Artillery: News & Discussion

Thakur_B
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Sep 2018 12:38

Singha wrote:the MGS looks very soothing and low slung. a mix of the OFB MGS and bharat forge Denel should be ordered



Singha ji it's Tata Denel MGS with that TFTA lintel design.
Last edited by Thakur_B on 01 Oct 2018 09:00, edited 1 time in total.

nam
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 01 Oct 2018 00:10

Our neighbor's joy and pride, with it's orginal owner catching fire.


ramana
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Oct 2018 10:12

So all OFB shells working fine!!!!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Oct 2018 10:30

Vips wrote:If only the Tatra truck is replaced by TATA or ASHOK Leyland 8X8. I hope OFB does not give lazy BEML the opportunity to show topline growth every year just by doing screwdrivergiri. Pretty stupid to buy foreign stuff when Indian products would atleast be equal if not better.

Tatra is in a different league..

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ashishvikas » 01 Oct 2018 10:52

ks_sachin wrote:
Vips wrote:If only the Tatra truck is replaced by TATA or ASHOK Leyland 8X8. I hope OFB does not give lazy BEML the opportunity to show topline growth every year just by doing screwdrivergiri. Pretty stupid to buy foreign stuff when Indian products would atleast be equal if not better.

Tatra is in a different league..


Are TATAs/AL 8x8 not good enough against TATRA ? What makes them so special ?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Oct 2018 12:02

Tatra 815 from Wiki


Central load-carrying tube
The primary structural feature of Tatra trucks is the central load carrying tube, also called a backbone frame. All other parts of the truck are mounted to this rigid assembly. The inherently high torsional and flexural rigidity of this layout protects superstructures from the motions and forces on the axles. Torque distribution to the axles is also carried within the backbone.[5]


[

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 01 Oct 2018 12:22

tatra and the russian "urals" trucks are formidable in x-country on really bad terrain.

the murican HEMTT and the leyland, tatas do not look as able to push through impossible conditions.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Oct 2018 12:36

GD read the description of central torque tube,

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Oct 2018 12:42

ashishvikas wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Tatra is in a different league..


Are TATAs/AL 8x8 not good enough against TATRA ? What makes them so special ?

Thete is more to it than 8c8 wheels!!!

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 12 Oct 2018 06:06

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/105 ... 92832?s=21 —> Kalyani says that the titanium version of its 155 mm /39 caliber ultra lightweight howitzer (ULH) weighs 4.5 tonne, while the steel version is heavier at 6.7 tonne.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 13 Oct 2018 22:51

Found this during my internet surfing. BF ULH firing "something".

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 14 Oct 2018 12:40

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/1050486401622392832?s=21 —> Kalyani says that the titanium version of its 155 mm /39 caliber ultra lightweight howitzer (ULH) weighs 4.5 tonne, while the steel version is heavier at 6.7 tonne.

I was expecting it be be lesser than that, given that the 40 year old M198 comes in at 7.1t.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 14 Oct 2018 12:49

Amass a 1000 artillery guns on the paki border and let them loose at any terrorist ..or better to use specialised ones to burrow tunnels :((

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 14 Oct 2018 15:06

abhik wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/1050486401622392832?s=21 —> Kalyani says that the titanium version of its 155 mm /39 caliber ultra lightweight howitzer (ULH) weighs 4.5 tonne, while the steel version is heavier at 6.7 tonne.

I was expecting it be be lesser than that, given that the 40 year old M198 comes in at 7.1t.


I think its ok for a company making their first light gun, From my discussion with a company representative involved in the project they have made it modular so that the gun can be divided into parts for transportation and reassembled in the field with minimum effort. They have made the steel version mainly to make them more affordable

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 14 Oct 2018 15:14

Also titanium version are maintenance intensive & expensive, compared to traditional metal like steel.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 14 Oct 2018 15:57

nam wrote:Found this during my internet surfing. BF ULH firing "something".

Looks like they have something fixed at the opening of the barrel, perhaps the projectile part of the shell. Some intermediate fire testing looks like. But nonetheless good to see.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Oct 2018 18:29

That looks like gas just as it comes out of muzzle brake. The shell is just about past the barrel. It’s still at a stage where gases cannot expand out from front.

JMT

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 14 Oct 2018 18:54

JayS wrote:
nam wrote:Found this during my internet surfing. BF ULH firing "something".

Looks like they have something fixed at the opening of the barrel, perhaps the projectile part of the shell. Some intermediate fire testing looks like. But nonetheless good to see.

The towing ring/bar probably.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 14 Oct 2018 19:01

It looks like a round and some explosive charge under the round.

The explosion seem to push the barrel back, like a usual round firing. Although the round is not exiting the barrel, rather it is already out of the barrel.

This may be testing of the recoil system. Not qualified enough to guess why they are doing it this way. However the recoil system for this round looks more stable than other ULWH system.
Last edited by nam on 14 Oct 2018 19:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 14 Oct 2018 19:40

abhik wrote:
JayS wrote:Looks like they have something fixed at the opening of the barrel, perhaps the projectile part of the shell. Some intermediate fire testing looks like. But nonetheless good to see.

The towing ring/bar probably.


The GIF starts from the moment the shell leaves the barrel and not the entire sequence so the shell seems static & looks like its fixed to the barrel

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby JayS » 14 Oct 2018 20:53

^^ Quite possible. That makes more sense.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Oct 2018 14:44

JayS wrote:^^ Quite possible. That makes more sense.

And supports my hypothesis...JMT

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Katare » 16 Oct 2018 21:31

Cold testing only,

hot fire would not produce nice watery clouds but fire of hell coming out of the muzzle brakes

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 18 Oct 2018 06:22

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1052570755358060547 ---> Great photos accessed by Rahul Singh: first of the K9 Vajra and M777 at the Indian Army's Deolali firing range.

Image

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 21 Oct 2018 04:40

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/in ... ive-02872/

Has IA given a dozen of these shells to ARDE and do reverse engineering to develop better rounds? Or is the contract so holy that cant be done?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 21 Oct 2018 17:28

58 caliber M109. 62 km range!

Always wondered why we did not go 55 caliber on ATAGS.


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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 21 Oct 2018 18:17

^ They have achieved their desired accuracy out to 40 miles but testing and demonstrations are ongoing and the goal is to reach 45 miles with the current ammo and 80 miles with a new round (by 2023). The ER rocket is wrapping up testing with a Max range of 139 km with the tail controlled section and then they begin working on a new motor to get it to 150+ km.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 21 Oct 2018 19:17

brar_w wrote:^ They have achieved their desired accuracy out to 40 miles but testing and demonstrations are ongoing and the goal is to reach 45 miles with the current ammo and 80 miles with a new round (by 2023). The ER rocket is wrapping up testing with a Max range of 139 km with the tail controlled section and then they begin working on a new motor to get it to 150+ km.

Did they get the huge range increase (from 70 to 139) just by moving the control surfaces to the tail - seems incredible? Which means Pinaka rocket can also evolve to reach this range, given the similarity size of the two rockets.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 22 Oct 2018 00:51

FIREPOWER: Defending India Episode 1 - Great Guns


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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 22 Oct 2018 02:08

Abhik, He is talking of tail rocket motors in the shell to give extra range.

I don't like the idea of longer barrels as they need extra maintenance, care to avoid balloting.
Better idea is the tail motor to give extra range.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 22 Oct 2018 03:35

abhik wrote:Did they get the huge range increase (from 70 to 139) just by moving the control surfaces to the tail - seems incredible? Which means Pinaka rocket can also evolve to reach this range, given the similarity size of the two rockets.


Yes that is how they got it. Modified the rocket motor and moved the control surfaces to the rear. A second modification to the rocket motor is planned for the 2020s which will look to increase range by about another 20%.

On the cannon system the range increase is done by both the new barrel and the rounds. Going forward, the 70 km to 130 km boost will be gotten via either solid fueled ramjet, or by employing a HVP round, the latter has already been fired from the M777 but for an air-defense role. Beyond that (150-200 km) you almost have to go to an EMRG type set up.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 22 Oct 2018 08:40

how can just moving a control surface increase range?
bigger surfaces to generate more lift and some airflow smoothing and drag reduction measures ?

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Oct 2018 09:26

Singha wrote:how can just moving a control surface increase range?
bigger surfaces to generate more lift and some airflow smoothing and drag reduction measures ?


I am guessing the rocket is propelled to a high altitude where the drag is low enough, and the increased control surface help the rocket glide for far greater distance. The onboard INS and GPS help the rocket from going astray, unlike the traditional dumb rocket.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby hnair » 22 Oct 2018 10:07

brar_w wrote:Yes that is how they got it. Modified the rocket motor and moved the control surfaces to the rear. A second modification to the rocket motor is planned for the 2020s which will look to increase range by about another 20%.



Interesting. I thought most recent missiles are moving to having static stablizer fins at the back and moving all the aerodynamic control to canard fins towards front, so the simplified workhorse rocket motor can be manufactured easily and entire guidance+actuator package can be in a single segment (in the front) for mix-n-match into missiles with varying range and mission profiles, like they do nowadays. A la PGK/python designs

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Oct 2018 10:17

brar_w wrote:^ They have achieved their desired accuracy out to 40 miles but testing and demonstrations are ongoing and the goal is to reach 45 miles with the current ammo and 80 miles with a new round (by 2023). The ER rocket is wrapping up testing with a Max range of 139 km with the tail controlled section and then they begin working on a new motor to get it to 150+ km.

are you aware if some of these things are also being tried in swades? Even the ATAGS itself was sort of record breaker. Next steps after the delivery of ATAGSs, K9, etc.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby shaun » 22 Oct 2018 10:31

How would the denel system faired compare to K9 . If not because of a politician and her backers , we would have seen denel in service .

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 22 Oct 2018 10:38

ramana wrote:Abhik, He is talking of tail rocket motors in the shell to give extra range.

I don't like the idea of longer barrels as they need extra maintenance, care to avoid balloting.
Better idea is the tail motor to give extra range.

The second half of the video is actually showing updated MLRS rocket not the 155mm rocket assisted artillery shell.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 22 Oct 2018 16:26

Singha wrote:how can just moving a control surface increase range?
bigger surfaces to generate more lift and some airflow smoothing and drag reduction measures ?


https://www.amrdec.army.mil/amrdec/pdf/ ... _19_17.pdf



The PDF and video showcase what AMRDEC has been able to do with the TC section in the rear and through modifications to the existing motor. They are just about done with their demonstration and validation of these changes. This will then transition to the OEM (Lockheed). Lockheed has a few things that it has been working on itself such as a slightly larger diameter motor (without impacting magazine size) which when combined with the AMRDEC validated TC will give them the 150 km maximum range.

By freeing up the front section of control surfaces they are likely opening themselves up to adding new guidance for future variants. There are some interesting programs that are aiming at fairly low costs when it comes to SAL and other targeting options and a future GMLRS variant could be a target for that tech insertion.

From Jane's (dated October 11, 2018):

Lockheed Martin plans in mid-2019 to conduct the first engineering development flights of its extended-range Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System (ER GMLRS), a company spokesperson told reporters on 10 October at the Association of the United States Army’s (AUSA's) annual conference.

ER GMLRS’ qualification flights are expected in 2020 and production could start in 2021, the spokesperson said.

The extended-range variant increased the motor size (with an increased diameter for more propellant volume), has a 15 km minimum range, 150 km max range, and a redesigned tail for manoeuvrability, the spokesperson said. The legacy GMLRS reaches out to 70 km.

Lockheed Martin officials declined to say how much ER GMRLS will grow in diameter, but said it will be slightly larger than the legacy 227 mm GMLRS, although still fit six per pod.

The ER GMLRS and GMLRS can be launched from the wheeled M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) or tracked M270A1 Multiple Launch Rocket System.

Both can use the same unitary warhead or the new M30A1 GMLRS Alternative Warhead (AW) that is replacing the Dual-Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions (DPICM). The spokesperson said Lockheed Martin is “leaving room towards the front for enhancements”, such as adding sensors and more lethal warheads.

An initial operational capability for ER GMLRS could be achieved around 2021 timeframe, the spokesperson said.



ArjunPandit wrote:are you aware if some of these things are also being tried in swades? Even the ATAGS itself was sort of record breaker. Next steps after the delivery of ATAGSs, K9, etc.


I am not sure what is happening on those systems. On the two US systems ( Palladin and the M777) they are going with a multi-pronged approach the elements of that together get the range out to 70 kms with the current (in development) capability and then eventually out to 130+ km with a new round they will begin R&D on by next year (either Ramjet powered (Boeing and Nammo have showcased their proposals) or an HVP round).

Broadly, the elements are :

1) Cannon upgrade - New 58 cal tube on the M109, and a new 55 cal tube on the M777A2. Both will also feature a re-designed chamber and breach to withstand the higher pressures.

2) Upgrade to the Round - New higher impulse Extended Range RAP round (XM1113) that can withstand the higher pressures and provide the extended range. Besides the XM1113 I believe only the Excalibur can, without modifications, achieve 60+ km ranges with the ERCA tube upgrades without requiring round modifications.

3) Develop new longer ranged rounds - Either explore SFRJ or work around the existing HVP rounds designed for the EMRG and already tried on the M777.

The new XM1113 round itself would get you 40 km range with the 39 caliber tube on the M109, but it is the combination of the longer tube (58 cal), redesigned breach and chamber and the XM1113 that has gotten them to demonstrate the 60+ km range as of now, and they intend on demonstrating 70 km range over the next few months at Yuma. Current plan is to complete the ERCA demonstration program by this time next year, and then seek authorization to begin production. They expect to field the first units with the modified M109's and M777's in about 2 years from receiving authorization so mid 2021 to mid 2022 time-frame.

Beyond this and into the medium term (2022-2025 time-frame) they want to work on the XM1155 Extended Range round and look to insert terminal guidance and targeting (looking at dual-mode RF/IR seekers) for anti IADS roles in areas where GPS may be denied. The SFRJ or the HVP may be the technologies of interest in this space as the range requirements are 130 km or beyond from ERCA guns.

Image
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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 22 Oct 2018 16:54

on ATAGS, we already have a larger chamber, however it is still 52 cal.

Applying 55/58 cal depends purely on IA's requirement. The US requirement is different as in, it requires such rounds to provide on demand CAS for troops in places like Afghanistion. A precision artillery round is cheaper than LGB droppped from an airplane. And ofcourse very high availability as it is a artillery system.

I can see requirements around deploying 58 cal ATAGS in HA area, where the higher cal and low air density will provide tremendous boost in range. However increase in range comes with accuracy issues, would make the rounds expensive if we add some precision kit.

All this is okay, but the million dollar question remains. We haven't fired 155MM round in anger since 2003 and doesn't look like we are going to anytime soon!

Will IA consider updating caliber? We have to wait and see.

Edit: ATAGS in current form must already be close to 60KM in high altitude test.

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Re: Artillery: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Oct 2018 17:00

I thought there was a fire assualt in 2016 where used 155mm against Pakis?


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