Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

[Liu]

india deployed much more troops along sino~india border than china,but so many indians are stll worried about the imagined 'invasion from china',while few chinese are worried about 'invasion from india'.

the case just proves that facing china, india is offensive tactically while defensive strategically

They aren't 'deployed there' . They are literally composed of hundreds of thousands of people FROM the areas near the border. There are 7 Gorkha regiments. Bihar Regiment, Punjab Regiment, Assam Regiment... and no, none of these were created in response to 1962. Almost all of them date back to the time of the Qianlong Emperor, or even the Kangxi Emperor, of the Qing Dynasty.

The Himalayas are steep. Maybe hard to cross, but the plains are a fairly short distance from the peaks, with Occupied Tibet on the other side. China simply cannot maintain such a large number of troops. You'd lose thousands every year to altitude sickness. Not to mention that you Hans wouldn't trust a single non Han in the CPC Central Committee. That's right, how many Tibetans or Turkestanis do you have in the CPC upper echelons ? Zero. You can't risk training and arming hundreds of thousands of Tibetans and Turkestanis, because you and I know what will happen. They'll shoot YOU, not us.

We don't need to fight China for Tibet, because Tibet belongs to Tibetans. We're quite happy to help *them* get Tibet back. You on the other hand, to fight us, you have to live among people who hate you and will kill you if you ever trained or armed them.

Of the 'National leaders' of China,there are usually several mogols,tibetan and uygur ones,as democrates.

for example,Dalai was once the deputy chief of China's congress.

at least,measured by the % of population ,the quantity is farely fair.

And ,there are many non~han soldiers/police too ,and the % is fair too according to the population .


after all, 90+% of chinese are Han.
most ethnic minorities are seriously hanized too.
（the most populous minor ethnic Manchus and Zhuang are completely hanized）

maybe only 1% of chinese（mainly uyguers and tibetans）still keep obvious non~han ethnic characteristics.

how about the uygur girl？ she is a policeweman,i like her.

http://ww1.sinaimg.cn/mw600/69e6beddgy1 ... 0b70tc.jpg

http://ww1.sinaimg.cn/mw600/69e6beddgy1 ... 0axaal.jpg

here is a Tajics boy,who are a PLA soldier.
http://imgwap.xilu.com/images/2014/0527 ... d10908.jpg

[Suraj]

So you need at least 10% non-Han examples.

Name one Tibetan or Uighur member of the CPC Central Committee, or PLA upper leadership. Or PLAN. Or PLAAF. Cute traffic policewomen don't count.

Here are the facts: there's never been a non-Han member of the Politburo Standing Committee , ever. There have only ever been 3 non-Han members of the Politburo since 1949. Among minorities, only Mongolians, Hui and Manchu get senior positions. No Tibetan or Uighur can over hope to be in charge of a PLA regiment. Most Tibetans and Uighur won't even be permitted to train and hold weapons in PLA because they will go shoot their Han colleagues instead of Indian soldiers.

[nam]

india deployed much more troops along sino~india border than china,but so many indians are stll worried about the imagined 'invasion from china',while few chinese are worried about 'invasion from india'.


the case just proves that facing china, india is offensive tactically while defensive strategically

I like this. Chinese tell us that we are sh** poor country, hence cannot stand against the might of PLA and at the same time "India maintains more troops than PLA in tibet". Irony just said hello.

As you described, PLA can deploy quickly, I am sure India with C17,IL76,An32,C130,Dorinier,MI17,Mi17v,ALH can deploy couple of battalions every night... at any point in Tibet.No?

Because the "Liberation Army" cannot afford to deploy it's bulk of the forces from the glamorous frontline against US, Japan & Taiwan to face "third world force", it does the next best thing.

It's calls up it's rent boy and bribes them with CPEC. In return the Pakis can deploy their HA forces to outflank Indian forces in Aksai Chin. Pakis have more HA experienced men and they are cheap as chips.

[manju]

But the thing is clan of brf is small, especially when mods dont approve new requests and it will remain small. Few people will be interested in the level of details you are talking, forget about the effort you're putting into it. For a narrative to change, it has to go not JUST to the level of elites but also to the level of masses.

I understand your concerns but I ask for patience. I think ramana is one person (among a few others) who will know how some things eventually explode into pubic consciousness after initial discussions on boards such as this. I see it as my duty to communicate what I feel must be said to the few who will see it. Typically any idea if good will get picked up and suddenly similar or better stuff will start appearing on other sites, blogs and finally the mainstream media. But it takes time. I would say 5 years.

Well said Shiv.. There is a first time for everything. In future if we have an informed public (about the geography and history and why 1962 loss happened) it could be becuase the conversation started on brf!!

[Liu]

So you need at least 10% non-Han examples.

Name one Tibetan or Uighur member of the CPC Central Committee, or PLA upper leadership. Or PLAN. Or PLAAF. Cute traffic policewomen don't count.

Here are the facts: there's never been a non-Han member of the Politburo Standing Committee , ever. There have only ever been 3 non-Han members of the Politburo since 1949. Among minorities, only Mongolians, Hui and Manchu get senior positions. No Tibetan or Uighur can over hope to be in charge of a PLA regiment. Most Tibetans and Uighur won't even be permitted to train and hold weapons in PLA because they will go shoot their Han colleagues instead of Indian soldiers.

uygur+tibet has only less than of 1% of chinese population.

well there always are about 20 members（only 7-9 standing members） of politburo.

even 1/20 means 5%,which is much larger than 1%（uygur+tibetan）.

besides,average eucation of uygurs and tibetan is much poorer than the nationwide average one,and many of them even can not speak mandarin（in fact,chinese government usually privide free 9~year free education,but many uygur/tibetan parent would rather send their children to mosques/temples than schools）.

can non~english~speaking ones have much chance to get highrank position in USA ?
if not, why just blame china?

[Liu]

So you need at least 10% non-Han examples.

Name one Tibetan or Uighur member of the CPC Central Committee, or PLA upper leadership. Or PLAN. Or PLAAF. Cute traffic policewomen don't count.

Here are the facts: there's never been a non-Han member of the Politburo Standing Committee , ever. There have only ever been 3 non-Han members of the Politburo since 1949. Among minorities, only Mongolians, Hui and Manchu get senior positions. No Tibetan or Uighur can over hope to be in charge of a PLA regiment. Most Tibetans and Uighur won't even be permitted to train and hold weapons in PLA because they will go shoot their Han colleagues instead of Indian soldiers.

uygur+tibet has only less than of 1% of chinese population.

well there always are about 20 members（only 7-9 standing members） of politburo.

even 1/20 means 5%,which is much larger than 1%（uygur+tibetan）.

besides,average eucation of uygurs and tibetan is much poorer than the nationwide average one,and many of them even can not speak mandarin（in fact,chinese government usually privide free 9~year free education,but many uygur/tibetan parent would rather send their children to mosques/temples than schools）.

can non~english~speaking ones have much chance to get highrank position in USA ?
if not, why just blame china?

[Liu]

BTW
there is one for minor ethnics in china, like the 'reserved postion' for low castes in india .

some good positions are legally kept specially for minor ethnics.


for example.

if some stateowned enterprise wants to set up plants in South Xinjiang, one position of the board has to be reserved for Uygurs .

because Uygurs usually spend much more time reading the Koran than science/tech/management,few Uygurs are in fact qualified.

so,on the most occasions, the uygurs member of the board become the well.paid fat cat, who can do nothing but drink coffee in office.

[shiv]

india deployed much more troops along sino~india border than china,but so many indians are stll worried about the imagined 'invasion from china',while few chinese are worried about 'invasion from india'.


the case just proves that facing china, india is offensive tactically while defensive strategically

Those Indians who believe what you say will feel relieved. The biggest difference between the Chinese and the Indians that I see is that the Chinese are proud of what is done in China while Indians constantly feel that other Indians are not good enough. No Indian can claim success without another Indian saying that he is bluffing or cheating. On the other hand I never see Chinese question any boast or claim made by a Chinese about developments or achievements. If a Chinese says FC-1 is great and LCA is useless - you will find people on this forum who will make arguments to agree with that assessment.

This plays out in several interesting ways.

As regards the border situation - it is my assessment that a majority of Indians think China is going to attack and India can lose the war. Chinese pride and boasting push exactly the fear and panic button among Indians and there is a constant demand that we prepare for defeat, or prepare to defeat China. So there is constant criticism of the political leadership in India telling them that they are not doing enough about the Chinese threat. This allows India the political and financial leeway to make certain preparations despite the poverty that you are so eager to talk about. Maybe poor people suffer less than wealthy people when they are nuked?

The Chinese leadership are acutely aware of the fact that other national leaders are humans and have their desires and fears. I see similar awareness of China among some Indian strategists and ex military thinkers but Indian politicians who become leaders generally have no time to think about how a Chinese leader (or any other leader) balances his pressures. If they know - they don't show it. But Chinese leaders constantly seem to assess the other leader's desires and weaknesses and send out signals to "play" with that leader. Mao and Chou en Lai understood Nehru very well and played games with him. Even today the Chinese play little games to irritate and muddle relationships and try and make a public show that China is too big to be messed with and that other countries to know their place inferior to China. I don't know how much this is for internal Chinese consumption. This can be seen by the Indian public and it adds to their anxieties of China. But it also allows Indian governments to ensure that they can take almost any offensive or defensive military preparation against China with no political opposition. In fact Pakistan has done a better job in appearing harmless to India than China. Brash Chinese behaviour allows India to support Tibetans in their quest for self determination and the Chinese after boasting and barking about their greatness still find that they have an "internal security" problem in Tibet.

Basically no one trusts China. The Chinese themselves don't know how to handle this mistrust. Their own behaviour ranges from great pride that others don't trust them - feeling that everyone is jealous and afraid of China and that is something that the Chinese should be proud and happy about. This is the reaction of a people who have had a huge inferiority complex. But arrogant behaviour earns China friends like North Korea and Pakistan but a whole lot of other powerful adversaries. I can see that Chinese and planes and ship just have to move 50 km from the Chinese coast to find how many enemies there are. Same way you are speaking of large numbers of Indian soldiers at the border. If China is so powerful why worry about all these? You can defeat them all no? But the Chinese say they don't want war. And yet they are constantly boasting about their war preparedness. Why are you surprised that there are many hostile forces arrayed against China? Chinese national behaviour alternates between feelings of paranoia, persecution and the opposite feelings of grandeur. Grandeur is required to assuage the persecution, and others who see Chinese preparations start militarizing - leading to more Chinese paranoia and persecution complex.

[Liu]

india deployed much more troops along sino~india border than china,but so many indians are stll worried about the imagined 'invasion from china',while few chinese are worried about 'invasion from india'.


the case just proves that facing china, india is offensive tactically while defensive strategically

Those Indians who believe what you say will feel relieved. The biggest difference between the Chinese and the Indians that I see is that the Chinese are proud of what is done in China while Indians constantly feel that other Indians are not good enough. No Indian can claim success without another Indian saying that he is bluffing or cheating. On the other hand I never see Chinese question any boast or claim made by a Chinese about developments or achievements. If a Chinese says FC-1 is great and LCA is useless - you will find people on this forum who will make arguments to agree with that assessment.

This plays out in several interesting ways.

As regards the border situation - it is my assessment that a majority of Indians think China is going to attack and India can lose the war. Chinese pride and boasting push exactly the fear and panic button among Indians and there is a constant demand that we prepare for defeat, or prepare to defeat China. So there is constant criticism of the political leadership in India telling them that they are not doing enough about the Chinese threat. This allows India the political and financial leeway to make certain preparations despite the poverty that you are so eager to talk about. Maybe poor people suffer less than wealthy people when they are nuked?

The Chinese leadership are acutely aware of the fact that other national leaders are humans and have their desires and fears. I see similar awareness of China among some Indian strategists and ex military thinkers but Indian politicians who become leaders generally have no time to think about how a Chinese leader (or any other leader) balances his pressures. If they know - they don't show it. But Chinese leaders constantly seem to assess the other leader's desires and weaknesses and send out signals to "play" with that leader. Mao and Chou en Lai understood Nehru very well and played games with him. Even today the Chinese play little games to irritate and muddle relationships and try and make a public show that China is too big to be messed with and that other countries to know their place inferior to China. I don't know how much this is for internal Chinese consumption. This can be seen by the Indian public and it adds to their anxieties of China. But it also allows Indian governments to ensure that they can take almost any offensive or defensive military preparation against China with no political opposition. In fact Pakistan has done a better job in appearing harmless to India than China. Brash Chinese behaviour allows India to support Tibetans in their quest for self determination and the Chinese after boasting and barking about their greatness still find that they have an "internal security" problem in Tibet.

Basically no one trusts China. The Chinese themselves don't know how to handle this mistrust. Their own behaviour ranges from great pride that others don't trust them - feeling that everyone is jealous and afraid of China and that is something that the Chinese should be proud and happy about. This is the reaction of a people who have had a huge inferiority complex. But arrogant behaviour earns China friends like North Korea and Pakistan but a whole lot of other powerful adversaries. I can see that Chinese and planes and ship just have to move 50 km from the Chinese coast to find how many enemies there are. Same way you are speaking of large numbers of Indian soldiers at the border. If China is so powerful why worry about all these? You can defeat them all no? But the Chinese say they don't want war. And yet they are constantly boasting about their war preparedness. Why are you surprised that there are many hostile forces arrayed against China? Chinese national behaviour alternates between feelings of paranoia, persecution and the opposite feelings of grandeur. Grandeur is required to assuage the persecution, and others who see Chinese preparations start militarizing - leading to more Chinese paranoia and persecution complex.

a chinese saying,

' If someone can avoid any jealousy,He must be a mediocrity'(不遭人忌是庸才)'

Of countries/civilizations ,china has never been a mediocrity since it was born 4000+ years ago.

we are used to be jealous of or even hated by mediocrities.

[ParGha]

No Tibetan or Uighur can over hope to be in charge of a PLA regiment. Most Tibetans and Uighur won't even be permitted to train and hold weapons in PLA because they will go shoot their Han colleagues instead of Indian soldiers.

At the Battle of Chushul, all the assault units were 100% Uighurs/Mughals from PAP border-guards; the PLA was mainly providing mortar, HMG and radio-support. If you read the regimental history of the Jat Regiment, the NCOs/JCOs always call this battle "dharam-yuddh" (a war for faith) and all other battles "Cheen-yuddh" (the Chinese War).

[TKiran]

The problem with Chinese is that, most of the Indians when they visit Shanghai or Beijing, Chinese want Indians to get awed. But when we don't get awed, they are surprised.

It has been my personal experience that they don't know anything about how rapidly India is developing, they just can't believe when I showed pictures, they would usually ask, "is it US or Europe you are holidaying?". When I say that it's a III tier city in Andhra in the southern part of India, they just can't believe it. The visuals I show of my family shopping or dining or even traveling on High ways in some remote corner of India, it's just unbelievable for them.

None of them know that we are almost equal to them economy wise. They will start to argue with me that Chinese economy is 4.12 times that of India, against my claim of China economy is only 3.9 times of India.

I don't even know why I should feel jealous about China. May be I am mediocre with a superiority complex, I still don't know. Does anybody else have such an experience?

Or there could be fundamental difference between China and India thinking, Indians are wired to overcome jealousy (the sixth of the arishadvargas of Kaama, Krodha, Lobha, Moha, Mada, Matsara(jealousy)).

[shiv]

a chinese saying,

' If someone can avoid any jealousy,He must be a mediocrity'(不遭人忌是庸才)'

Of countries/civilizations ,china has never been a mediocrity since it was born 4000+ years ago.

we are used to be jealous of or even hated by mediocrities.

What I find funny is the paranoia in this statement - the idea that everyone else is jealous or hate the Chinese and that paranoia is simply supported by an absolutely stupid Chinese comment that a person who feels no jealousy is mediocre. He may be feeling superior but the Chinese won't like it and need to call him mediocre to feel better about themselves. Usually mentally ill people with very poor self esteem need to think this way to cope.

The person who does not feel jealous does not care what the Chinese are thinking. But it is interesting that Chinese culture (or what is left of it) advocates jealousy and thinks jealousy is good. That is a data point that can be used in different ways. In fact I can imagine great anger and frustration that the other guy is not jealous and then the "grapes are sour" excuse "He is mediocre. He hates me and I am great". Exactly as I said Paranoia, persecution and delusions of grandeur.

[Liu]

The problem with Chinese is that, most of the Indians when they visit Shanghai or Beijing, Chinese want Indians to get awed. But when we don't get awed, they are surprised.

It has been my personal experience that they don't know anything about how rapidly India is developing, they just can't believe when I showed pictures, they would usually ask, "is it US or Europe you are holidaying?". When I say that it's a III tier city in Andhra in the southern part of India, they just can't believe it. The visuals I show of my family shopping or dining or even traveling on High ways in some remote corner of India, it's just unbelievable for them.

None of them know that we are almost equal to them economy wise. They will start to argue with me that Chinese economy is 4.12 times that of India, against my claim of China economy is only 3.9 times of India.

I don't even know why I should feel jealous about China. May be I am mediocre with a superiority complex, I still don't know. Does anybody else have such an experience?

does the gap between 3.9 and 4.12 really matter so much?

guy, you really want to encounrage you fellow indians?

your words just seem to depreciate india in a special way,instead of appreciate it really.

what on hell you want ?

[shiv]

I don't even know why I should feel jealous about China. May be I am mediocre with a superiority complex, I still don't know. Does anybody else have such an experience?

It's not about you. It's about the way Chinese are supposed to think to feel better about themselves. I can imagine that if you force people to do some things - like for example if you force them out of villages and re-house them in concrete and glass cities - you first tell them that they are mediocre if they do not feel jealous of the West that is "developed" and lives in concrete and glass cities - so in order not to be mediocre they must put up with this shit of being uprooted from their homes and land.

After they are moved into a new area they must then be happy because everyone else is now jealous. They have caught up with the West and are overtaking them and anyone who is not jealous is mediocre.

It sounds like a cheap Ponzi scheme and it is amazing how entire nations can be gullible enough to swallow this crap.

[shiv]

There are certain things that have been done in China over the last 40-50 years which have all been declared "good". Nothing is bad. The direction China has taken is good. Everything that happens is good. Anyone who disagrees is jealous and mediocre. There are some negative effects of being so good - maybe pollution, maybe lack of some freedoms etc. But only mediocre people object to these irritants because everything in China is good.

This is an interesting way to run a nation.

[TKiran]

does the gap between 3.9 and 4.12 really matter so much?

guy, you really want to encounrage you fellow indians?

your words just seem to depreciate india in a special way,instead of appreciate it really.

what on hell you want ?

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. It doesn't matter, it's very insignificant.

It also means that the Chinese are are jealous and they hate the idea that, a democratic India cannot develop so rapidly. They hate Indians because Indians are developing as rapidly as the Chinese., But because the party has assured them that India is a minnow through the propaganda, I would give them a benefit of doubt. They are still honest and awed at the same living standards in India as that of their existence in Shanghai or any other metro.

So your Chinese proverb is correct, (only problem is that Indians have a different way of thinking, they don't agree with your Chinese proverb)

[vina]

The problem with Chinese is that, most of the Indians when they visit Shanghai or Beijing, Chinese want Indians to get awed. But when we don't get awed, they are surprised.

The Chinese and (and if I can add other East and S. E Asians) are very hierarchical, with the Whites as their acknowledged "Superiors" , the "Japanese" as their unacknowledged superiors and hate object and the Chinese . It is very skin tone based and also "notion of development" (by this I mean strictly material development) based and with a huge sense of lack of self worth and inferiority.

They see India as "brown" and "underdeveloped" compared to the Whites and to Japan and the Asian Miracle economies (SoKo, Taiwan, HK , Singapore etc) and now with the PR Chinese, what just about graduating into the $5000 per capita club, think they have "arrived" and their deep sense of inferiority wish to be acknowledged as something wonderful and crave adulation from whom they consider "below" them in whatever their mental hierarchy is.

Trouble is , when they get at best amused condescension from Indians and India and we don't seem to be "awed" , they don't know how to handle it, and that leads to all sorts of mental pathologies. But that indeed is the way of India. We simply don't care too much or are in awe of very regimented and authoritarian societies. They simply go hay wire when they meet Indians outside and within India and we don't conform to what they think of us as "backward" and "undeveloped" etc, especially when they can see that the Indians stand toe to toe against anyone from anywhere in most top univs anywhere , they see a competent business, military , scientific and governance structures (for e.g., stuff like Mangalyaan and Chandrayaan would have been serious blows to their ego and self worth, which is based on schlong measurement contests) ..

Frankly, if the Chinese, had something more to talk and show about rather than that idiotic "material" progress they have made (which has not been made on innovation mind you , but just factor inputs and moving people from farm to factories) and that sky scraper zoo in Shanghai, Beijing and other cities, it doesnt impress us! Somehow this entire PR Chinese thing seems very artificial and flaky. Sort of like that video shot of the Beijing olypmics with quick response teams going around in Segways and posing as if shooting. All of us know how ridiculous that is and you can't do any tactical shooting and shooting while driving a Segway. The Chinese story seems a lot like that. The Chinese with their idiocies have pissed off EVERY one of their neighbours (except the PakWhore, which given a chance will tell Chinese what they TRULY think of it, that too shall happen.. that is a relationship based on anti India hate, rather than anything positive) .It really takes some doing. It is going to get tougher for China. Not easier. WHEN growth in China stagnates and falls below 5% (not IF mind you, but WHEN, as it inevitably must, remember, I was the one who bet with the Chinese drones in this forum that India will outgrow China within the next 5 years and I won !) and India starts accelerating (as it will when UP and Bihar start moving from the comatose state they are in), the China - India "gap" in GDP terms will narrow VERY quickly.

After all much of the GDP gap is due to currency difference. When India gets it's act together (even the BRICS model from Goldman had it), a large part of the "Catch up" (just as it has been for China), will be due to currency appreciation. The Chinese produce HUGE amounts of very low value added stuff very inefficiently in terms of capital efficiency. The banking system there is a massive black hole that can collapse anytime . They went through an engineered stock boom and bust that ended miserably.

Yeah, the Chinese probably don't realise that the "easy" growth is behind them now. It will be very hard work from now and they will hit against natural limits which only productivity can break through. Those wont come easily without innovation, which unfortunately the Chinese economy is singularly not set up to do structurally. Innovation still comes from the US and to the lesser extent Europe and Japan.

That said, the PR Chinese I knew in America were all well grounded folks who had none of this nonsense. Maybe it was the people I knew and a self selected lot who were different, but they didn't conform to this kind of deluded idiocy we see from the Chinese from the mainland all over the world. In fact, the Hong Kong folks I knew made it a point to say very clearly that they were from Hong Kong and the Singaporean Chinese didn't want to have anything at all to do with the PR Chinese, and caricatured them as uncouth country brutes. I used to think that was rather unkind because I did know a lot of very nice Chinese folks , but if the representative sample of the mainland Chinese is what we see of the "party propaganda" set we see, I can see it is rather well founded. I should add that the majority of ABC (American Born Chinese) I knew were kids of people who moved from Taiwan or HK. I think the Cultural Revolution and the RED China experience has basically destroyed a lot of good of the Chinese people (imagine growing up ALL alone. No siblings, no aunts and uncles.. no one.. and this in a very family oriented culture that historically was organised on extended clans), has created a very "mentally different /diseased" kind of person.

[ParGha]

It sounds like a cheap Ponzi scheme and it is amazing how entire nations can be gullible enough to swallow this crap.

You can fool people and manipulate them from Beijing, but you can't fool Mother Nature.

By 2040 north-west Indian sub-continent is expected to lose 50% of its rainfall (https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... es-by-2040), with Pakistan hit the hardest with massive crop-failures and population movements.

Where will all those people go?

India? India is already densely populated, expected to have massive water problems, and armed and ready to cut them down if they force the issue. Afghanistan or Iran? Same water shortage and violence. It leaves either the Arabian Sea to the south or the Chinese colonies to the north.

CPEC, OBOR and highland clearances/consolidation in Mughalistan and Tibet is Mother Nature's way of taking care of allah-ki-bandey. The PLA is already emptying the lands, fencing in the herds and corralling up the native peoples into apartments. The Pakistanis are building highways and railways to the north. Nature hates vacuum. She will lead these lost sheep (or is it goats?) back into their ancestral lands of Babur and Timur. Balance will be restored.

[ranjan.rao]

a chinese saying,

' If someone can avoid any jealousy,He must be a mediocrity'(不遭人忌是庸才)'

Of countries/civilizations ,china has never been a mediocrity since it was born 4000+ years ago.

we are used to be jealous of or even hated by mediocrities.

If you hadnt put chinese characters in ur statement I would have come to conclusion you are a Paki troll. Now you are a paki influenced chinese troll

[shiv]

Shiv, when you're looking at the Sikkim sector, do look at the road network into the Chumbi Valley. You'll notice that the Indo-Tibet border along the whole north-south alignment of Chumbi Valley runs along a ridge-line. And there are many roads/tracks which go from the valley floor towards the ridge line from Tibetan side. We've corresponding access roads/tracks from our side. Theoretically, Chinese can launch attacks along multiple locations along this border on east-west axis. But it also means that Indians can move east and completely isolate PLA troops in Chumbi Valley.

Aha. Looks like I have already done that and marked PLA positions. But I did not know that it was called Chumbi valley. Looks like we hold the heights here and the Chinese have to crawl up those paths to the ridgeline.

I have studiously avoided marling any Indian road or position - let someone else do that - i won't spend my time pointing out Indian positions. But I deliberately took this screengrab of an Indian border camp in the permafrost at 4400 meters overlooking Tibet. The blue zigzag access road can be seen But I post this photo in the context of people haggling about helicopters for the IA. If a border guard is injured or falls to altitude sickness - it is only the Helo service that can save him. People need to look at the types of positions that need support by air before advocating an endless delay

[Suraj]

No Tibetan or Uighur can over hope to be in charge of a PLA regiment. Most Tibetans and Uighur won't even be permitted to train and hold weapons in PLA because they will go shoot their Han colleagues instead of Indian soldiers.

At the Battle of Chushul, all the assault units were 100% Uighurs/Mughals from PAP border-guards; the PLA was mainly providing mortar, HMG and radio-support. If you read the regimental history of the Jat Regiment, the NCOs/JCOs always call this battle "dharam-yuddh" (a war for faith) and all other battles "Cheen-yuddh" (the Chinese War).

Yes, border guards. And what about upper levels ? And do those still exist though ? In 1962 everyone could be inspired by the creation of the Chinese state (except the Tibetans of course). In 2017, just how much faith does the PLA have running battalions or regiments manned by Uighur or ethnic Tibetan, or better yet, have one command a Han majority regiment ? More importantly, how much faith do they have running such an entity *within* those regions , i.e. an Uighur regiment in Xinjiang or a Tibetan corps in Lhasa ? I doubt they have enough faith not to be shot at by their own in such a situation...

[Suraj]

uygur+tibet has only less than of 1% of chinese population.

well there always are about 20 members（only 7-9 standing members） of politburo.

even 1/20 means 5%,which is much larger than 1%（uygur+tibetan）.

besides,average eucation of uygurs and tibetan is much poorer than the nationwide average one,and many of them even can not speak mandarin（in fact,chinese government usually privide free 9~year free education,but many uygur/tibetan parent would rather send their children to mosques/temples than schools）.

can non~english~speaking ones have much chance to get highrank position in USA ?
if not, why just blame china?

Your proportionate representation formula does not work. Only THREE Politburo members since 1949 have been non-Han, none of them either Uighur or Tibetan, typically only Hui or Mongol. Non-Han combined represent 10% of your population. You're way way behind your own formula.

If they're uneducated, it means you've failed to educate them and have kept them down. That's right - the Han rule by keeping the minorities uneducated , disarmed and under their thumb. What's more, you don't *trust* them. No way would China ever put a Tibetan in charge of a PLA regiment, manned by Tibetans. You don't trust them not to turn around and shoot you , or desert over to the Indian side in war.

[nam]

a chinese saying,

' If someone can avoid any jealousy,He must be a mediocrity'(不遭人忌是庸才)'

Of countries/civilizations ,china has never been a mediocrity since it was born 4000+ years ago.

we are used to be jealous of or even hated by mediocrities.

Now I get why Chinese and Pakis are pals. They are mirror image of each other !

The Pakis also think the world is out to get them.

The difference, one is rich!

We need more Chinese people on this board. This is fascinating.

[Suraj]

Oh we have had many Chinese posters here. Most of them are on the banned list now. Almost all of them follow the same template. They come here, post boastful Chinese achievements hoping to get praise and adulation from the brown folks they considered inferior. They get 'meh' in response, together with several critical questions about the costs of what they accomplished. They get outraged and lose their marbles and mock something or the other about India using the same template as their TSP bhais. Next step - ban list.

But I can agree with China lacking mediocrity in accomplishment. It always does everything to the max. Their history has epochs of approximately 150-250 years. In between, they have the most nightmarish tumults in history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll
Pop quiz: what was the most devastating war in history ? Yes, WW2. And the second ? WW1 ? Nope. It's #8 . Between spots 2-7, five of six are Chinese wars. And after WW1, #9 and #10 are also Chinese.

The end of every major Chinese dynasty resulted in unspeakable numbers of deaths from the ensuing rebellion. End of Qing ? About 40 million dead. End of Ming ? 25M dead. End of Song ? 35M dead. End of Han ? Another 35M dead. No wonder they're terrified of the music stopping. We in India are scarred by the British era famines etc. Wonder what goes through Chinese heads considering that the end of every past dynasty cost them 5-10% of their population in ensuing warfare ? They have reliably repeated this template for the past 4-5 dynasties spread over 1000+ years.

No other country ever managed to reliably kill off so many of their people with such predictable periodicity .

[shiv]

Oh we have had many Chinese posters here. Most of them are on the banned list now. Almost all of them follow the same template. They come here, post boastful Chinese achievements hoping to get praise and adulation from the brown folks they considered inferior. They get 'meh' in response, together with several critical questions about the costs of what they accomplished. They get outraged and lose their marbles and mock something or the other about India using the same template as their TSP bhais. Next step - ban list.

As a rule they mock India.The mocking seems a necessary part of showing their superiority. Anger is expected as a reaction. Anger is explained as jealousy. But this is the first time I have heard lack of jealousy being explained as mediocrity.

"I am great, you are mediocre and should be jealous. If you are not jealous you are mediocre"

The seriousness with which this circular argument is made really makes me wonder what sort of brain fart has led to this.

[chola]

a chinese saying,

' If someone can avoid any jealousy,He must be a mediocrity'(不遭人忌是庸才)'

Of countries/civilizations ,china has never been a mediocrity since it was born 4000+ years ago.

we are used to be jealous of or even hated by mediocrities.

If you hadnt put chinese characters in ur statement I would have come to conclusion you are a Paki troll. Now you are a paki influenced chinese troll

We are severely lacking in Paki trolls as well as chini ones.

Therefore, I do hand-to-hand combat at PDF with hundreds of chinis and tens of thousands of bakis. A lot of Beedees and Singhalese fvckers.

Yes, I admit it. I have fun on enemy ground. On TSP territory. But the Indian contingent doing shock and awe work there is huge.

[chola]

a chinese saying,

' If someone can avoid any jealousy,He must be a mediocrity'(不遭人忌是庸才)'

Of countries/civilizations ,china has never been a mediocrity since it was born 4000+ years ago.

we are used to be jealous of or even hated by mediocrities.

Now I get why Chinese and Pakis are pals. They are mirror image of each other !

The Pakis also think the world is out to get them.

The difference, one is rich!

We need more Chinese people on this board. This is fascinating.

You can find them by the hundreds in the baki site like yellow rats in a sea of "wheat-colored" cockroaches.

Here at BR, I am hoping we get the last two chinis (Liu and David) banned. I find it insulting that they are still trolling us with the same idiots I saw around here a decade ago.

[VKumar]

Like I told a Chinese businessman who said, out of the blue, that China and Pakistan are inseparable, my reply was BIRDS OF A FEATHER STICK TOGETHER. That shut him.

[Suraj]

chola, it is necessary that they be present here, for it gives posters here the chance to understand how to develop skills of rhetoric in response to them. Not everyone wades into enemy territory gleefully like you do. I'm aware you're a legend in TSP/Chini forums, but not everyone is you.

Rest assured that mediocrity will not be tolerated from Liu. He's expected to demonstrate the best standards of PRC trolling abilities. His skills are by no means unique. Any new PRC member demonstrating superior trolling abilities will mean a quick end to Liu's presence. Therefore, he's expected to perform at his best every time he's here.

[VKumar]

I'm waiting for Chinese to get prosperous and educated enough to desire democracy.

Hope it happens in my lifetime

[Liu]

That said, the PR Chinese I knew in America were all well grounded folks who had none of this nonsense. Maybe it was the people I knew and a self selected lot who were different, but they didn't conform to this kind of deluded idiocy we see from the Chinese from the mainland all over the world. In fact, the Hong Kong folks I knew made it a point to say very clearly that they were from Hong Kong and the Singaporean Chinese didn't want to have anything at all to do with the PR Chinese, and caricatured them as uncouth country brutes. I used to think that was rather unkind because I did know a lot of very nice Chinese folks , but if the representative sample of the mainland Chinese is what we see of the "party propaganda" set we see, I can see it is rather well founded. I should add that the majority of ABC (American Born Chinese) I knew were kids of people who moved from Taiwan or HK. I think the Cultural Revolution and the RED China experience has basically destroyed a lot of good of the Chinese people (imagine growing up ALL alone. No siblings, no aunts and uncles.. no one.. and this in a very family oriented culture that historically was organised on extended clans), has created a very "mentally different /diseased" kind of person.

well,indeed some non~mainland chinese (such as ABC,Taiwanese,hongkongese and singaporeans) dislke PR china and hate CCP and its regime much.

here are the explainations.


1. outdated impressions.
generally speaking, the earlier oversea chinese left mainland china, the more they dislike communist party and its regime.

as a whole,those who left mainland china before 2000 usually are pro~western~democracy opposition to CCP regime,because they have been impressed deeply on the poverty&backward of china and huge sino~west economy&tech gap when they left china.

instead,those who left china after 2000 are usually against any radical change of the regime, because they are confident that china is on the right way to catch up with west civilization.

2.depression or frustration when the hare finds the tortoise had caught up and is overtaking itsself during the hare~tortoise race.
a simple contrast.
in mid~1990s, the average salary in Shanghai was only 500RMB(60USD)/month or so, only 1/20 in Taiwan/Hongkong or 1/40 in USA/EU/Japan.

now, freshmen's salary in Shanghai is about 5000-6000RMB(700-900 USD)/month, almost equal to that in Honghong/Taiwan,and about 1/3-1/2 in USA/EU/Japan.

Furthermore, considering the PPP, coastal mainland chinese in fact can afford cars/houses or save money more easily than ordinary Taiwanese/hongkongese.

In fact,many mainland chinese lable Taipei 'a big shit county~town' after they found Taipei's infrastructre is soo 'disappointing' and Taiwanese real life quality is even unexpectedly not higher than their own.

3. the hare's frustration is especially obvious among those oversea chinese who left for USA/EU/Japan in 1980-1990s.

those guys were all the best chinese talents of their generation,because only the best talent could defeat thousands of competitors and win the limited chance to study abroad.

after staying in west coutries,those guys could earn dozens times more salary than domestic chinese,and afford cars/houses that domestic chinese could not imagine at that time.

so, those guys seemed to have brighter future surly and obviously their opition（not return to china ）seemed absolutely right.

however, today,those 'best chinese talents' suddenly find their option at that time might not be 'right surely any more.
it is because many of ' the second_rate chinese talents,whom they defeated in the competion for the studying~abroad quotas ,have made much more achivements than those abroad 'best chinese talents',just because those 'second rate ones' stayed in china and aquired much more room of promotion/resource.

if those 'best talents' had returned to china in 1980~1990s,they surely would be more suceessful than now.



the best example is Prof. Lin Yifu ,the former deputy president and chief economist of World bank.
He was one of the dozens goverment sponsored talents studying in USA in early 1980s. and he was also the sole one who returned to mainland china.

another example is one of my senior_mid_school classmates. the guy is a talent of phyisics.
He graduated from one of best chinese unirversities, then studied in Japan/worked for Sangsumg Acadmy until 2008.
in 2008,he returned and was very frustrated that few good positions were left for him . when drinking with other old classmates and me,he said that he would have got a much better position,had he returned earlier.
however, with his telant and hard work,he finally got a good position and now is the member of one tech team of chinese moon_exploring programme. obviously,if he had gone on staying in japan, he wouldn't have chance to take part in a such geat programme.

[ranjan.rao]

Somehow the chinese people i meet are quite unlike these, they are quite rational people, Green card holders, happy to have moved out of china, respect indians, seems like my sample is quite biased or may be i havent scratched below the surface

[Samay]

Who's this Lieu man ? he seems to be living in a fantasy world of han dynasty.
Why dont Mr lieu say what degree of A$%$%le is Xi Jinping. Come on lieu please tell.

[Avtar Singh]

This thread has been derailed by troll..
I too can regale stories of how HKG chinese red cab drivers hate mainlanders,
but this stuff belongs somewhere else.

Please can we return to the original work by Shiv on how difficult tibetan terrain is
vis a vis chinese conquest of India

[Liu]

At the Battle of Chushul, all the assault units were 100% Uighurs/Mughals from PAP border-guards; the PLA was mainly providing mortar, HMG and radio-support. If you read the regimental history of the Jat Regiment, the NCOs/JCOs always call this battle "dharam-yuddh" (a war for faith) and all other battles "Cheen-yuddh" (the Chinese War).

Yes, border guards. And what about upper levels ? And do those still exist though ? In 1962 everyone could be inspired by the creation of the Chinese state (except the Tibetans of course). In 2017, just how much faith does the PLA have running battalions or regiments manned by Uighur or ethnic Tibetan, or better yet, have one command a Han majority regiment ? More importantly, how much faith do they have running such an entity *within* those regions , i.e. an Uighur regiment in Xinjiang or a Tibetan corps in Lhasa ? I doubt they have enough faith not to be shot at by their own in such a situation...

you seem not to understand how Chinese have run the country for thousands of years.

those polictical principles have run China for thousands of years ,since imperial CHina.

1. high-rank officals can not take the positions in their hometown、homecounty or homeprovince,in order to avoid nepotism.

for example, if one was born in Assam, He can not be named as the chief minister of Assam or other high-rank positions in Assam.
if one was born in Born in Bombay, he can not be named as the mayor/deputy maror of Bombay .

2.armed force can not be grouped by county/province,in order to avoid Local separatism and warlords.

uygur+tibet has only less than of 1% of chinese population.

well there always are about 20 members（only 7-9 standing members） of politburo.

even 1/20 means 5%,which is much larger than 1%（uygur+tibetan）.

besides,average eucation of uygurs and tibetan is much poorer than the nationwide average one,and many of them even can not speak mandarin（in fact,chinese government usually privide free 9~year free education,but many uygur/tibetan parent would rather send their children to mosques/temples than schools）.

can non~english~speaking ones have much chance to get highrank position in USA ?
if not, why just blame china?

Your proportionate representation formula does not work. Only THREE Politburo members since 1949 have been non-Han, none of them either Uighur or Tibetan, typically only Hui or Mongol. Non-Han combined represent 10% of your population. You're way way behind your own formula.

If they're uneducated, it means you've failed to educate them and have kept them down. That's right - the Han rule by keeping the minorities uneducated , disarmed and under their thumb. What's more, you don't *trust* them. No way would China ever put a Tibetan in charge of a PLA regiment, manned by Tibetans. You don't trust them not to turn around and shoot you , or desert over to the Indian side in war.

well, you are wrong. there are some well-educated minor ethnics such as manchus/koreans . they even have more chance to get high-rank positions than Han,measured by population %. there are many manchus/korean generals/artists/high-rank offiicals in CHina.
And there are tibetan generals（阿沛·阿旺晋美，the 3 stars general of PLA ) too.

[hnair]

you seem not to understand how Chinese have run the country for thousands of years.

those polictical principles have run China for thousands of years ,since imperial CHina.

1. high-rank officals can not take the positions in their hometown、homecounty or homeprovince,in order to avoid nepotism.

for example, if one was born in Assam, He can not be named as the chief minister of Assam or other high-rank positions in Assam.
if one was born in Born in Bombay, he can not be named as the mayor/deputy maror of Bombay .

2.armed force can not be grouped by county/province,in order to avoid Local separatism and warlords.

This is kind of a sad confession that the chinese has not figured how to run the country, despite thousand years of alleged civilization. Basically we are being told
1) a local leader will develop a mind of his own and will reject a federal authority at the first opportunity
2) suspicion of everyone from a certain area, prevents that area from having a ruler with empathy and instead, a soulless alien gets imposed on their heads by the central dictatorship/imperium
3) military is still struggling with command and control issues after so many centuries

India, despite all the very transparently discussed issues, seem to have figured out how to discipline local leaders from the same local communities and also have many ethnic/regional military regiments with centuries old history of disciplined warfare

Whomever is supervising Liu, REALLY needs to wake up

[nam]

Dont know if you guys have seen this. The Tibet Insurgency by the people involved. Nepal was a major launching pad for the insurgency.



It is fascinating that India & US were collaborating till 69 on Tibet. Within 2 years we were on the opposite side!

The 64 Chinese nuke test probably shut the down forever on Tibet. Pretty sure Chinese would have nuked any Indian action on Tibet.

[Liu]

you seem not to understand how Chinese have run the country for thousands of years.

those polictical principles have run China for thousands of years ,since imperial CHina.

1. high-rank officals can not take the positions in their hometown、homecounty or homeprovince,in order to avoid nepotism.

for example, if one was born in Assam, He can not be named as the chief minister of Assam or other high-rank positions in Assam.
if one was born in Born in Bombay, he can not be named as the mayor/deputy maror of Bombay .

2.armed force can not be grouped by county/province,in order to avoid Local separatism and warlords.

This is kind of a sad confession that the chinese has not figured how to run the country, despite thousand years of alleged civilization. Basically we are being told
1) a local leader will develop a mind of his own and will reject a federal authority at the first opportunity
2) suspicion of everyone from a certain area, prevents that area from having a ruler with empathy and instead, a soulless alien gets imposed on their heads by the central dictatorship/imperium
3) military is still struggling with command and control issues after so many centuries

India, despite all the very transparently discussed issues, seem to have figured out how to discipline local leaders from the same local communities and also have many ethnic/regional military regiments with centuries old history of disciplined warfare

Whomever is supervising Liu, REALLY needs to wake up

and

chinese has obeyed those princples for long time,and china has kept unity for long time.


indian has ingored those ones,and had hardy been united until britishmen conqered india.

hehe.

[ArjunPandit]

liu baba ur standards of united are different for china v/s india..wat say about the era of warring states where there were 8 china: chin, han qi, wei, yeu, zhao, hu and my fav Chu(coz it sounds too much like you). This is just one portion.
Also, you can't appreciate heterogeneity as India does. Net net you are a nation of more or less single race. India has been and will be a melting pot of cultures.
So buzz off. BTW the brits that conquered India gave your country the opium, you still seem to be high on that or you've moved on to LSD/heroin

[Suraj]

1. high-rank officals can not take the positions in their hometown、homecounty or homeprovince,in order to avoid nepotism.

What kind of nonsense are you peddling ? Are you seriously trying to tell us PLA does a count of everyone and forbids soldiers from Fujian, Zhejiang and Guangdong from being posted on Taiwan front ?

Civil services cadre being posted elsewhere isn't unique to China. That's exactly how we do it in India too - no one gets assigned to his own state cadre. That's to ensure people get a diverse work experience.

2.armed force can not be grouped by county/province,in order to avoid Local separatism and warlords.

Here I think you're revealing more. China is terrified of warlordism . Entire dynasties have been lost to warlords and warring states. Taiping Rebellion. The period after Yuan Shikai's death. All of these show that China is not inherently united, and its natural state is to separate into small warlord-ruled territories. China does not stay united except by top down central control. Weakening of central control leads to immediate catastrophe, resulting in anywhere from 5-40 million deaths. It has happened to you more than half a dozen times. China dominates the top 10 list of worst wars by human casualties. India on the other hand despite comparable population, has no entries at all.

And there are tibetan generals（阿沛·阿旺晋美，the 3 stars general of PLA ) too.

What's his name ?

Here's the problem with China. It cannot dream of things like a Gorkha regiment or Punjab regiment because their history shows that some analogue to a Punjabi or Gorkha warlord will take control of the organization and revolt the moment the writ of Beijing runs low. It's happened to them again and again. They cannot possibly man the Tibetan border with a Tibetan scout regiment. In fact, between India and China, the country that actually has a Tibetan Scout force is India, not China.

PLA cannot trust a Tibetan or Uighur regiment not to turn on them the moment Beijing's rule weakens. They cannot trust a Tibetan soldier standing at Tawang or the western sector to shoot a Monpa / Gorkha / Dogra Indian soldier who may be defending His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama on the other side . The average pimply faced PLA tongzhi from Zhejiang or Jiangsu would consider his chances of being shot at by his own Tibetan colleague as about 50:50 in such a situation.