative and offered dramatic imagery. See "Getting to know you: The US and China shake the world" and "The Week that Changed the World" for recordings, documents, and interviews. Nixon was particularly eager for strong news coverage.
President Nixon and First Lady Pat Nixon walk with the American delegation and their Chinese hosts on the Great Wall of China.

Within the PRC there was also opposition from left-wing elements. This effort was allegedly led by Lin Biao, head of the military, who died in a mysterious plane crash over Mongolia while trying to defect to the Soviet Union. His death silenced most internal dissent over the visit.

Internationally, reactions varied. The Soviets were very concerned that two major enemies seemed to have resolved their differences, and the new world alignment contributed significantly to the policy of détente.

America's European allies and Canada were pleased by the initiative, especially since many of them had already recognized the PRC. In Asia, the reaction was far more mixed. Japan was annoyed that it had not been told of the announcement until fifteen minutes before it had been made, and feared that the Americans were abandoning them in favor of the PRC. A short time later, Japan also recognized the PRC and committed to substantial trade with the continental power. South Korea and South Vietnam were both concerned that peace between the United States and the PRC could mean an end to American support for them against their Communist enemies. Throughout the period of rapprochement, both countries had to be regularly assured that they would not be abandoned.

From February 21 to February 28, 1972, President Nixon traveled to Beijing, Hangzhou, and Shanghai. At the conclusion of his trip, the US and the PRC issued the Shanghai Communiqué, a statement of their respective foreign policy views. In the Communiqué, both nations pledged to work toward the full normalization of diplomatic relations. This did not lead to immediate recognition of the People's Republic of China but 'liaison offices' were established in Beijing and Washington.[52] The US acknowledged the PRC position that all Chinese on both sides of the Taiwan Strait maintain that there is only one China and that Taiwan is part of China. The statement enabled the US and PRC to temporarily set aside the issue of Taiwan and open trade and communication. Also, the USA and China both agreed to take action against 'any country' that is to establish 'hegemony' in the Asia-Pacific.[52]

The rapprochement with the United States benefited the PRC immensely and greatly increased its security for the rest of the Cold War. It has been argued that the United States, on the other hand, saw fewer benefits than it had hoped for. The PRC continued to heavily support North Vietnam in the Vietnam War and also backed the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. Eventually, however, the PRC's suspicion of Vietnam's motives led to a break in Sino-Vietnamese cooperation and, upon the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia in 1979, the Sino-Vietnamese War. Both China and the United States backed combatants in Africa against Soviet and Cuban-supported movements. The economic benefits of normalization were slow as it would take decades for American products to penetrate the vast Chinese market. While Nixon's China policy is regarded by many as the highlight of his presidency, others such as William Bundy have argued that it provided very little benefit to the United States.

Wiki Link

The representatives of the PRC first attended the United Nations as representatives of China on October 25, 1971, replacing the ROC.

Wiki Link

On January 1, 1979, the United States changed its diplomatic recognition of Chinese government from Taiwan to China. In the U.S.-PRC Joint Communiqué that announced the change, the United States recognized the People's Republic of China as the government of China. The Joint Communiqué also stated that within this context the people of the United States will maintain cultural, commercial, and other unofficial relations with the people on Taiwan. Since then, the ROC has often been referred to as 'Taiwan' to avoid confusion, although the Chinese government claims Taiwan as a province of China.

On March 1, 1979, the United States and the People's Republic of China formally established embassies in Beijing and Washington, DC. In 1979, outstanding private claims were resolved and a bilateral trade agreement was completed. Vice President Walter Mondale reciprocated Vice Premier Deng's visit with an August 1979 trip to China. This visit led to agreements in September 1980 on maritime affairs, civil aviation links, and textile matters, as well as a bilateral consular convention.
Deng Xiaoping with US President Jimmy Carter

As a consequence of high-level and working-level contacts initiated in 1980, New York City and Beijing become sister cities, US dialogue with the PRC broadened to cover a wide range of issues, including global and regional strategic problems, political-military questions, including arms control, UN, and other multilateral organization affairs, and international narcotics matters.

The expanding relationship that followed normalization was threatened in 1981 by PRC objections to the level of US arms sales to the Republic of China on Taiwan. Secretary of State Alexander Haig visited China in June 1981 in an effort to resolve Chinese concerns about America's unofficial relations with Taiwan. Vice President Bush visited the PRC in May 1982. Eight months of negotiations produced the US-PRC Joint Communiqué of August 17, 1982. In this third communiqué, the US stated its intention to gradually reduce the level of arms sales to the Republic of China, and the PRC described as a fundamental policy their effort to strive for a peaceful resolution to the Taiwan question.

High-level exchanges continued to be a significant means for developing US-PRC relations in the 1980s. President Ronald Reagan and Premier Zhao Ziyang made reciprocal visits in 1984. In July 1985, President Li Xiannian traveled to the United States, the first such visit by a PRC head of state. Vice President Bush visited the PRC in October 1985 and opened the US Consulate General in Chengdu, the US's fourth consular post in the PRC. Further exchanges of cabinet-level officials occurred between 1985 and 1989, capped by President Bush's visit to Beijing in February 1989.

In the period before the June 3–4, 1989 crackdown, a growing number of cultural exchange activities gave the American and Chinese peoples broad exposure to each other's cultural, artistic, and educational achievements. Numerous mainland Chinese professional and official delegations visited the United States each month. Many of these exchanges continued after the suppression of the Tiananmen protests.

Following China's violent suppression of demonstrators in June 1989, the US and other governments enacted a number of measures against of China's violation of human rights. The US suspended high-level official exchanges with the PRC and weapons exports from the US to the PRC. The US also imposed a number of economic sanctions. In the summer of 1990, at the G7 Houston summit, Western nations called for renewed political and economic reforms in mainland China, particularly in the field of human rights.[citation needed]

Tian'anmen disrupted the US-China trade relationship, and US investors' interest in mainland China dropped dramatically. The US government responded to the political repression by suspending certain trade and investment programs on June 5 and 20, 1989. Some sanctions were legislated while others were executive actions.

Wiki Link


So, US started engaging with China from 1972. By 1979, they were quite close to each other and had a very close relationship till 1989. In 1989, US realized that China had become too big for its boots and was not even listening to US.

I think China played it very smartly. I think they took the help of America without going completely against Russia. I think Bhaarath needs to do the same.

Nixon's visit to China in 1972 can be compared to Clinton's visit to Bhaarath in 2000. The 1979 coming together of China and US can be compared to Bush and Obama visits. The delay in Bhaarath's path is congress and left.

[KLNMurthy]

KLNM,

These are not putdowns. Note the details of the major announcements.

1. Resign 10 year defense thing -- ok, no 3 day visit worthy.
2. Nuke deal -- Unless there is legal movement in the parliament backtracking on unlimited liability, this is not going anywhere.
3. Joint projects -- The government projects are pie in the sky (cant even do a howitzer togethet, but want to do aircraft carrier?). With whom will you explore this? Its not like NASA does aircraft carriers.
4. Raven -- really? Isnt this just rice? The fear of bakis going apeshit over "UCAV" means we must say Raven. That will kill the few small UAV manufacturers that were cropping up.
5. Engines -- Not even a second lot of 404, nor 414 firm orders. But GTX redevelopment?

Some are rice and vegetables here -- engines, Raven, 10 years resign, etc. The rest could be big but wont pan out for another 5 years.

So the skepticism is merited. All those CEOs, not a single announcement. What is ordinary, is ordinary. Doesnt mean its not worth doing, but also doesnt mean extraordinary.

Now will they release all the cost numbers for the trip + 1/26 extra security? How will we evaluate success? Do we count the Kerry 250M bribe? Is that not bothersome?

Shreeman, my post wasn't entirely inspired by yours, there has been a general "mahaul" that nothing substantive has come out of the visit, and was it worth the time & money etc. But it is not as though, we are spending this much money on the visit, so there has to be "paisa vasool" once and for all because maybe we have used up all our money and will never get a chance like this again. One of the NY Times articles (I think) put it like this: by inviting Obama for Republic Day, India has finally decided to introduce its hitherto discreet romantic partner to its mother, and bring the relationship out into the open. I found that to be an apt description of this visit. When we do something big like that, it is natural to do it in style, sparing no expense. The (mutual) benefits will be realized over the long term.

I am really not qualified to judge the fine print of each and every deal that did get made. Maybe if you or some other knowledgeable guru had advised, a better deal could have been had regarding manufacturing drones etc. And I think there is a credible school of thought that holds that having a big player inject a relatively new technology will actually spur smaller innovators in that field, rather than suppress them. Some of us who have been around in the 60s and 70s know how much domestic entrepreneurship and innovation got spurred in the absence of injection of foreign capital investment and technology, so there's that data point as well.

The skeptical voices have to be there, to keep a check on the deals and to keep them honest as it were. But I suspect that for Modi, ultimately the problem of how to locally optimize each and every line item of the deal is not so fascinating; he wants to get deals done to prime the pump, and further he sees value for the long-term relationship in the fact of having done the deals themselves.

For the older ones among us, there is also the legacy of frugality in an environment of scarcity and socialist austerity, amounting to a certain parsimoniousness, demanding a return on every paisa spent. It is an excellent virtue under some circumstances, and I would never knock it. But it also occasioned a narrow, constricted view of value accounting, producing such hilariously-naive-in-hindsight arguments like, "bhwat is the need to spend so much money on computers I say, we are a poor country and it will make poor clerks all jobless, and computers are so costly onlee, can you show me how anyone can make money by spending on computers?" (the same argument, mutatis mutandis, was made about phone connections, automobiles, interior decoration, and a host of "unnecessary" stuff) , or the more earnest debates on whether we should be bothering with pure science research at all. Very similar voices today want to know why Modi has to be such a clothes-horse. (Modi's answer was very simple--I discovered sometime during my career that I had a sense of my own clothing style, and I like to express it).

Fact is, we spend money "unproductively" on lavish things all the time. Like weddings, funerals and so on. (I know those get questioned as well) We do that because, up to a point, money, lots of it and smartly spent on putting on a production, can, indeed buy happiness of a sort. And a collective mahaul of happiness makes for a good business relationship, or at least a better relationship than a dour mahaul in which the profit-seeking businessman is treated as a crook to the core, tolerated only because he has something we want.

You are quite right that even the modest, incremental deals might well run aground due, largely to a kind of still-prevailing old-fogey socialist era Indian attitude that wants the products of a business partnership but just can't get excited about the whole process of building lasting business relationships that are also personal, let alone investing some upfront money in openly wooing partners (somehow they never seem to have had a problem when the spending and wooing is done behind closed doors).

Modi is taking a chance on the relationship with the US. Like I said earlier, for better or worse, he does like the US, so for those of us who think having a relationship even at this level with the US is a bad idea, it's too bad, he is the PM and we are not. Then, there is the very real possibility that nothing will come out of it more than words, and everything will flounder and stagnate as before. Maybe, but again Modi sure doesn't see it that way. He is confident he can make it work and pay off for India, or more precisely, for India's young, who are his real boss. His challenge is that he has to work with a team that has too many people steeped in the old-fogey conservative mindset, despite their instinctive admiration for Modi and their sharing of the Indian dream.

[pankajs]

Apart from his stressing Article 25 of the Indian constitution I think rest of Ombaba's trip was above average to good on both the symbolism and the deliverable given that it came within 6 months of their last DC meet.

On the nuke reactor deals, we need to view the progress objectively. Does the new law apply to the NEW Russian reactors that are being talked about? IIRC, the Russian have objected to the liability law in its present form and their deal is under the old regime which implies ZERO liability for them. BTW, the domestic industry too is unwilling to invest under the current liability law.

So either we find a way to grow the industry or just junk the plans for Nuclear power and go whole hog for coal based power plants.

On the nuke deals implementation, Modi is a go getter. If he thinks it is beneficial for the country and the overall cost/benefit favorable, he will make it happen.

On the joint development, these are just the test cases especially given the history of our relationship. India wants the latest where we are deficient but US is reluctant. Where they are eager we are reluctant because it will kill a domestic system that has seen good progress. Also, given the strong export control regime on the US side and our long suspicion of the US intention it is understandable. However, we should not write off the progress being made just because they are small.

On the CEO announcement, we just had a lot during the recently concluded Vibrant Gujarat meet. One must also look at the actual flows that have started. The money flow into India has seen a good increase and the sentiment is supposed to be very positive. Progress will be visible but it will take time.

[Singha]

Indo-US deals are seldom govt to govt but the bulk will be between pvt-pvt or govt(india)-pvt. only the general "blessings" of the top brass in DC is needed and help in clearing out any export controls hindering sensitive items..but really most deals are non sensitive like say some US co invests in a car tire plant here or sets up a subsidiary to make x-ray machines. 1000s of such deals and JVs happen routinely US-China and Japan-China every year. thats the meat we are after. getting TOT for E8 jstars if it happens will be like a viennese black forest cake when all we want is basic dalda iyengar bakery cake by the truckloads.

this is unlike indo-russia - we have very less commercial and people-to-people terms with russia (how many indians want to vacation in US vs moscow, and how many business travellers to russia?) and defence deals is all that matters. so what gets signed on presidential trips is mostly whats in the bag...and some off the books helps on strategic matters.

if modi succeeds in pushing our growth to a sustainably higher level like 7.5% for a couple years, the hotels of metros will be full of execs coming here to make deals.

[Shreeman]

^^^ FMS.

ps -- re. russia, language barrier and lack of promotion of russia unlike the dozens of US libraries and centers. Russia also never "invited" indian workers. Cut out the professionals and relatives and Rusdia will come our on top in travel.

Commerce is different, but food export should rise, defense import/export should rise. Russian trade wont go down. But it wont be comparable to US simply because of services and BPO. $10-15B is not miniscule for india. Not $100B, but not small either.

[pankajs]

Also the symbolism matters a lot. Modi does not go around hugging every world leader does he? As NYT pointed out his hugs have a strategic orientation.

Modi may or may not really like Ombaba and the same applies equally to Ombaba but both have choose to be demonstrative in public. It is a signal to both friends and foes alike. Ombaba is after-all the leader of the so called *free world* and a lot of countries tend to follow the US cue.

OTOH, If there is a genuine change of hearts within the current US Admin about India we might see a lot more happening in the future. We should be skeptical but also alive to the possibilities.

[Shreeman]

Symbolism is a hint of official policy change. The day castro gets a state dinner, cuba is not a terrorist state any longer, etc. So, there is a courting process. But the entrenched interests in the administration and in the states on both sides are not going to make it dictator easy.

I doubt the next US administration is going to be any wiser or more strongly put together. So, its going to be a hit or miss. Time will tell if this white country can truly overcome the fear of the brown men stealing all the good jobs while not even speaking intelligibly.

[pankajs]

The state dinner things reminds me; one of the things that was mentioned was more frequent contact at the very top and not just on the hotline. This is indicative of the seriousness in both capitals to take the relationship forward but we should also acknowledge the entrenched interests of the old guards on both sides that will try to derail progress.

If things pan-out as they should, I see an official state visit by Modi to the US before Ombaba's term is over.

[SSridhar]

I do see a very positive development, which is India forsaking its inward-looking attitude.

The very title of the joint statement, "US-India Joint Strategic Vision for the Asia-Pacific and Indian Ocean Region " is a revelation to me. It also says,inter alia, " . . .that bridge the Asia-Pacific and Indian Ocean region and reflecting our agreement that a closer partnership between the United States and India is indispensable to promoting peace, prosperity and stability in those regions . . ." which, IMHO, recognizes India's role in maintaining peace and security in the Indo-Pacific region.

It goes on to say, "From Africa to East Asia, we will build on our partnership . . . we will promote accelerated infrastructure connectivity and economic development in a manner that links South, Southeast and Central Asia, including by enhancing energy transmission and encouraging free trade and greater people-to-people linkages. ". Again, this admits to India's geopolitical and geostrategic interests over the wide area encompassing Indo-Pacific. and CAR up north.

It is also pleasing to see that the US is also wooing India into APEC after China did so during Xi Jinping's meeting with Modi in BRICS. The reference to EAS summit is also significant as Obama said, after the first time he (and the US) attended the 18-member EAS in c. 2012 for the first time, that the EAS "must be the ‘premier arena . . . to work together on a wide range of issues: maritime security or nonproliferation’, in contrast to SCO, perhaps.

Similarly, the reference to "invest in making trilateral consultations with third countries in the region more robust, deepen regional integration, strengthen regional forums, explore additional multilateral opportunities for engagement" is significant, IMHO as India-US-Japan have just now upgraded their trilateral annual strategic meeting from secretary-level to ministerial-level and as the membership in Ex. Malabar expands with Japan and Australia joining in and the scope also widens.

[Karan M]

Dunno but Democrats seem to come with a lot of baggage and a supercilious attitude. Obama's ref to religion etc was unnecessary. Would he do so after being treated with such graciousness by his western partners?
Somehow the bumbling Bush types were better. They at least wore their hearts on their sleeve or so it seemed. As versus this two steps forward one step backward tango Obama indulges in

[pankajs]

Reference to *Freedom of Religion* would have been ok if it was generic in nature but he specific reference to Article 25 of our constitution made it very pointed and hence unwelcome.

When you provide a platform to a visiting leader you always run risk of unwanted advice especially from those who consider it their birth right. Implies that Modi is still viewed with suspicion by this admin and they just couldn't just let him work this out on his own and they had to intervene. Hope he is aware. Theek hai.

[SSridhar]

Indian leaders should not hesitate to point out problems in the American society, especially when we visit there.

I remember Malaysian Mahatir Mohammed doing this a couple of times and the strident US voices stopped after that. They use some such thing with every country. It is human rights with China and Obama is laying the foundation for needling us with 'freedom of religion'. It must be countered at the highest levels forcefully and without delay.

[CRamS]

Guys, call me what you want, but Obama's reference to religion, especially article 25 of the constitution was gratuitous, condescending, and downright disgusting. Its a direct result of white evangelical lobby in US at the behest of their Indian traitor sepoys who do the soul-harvesting ground work. In my mind, that last statement overwhelmingly negates every other positive, and it shows US attitude in that it simply will not accept a rising Hindu nationalist India.

[Altair]

Now that Obama has given his "Gods Word", I subscribe to Mani Iyer that Obama is a lame duck president.
Our relationship with USA is purely transactional in nature and must remain that way. I don't care if Obama is a LGBT or if American teenagers dance naked for Saudis, I pay to buy and use American technology in a way that's beneficial for me and that's the end of it.

[Cosmo_R]

^^^ FMS.

ps -- re. russia, language barrier and lack of promotion of russia unlike the dozens of US libraries and centers. Russia also never "invited" indian workers. Cut out the professionals and relatives and Rusdia will come our on top in travel.

Commerce is different, but food export should rise, defense import/export should rise. Russian trade wont go down. But it wont be comparable to US simply because of services and BPO. $10-15B is not miniscule for india. Not $100B, but not small either.

Russia centres

https://www.google.com/search?q=russia+ ... 8&oe=utf-8

"Cut out the professionals and relatives and Rusdia will come our on top in travel."

Cut out the cold, the unfriendly natives who mistake you for the people from the Caucasus/Roma and the general suspicion that you are an illegal immigrant, and Russia might make it into the top 10.

They want to sell us arms and stakes in oilfields. They only want to import food now because the Ruble has collapsed against the Euro and USD.

I can't understand this affection for Russia especially when it is not reciprocated.

Not aimed at you Shreeman, just a reaction.

[pankajs]

Indian leaders should not hesitate to point out problems in the American society, especially when we visit there.

I remember Malaysian Mahatir Mohammed doing this a couple of times and the strident US voices stopped after that. They use some such thing with every country. It is human rights with China and Obama is laying the foundation for needling us with 'freedom of religion'. It must be countered at the highest levels forcefully and without delay.

While I agree with you, I have a much simpler solution that does not require a US platform.

Use the Indian media.

The private channels clearly skirt around US issues. Only big flareup like the recent race riot make it and that too for a very short time. In fact the US interest in such cases is clearly protected and a positive image of a *liberal* US is actively promoted.

Revamp the DD and create a world class channel. I rarely watch any news and never DD except for rocket launches so forgive my ignorance abt DD. Anytime a rape happens in US give it full day coverage while posing all the rhetorical question. Anytime a riot or a police atrocity happens do the same. Report human interest stories on poverty, racial conflict, race relation, voter suppression, rape, rape statistics, jail stats, jail race stats, how US is based on judeo-christian principle and a lot of such statement by many prominent American, boys will be boys, exploitation of undocumented worker, etc.

Imagine the ABC news clip running for the full day on a revamped and popular DD where a female soldier alleges that rape is one of the *perks* male soldiers enjoy in the US Army. The image of a female college student carrying her mattress around as a protest against the university doing nothing on her rape complain. About law enforcement cavity search that is *rape* under our laws. A *freedom* loving US having more people in jail than the *Oppressive* Chinese regime while having a quarter of the population. While blacks are ~13% of the US population they make a majority of the US jail population. These are all data that can bring out the real truth about the *liberal* US before the Indian people.

The coverage has to be fact based and not CT. It should be professional and restrained and not frothing at the mouth. The sole aim is to target the *liberal* image of the US that is so dear to it and the Indian media. Show the US up for the hypocrite that it is and all Indians will laugh off the next such statement /advice. It will also empower the average Indian with data to counter motivated negative portrayal of India I will bet that the negative coverage of Indian will reduce dramatically if we start giving equal coverage to the US incidents.

Do the same with every country that does a over the top negative Indian reporting. I mean how many channels showed the news on the *Rape* network run by abduls in UK?

[Altair]

Pankajs
+1 for above post.
This is exactly how we should think and act accordingly.Personally, I am looking to move into media domain from IT sector. Just looking for the right time and place.

[A_Gupta]

^^^Aviation is going to require petroleum products forever. Maybe you can reduce demand for aviation by high speed rail - but that, e.g., is going nowhere in the US of A.

[UlanBatori]

Main outcome I see is that Bhesht-worshipping Fashun-Conscious Indian Mohtermas will now start wearing MO Winter Outfit.

In Mumbai and Dilli and Kerala. In May.

Should reduce the population or at least fertility of these tribes significantly. Average IQ should go up. win-win.

[panduranghari]

Nitpick - it is a specific development of Protestant culture, more than a general "Judeo Christian culture"

One area of blindness we have had in India (as Hindus) is the lumping of all of Christianity and all of Islam together as one (perhaps because all those religions saw us as the same type of pagan). But there are big differences between Protestant and catholic as there are between Sunni and Shia. The nuances are important because of issues like celibacy, divorce and abortion. Hindus have views that are in agreement with Catholics or Protestants depending on the subject.

[vishvak]

Guys, call me what you want, but Obama's reference to religion, especially article 25 of the constitution was gratuitous, condescending, and downright disgusting. Its a direct result of white evangelical lobby in US at the behest of their Indian traitor sepoys who do the soul-harvesting ground work. In my mind, that last statement overwhelmingly negates every other positive, and it shows US attitude in that it simply will not accept a rising Hindu nationalist India.

Wonder why common people of India have to do everything what is to be done well by intellectual/professional/freethinkers. DD International news channel could have a weekly program dedicated to Charlie Hedbo, wherein we ask such questions about USA presidents lecturing others and then bowing down to jihadi/paki supporting non-secular states be it USA/China/Saudi/EU.
DD’s international channel goes global , Aug 6, 2014.
The TV channel is only a tool to be harnessed alright.

[UlanBatori]

Absolutely hilarious

Mumbai: Maharashtra Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis, who missed a dinner date with US President Barack Obama, on Wednesday said he will look into reasons behind the invite not reaching him in time, though it was received at Maharashtra Sadan in Delhi over a week before the event.

"The invitation was received on 17 January onlee. The Ophishial Aphsar conjarned sent it to Mumbai by speed post," Fadnavis told reporters in Mumbai.

"The resident commissioner at Delhi has been asked to send a detailed report. (which will be blank because they didn't do diddly-squat except sit with their thumbs up their musharrafs as they always do). Akshun will be taken as par rules onlee" he said. Oooo! Scary! ( within unneez- bees saal ebhen!)

The invitation to the dinner, which was hosted by Rashtrapati Bhavan for the US President, had been delivered at Delhi's Maharashtra Sadan on January 17, but was not forwarded to Fadnavis in time.

[arshyam]

Cross posting from the 'Managing Chinese threat' page:

The Chinese seem to be somewhat rattled by the Obama visit, hence the slew of articles of late praising Indian achievements, India's independent foreign policy, now looking forward to the Sushma Swaraj visit, it being important, etc. The usual Chinese template sounds like a refined version of the Pakistani press releases, and this latest change in tone is noticeable. Maybe this was an achievement of the Obama visit? We should wait and see how warmly SS is received in China.

[Manny]

Thats right:

No one is questioning your right to worship Shiva at home, but what if somebody goes and installs a statue of Shiva in a mosque? Would it be right? Similarly, is it right to have churches in Tirupati and a mosque at Katra (Vaishno Devi) having no Muslim population. Obama reflected these concerns,” Jain said.

Obama's barb on religious freedom aimed at missionaries and Islamic clerics, thinks VHP

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 11488.aspx

[arshyam]

Pankajs sir, good post. The other alternative is to have an Indian origin American start an RT type channel in the US to give an Indian PoV on world affairs. The disadv would be that such a channel would be US focussed only, not much viewership in India, let alone rest-of-world. But the adv will be that this channel would not be a govt mouthpiece, but a more organic approach. Best is to have both approach - an official Indian channel, and a host of other local channels.

[RoyG]

Sure, there is more trust now between the US and India on a governmental level. However, with the US in decline due to the world slowly unhooking from its currency (which is in our interest btw), what is it that the US is going to do for us? We'll get a few high technology items (critical components will be missing as usual), naval alliance of some sort, a few billion for lessening carbon emissions, H1B, the much hyped but rather benign nuke deal etc. These are just bread crumbs being thrown around for public consumption. This was just a message thrown to China and the entire neighborhood to not push us around, otherwise you may have to deal with two parties. Overall, this was a good development in the foreign policy realm, but it wasn't spectacular.


Let us wait and see what goodies lie in next months budget. I hope that corporates and most importantly of all SME's which have been the main drivers of our growth get a shot in the arm. We need to have confidence in ourselves and our entrepreneurs to deliver on the bulk of our high technology and manufacturing capacity.

[Manny]

Sure, there is more trust now between the US and India on a governmental level. However, with the US in decline due to the world slowly unhooking from its currency (which is in our interest btw), what is it that the US is going to do for us? We'll get a few high technology items (critical components will be missing as usual), naval alliance of some sort, a few billion for lessening carbon emissions, H1B, the much hyped but rather benign nuke deal etc. These are just bread crumbs being thrown around for public consumption. This was just a message thrown to China and the entire neighborhood to not push us around, otherwise you may have to deal with two parties. Overall, this was a good development in the foreign policy realm, but it wasn't spectacular.


Let us wait and see what goodies lie in next months budget. I hope that corporates and most importantly of all SME's which have been the main drivers of our growth get a shot in the arm. We need to have confidence in ourselves and our entrepreneurs to deliver on the bulk of our high technology and manufacturing capacity.

Really?

I am not sure of the confidence since Many JNU type socialists and communists still function well in some communist states and I am worried they will hold back India

[RoyG]

What do "JNU type socialists and communists" have to do with SME's and Corporates being given incentives to produce high technology items and expand our manufacturing base? They've been holding us back from having a more competitive domestic model for production but that's a result of 60+ years of flawed economic and education policy. This is all changing for the better now.

[Shanmukh]

Cut out the cold, the unfriendly natives who mistake you for the people from the Caucasus/Roma and the general suspicion that you are an illegal immigrant, and Russia might make it into the top 10.

I can't understand this affection for Russia especially when it is not reciprocated.

Tell me-do you speak Russian?

[ShyamSP]

Thats right:

No one is questioning your right to worship Shiva at home, but what if somebody goes and installs a statue of Shiva in a mosque? Would it be right? Similarly, is it right to have churches in Tirupati and a mosque at Katra (Vaishno Devi) having no Muslim population. Obama reflected these concerns,” Jain said.

Obama's barb on religious freedom aimed at missionaries and Islamic clerics, thinks VHP

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 11488.aspx

Nice way to retort which media (if it were not DDM) also should do. However, no comment from BJP on that subject and slowly squeezing foreign funds will be right justice to religious freedom. India should deal USA in business terms and nothing more. Putin visit last December should be template for India as none of the extra lectures came out.

Most importantly changing laws on secularism, including definition, will do good for country long term so next Congi-like government doesn't engage in p-sec'ism.


PS: On the dress item, Modi should attend some liberal/elite conferences in India in Brown knickers just for the kick.

[pankajs]

Here is an interesting nugget.

The GOI has *just* decided NOT to pursue the Vodafone tax case any further and go by the Bombay High court's decision in company's favor. Remember, Modi had called such cases tax terrorism during elections. So many including myself have wondered why the GOI did not move to dismiss the case outright or even after the High court decision?

I always had the suspicion that Modi had held back because he wanted to trade it for something however small. As soon as the US president left India we have the decision.

IIRC, Modi got $2 billion (or was it $4 billion) for renewables in return for India's commitment to play a constructive role in Paris and make it a success. The US side has not forgotten India's decision to stand alone in-spite of worldwide condemnation during the Trade Facilitation talks.

I think it was very smart of him to have used the food issue to set expectations very very early in his tenure. Food/farmer issue is a very emotional issue that would have got the whole country behind him.

[ldev]

^^^
Highly unlikely.

It was in all probability Modi implementing his pledge to provide "a stable regulatory and tax regime" as he promised 1/2 days before in his address at the joint business meeting of US and Indian CEOs. If you noticed in that meeting he also pointedly noted that he is monitoring pledges made by US business for FDI made during his last visit to the US and noted actual FDI as a result of that pledge. Here he is reciprocating that when he pledges a stable regime he will implement it not within months but within days i.e. US and other foreign business have a responsive partner in the present GOI.

[KLNMurthy]

Dunno but Democrats seem to come with a lot of baggage and a supercilious attitude. Obama's ref to religion etc was unnecessary. Would he do so after being treated with such graciousness by his western partners?
Somehow the bumbling Bush types were better. They at least wore their hearts on their sleeve or so it seemed. As versus this two steps forward one step backward tango Obama indulges in

The religious freedom reference grated, but we need not make the perfect the enemy of the good.

Also, IMO the Hindu side has done a bad job of framing the ghar walasi debate even for itself, allowing its enemies to frame it as an attack on religious liberty, when it is the exact opposite of that. As another BRFite insightfully noted, it appears that the West largely takes its cue from the sentiments that it sees coming out of India, so Obama's statement can also be understood with that in mind.

Time and again I see this: we do an at best indifferent job of communication and propaganda but expect others to understand us by doing their own thinking, on the right dharmic lines. The world doesnt work like that.

[pankajs]

Saar he called it *tax terrorism* during the election campaign. If his opinion was so *strong* it should have been one of his first acts after assuming office or at least immediately after the high court decision.

So why did he *wait* to make a commitment to the US business and then implement it pronto?

[Karan M]

KLN Murthy, the west sponsors folks in India who put out the messages they want, and turns around and cites those reports as being cause for concern. Lets not be naive here. The Hindu side can frame the ghar wapsi debate any which way it wants, but it is the enemy and will be treated as such. No amount of grovelling or explanations from them will work. Ultimately, its Indias weakness that we have to put up with the pomposity of Obamas who cant even address race issues in their own country, but seek to hector others. But it will change.

[ldev]

I think "Make in India" is very close to Modi's heart. Towards that end he was very keen on early meetings with today's manufacturing powerhouses i.e. Germany, Japan and China. He wanted to meet Merkel on his way to Brazil but could not do so as she left to watch the football world cup, he did manage to visit Japan very soon. And he opened up and gave Xi Jinping a warm welcome but the Chinese decided to kick him in the teeth by pushing the PLA across the border right during Xi Jinping's visit.

[Varoon Shekhar]

Has anyone noted the extreme irony, of Obama delivering a homily( or more) to India on religious freedom, then going off to Saudi Arabia?

It's nice to see some readers of "the Hindu" newspaper, rebuking the hypocrisy of the US on this matter, in the comments section of the "Hindu" article carrying Obama's advice.

[ldev]

Saar he called it *tax terrorism* during the election campaign. If his opinion was so *strong* it should have been one of his first acts after assuming office or at least immediately after the high court decision.

So why did he *wait* to make a commitment to the US business and then implement it pronto?

While Modi comes across as a transactional PM, his vision goes far beyond an immediate 2-4 billion dollars from USG agencies. Political capital/credibility built up via a change in the tax regime to one that is stable and not retrospective and that too within days of pledging it is literally worth a few hundred billion dollars in FDI over Modi's first term. He wants to build India into a $20T economy, credibility and stability are critical for that vision to become a reality.

[sanjaykumar]

Ultimately, its Indias weakness that we have to put up with the pomposity of Obamas who cant even address race issues in their own country, but seek to hector others. But it will change.


That's a bit unfair. Obama is acutely aware that White people's dogs live better in California than most Blacks do in the country. They have health care, good nutrition, can live out their expected life span, are not subject to controversial public executions etc. It seems only NYT reporters are naive of the facts at home.

Now most White liberals do know this, however any scociety has an inertia and it will take time to change course. The fact that they elected Obama is one of the most significant events in Euro/Judeo-Christian history. One can't deny them that.

If I may ask, Jews were heavily involved in the civil rights movement of the 1960s, where are Indians in the US, in Ferguson, in Florida?

[pankajs]

This is exactly how we should think and act accordingly.Personally, I am looking to move into media domain from IT sector. Just looking for the right time and place.

More power to you saar.