LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby tandav » 15 Jul 2017 19:50

Singha wrote:a good example of the "right stuff" we need

http://www.hondajet.com/Company/
In 1986, a young Honda engineer named Michimasa Fujino crystallized that vision when Honda initiated research and development into an advanced, air-bound Honda. After four decades of both passion and hard work, the HondaJet creator has nearly completed his vision as the president and CEO of Honda Aircraft Company.

HondaJet was truly born from the power of dreams — the power that drove our innovations in aircraft design from thought to drawing board to flight. HondaJet began as an intellectual contemplation and developed into a series of questions: How could a light jet become more efficient, more elegant, more advanced?

Experimentation, exploration, and research ensued — and the HondaJet vision was realized through design innovations that create an integrated, technologically advanced aircraft. The realization of this dream is due to equal parts romance and pragmatism.

they were able to work with GE to develop their own jet engine - a fairly small core team looking at the pic.
http://jalopnik.com/honda-sets-aviation ... 1692242887


What is the advantage of the overwing engine mounting in the Hondajet over say an nearly equivalent fairing jutting from the fuselage to maintain the position of the engine to ensure clean airflow ? I thought the weight and structural penalties of carrying 2 heavy engines on the wing would outweigh than any advantages. The only advantage appears to be fuel supply piping if the wing tanks are primary fuel sources, I wonder if the aviation experts have commented on this novel approach and thrashed out pros and cons. Any links will be helpful.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Vashishtha » 15 Jul 2017 21:47

Structurally it is same whether engines are mounted underneath or over. The main advantage of this design is reduced risk of FOD

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 15 Jul 2017 23:04

Less noise in the cabin too.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Jul 2017 00:12

I have a feeling that this is the best way to ensure that "interference drag" between engine and wing is negative, i.e., drag of (engine+wing) < (isolated engine drag = isolated wing drag). Not easiest for engine maintenance. Cabin noise I think may be more because shielding due to wing is absent. Hondajet's biggest innovation is from their cars: totally seamless composite surfaces, no rivets nothing. Maintains laminar flow to some ridiculous Reynolds number, on wings AND fuselage. No one could touch anywhere near these values on production aircraft.

This is why my Evil 6th Coujin sat with EllSeeYay baboon in AyDeeYay back many saal pehle when first composite Brontosaurus prototype 3 (first composite prototype) was out, and urged them to bring some auto manufacturing experts into their team. SeeEffDee folks were complaining that their prediction was underpredicted transonic and supersonic drag. No wonder!! The panels seams were terrible. Just getting that fit done right by predicting thermal deformation in the autoclave, and whatever else Honda does, would IMO improve EllSeeYay's EllOverDee by a significant number. Maybe boost it to Mach 2 :mrgreen:
Maybe they have done that, but the production rate of 8 per year does not give much hope that they even have access to dedicated autoclaves.

That is one beautiful plane (I mean Tejas). If they could get the surface smooth, and we could crank out thousands...

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Vashishtha » 16 Jul 2017 00:45

Couldnt agree more. Got up close with the specimen at AI17 and the finishing work on the wing-body fairing panels looked bad. A fellow aerospace engineer with me pointed out the significant -ve effects it would have on the overall drag coefficient...

Hoping this was improved in the later prototypes and SP`s

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Jul 2017 01:23

The killer is that with the metal/rivet hand-hammered Prototype 1, things were MUCH better. With composites there is no "hand-finishing" - you have to predict the shape that the jig will take inside the autoclave, with thermal expansion (ishtudant of E6C used to work in a place where this was his job - calculating the jig shape taking thermal expansion into account). This is the REALLY costly part of composite manufacturing, but once you get the hang of it, as Honda and Toyota obviously have, the results can be amazing. This is why the baboon need to shed their Rocket Scientist secrecy and pride, and go beg and bring in the auto production line experts. They take high school diploma holders at best, train them to operate the machines, and out come these amazing creations where the fit is absolutely perfect. 100,000, 1 million in a year, all parts interchangeable and the holes line up perfectly.

Face it, guys. Airplanes/missiles are no longer the ultra-elegant queens of technological excellence. Cars & cellphones passed them way back.

This is why I said that with a 5000-UCAV production line, speed, quality and cost are all going to be in a completely different regime. Imagine the cost of, say, a flash drive or an Iphone if you only built 8 per year - by hand!

When ppl get too specialized they pigeonhole themselves in a narrow technology niche and strut around as Prince of Hi-Tech. They don't see that somewhere else, ragged beggars have long surpassed them - until one day some smart person hires said beggars and puts the Princes out of bijnej. Airplane production is ripe for takeover by the humble Ambassador car types. I think I bissed off someone by claiming that a UCAV is a heck of a lot less complicated than a car :mrgreen: But that is in fact the case today. All intricate nonlinear actuators replaced with servos and wires. Plus the UCAV does not have to drive on bad roads or brake suddenly on wet roads. If you have retractable landing gear, that's about the most complex part of it. Except of course the computer program...

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 16 Jul 2017 02:21

Well, I am sure your Evil 6th Cousin is growing old. Suggest he trains next gen in additives and printing. Now is the time. Else the cycle will repeat.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 16 Jul 2017 03:58

Bala Vignesh wrote:In case it was not shared earlier, Chaiwallah sources indicate that the gun firing trials which were to be carried out this month has been postponed due to weather conditions in the trial range.

No surprise.
OTH all delays to fulfill this milestone could have consequences if the vibration levels are bad as more aircraft would already be out of the factory.

Either they are very confident or just blase.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby nirav » 16 Jul 2017 04:00

Indranil,
Please go ahead and Perma ban me already.quit with the warnings.

When a moderator pompously declares he is going to take the "import pasand lobby" that shows that there is no space left on the forum to have an objective discussion.

@the airforce, the single engined fighter competition is going to happen irrespective of warning/banning me or "taking down" of any lobbies.
And the forum will descend into a higher degree of Randi rona and nAme calling.

I'm glad I won't be around to witness that.
Last edited by Indranil on 16 Jul 2017 23:03, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Personal attack. Warning issued.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jul 2017 06:12

Indian Air Force Jets Slated to Have Beyond-Visual-Range Strike Capacity by 2018
https://sputniknews.com/military/201707 ... -jets-bvr/

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jul 2017 06:26

The Tejas One Year After Induction – HAL must take Ownership of the Project
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... e-project/

By Dr Sanjay Badri-Maharaj

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Gyan » 16 Jul 2017 14:29

17th year of LCA flying and we have not fired the gun. There is definitely some delay.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby jamwal » 16 Jul 2017 15:54

nirav wrote:Indranil,
Please go ahead and Perma ban me already.quit with the warnings.

When a moderator pompously declares he is going to take the "import pasand lobby" that shows that there is no space left on the forum to have an objective discussion.

@the airforce, the single engined fighter competition is going to happen irrespective of warning/banning me or "taking down" of any lobbies.
And the forum will descend into a higher degree of Randi rona and nAme calling.

I'm glad I won't be around to witness that.

Stop being Rakhi Sawant and simply stop coming back to website. Why this randi rona ? :rotfl:
Objective discussuion with people of your mental level is an impossibility. Your demands for ban amply illustrate this point.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Khalsa » 16 Jul 2017 16:34

Lets get on with it shall we.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 16 Jul 2017 23:02

nirav wrote:Indranil,
Please go ahead and Perma ban me already.quit with the warnings.

When a moderator pompously declares he is going to take the "import pasand lobby" that shows that there is no space left on the forum to have an objective discussion.

@the airforce, the single engined fighter competition is going to happen irrespective of warning/banning me or "taking down" of any lobbies.
And the forum will descend into a higher degree of Randi rona and nAme calling.

I'm glad I won't be around to witness that.

I can only give you what you deserve. Whether you want to post or not is your prerogative. By the way, this is LCA thread, you can discuss me in the feedback thread. To rejog your memory, this is what I wrote.
Indranil wrote:I will take it upon myself personally as a poster to take you down if you post without knowing.

Indranil wrote:Time to take down the import pasand lobby here.

I have not called IAF import pasand, and I don't come from the school of thought where I can't question people I respect. I question my father, my major professor, colleagues, bosses all the time. Doesn't mean I don't respect or love them.

Don't hide behind the men in uniform. If you have a point, just state the point. Let it stand on its merit. Don't try to turn this into a match of proving who loves or respects the IAF most.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rahul M » 17 Jul 2017 00:14

nirav wrote:......

3rd warning = banned for 3 months.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 18 Jul 2017 10:36

Please clean this thread and move OT discussions to the feedback.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2017 21:49

Indranil, srai or anyone,

Does LCA avionics suite contain a Missile Approach Warning System(MAWS)?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby SaiK » 18 Jul 2017 22:19


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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 19 Jul 2017 02:15

ramana wrote:Indranil, srai or anyone,

Does LCA avionics suite contain a Missile Approach Warning System(MAWS)?


It does not. MAWS come with a weight & drag penalty as a result of which, putting them on light fighter is not easy

We have had a tough time thinking of how to fit them on the Su-30 itself.

IMO, before MAWS a working, reliable RWR + SPJ on the LCA Mk1 will be the IAFs test team's aim

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 19 Jul 2017 02:47

^^^
Any IAF fighter equipped with MAWS? Don't recall any type in service. Rafale may be the first when it enters service in 2019.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby SaiK » 19 Jul 2017 04:26

Didn't MKI get the EADS/DARE MAWS?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 19 Jul 2017 04:53

Karan M wrote:....

It does not. MAWS come with a weight & drag penalty as a result of which, putting them on light fighter is not easy

We have had a tough time thinking of how to fit them on the Su-30 itself.

IMO, before MAWS a working, reliable RWR + SPJ on the LCA Mk1 will be the IAFs test team's aim


Interesting. I think the F-16 which is about as high drag as fighters get has a MAWS. So why was it so tough on the SU-30 which is bigger and which is at least less draggy than a F16?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 05:05

KaranM,
I thought MAWS was part of the DARE Mayavi EW suite for the LCA. So what happened here?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shaun » 19 Jul 2017 07:24

Mayavi suite includes RWR and Jammer must be an upgraded D-29 from Elbit . Dual color MAWS i.e. Elbit PAWS installed on MKIs .
Even RWR can be MAWS for missiles having active seekers . PAWS is classified as IR based MAWS. Actual missile lunch can be detected by UV based MAWS from missiles plumes

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 19 Jul 2017 08:22

ramana wrote:KaranM,
I thought MAWS was part of the DARE Mayavi EW suite for the LCA. So what happened here?

Currently on Mk.1
Image

Future Mk.2 or 1/A
Image

Image
Last edited by srai on 19 Jul 2017 10:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shaun » 19 Jul 2017 09:32

Plz guide me , where is MAWS in the above pics ??

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 19 Jul 2017 10:31

^^^
It's not there. Updates are focused on RWJ.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby SajeevJino » 19 Jul 2017 11:42

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2013/10/

Here is a troves of info about MAWS and RWR equipements in IAF inventroy

Interestingly our Dhruv WSI/Rudra has MAWS :lol: But till now the so called Su 30 MKI doesnt't have these MAWS system, But they have RWR, The Super MKI upgrade was proposed to get D/C MAWS

Coming to Tejas,

The IAF is now favouring the installation (for both the Tejas Mk1 and Tejas Mk2) of an EW suite that will include SaabTech’s radar warning receiver and laser warning receiver along with the MILDS-F missile approach warning system (MAWS) sourced from EADS/Cassidian. This package has already been selected for both the EMB-145I AEW & CS programme, as well as for the Super Su-30MKI upgrade programme.


as MK 2 is dead, nothing on MK 1 so far, who knows what comes in MK 1 A

I'm not sure How many UV Receiver they need to mount on the aircraft in order to get 240 degree view, a Typical system comes with 6 pieces, maybe four in the Back and each in wing tip


Image

below pic of Dhruv WSI with MAWS installed,

Image

even few Dhruv MK 3 too have it


well one more, The upgraded MiG 29 UPG stated that it has the most effective internal jamming system, but no word of MAWS

The IAF’s MiG-29UPGs, in fact, have the IAF’s most advanced internally-mounted integrated EW suite, which includes Elettronica of Italy’s ELT-568 AESA-based jamming system (see below), which will also go on board the yet-to-be-upgraded Su-30MKIs.


Is there any matter, IAF feels RWR is enough for situational awareness, no need of MAWS for increased threat specifications

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby SajeevJino » 19 Jul 2017 11:59

just on mind, Is RWR can alert the pilot about the BVR approaching, Since BVR too emit radar frequency

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shaun » 19 Jul 2017 15:24

SajeevJino wrote:Interestingly our Dhruv WSI/Rudra has MAWS :lol: But till now the so called Su 30 MKI doesnt't have these MAWS system, But they have RWR, The Super MKI upgrade was proposed to get D/C MAWS


MKIs do have ELBIT built MAWS called PAWS . Issue of installing MAWS is real estate problem and hampering aerodynamics of A/cs . In a way RWR too should give some info about being painted by RF seeker missiles but it wont give situational awareness about the state of the missile and it's distance with respect to A/C's .

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 19 Jul 2017 15:39

MKIs dont have any MAWS. There is a real estate problem. MKI is full of Russian gear which never took into account such needs. DAREs solution is in trials. Its Israeli HW with Indian processing and SW. The Israeli MAWS sensors turned out bulkier and heavier than planned which made DARE jump through many hoops before they could come up with a schema that provides coverage but doesnt ruin the MKIs structure and flight envelope.
LCA diagrams sbove are both the same EW suite (Mk2 likely or podded on Mk1A) while the avionics glass duite was intended for Mk2. Note, sensor fusion.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 19 Jul 2017 15:44

shaun wrote:Mayavi suite includes RWR and Jammer must be an upgraded D-29 from Elbit . Dual color MAWS i.e. Elbit PAWS installed on MKIs .
Even RWR can be MAWS for missiles having active seekers . PAWS is classified as IR based MAWS. Actual missile lunch can be detected by UV based MAWS from missiles plumes


For LCA plan was RWR and jammer are combined into RWJ. LCA one had conventional tx codeveloped with Israel while Tx of MiG-29 hence D-29, uses high power AESA units codeveloped ( Elettronica).
Israel-desi MAWS is in trials, fighter class system.
Now Mk1A is to get podded system. At any rate LCA project experience has been leveraged for MiG-29, Su-30, Jaguar (DJAG)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby kvraghav » 19 Jul 2017 15:58

The MAWS and flares mostly go hand in hand. Without the MAWS, the pilot has to rely on wingman or himself to detect a IR missile to deploy flares. The fighters now a days avoid low level flights in hot zones and they can pull up easily and faster to out run an IR missile. The helicopter is a relatively easy target since it is slower and flies at lesser altitudes. Hence MAWS with flares is a bigger priority for helicopters.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Jul 2017 18:37

IIRC the RMAF flanker does have a swedish MAWS on it.... So how come there is so much difficulty with MKI?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 19 Jul 2017 20:36

I think the MAWs solution to an American problem of low flying aircraft from Stinger type missiles.

I used to read in Av& S W in the mid 90s of technology to detect incoming missile by looking at UV radiation from metal particles in the rocket exhaust. And launch countermeasures aka flares.

The RWR etc. would detect SAMs and AAMs which had radar guidance.

No need to self flagellate.
LCA has BVR and can shoot the incoming planes before any need for MAWS.
And no planes to fly low to be in range of Stinger type missiles.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby brar_w » 19 Jul 2017 20:48

MAWS provide earlier warning of an incoming Active-AAM since it does not need the seeker to go active before detecting a threat or finding its direction. With sensor fusion it can be paired with your countermeasure systems and slowly this has advanced to EODAS like (offensive/defensive instead of purely defensive sensors that are also used as wide area Infra red detection and tracking systems against all target types and as navigation sensors) sensors which have MAWS function as only part of their mission.

Here is a video of the F-22s (not a low flying aircraft) AN/AAR-56 -



They act as persistent, starting sensors looking for IR signatures that are then computed and analyzed by the mission systems to develop best estimates of type of threat and possibly the intended target etc. Active MRAAMs and SAMs engage their own seekers only towards the very tail end of their flight when they have the maximum change of finding the indented target within their search box.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 19 Jul 2017 21:44

Cain Marko wrote:IIRC the RMAF flanker does have a swedish MAWS on it.... So how come there is so much difficulty with MKI?


Lets not assume the IAF/DARE didn't just avoid an easy solution. The Avitronics MAWS on Su-30 MKM is behind technologically to the one we plan (ours is dual color) & also even it would have had a definite impact on the flight envelope. The Su-30 MKM also proudly displays the SAP518, and we now know how heavy and difficult to deploy those pods are. In short, they accepted the limitations, we are seeking to minimize them.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 19 Jul 2017 21:47

ramana wrote:I think the MAWs solution to an American problem of low flying aircraft from Stinger type missiles.

I used to read in Av& S W in the mid 90s of technology to detect incoming missile by looking at UV radiation from metal particles in the rocket exhaust. And launch countermeasures aka flares.

The RWR etc. would detect SAMs and AAMs which had radar guidance.

No need to self flagellate.
LCA has BVR and can shoot the incoming planes before any need for MAWS.
And no planes to fly low to be in range of Stinger type missiles.


Nailed it in one line. MAWS is definitely a huge requirement for low flying aircraft where distance of flight of missile and reaction time of pilot is very less. For high flying, medium alt aircraft it is good to have, but a sophisticated RWR + SPJ + advanced flares would take first priority IMHO.
Don't get me wrong, MAWS is great to provide any pilot cues of incoming attacks especially in a dense threat environment, but for the LCA the above sensors are the primary ones to induct first. A MAWS solution, e.g. pylon based without doing metal cutting of the Aircraft can be explored later.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 19 Jul 2017 21:49

kvraghav wrote:The MAWS and flares mostly go hand in hand. Without the MAWS, the pilot has to rely on wingman or himself to detect a IR missile to deploy flares. The fighters now a days avoid low level flights in hot zones and they can pull up easily and faster to out run an IR missile. The helicopter is a relatively easy target since it is slower and flies at lesser altitudes. Hence MAWS with flares is a bigger priority for helicopters.


Yes, correct. The EF even claims to have its defensive detection sensors RWR + MAWS cue both the jammers, flares & also provide automated cues to the pilot for the best escape geometry. Of course, looks good on paper, but then if 4-5 missiles come from different directions, I wonder how fancy that processing really is.


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