Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 22 Jan 2017 19:23

nirav wrote:

Let the Chinese first try and come across army guys in the vid.

Dilli bahooot door hai saars.

wish they had been given a dose of Delhi/Gurgaon road rages...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jan 2017 20:02

ranjan.rao wrote:
nirav wrote:[youtube]J14PCv5rRcc [/youtube ]

Let the Chinese first try and come across army guys in the vid.

Dilli bahooot door hai saars.
wish they had been given a dose of Delhi/Gurgaon road rages...

What I found interesting about the video is
1. No one touches anyone else
2. No one crosses the wall

I guess that if anyone does that, shooting will start

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 22 Jan 2017 20:11

what i find amazing is their audacity to come to an indian post and attempt to throw the stones of the post..do we do that?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jan 2017 20:12

ranjan.rao wrote:what i find amazing is their audacity to come to an indian post and attempt to throw the stones of the post..do we do that?

I am sure we do that.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 22 Jan 2017 22:43

Why r they p-o'ed? That there is a wall in their way to come along the valley and ridge to the other side?

Surprised. They look pretty young, scrawny but probably super-tough like the Indian soldiers. Importantly, they look more comfortable in what seems lighter clothing at that altitude. They were clearly trying to probe & provoke, not do anything else.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Jan 2017 22:52

The above vid is the result of "CBM". Some thought process that arose in the very city the Chinese want to take over in 48 hours.

I had hoped that Doval would have slowed this down substantially.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 22 Jan 2017 23:08

While the Chinese were busy posing for pics on those ridiculous things, IA and bsf were busy clobbering pakis on the border... Quite battle hardened, our boys.

Forget grandiose farts about reaching/air dropping in Delhi, need to tell them.. ye patthar ki lakeer toh cross kar ke dikha. They'd get a clear idea, Indian Hakka noodles are better than Chinese Hakka noodles.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 23 Jan 2017 00:20

There are ways for India to deal with China's rise and cope with its power challenge but it requires bold leadership to execute. Fear that much of this leadership is lacking. Read this Bharat Karnad report on the issue. Be forewarned, be ready to be depressed. But to get a composite picture at a strategic level, it does not get better than this, IMO.

Coping with China’s Rise

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Jan 2017 04:34

From Karnad

The trouble is the bulk of India’s military investment is in an archaic order-of-battle featuring heavy equipment, such as tanks (in three armoured strike corps) that may have made an impression in yesterday’s wars, but are laughably inadequate for the high-technology robotic warfare of tomorrow. But the Indian military seems blissfully outside the military technology innovation mainstream, content to be able to just beat the Pakistan military. Unless there’s a thorough overhaul of the three armed services and proper political instruction to align to China as main threat, the Indian armed forces will be facing in the wrong direction and tuned to fight the wrong war. This makes it easy for the PLA to control the 4,700 kms long disputed border in the mountains.

This makes it easy for the PLA to control the 4,700 kms long disputed border in the mountains. With what, and how? Specifics please otherwise it is armchairing at BRF level or below.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 23 Jan 2017 04:42

sanjaykumar wrote: This makes it easy for the PLA to control the 4,700 kms long disputed border in the mountains. With what, and how? Specifics please otherwise it is armchairing at BRF level or below.

It allows PLA to dictate when and where they choose to escalate and how. Their investments in RMA technologies and infrastructure afford them this luxury. You have to read Karnad for very high level points being made and not bring it down to tactical Orbat and who can do what in which valley. The larger point that is being made for long is misalignment between threats and resources. The fledgling 17th corps is a point. The lack of investment in off shore bases in IOR is a point. Have two strike cores for the eastern sector and the argument goes away.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 23 Jan 2017 05:04

It is highly doubtful they are controlling the 4700km borders. May be few areas where we have natural disadvantage due to geo/deployment/infra. Time and again they have been pushed back after the "intrusions". Had they been that dominating or controlling they would have not vacated just as they dont care about anything in the SCS or the reclaimed islands. Robotics may sound cool, but in that terrain and environment is something i would not count for next 5 years.
While our resolve to become a superpowa may be questioned, we should not forget our resolve to take stand up to the intruders, time and again our soldiers/generals have made not shied from innovating, making supreme sacrifice while facing "insurmountable odds".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2017 05:52

ShauryaT wrote: You have to read Karnad for very high level points being made and not bring it down to tactical Orbat and who can do what in which valley.

This is why I have stopped reading Karnad. He comes through as being a bit of a fraud - talking high level stuff that is disconnected with the ground.

For example the words "infrastructure" have been thrown at us by Karnad and others for so long that any informed Indian will tell you that China has fantastic roads right up to the border with India on which they can bring in 2 divisions to the border at will at short notice.

But where are those roads? Are there roads that are invisible to 1-2 meter resolution Google earth images that I have access to? In what areas do those roads exist? Are they really first class all the way? Does the expansion of facilities to acclimatize Indian soldiers along with better satellite imagery accessible to India not included in Karnad's RMA? Why is there such a huge discrepancy between India and Tibet where India seems to have 5 times as many helipads near the border than China?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 23 Jan 2017 05:56

"This is why I have stopped reading Karnad. He comes through as being a bit of a fraud - talking high level stuff that is disconnected with the ground."

+1 He's just disconnected. A maximalist with no strategy

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 23 Jan 2017 07:28

shiv wrote:
ShauryaT wrote: You have to read Karnad for very high level points being made and not bring it down to tactical Orbat and who can do what in which valley.
This is why I have stopped reading Karnad. He comes through as being a bit of a fraud - talking high level stuff that is disconnected with the ground.

+1

Id like to add that maybe it's time we stop quoting him too.
@ robots, think that ridiculous gyro scoot pic posing soldiers got to Karnad ji..
Facepalm.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2017 07:54

In addition to the point near Bum La which has a great road from Tibet leading up to the border I found one more - image below. This is at the Eastern tip of India - eastern tip of Arunachal in fact where a river valley runs into India. There is an excellent Chinese road (S 201) that runs right up to the border - and ends about 2 km from the border.

On the plus side for China - it is a well maintained road (as per Panoramio images and Google Earth). Heavy vehicles can definitely be brought down the road right up to the border on such a road

On the negative side, the road is along a river valley and more than 200 km long where it joins a main East west highway. There is very little lateral space for spread of any forces that are brought in and the last few km of road can be dominated by Indian artillery from the heights

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 23 Jan 2017 08:10

shiv wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:
But where are those roads? Are there roads that are invisible to 1-2 meter resolution Google earth images that I have access to? In what areas do those roads exist? Are they really first class all the way? Does the expansion of facilities to acclimatize Indian soldiers along with better satellite imagery accessible to India not included in Karnad's RMA? Why is there such a huge discrepancy between India and Tibet where India seems to have 5 times as many helipads near the border than China?

You are looking at the last mile connectivity in certain sectors to make your judgements. Most others including Indian military and intelligence sources are looking at the macro investments made, chief amongst them the railway line (up since 2006) and road connectivity to the region from outside of TAR, including upgrades to TAR infrastructure itself, including C4ISR. It cumulatively allows the PLA to move X tonnage, X divisions, in X time to the area, changing the game to a degree. They have indeed invested in air fields also, extending them to 4500 meters in some cases, making some 14 ALG's in the region.

One can quibble on the matter but bottom line is India has taken notice and is trying to counter, especially since 2010. But you are of course entitled to look at it the way you want to dismissing the above or even calling someone a fraud! The way I look at it the threat scenario is more than just from the border in question.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2017 08:25

ShauryaT wrote: You are looking at the last mile connectivity in certain sectors to make your judgements. Most others including Indian military and intelligence sources are looking at the macro investments made, chief amongst them the railway line

"Most others" is a bluff Shaurya. "Most others" are not doing that.

At least from the military point of view - among the things I have read, I hear a balanced picture of acknowledgement of Chinese investments and the theoretical ability to bring down forces to the border. But that theoretical ability has to be matched with what they can do at the border. If the two don't connect up we get the situation we have now where
1. One set of experts asks us to shiver in our pants (or be ready to get depressed as you said)
2. Others say - we are prepared/preparing

Why is there a disconnect between the two sets of views? Why should I believe only one set and ignore the other?

You mentioned 4500 meter airstrips Shaurya. Have you seen where they are? They are visible on google Earth. I have marked many of them myself. Mentioning that such airstrips exist without tactical level information about what they actually serve is "high level information about how they can change the game". You may be satisfied with that but I am not. Fudging & stonewalling is not an answer and I know Karnad does that - he has too much of an image to maintain to show ignorance in public

Why are they 4500 meters long? How many are there? Exactly where are they situated? What is the effective cover they provide. What would happen if a couple of them are put out of action? Which ones need priotity attention to be put out of action. All this rhetoric about "high level stuff' without any answers about the nitty gritty sounds completely hollow to me because I too have access to people who answer questions even if I don't travel and mix with officials the way Karnad does,

I think both you and Karnad are ignoring the effect technology has had on the availability and exchange of information where "meeting high people up in Delhi", which Karnad does is no more effective than interacting with serving and retired military officers on social media about the exact same questions.

At the very least - assuming that our planners and we are all stupid and Karnad is right - it behoves Karnad to be responsive to the fact that he will get support if he can competently answer questions from an audience that is well aware of many issues. Merely throwing down hoity toity opinions can only go so far.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2017 08:43

ShauryaT wrote:The way I look at it the threat scenario is more than just from the border in question.

You object to my calling Karnad a fraud, but what you are doing is shifting the goalpost.

The entire purpose of this thread is to discuss the nitty gritty. To look at the minutae. It is thousands of minutae that make up the big picture.

If talk about one road is dismissed by saying "Oh China has a 1 trillion economy, or that it has railway lines and high speed trains" the argument is
1. A change of subject from the point of what purpose that one road might serve
2. A refusal to look at the trees because you want to look at the forest.

This is not about who is wrong or who is right. It is only about discussing minutae without being fobbed off by generalities

For you, Karnad and the people housed in Lutyens the "overall picture" matters

For the poor grunt sitting near that road at the border - what that road can do matters. Please don't try and tell me that "something else is more important than what I am talking about". I am talking about the road, not "something else"

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 23 Jan 2017 08:56

If your entire purpose is to discuss the minutiae such as roads then ignore the post I made. Neither me or Karnad, I think, are focused on the chinese boast, literally speaking. You are taking upon yourself to figure the maps and look at things to check the claims, and finding much information. The only thing i will say is some have been assessing these points and are out there in the public domain for 6-10 years now.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 23 Jan 2017 09:09

Shaurya,

What exactly is 'robotic warfare' that the PLA is employing and also which specific areas of RMA do they have a decisive edge to make IAs current capability "laughably inadequate" in BKs own words ?

MSC that the army is in the process of raising is noway a laughably inadequate capability. Would like to know what robotic warfare technology employed by the PLA would make it "laughably inadequate".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2017 09:15

ShauryaT wrote:The only thing i will say is some have been assessing these points and are out there in the public domain for 6-10 years now.

Do you seriously believe that I have not heard this statement before.

The question is "Who?" and "Where is the material available in the public domain?"

If you can point me to some material I will use it. Guess what - I have never seen any of the stuff I am doing in the public domain. Of course "someone" is doing it. But I need to see it. If the information is classified - we come straight back to the point I made when I first started this business in 2013. Every person with a computer and internet connection has access to high resolution satellite images. Anyone can make a public domain analysis. But where are the analyses? "They exist" is not an answer

On the point of ignoring your post - I have a reason for not ignoring posts that link to material than can cause anxiety or depression. You did ask readers to prepare to get depressed. Reading this same depression causing material over many years I have found myself asking questions that are not being answered. You have in fact repeated many of the points that I have read without providing the answer to the questions that arise from those points

1. China has built great roads and railways: - but where do they lead?
2. China has built many new runways: - but where are they and what are the threats they pose?
3. China has huge forces stationed in Tibet: Where are they? How is China coping with the physical problems (altitude) and logistics? Are there any exploitable weak links

China's economy and Naval forces are a separate issue from all this

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 23 Jan 2017 09:38

Shiv ji: All I can do is start posting, things I have read over the years, I am not sure, it deals with the issues at the level you are looking at.

China’s Infrastructure Development in Tibet

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 23 Jan 2017 10:16

I believe the discussion on infrastructure in the TAR misses the point. What China has succeeded in doing with its infrastructure is increase the number of tourists visiting Tibet, from 0.5 million to 15 million, in the last 10 years. That seems a better strategy to integrate Tibet with China, than one where the PLA is an occupying army. Of course, those railways and roads can also move troops towars the border with India, but they would have the limitations that Shiv mentions in the previous post.

It does not matter much if the PLAAF builds new airfields with 4500m ? runways. All aircraft operating in Tibet would have severe payload restrictions due to the altitude. There would need to be more SAM batteries to protect those airfields. Spreading a fixed no of aircraft over multiple dispersed locations might actually reduce their effectiveness.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2017 10:21

ShauryaT wrote:Shiv ji: All I can do is start posting, things I have read over the years, I am not sure, it deals with the issues at the level you are looking at.

China’s Infrastructure Development in Tibet

Sorry Shaurya. This is a well researched paper that tells me nothing new.

It was because I read such stuff that I started asking the questions I am asking. Let me quote

On the contrary, China has built fantastic roads right up to the LaC in arunachal as well as Ladakh, ensuring a smooth chain of supply and having an edge over its Indian counterparts. The infrastructure development is vital to bolster India’s troop mobility and logistics supply in the forward areas, especially since some existing roads simply stop dead as far as 60-80 km from the LaC. From extensive interactions with Indian troops on the ground in these areas, this author found out that while Chinese trucks could drive right till the border in their vehicles due to their superb roads, Indian soldiers sometimes end up trekking 10-15 km to reach their border posts.

It is precisely because I have read too much about Chinese infrastructure described by these rhetorical forms "fantastic" and "superb" that I decided to see where they are. Unless someone wants to see where those roads are - they are not going to interest anyone.

If I post more I will only repeat what i have said earlier. China's "fantastic roads" are all along river valleys. Moving even 5 km to the side requires the same physical climbing work that our soldiers do. These articles give the impression that there are 4000 km of "fantastic roads" running next to the border. That is not true. Those roads appear only at a handful of points in 4000 km.

The "finger area" of Sikkim that the lady mentioned has also been discussed earlier in this thread.

My purpose was never to look at generalities which are well known and "high level" stuff - but specifics. Still the paper is useful -because it speaks the language that I want to see - although not in the detail that I would like.

Happy to note that author has given at least lip service to some of the things we should know:

The key impediments envisaged
by the PLa in the Tar include the following:

l Long distance from rail heads to important communication centres
(currently being addressed) and periodic disruption due to climatic
conditions lead to delay in induction.

l Terrain and weather restrict logistics operations from March to
november. Build-up to the rail head, however, is possible throughout
the year.

l need for extensive winter stocking; move of logistics resources at the
place of application and sustenance of forces during the road closure
period necessitate winter stocking for the road closure period.

l reduced airlift capability and long axes of maintenance and disruption due
to high altitude conditions.

l adverse effects of high altitude on men and material; need for
acclimatisation, especially in the case of air induction.

l application of rrFs along India’s borders would also require ground
logistics support like other mountain formations, although these can be
air-maintained for short directions.

l Logistics induction is vulnerable to the IaF.

l The PLa’s modern joint logistics system is still untested in war-like
scenarios.

The author mentions that the Chinese are stocking up ammunition for ready use during war. Surely the places where these are stocked are being followed by Indian intel - but assuming that is classified - surely a dedicated set of people using Google earth and look at likely areas of Chinese activity and mark them to serve as targets for Indian forces. I did complain earlier that BRFites are more interested in details watching of Indian military sites on Google earth. I want to do something different and hope others will join me.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 23 Jan 2017 10:30

shiv wrote:In addition to the point near Bum La which has a great road from Tibet leading up to the border I found one more - image below. This is at the Eastern tip of India - eastern tip of Arunachal in fact where a river valley runs into India. There is an excellent Chinese road (S 201) that runs right up to the border - and ends about 2 km from the border.

On the plus side for China - it is a well maintained road (as per Panoramio images and Google Earth). Heavy vehicles can definitely be brought down the road right up to the border on such a road

On the negative side, the road is along a river valley and more than 200 km long where it joins a main East west highway. There is very little lateral space for spread of any forces that are brought in and the last few km of road can be dominated by Indian artillery from the heights

Yes, In my view, across the entire border in Arunachal, only Walong (the S201 road) and Bum La/Tawang, offer the Chinese opportunity to bring a sizable force close to the border. In Walong, as you mention, the terrain greatly favors the defender, while in Tawang, any invading force runs into the teeth of 4th Corps defences.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Jan 2017 10:41

shiv wrote:<SNIP>

Shiv, you've a mail.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Jan 2017 12:33

The solution to the Chinese threat in the north is massive Indian strike capability. An Air-Land battleplan with the IN ready to interdict and capture/destroy any Chinese maritime activity in the IOR is needed. The IN should also,apart from LRMP missile strike capability, possess a large force of small,cheap missile craft which can be used (along with subs) to block the ingress points into the IOR and hem in the PN in the Arabian Sea.

However,if we have a mil face-off in the Himalayas,destruction of the Chinese road-rail infrastructure is an absolute,along with massive air/missile strikes against their air bases,etc,In this,there can be no half-measures in countering the Chinese.As the Viets did,decades ago,the only lesson the Chinese learn is when they get the noses bloodied and their backside shafted.Building our infrastructure is v.difficult.Therefore we also need airlift capability,both helos and aircraft for strike forces/spl. forces who can hit hard and deep into Tibet. Apart from destroying road and rail networks,the
Karakorum Highway must also be destroyed as much as poss.preventing the Chinese from moving troops into POK and resupplying Pak by road.The Chinese "Silk Route" must be smashed.

This calls for a huge mil buildup,esp for the IAF,which already needs about "200 med Rafale sized fighters" as the outgoing COAS said. The cheapest and easiest solution to this is to acquire more MIG-29UGs/35s at around $40-50M a piece.It will reduce infrastructure,training and logistic costs as we already operate the type. More heavy-lift hekos are needed.More Chinooks and at least 6-8 new MI-26s (we can exchange our old ones for new),as these massive helos have the equiv of an AN-12 cargo hold and have been known to recover downed Chinooks in the Afghan War.C-130s are also the ideal aircraft to operate from the small high-alt airstrips and which can perhaps even land on carefully chosen strips in Tibet .For supporting such clandestine ops,we need to arm the Tibetan diaspora,esp induct more spl forces groups and augment the Indo-Tibetan border force substantially. Like '71 where we assisted and trained the Mukti Bahini,so too must we prepare for the woirst case scenario and a war with China in the Himalayas.

One easy way to put China on hold is to slap huge trade tariffs just as Trump has suggested ,35% for Mexico and 45% for China. In fact all Chinese goods affecting our SMEs should be banned or carry a 200% duty.No fireworks,handicrafts,images of Indian deities,toxic toys,etc. Definitely NO Chinese electronic goods which can provide the Chines with a back-door entry into the Indian cyberspace. As China has just slapped visas for Indians wishing to to go Hong Kong,so should we also staple visas for ALL Chinamen and accelerate relations with Taiwan and those with Vietnam even further.

However,this calls for real "balls" to be displayd by the current regime and the cowardly ranks of babudom in N. and S. Block. The stink of fear of China can be smelt in the corridors of power in the capital.Mr.Modi has the onerous task of cleansing the defeatist stables in Delhi and instilling a new confidence in the establishment that we can face China mano-a-mano and make it blink.

We

Akshay D · Post by **Akshay D** » 23 Jan 2017 18:10

shiv wrote:- surely a dedicated set of people using Google earth and look at likely areas of Chinese activity and mark them to serve as targets for Indian forces. I did complain earlier that BRFites are more interested in details watching of Indian military sites on Google earth. I want to do something different and hope others will join me.

Hi Shiv, I will try and take you up on this. I have and actually still do spend a lot of time looking up the border areas on Google / Bing maps. A lot of times it helps to cross check the same area in bing ( and vice versa) since it might have a better angle, contrast, newer imagery etc.

So to start with, I thought of revisiting the North Sikkim - Finger area. This part of the border has seen a HUGE change over the past 4-6 years. From almost no infrastructure on the Indian side .. we have come a very long way. Let's just say we seem to be doing pretty OK here.

But since you wanted somebody to look on the chinese side, here goes..

General overview of towns / PLA areas with roads leading up to the border. (Orange roads = Metalled with lane markers visible in sat or panoramio images. Green roads are compacted earth / truckable roads)

PLA fortified area 1 (marked on overview image). Roads leading up the hills ending at a possible observation post and multiple trenches

PLA fortified area 2. Possible observation post and trench on a hill overlooking the city.

PLA fortified area 3 - on the rear of a hill with road leading up to trenches overlooking the city.

There exists a proper metalled road from Gamba City (Fortified area 2) to Xigaze (166 km) and from Area 3 to Xigaze (170 km). Xigaze is the railhead here which connects to Lhasa (3 hours) which itself is the end point of the Qinghai - Tibet Railway.

This entire area is criss-crossed by plenty of other smaller roads etc. I have only focused on the small part of the border and surely if I expand the scope of this more such sites will pop up.

Let me know if this is helpful. Not that it's anything great but this is a hobby anyway and I would love to contribute more.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Jan 2017 18:43

The only thing that I take seriously about the PLA against the IA is the possibility that they have perfected a long range atgm (20 plus km range)that they were working on circa 2012.

Being a truck based weapon it will not make much of a difference to most areas. But where Indian armour is deployed they would be able to do a lot of damage.

It is contingent on the missile being perfected and being in production. If it is not then it makes no difference.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2017 19:39

rohitvats wrote:
shiv wrote:<SNIP>
Shiv, you've a mail.

Gotit thx

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jan 2017 19:52

Akshay D wrote:

This entire area is criss-crossed by plenty of other smaller roads etc. I have only focused on the small part of the border and surely if I expand the scope of this more such sites will pop up.

Let me know if this is helpful. Not that it's anything great but this is a hobby anyway and I would love to contribute more.

Lovely thanks

Any work in this direction is useful. If you like doing it go right ahead and post as long as it is from the Chinese side - even condition of roads is useful.

On BRF there is great curiosity about our own stuff - our air bases, whether we can see Sukhois, or whether Arihant can be seen, where our AAM sites are etc. Only doc Gagan has done some great work wrt to Shitistan. But when it comes China no one looks. I bet that 90% of forum members will not be able to say where Chushul or Walong are and how close they are to Nathu La. And we are all content to read articles that tell us about China roads close to the border and how they will overwhelm us with force. Is no one interested in cross checking? It seems more fun to spot an Arihant or an Agni site and post it on the internet than looking at China. It is assumed that someone else is doing that. Well the Chinese are doing that for India - so why do we bother?

Any effort put into defining what China is up to would be original work by Indian military enthusiasts because there is precious little being done. There are crowds of China watchers on Google who have looked at anything worth looking at in Eastern China. But unless we look at China on the Indian border no one else is bothered.

Did you note that the image below had a helipad marked with a +. Chinese helipads are marked with +, Indian helipads have a H. the only exception I have seen is the meeting area near Nathu La where China has helipads for Indians to fly in for meetings I guess

Akshay D wrote:
PLA fortified area 1 (marked on overview image). Roads leading up the hills ending at a possible observation post and multiple trenches

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 23 Jan 2017 21:22

shiv wrote:
ranjan.rao wrote:what i find amazing is their audacity to come to an indian post and attempt to throw the stones of the post..do we do that?
I am sure we do that.

apart from sporadic news from about we undoing "development work" of our mithaas bhais I am yet to see anything like what they have been doing. Again my counter proposition is that they would lap that opportunity to showcase india as aggressor on the border to play victim card or "teach us a lesson" kinda threats..
would be happiest person to be proven wrong in this case

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 23 Jan 2017 21:24

shouldn't further discussions be continued on china watch thread or managing chinese thread...some of the points like the awesome work by shiv and others is something that will be useful in future and would be easy to locate

Akshay D · Post by **Akshay D** » 23 Jan 2017 21:34

shiv wrote: Any work in this direction is useful. If you like doing it go right ahead and post as long as it is from the Chinese side - even condition of roads is useful.

Done deal. I will get to all the major areas: Aksai Chin (DBO - Chushul - Demchok), disputed areas in HP and Uttarakhand, East sikkim - Chumbi valley, Arunachal Pradesh (Thag La and Bum La areas)

What you've said is true..there is very little material regarding Chinese border development on the internet. That is the reason I trawl the maps and other blogs (teambhp etc) to find out more for myself.

One of the probable reasons, I think, not many look at china is the fact that we all grow up knowing and being told that Pak is enemy no. 1. So the focus is almost automatically on Pak. The fact that we did lose the war and a lot of territory in '62 is deeply entrenched but nobody even knows about '67 and '87 incidents, which were in our favour.

shiv wrote: Chinese helipads are marked with +, Indian helipads have a H. the only exception I have seen is the meeting area near Nathu La where China has helipads for Indians to fly in for meetings I guess

Not always true. Here is what seems to be a PLA garrison ~ 5 km's north of bum la (AP). But something for me to keep in mind when I'm trying to locate such buildings / areas

.

Note the defensive preps done on the hill and on the ridgeline.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 Jan 2017 21:47

I think the main thing needed is for Chinese soldiers to be able to watch Hindi movies. OK, Malloostani movies because all the good ppl invariably get destroyed and the evil ones win in the beginning, middle and end. If you have ever been in a movie theater full of young Chinese people, they laugh and clap very loudly and happily when this happens. Habit from the Cultural Revolution: see your own parents put in those nice wooden collars, laugh and clap as loudly as u can.
BoobTubeOgraphic Aggression.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Jan 2017 21:59

I am shivering already!!!

PLAN 14th Type 52D DDG-117 Xining commissioned today. Producing them like dumplings!
https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 4630025216

PLARF DF21 convoy of possible 5 x 823TELs & drivers' training track under construction
https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 1922186240

The gentleman who owns this twitter account goes by the handle @rajfortyseven. His self description reads as, "Satellite Imagery Expert. Interested Chinese PLA & Pak Armed Forces. Anything else that comes along!"
https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 24 Jan 2017 02:25

Rakesh wrote:I am shivering already!!!

PLAN 14th Type 52D DDG-117 Xining commissioned today. Producing them like dumplings!
https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 4630025216

Wait till next year, when they launch their 055 type with 128 VLS. Shudder then!!!

chola · Post by **chola** » 24 Jan 2017 06:52

ShauryaT wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I am shivering already!!!

PLAN 14th Type 52D DDG-117 Xining commissioned today. Producing them like dumplings!
https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 4630025216
Wait till next year, when they launch their 055 type with 128 VLS. Shudder then!!!

Neither the 052Ds nor the 055s can be spared for the IOR because the PRC's master gameplan revolves around Taiwan and the US fleet guaranteeing Taiwanese freedom.

The 055 is pretty much run-of-the-mill in East Asia since Korean and Japanese have Aegis DDGs sporting 100 VLS launchers for years now and then you have all the USN Arleigh Burkes.

Shivering about the 055 is like you shivering about a man-eating polar bear in Alaska. It's silly because you'll never encounter one in India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jan 2017 06:58

Akshay D wrote:
Not always true. Here is what seems to be a PLA garrison ~ 5 km's north of bum la (AP). But something for me to keep in mind when I'm trying to locate such buildings / areas .

Note the defensive preps done on the hill and on the ridgeline.

No the two helipads marked H are just inside Chinese territory very close to Nathu La - the area is one of 3 meeting points for Indian and Chinese officials - so the "H" is most likely to guide Indian pilots who read "H" as the convention for a helipad. Elsewhere the Chinese use a "+"

But on the whole there are a lot many more helipads in Indian territory. This suggests a couple of things to me
1. The Chinese rely more on road transport and because they sit at levels about 3500-4000 meters helos cannot take off with a large load
2. Indian forward logistics are more helicopter dependent - but they can take of with larger loads at lower altitudes

Still - I see Indian helipads on remote mountain peaks while I am yet to spot similar Chinese heli- logistic facilities on remote peaks away from their river-valley highways

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jan 2017 09:02

I am no supporter of Chinese aggressive takeover of territories, but look at the map below. Whose father's land is it? And how do the owners propose to protect their territory if someone else claims it?