Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17090
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby chetak » 02 Sep 2017 06:57

x posted from the political thread

the previous congi pasand CAG purposely did damage before he demitted his office.

There was absolutely no need to make public such CAG reports as state of ammunition stores held in stock.

These are matters of national security and was expressly disclosed to embarrass the Modi govt.

Small minded baboo(n)s who vengefully damage the system to satisfy the perversity of their previous masters abound in our system


Doklam denouement: India needs long-term strategies to counter China

Doklam denouement: India needs long-term strategies to counter China

Aug 30, 2017

By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd)

Accustomed as we are to shrill hyperbole in India's public discourse, the description of the tense Himalayan face-off as the "incident at Doklam" and its denouement as "expeditious disengagement of border personnel" by the Ministry of External Affairs came across as refreshing examples of phlegmatic understatement. The diplomatic finesse shown by India stood in stark contrast to the Chinese spokesperson's gauche declaration that India had "pulled back all the trespassing personnel and equipment".

Political pundits and diplomatic analysts are likely to spend days deciphering the hidden meanings underlying the Chinese conduct and dialectic, seen and heard during the past six weeks. The common man has, understandably, heaved a sigh of relief at the (short-term) resolution of a dire crisis; an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation between two major military powers and nuclear-armed states.

The Chinese do not risk the outcome of a conflict on a single clash; they plan elaborate multiple strategies and the patient accumulation of small gains. Doklam was, by no means, India's last confrontation with China and there is, thus, no cause whatsoever for our soldiers, diplomats and political leadership to become complacent -- for four reasons.

Firstly, our 1962 military defeat was due to the egregious misreading of China's intent by India's political leadership. Fifty-five years on, clarity and resolve are still lacking vis-a-vis our strategic stance and policies towards an increasingly bellicose China.

This seeming diffidence is partly rooted in a fear of the unknown, our profound ignorance about this huge neighbour. We have neither created a substantive pool of Mandarin speakers, nor fostered many organisations dedicated to researching China's history, culture, economy, industry and strategic thought. With bizarre perversity, we have been spurning the huge window, into China, that a willing and cooperative Taiwan has been offering to us, for years. We need to stop groping in the dark and create strategies to counter China's long-term intentions.

Secondly, China, translating its enormous economic gains into coercive military power, expects neighbouring nations to voluntarily submit to Chinese hegemony. This is a clear echo of the distant past. In 416 BCE, when the mighty Athenian state overpowered the tiny island of Melos, it had delivered an ultimatum, using a similar chilling phraseology: "The strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must."

Servile personalities like Philippine President Duterte have given China false illusions of grandeur and power by kowtowing for economic gains. These illusions have been reinforced by America's aborted "pivot to Asia" and ineffectual "freedom of navigation" operations by US Navy. The artificial South China Sea islands are here to stay and China knows that possession is nine-points of law.

PLA Colonel Liu Mingfu's 2010 book, "China Dream", provides many pointers. It defines China's national goal as to become "number one" in the world, but rejecting the "peaceful rise" thesis, it advocates a "military rise" along with its "economic rise". A part of the "Chinese dream of national rejuvenation" is the establishment of a "unified global system", or Empire, termed tianxia in Mandarin. Order, in this system, is maintained under the aegis of a hegemon state, which dominates by virtue of its cknowledged superiority.

According to former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, the Chinese have been shrewd practitioners of realpolitik and follow a strategic doctrine distinctly different from the rest of the world. Followers of the game of chess or "shatranj", Indians think in terms of striking blows, decisive battles and finally checkmating or claiming total victory over the opponent.

The Chinese counterpart of shatranj is the game of "wei-qui", based on "surrounding pieces" and "strategic encirclement". Opponents seek empty spaces and building up of strength, surrounding and capturing opposing pieces. While chess encourages single-mindedness, wei-qui generates strategic flexibility. Let us learn to play wei-qui.

Thirdly, while patting ourselves on the back for deft diplomacy, let us not forget that we have had a close call. While our gallant armed forces could certainly have given a "bloody nose" (so eagerly sought by militant TV anchors) to the PLA on many fronts, a general war or even a limited clash would have been equally damaging to both nations and their economies.

Let us, also, remind ourselves that the PLA is undergirded by a military-industrial complex, established in the 1950s, which is a prolific producer of missiles, tanks, fighters, warships, submarines and ordnance. While the world has an inkling that the "Make in India" project is awaiting take-off, the feckless office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India saw it fit to choose this juncture to reveal every single shortcoming in India's half-full arsenal.

Avoiding knee-jerk responses, let us undertake long-term measures to ensure that our armed forces are always equipped and ready to fight a 30-day "intense war". also find ways to prevent statutory bodies like the CAG from endangering national security.

Finally, while the vision of China's grandiose, "One-Belt One Road" (OBOR) may be impressive as well as intimidating, the project relies on ports, seaborne commerce and sea lanes. India's non-participation in the project is already causing concern in Beijing. Chinese President Hu Jintao's famous reference to the "Malacca dilemma", which acknowledged the vulnerability of China's seaborne trade and energy, was, no doubt, rooted in India's dominant oceanic location and the possibility of trade warfare being waged by the Indian Navy. India must do everything to keep Hu Jintao's nightmare alive.

(Admiral Arun Prakash served as the Chief of Naval Staff of the Indian Navy and Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee, from July 31, 2004, to October 31, 2006. He can be contacted at arunp2810@yahoo.com)

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 02 Sep 2017 15:09

Chinese Dams in Tibet
https://youtu.be/IWxio36AIxE

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 131
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Vidur » 02 Sep 2017 16:43

Shiv, I have had the pleasure of going through your videos today. Excellent quality and application. I especially liked the one where you show the toporaphy of the 8 potential conflict points with China. Really good practical hands on stuff with a lot of though put it.

Vidur
BRFite
Posts: 131
Joined: 20 Aug 2017 18:57

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Vidur » 02 Sep 2017 16:48

chetak wrote:x posted from the political thread

the previous congi pasand CAG purposely did damage before he demitted his office.

There was absolutely no need to make public such CAG reports as state of ammunition stores held in stock.

These are matters of national security and was expressly disclosed to embarrass the Modi govt.

Small minded baboo(n)s who vengefully damage the system to satisfy the perversity of their previous masters abound in our system


Doklam denouement: India needs long-term strategies to counter China

Doklam denouement: India needs long-term strategies to counter China

Aug 30, 2017

By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd)

Accustomed as we are to shrill hyperbole in India's public discourse, the description of the tense Himalayan face-off as the "incident at Doklam" and its denouement as "expeditious disengagement of border personnel" by the Ministry of External Affairs came across as refreshing examples of phlegmatic understatement. The diplomatic finesse shown by India stood in stark contrast to the Chinese spokesperson's gauche declaration that India had "pulled back all the trespassing personnel and equipment".

Political pundits and diplomatic analysts are likely to spend days deciphering the hidden meanings underlying the Chinese conduct and dialectic, seen and heard during the past six weeks. The common man has, understandably, heaved a sigh of relief at the (short-term) resolution of a dire crisis; an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation between two major military powers and nuclear-armed states.

The Chinese do not risk the outcome of a conflict on a single clash; they plan elaborate multiple strategies and the patient accumulation of small gains. Doklam was, by no means, India's last confrontation with China and there is, thus, no cause whatsoever for our soldiers, diplomats and political leadership to become complacent -- for four reasons.

Firstly, our 1962 military defeat was due to the egregious misreading of China's intent by India's political leadership. Fifty-five years on, clarity and resolve are still lacking vis-a-vis our strategic stance and policies towards an increasingly bellicose China.

This seeming diffidence is partly rooted in a fear of the unknown, our profound ignorance about this huge neighbour. We have neither created a substantive pool of Mandarin speakers, nor fostered many organisations dedicated to researching China's history, culture, economy, industry and strategic thought. With bizarre perversity, we have been spurning the huge window, into China, that a willing and cooperative Taiwan has been offering to us, for years. We need to stop groping in the dark and create strategies to counter China's long-term intentions.

Secondly, China, translating its enormous economic gains into coercive military power, expects neighbouring nations to voluntarily submit to Chinese hegemony. This is a clear echo of the distant past. In 416 BCE, when the mighty Athenian state overpowered the tiny island of Melos, it had delivered an ultimatum, using a similar chilling phraseology: "The strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must."

Servile personalities like Philippine President Duterte have given China false illusions of grandeur and power by kowtowing for economic gains. These illusions have been reinforced by America's aborted "pivot to Asia" and ineffectual "freedom of navigation" operations by US Navy. The artificial South China Sea islands are here to stay and China knows that possession is nine-points of law.

PLA Colonel Liu Mingfu's 2010 book, "China Dream", provides many pointers. It defines China's national goal as to become "number one" in the world, but rejecting the "peaceful rise" thesis, it advocates a "military rise" along with its "economic rise". A part of the "Chinese dream of national rejuvenation" is the establishment of a "unified global system", or Empire, termed tianxia in Mandarin. Order, in this system, is maintained under the aegis of a hegemon state, which dominates by virtue of its cknowledged superiority.

According to former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, the Chinese have been shrewd practitioners of realpolitik and follow a strategic doctrine distinctly different from the rest of the world. Followers of the game of chess or "shatranj", Indians think in terms of striking blows, decisive battles and finally checkmating or claiming total victory over the opponent.

The Chinese counterpart of shatranj is the game of "wei-qui", based on "surrounding pieces" and "strategic encirclement". Opponents seek empty spaces and building up of strength, surrounding and capturing opposing pieces. While chess encourages single-mindedness, wei-qui generates strategic flexibility. Let us learn to play wei-qui.

Thirdly, while patting ourselves on the back for deft diplomacy, let us not forget that we have had a close call. While our gallant armed forces could certainly have given a "bloody nose" (so eagerly sought by militant TV anchors) to the PLA on many fronts, a general war or even a limited clash would have been equally damaging to both nations and their economies.

Let us, also, remind ourselves that the PLA is undergirded by a military-industrial complex, established in the 1950s, which is a prolific producer of missiles, tanks, fighters, warships, submarines and ordnance. While the world has an inkling that the "Make in India" project is awaiting take-off, the feckless office of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India saw it fit to choose this juncture to reveal every single shortcoming in India's half-full arsenal.

Avoiding knee-jerk responses, let us undertake long-term measures to ensure that our armed forces are always equipped and ready to fight a 30-day "intense war". also find ways to prevent statutory bodies like the CAG from endangering national security.

Finally, while the vision of China's grandiose, "One-Belt One Road" (OBOR) may be impressive as well as intimidating, the project relies on ports, seaborne commerce and sea lanes. India's non-participation in the project is already causing concern in Beijing. Chinese President Hu Jintao's famous reference to the "Malacca dilemma", which acknowledged the vulnerability of China's seaborne trade and energy, was, no doubt, rooted in India's dominant oceanic location and the possibility of trade warfare being waged by the Indian Navy. India must do everything to keep Hu Jintao's nightmare alive.

(Admiral Arun Prakash served as the Chief of Naval Staff of the Indian Navy and Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee, from July 31, 2004, to October 31, 2006. He can be contacted at arunp2810@yahoo.com)


As usual Arun Prakash sir distills the essence. But we don't have the structures to absorb this message and act on the recommendations.

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7426
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby anupmisra » 02 Sep 2017 17:39

Shiver this, me timbers.

Pakistan will be defended, announces China

China on Thursday sent out a signal that it would defend Pakistan and would object to any discussion about Pakistan’s role in sheltering terrorists during the upcoming BRICS summit, which would be attended by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, foreign media reported.


So, chinis admit that their ward is guilty but will defend it anyway. Like a doting mother.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/227606 ... nces-China

Anurag
BRFite
Posts: 395
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Anurag » 02 Sep 2017 18:36

anupmisra wrote:Shiver this, me timbers.

Pakistan will be defended, announces China

China on Thursday sent out a signal that it would defend Pakistan and would object to any discussion about Pakistan’s role in sheltering terrorists during the upcoming BRICS summit, which would be attended by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, foreign media reported.


So, chinis admit that their ward is guilty but will defend it anyway. Like a doting mother.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/227606 ... nces-China


If this is actually true it is good news for India. Beijing can expect that anything coming from their Munnah to India is not a zero sum game in India's response.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9779
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby sum » 03 Sep 2017 03:57

Agree. Are Chinese so dumb to really start defending Paki terror publicly?

Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4264
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Arjun » 03 Sep 2017 07:03

There seems to be a fundamental clash of values here which makes the whole BRICS or any other platform that seeks to bring China and India together on one platform completely untenable !

At a time when Modi has made going against terror sponsors his signature song in all global speeches - here is a nation that BRAZENLY supports and defends terror sponsors.

I am afraid, while the Chinese are hardworking people and worthy competitors to PIOs in the many hotspots of global competition -under the CPC there does not seem to be any hope of bhai-bhai relationship. India will have to bring the whole Chinese edifice crashing down for its own good and that of the rest of the world.

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7426
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby anupmisra » 03 Sep 2017 07:17

sum wrote:Agree. Are Chinese so dumb to really start defending Paki terror publicly?


Apparently (and foolishly) they just did with that statement.

UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9218
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Sep 2017 07:31

Isn't this wooden shoe shivering based on Trump Speech?

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby shiv » 03 Sep 2017 07:32

anupmisra wrote:Shiver this, me timbers.

Pakistan will be defended, announces China

Hold your horses folks. Over10 years of reading Paki news should have taught us - that is news.com pk. I bet both my testimonials that this is NOT what China said. Let's keep shitistani propagandu off here


RCase
BRFite
Posts: 1921
Joined: 02 Sep 2011 22:50
Location: Awaiting the sabbath of Fry djinns

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby RCase » 03 Sep 2017 08:00

shiv wrote:Chinese Dams in Tibet
https://youtu.be/IWxio36AIxE


Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?
This is a 'Shiver'. :D
Thanks for the great videos Shiv.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5407
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 07 Sep 2017 03:52

Army chief says China taking over territory gradually, warns of two-front war
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... Kb24H.html

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5407
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2017 06:48

In case you missed this video of Defence Minister Sitharaman chatting with
Chinese troops on Sunday at Nathu La. Interesting sequence -->
https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/917109737161875456

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5407
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 16 Oct 2017 00:50

After Doklam, army anticipates next Chinese intrusion in Uttarakhand
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/10/a ... -next.html

Orders faster road building to four critical border passes in Central Sector, beefs up troops.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5407
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Rakesh » 09 Dec 2017 22:23

https://twitter.com/shivaroor/status/939030476429312000 —> ‘We leveraged the absence of our media in Doklam to our advantage. It was the Chinese who went running to their media this time. It was unprecedented,’ Says Lt Gen (R) Pravin Bakshi.

https://twitter.com/shivaroor/status/939029181584650242 —> ‘We found the Chinese breaking rank often & playing motivational music for their own troops in Doklam’: Lt Gen (R) Pravin Bakshi, who recently retired as Eastern Army Commander.

anupmisra
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7426
Joined: 12 Nov 2006 04:16
Location: New York

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby anupmisra » 10 Dec 2017 02:56

India should apologize for drone intrusion
GobarSlimes warning.

An Indian unmanned aerial vehicle entered Chinese territory and crashed in the border area close to India's Sikkim State.
Indian media reported Friday that India is asking China through diplomatic channels to return the drone. The statement by the Indian defense ministry barely mentioned the intrusion, with no hint of an apology.
India needs to first correct its attitude by admitting the intrusion was wrong. It needs to apologize to China and promise no such incident will ever happen again.
The Chinese side's investigation will determine how Beijing deals with the incident. If India wants to improve relations (here's an out), it should cooperate with the investigation.
If China is certain that the Indian military sent a drone into Chinese territory with hostile intentions and New Delhi keeps up its bad manners, the consequences will be far worse (an actual threat) than losing a drone.
India clearly did not behave itself.
Even if it is a technical problem, why is that technical problem happening at the exact wrong place and wrong time :rotfl: ? If a Chinese drone flew into Indian territory due to a technical failure, would India accept an explanation that such an incident was a mere accident?
The Indian military has gone too far.
New Delhi is relying excessively on China's good will
China has the full right to handle the Indian drone issue as it sees fit and the right to take further actions based on the results of the investigation and India's attitude.
India did not learn its lessons from the Doklam standoff and its military's provocation in the border areas is ongoing. China needs to respond strongly.


Are you shivering in your dhotis yet?

OK. Here's a possible apology.

"Dear chini bilathers,

We are so solly that the chini-made dlone malfunctioned and clashed into the illegally occupied Tibet. If you hand it (the dlone, not Tibet) back to us, we will gladly shale the lesults of our findings (why the dlone malfunctioned) so that you can implove your ploduct line and make more money from its sales during the 2018 Chlistmas Season). We plomise not to levelse engineel the dlone. As you know Walmalt and Kmalt may remove this ploduct from its shelves based on this malfunction, if we were to publicize it.

By the way, how is SeePak working out? Best wishes to Eleven Gin Pegs on his taking total command of the PLA.

Your true, three-thousand year old friend, cultural guide, and off & on mentor,

India.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1079406.shtml

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1125
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 10 Dec 2017 03:22

I am waiting for chola to respond by saying that we should have slaughtered the chinese in doklam :D. That said I am very curious that how could it compromise our heron fleet and we will see more of such drones intruding our air space

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2528
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby chola » 10 Dec 2017 20:59

ArjunPandit wrote:I am waiting for chola to respond by saying that we should have slaughtered the chinese in doklam :D. That said I am very curious that how could it compromise our heron fleet and we will see more of such drones intruding our air space


We should have sluaghtered the chinis at Doklam. The numbers are there — in men, equipment and aircraft. It would have been an easy but epic victory over a P5.

And what the hell good is foregoing our own MIC to have all these firangi systems if we’re going to use then.

With a mercantile and manufacturing nation like Cheen who can’t fight and hasn’t fought in decades, a hostile peace works to their favor where their money and production win the gray areas because we cannot we cannot use our advantage in experience and quality in actual warfare.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1125
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 10 Dec 2017 21:08

chola wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:I am waiting for chola to respond by saying that we should have slaughtered the chinese in doklam :D. That said I am very curious that how could it compromise our heron fleet and we will see more of such drones intruding our air space


We should have slaughtered the chinis at Doklam. The numbers are there — in men, equipment and aircraft. It would have been an easy but epic victory over a P5.

And what the hell good is foregoing our own MIC to have all these firangi systems if we’re going to use then.

With a mercantile and manufacturing nation like Cheen who can’t fight and hasn’t fought in decades, a hostile peace works to their favor where their money and production win the gray areas because we cannot we cannot use our advantage in experience and quality in actual warfare.

with hindsight, i actually agree to it, that we should not have let these buggers go away. From the news it appears that the lizard just hid behind the tube light plate and will sneak out anytime

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1125
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Jan 2018 23:53

Don't see this being posted on any forum
Chinese presence in Doklam

The Print report says satellite images from December 10 show concrete posts, seven helipads, new trenches and several dozen armoured vehicles close to the point where the Indian Army and the People's Liberation Army (PLA) troops were locked in a 72-day confrontation last year.

#China #PLA has already occupied the entire #Doklam plateau right upto 10m from #IndianArmy post.
Atleast two mech regiments with transporters +additional >100 vehicles+7helipads+concrete hexagonal observation tower can view entire #Gnathang valley & more


The report says a large number of fighting posts have been created on almost every hillock on North Doklam plateau, and numerous areas have been dug out, possibly to accommodate troops under camouflage at a later date.

"At least seven new helipads have been constructed with permanent cemented round bases. The diameter of the helipads is 25 metres, suggesting that the largest helicopters in the PLA inventory will be able to land here," the report says.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1125
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Jan 2018 23:58

Rawat sir's statement on this

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/dont-see-serious-trouble-but-forces-ready-for-any-exigency-army-chief-bipin-rawat-on-doklam/articleshow/62542460.cms
They have carried out some infrastructure development, most of it is temporary in nature. But while their troops may have returned and the infrastructure remains, it is any body's guess whether they would come back there, or it is because of the winter they could not take their equipment away," Rawat said.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1083
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby nam » 18 Jan 2018 00:05

ArjunPandit wrote:Don't see this being posted on any forum
Chinese presence in Doklam



So the TFTA PLA is hurriedly covering it's back side, after it was caught with it's pants down? No wonder it was all talk, given that they had nothing on the LAC during the crisis.

Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 313
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Trikaal » 18 Jan 2018 00:51

ArjunPandit wrote:Rawat sir's statement on this

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/dont-see-serious-trouble-but-forces-ready-for-any-exigency-army-chief-bipin-rawat-on-doklam/articleshow/62542460.cms
They have carried out some infrastructure development, most of it is temporary in nature. But while their troops may have returned and the infrastructure remains, it is any body's guess whether they would come back there, or it is because of the winter they could not take their equipment away," Rawat said.


Question- if PLA troops have returned to doklam, in whatever small nos, then why haven't indian troops crossed border again? Have we tacitly given up on doklam, with a face saving agreement that pla would not increase troop nos there? I was very proud of how we had handled this incident but now it seems like it is india that backed down.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1083
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby nam » 18 Jan 2018 04:28

We cannot loose what we don't have in the first place.
Doklam is not Indian territory.

It is disputed between Bhutan & China and under Chinese control for decades.

Our job was to prevent road extension. And there is no extension.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62678
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Singha » 18 Jan 2018 04:33

Their infra there is for show and smoke. Completely exposed and no use during a real fight. Wont last 10 minutes.

We need to work with bhutan to ensure no nibbling
But they can build hotels brothels and casinos for their troops if they want

Looks like actual troops have gone away in winter and left behind a skeleton outfit and empty structures from coas stmt

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1125
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Jan 2018 05:12

Trikaal wrote:


Question- if PLA troops have returned to doklam, in whatever small nos, then why haven't indian troops crossed border again? Have we tacitly given up on doklam, with a face saving agreement that pla would not increase troop nos there? I was very proud of how we had handled this incident but now it seems like it is india that backed down.

1. My sense is indian troops are there, read that they are 10ms from indian troops/posts on mobile so cant find again
2. Even in earlier standoff it was not a question of doklam being ours or Bhutan's. The main point was whether we want chinis to have any toehold on plateau to give them a wet dream of hitting of our chicken's neck.
3. I would not dhoti shiver at this moment, even if they are there

brvarsh
BRFite
Posts: 179
Joined: 03 Mar 2011 20:29

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby brvarsh » 18 Jan 2018 05:55

The intent of Chinese is fairly clear - If their troops are coming back then they are using it as a face savior in front of their own domestic audience. India has already shown its intent and capacity to respond to any misadventure by China in the region. Another physical confrontation is not needed, we may fall in their trap too. All we need to do there is tangibly show any Chinese presence is guaranteed to be devastated with no exit points by permanently establishing a mechanized force in the area capable of responding in minutes. Make Chinese presence so costly for China that it becomes a drain for them. Just poke a hole in their tub, they will drain by themselves.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10260
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby pankajs » 18 Jan 2018 08:49

No Major weapon/deployment is needed to confront the Chinese on the Doklam plateau. Has anyone checked the entry pass to the plateau on the Chinese side and the approach road to this entry point? If not then do a check this only approach. If the Chinese push for a confrontation on the plateau it will prove a trap for them.

Only sufficient shoulder fired ATGMs need to be deployed to take care of all the Chinese machines deployed on the plateau with no escape. Perhaps will prove an apt testing ground for the Rudra/LCH.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 62678
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Singha » 18 Jan 2018 08:55

i figure our rocket and tube artillery in concealed positions on reverse slopes and caves well in the rear will take care of the matter, after IAF blocks a few choke points on the road.

that place is indefensible for them, being surrounded by india and bhutan on 3 sides. they know it. the palace and casino building is like a weak dog pissing in the backyard of a bigger dog and waving a flag to show that he too has a shlong

thats why COAS and IA are nonchalant about this boost to the construction industry there. we have them where we want them , right in the open under our guns

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2528
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby chola » 18 Jan 2018 09:19

This is their MO. They are using infrastructure as a dog uses its piss: to mark disputed or gray territory as theirs.

Remember, we got involved because that piece of land was obstensibly Bhutan’s. Now it is full of chini equipment, as Raj47 says, all the way to within 10 meters of our trenches. They are taking a well-calculated risk that we won’t wipe them out for Bhutan.

So the proper strategy is to wipe them out.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1125
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Jan 2018 09:30

Apart from the sizzling sulemani keeda in Chinese, what could be the other motivation?
1. H&D
2. Distraction for the US from South china to highlight that they can open multiple fronts anytime
3. Increase the costs (might be blessing in disguise for us)?
4. Pressure release for pakis
5. Future occupation as highlighted by Chola
6. Distraction prior to to attack anywhere else

Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 313
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Trikaal » 18 Jan 2018 09:45

ArjunPandit wrote:1. My sense is indian troops are there, read that they are 10ms from indian troops/posts on mobile so cant find again
2. Even in earlier standoff it was not a question of doklam being ours or Bhutan's. The main point was whether we want chinis to have any toehold on plateau to give them a wet dream of hitting of our chicken's neck.
3. I would not dhoti shiver at this moment, even if they are there


1.Indian troops are within indian border. Chini troops are on bhutan land, right upto 10 ms of indian border. They have sliced the salami and are now gobbling it up. We need to gut punch them to make them puke it back out.

2.Exactly,and we are allowing Cheen to hv that foothold by burying our heads in the sand and saying hey the troop nos are less, the structures are skeletal, etc etc. Doesn't matter coz chinis get the foothold. Now they will eyeball us at the border while completely taking over the entire doklam plateau and all the work done in the earlier confrontation will be for nothing.

3.i am not shivering out of fear, it is out of anger.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19363
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Philip » 18 Jan 2018 10:02

The only answer is for India to massively ramp up its infrastructure on the LAC on our side.Airstrips, helipads bunkers for troops, etc. from where they can swiftly deploy to fend off any Chin intrusion .However we are v.short on ATGMs, MANPADS, e tc. vital for the 20 day intense period of conflict.The IA requires some 40K ATGMS Nag class.Nag has been found to be v.expensive by the IA with a few technical issues being sorted out and should be cleared asap.

It has also been overtaken in tech by the latest 5th- gen French ATGM offered to us as a JV with L&T for a family of missiles based upon it.Spike is back in the reckoning after Bibi N' s triumphant visit.A deal for part of the IA's requirement will now be met with imports of Spike while the DRDO will manufacture the rest to its own ATGM.The French missile on offer is said to be the only one of its class in the world with sev. innovations.Our current inventory is mainly of non-night fighting Sov. era Konkurs/ Kornet and Milan missiles.Hence the need asap for Spike, preferred over the US Javelin.

Apart from the ATGMs , the helo inventory must also be strengthened.Heavy lift helos vitally wanted to lift heavy eqpt. for the BRO.More M1-26T upgraded helos- the world's largest in service, must be bought.We have a small no. supposed to be heading for upgrades.No news of the Chinooks too.Another batch of them also required.At the med. size, the large no. of MI-17s are doing a fine job.A pity we never ever sought to build them here considering we have around 200 in service/ on order.
With the end of an era of operating MI-8s, their predecessor, the workhorse will continue to be the MI-17V.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1125
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Jan 2018 10:07

^^Sir, is the above post really required on this thread?

Trikaal
BRFite
Posts: 313
Joined: 19 Jul 2017 08:01

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Trikaal » 18 Jan 2018 10:21

The correct response is to cross the damn border and evict the intruding chinese from bhutan land. This strategy if delaying while building up their strength is an old one of the chinese and we cannot fall into this trap. Cribbing about shortage in manpads, 5th gen fighters, helos and whatnot is just deflection strategy. We will always be short of something. Doesn't mean we just bend over and take it like other chini neighbors.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20829
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Prem » 18 Jan 2018 10:32

http://www.opindia.com/2018/01/it-is-th ... t-package/
It’s the same old ‘renewed aggression at Doklam’ lie in a brand new ‘The Print’ package

The Print article claims that China has “occupied North Doklam” with armoured vehicles and 7 helipads. For the layman’s benefit, this is like saying India has “occupied” Sikkim by increasing the presence of its own troops in its own territory. As mentioned before, North Doklam and the area beyond North Doklam, Yadong, are undisputed Chinese territory and China can do as they please. One wonders then, what does The Print mean when it says that this poses “New trouble for India”?PLA presence has always been there in Yadong and North Doklam and this phenomenon is nothing new. Increased presence, if at all, is of no relevance as long as the 150m status quo is maintained both by the Indian Army and PLA.The author and The Print treacherously omit that North Doklam is Chinese territory and by repeatedly mentioning how it’s “close to stand-off point”, insinuate that there is already renewed aggression, an assertion that cannot be further from the truth.
A very interesting portion of the article says :
“A large number of troops seem to have been kept in tents under very good camouflage, but certainly not good enough for satellite imagery not to spot them”.Firstly, the stand-off was triggered because of ‘pakka road construction in the disputed site’. When the author seeks to fear monger based on PLA troops, living in kaccha tents in their own territory, one can only be thoroughly amused. I wish someone also informed the author, that if the troop presence can be so easily tracked by commercial satellite imagery, the troops are probably not trying to hide at all. It’s their territory and they don’t feel the need to.After a barrage of baseless assumptions, the author finally concludes with the central point :“New roads have been constructed to cover the North Doklam plateau. Work is in progress to widen existing roads. Most of the roads have communication trenches running along them”.
The author ominously says that new roads have been constructed in North Doklam and there is work in progress to widen the existing roads. Again, to reiterate, they can build roads in North Doklam since it is undisputed Chinese territory. As far as the widening of existing roads are concerned, it is again not something that India objects to considering it’s in their own territory. The stand-off was a result of attempts to make new pakka roads in the disputed area, not widening of old roads in undisputed areas.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10260
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby pankajs » 18 Jan 2018 10:38

Even this is as much of a spin as the print fart ....

The Print if half right in that the Chinese have reinforced their position in North half of the plateau and opIndia is wrong in claiming that was "undisputed". The whole of the Doklam plateau is disputed. OpIndia has used the same trick that one gent tried on this forum before of mixing Doklam plateau with some general Doklam area to its north but to argue the opposite.

OTOH, opIndia is right in that we had objected to the EXTERNSION of the old road past the Indian post at Doka La and that has stopped.

So both are half right or half wrong or spinning to an extent to push their own favored narrative. There are more layer to the situation if one wants to dig further.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19363
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Latest Chinese boast: should we shiver or die laughing?

Postby Philip » 18 Jan 2018 11:00

We should've disputed the ownership of Tibet the day the Chins declared Ar.Pr. " Southern Tibet".Our MEA in the past and Cong. admins lacked guts.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gauravsharma, Vamsi31 and 23 guests