MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

ks_sachin
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Feb 2019 09:07

ramana wrote:
OK so its standard 45 tanks for Arjun regiments also.
So where are the rest of the tanks?
may be two more under strength regiments are in forming mode?



War reserves plus Armd School plus College of Combat perhaps...

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 19 Feb 2019 14:49

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:
OK so its standard 45 tanks for Arjun regiments also.
So where are the rest of the tanks?
may be two more under strength regiments are in forming mode?



War reserves plus Armd School plus College of Combat perhaps...



not perhaps but quite right.
There is large number of them with the armoured school.
I will dig up a video that showed a couple of them at the school.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby mody » 19 Feb 2019 14:55

IA tank regiment has 45 tanks. The rest are extras for training and reserves etc. The number of reserves required was reduced and hence the numbers reduced from 62 tanks to 59 per order.

Hopefully the MK2 will get a minimum order of 236 tanks or 4 regiments worth. 8 Arjun regiments stationed across the western border is a decent number. Though I would prefer to have a minimum of 10-12 regiments on the western border and minimum 2 regiments in Ladakh. They would be able to make mince meat out any Chinese tank on the plateau.

Hopefully with the MK3, they will be able to bring down the weight to 55-56 ton range, with a three man crew and we can get around 20 regiments to replace the T72s.
Wonder if the engine is still going to be the MTU 838 engine or the new MTU 893? don't know why we persist with the obsolete MTU-838 engine. The MTU-893 is lighter and has to configs 1,500 HP or a uprated 1,620 HP version. The price should not be much different either, considering that MYTU-893 has also been in production for 15 years.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Feb 2019 16:22

ramana wrote:118 Arjun Mk1A

I agree that we may not see a 1:1 replacement of T72 with Arjun, and this is a good start, but even then this program has been invested heavily in. Just curious what stops IA from inducting at least 500 Arjuns to make the project financially viable also (DRDO has told multiple times that anything less than 500 it is a dead loss). I understand logistics may be a challenge and terrain may not suit, but what stops us from a solid punch around the rajasthan axis.
To me that area seems critical for one arm of a pincer movement or a sledgehammer kind of strike to divert/distract forces that would have been used for defence of pakjab or south/karachi. If not even this, it frees T72 for ladakh sector.
If IA decides to stick to T90 type of medium-heavy, I am curious what stops MoD and DRDO to say lets write this off as a sunk investment and move on to an effort to make T72 version of Arjun. In such large programs there will be not so stellar programs like Akash, Pinaka. Move on to future rather than playing a catch up game and trial hoops. The way I look at with indigenization is there are successes and there are stepping stones to successes. There is no other outcome for a persevering civilization. The failed agni and GSLV tests seem to be a thing of past. The main thing is to move on and at the right time. In next 20 years time initial-mid T72 might need replacement. If we start now, we will have something that is amenable to IA.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 19 Feb 2019 16:32

Frankly I have never understood as to why Arjun cannot be used in Punjab. It's ground pressure is less than that of tin cans. It should be able to go where ever the tin cans can go.

Besides if the Indian army is planning to use the Pakistani bridge network. What is the assurance that they will all not be blown up either by IAF to prevent reinforcement by TSP. Or to prevent retreat by TSP.

In is situation any bridge left standing by IAF will be identified as the roads of Indian army advance and they will be blown up.

What I am trying to say is that IA needs to build up its bridging capacity to support Arjun wherever the army is expected to fight.

Not limit it to specific sectors. Giving the enemy options of dealing with us.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jaysimha » 19 Feb 2019 16:39

what is Shri Parrikar for LCA tejas,
Smt. Nirmala for MBT arjun.
.
I am sure things must have been ironed out at highest level.
.
else no reason to have defence corridor in TN ( read avadi)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Feb 2019 17:20

key points from the article shared earlier
1. It has a total of 14 upgrades over the existing version. These include an auto-target tracker, automatic gear system and improvement in suspension.
2. Only the missile firing ability remains to be validated, which will be done once the missiles, being developed by the DRDO, are ready. The DRDO missile programme has been a major success and firing of missile from a tank is being fine-tuned. Dont remember the smoke issue being resolved, but good that it has been
3. Last and most imp: The production of the new version, dubbed as Arjun ‘Mark 1-A’, is likely to commence within this year at the existing facility at Avadi in Tamil Nadu.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ParGha » 19 Feb 2019 17:21

Avadi HVF was setup in 1961 for strategic depth away from the Chinese bomber range (back then), as were many other defense factories in the South. The strategy was quite simple - low level technology (ex small arms) would be done in North India, medium tech in Central India, and high tech in South India.

By now tanks and IFVs should have evolved into medium tech and safety pulled up to Central India for mass industrial production, but sadly the Indian industrial capacity hasn’t evolved fast enough. Worse, the Chinese naval capacity has grown exponentially and may soon invalidate this 1960s strategy. The MOD should simply sign a ~500 Arjun order, commoditize the bloody thing and get it to Central India. If she wants to hand out candies for TN, let it be high tech facilities buried in the hills.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Feb 2019 17:23

Pratyush wrote:Frankly I have never understood as to why Arjun cannot be used in Punjab. It's ground pressure is less than that of tin cans. It should be able to go where ever the tin cans can go.

Besides if the Indian army is planning to use the Pakistani bridge network. What is the assurance that they will all not be blown up either by IAF to prevent reinforcement by TSP. Or to prevent retreat by TSP.

In is situation any bridge left standing by IAF will be identified as the roads of Indian army advance and they will be blown up.

What I am trying to say is that IA needs to build up its bridging capacity to support Arjun wherever the army is expected to fight.

Not limit it to specific sectors. Giving the enemy options of dealing with us.

the old argument of training and doctrine. Though I dont buy that. I think T90 is the suzeranity payments to keep russia on our side.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Feb 2019 17:26

ParGha wrote:Avadi HVF was setup in 1961 for strategic depth away from the Chinese bomber range (back then), as were many other defense factories in the South. The strategy was quite simple - low level technology (ex small arms) would be done in North India, medium tech in Central India, and high tech in South India.

By now tanks and IFVs should have evolved into medium tech and safety pulled up to Central India for mass industrial production, but sadly the Indian industrial capacity hasn’t evolved fast enough. Worse, the Chinese naval capacity has grown exponentially and may soon invalidate this 1960s strategy. The MOD should simply sign a ~500 Arjun order, commoditize the bloody thing and get it to Central India. If she wants to hand out candies for TN, let it be high tech facilities buried in the hills.

exactly the money stays in India. I dont think 500-1000 tanks will dent our defence budget even over a decade period and cause inflation. At the end of day a non trivial part will be in INR. However, 1000 tanks will be a huge headache for pakis. They are not slow either what was the first argument against heavy tanks. If we are planning to precipitate a collapse of napakistan more arjun tanks are absolutely required.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ashthor » 19 Feb 2019 18:16

So what will the UP defense corridors surprise us for?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jaysimha » 19 Feb 2019 20:36

ashthor wrote:So what will the UP defense corridors surprise us for?

Danush gun and other guns

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2019 21:22

ramana wrote:OK so its standard 45 tanks for Arjun regiments also.

Excellent find. I am thinking we should start a new thread with a reference library (just like the first post in Page 1 of the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A thread) on the info that you and ParGha Sir have provided on composition in an armoured regiment. I want to do one for the artillery thread as well - I believe there are three batteries (six guns each) in each regiment (so 18 in total). And the same for the mechanized infantry as well (which we can add into the Armoured Vehicles thread). A good reference info is nice for everyone and especially for newbies.

I would like to create two news threads;

- Armoured Corps: News & Discussion (this will encompass tanks + infantry combat vehicles + any other armoured vehicles)
- Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Right now we have two separate threads on armoured vehicles - one is this one and the other is an Armoured Vehicles thread.

Your Thoughts? If good, we can go ahead. Also, please advise on title thread as well. Let me know if you would like another title.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 19 Feb 2019 21:45

ParGha wrote:Avadi HVF was setup in 1961 for strategic depth away from the Chinese bomber range (back then), as were many other defense factories in the South. The strategy was quite simple - low level technology (ex small arms) would be done in North India, medium tech in Central India, and high tech in South India.

By now tanks and IFVs should have evolved into medium tech and safety pulled up to Central India for mass industrial production, but sadly the Indian industrial capacity hasn’t evolved fast enough. Worse, the Chinese naval capacity has grown exponentially and may soon invalidate this 1960s strategy. The MOD should simply sign a ~500 Arjun order, commoditize the bloody thing and get it to Central India. If she wants to hand out candies for TN, let it be high tech facilities buried in the hills.


let us not shiver over some SLCM attacks and make billion $$ decisions where its tough to get the industrial infra and metalworking traditions of coimbatore and salem and trichy dating back to chola and pallava days.

develop the kind of SRSAMs needed to swat down SLCMs like errant flies and the ASW hunters to search out and kill any sub that enters the IOR - why cant we have 100 LRMP like japan does.

in parallel develop our own heavy bomber and SSN strike force to POUND vital targets on enemy heartlands from all sides. there is no getting away by a meek defensive strategy hoping trouble will go away.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2019 21:53

ParGha wrote:Avadi HVF was setup in 1961 for strategic depth away from the Chinese bomber range (back then), as were many other defense factories in the South. The strategy was quite simple - low level technology (ex small arms) would be done in North India, medium tech in Central India, and high tech in South India.

By now tanks and IFVs should have evolved into medium tech and safety pulled up to Central India for mass industrial production, but sadly the Indian industrial capacity hasn’t evolved fast enough. Worse, the Chinese naval capacity has grown exponentially and may soon invalidate this 1960s strategy. The MOD should simply sign a ~500 Arjun order, commoditize the bloody thing and get it to Central India. If she wants to hand out candies for TN, let it be high tech facilities buried in the hills.


I hope you do realize that CVRDE is near Avadi, and that HVF/CVRDE benefit from the huge investment and skills involved in automotive manufacture in the TN industrial belt?

Yanking it out at this time is pointless.

Tanks and IFVs btw are anything but medium tech and are increasing in complexity all the time.
They need the best metallurgy for their armour (tough yet light alloys), complex engineering expertise in integration of thousands of components (CVRDE says this was their toughest issue with Arjun), subsystems are more and more sophisticated (gun control systems, complex sights, vetronics), weaponry requires extensive testing.. the list goes on and on and on..
With newer APS and other systems, the era of cheap tanks is all but over.
You are talking Hawker Hunters in an era where Jet Trainers field FBW.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2019 21:58

Studies by Hyundai, Nissan and Ford found Tamil Nadu the most cost-effective location for manufacturing cars. Hyundai made Chennai as the "Global Export Hub for Small cars". . During 2007-09, India's total export of automobiles was Rs.8861.33 Crores. Of this, Chennai alone exported Rs.4733 Crores (53.41%).
[HYUNDAI]
Caterpillar USA, Komatsu & Koebelco, Japan and Doosan South Korea chose Chennai to establish large earth moving equipment manufacturing plants.
Tamil Nadu has the largest auto components industry base. Currently, Tamil Nadu accounts for above 32% of India's production capacity. Automobile manufacturers operate "Just - in-Time" avoiding inventory costs.
Abundant availability of skilled manpower in Automobile Engineering - Largest turn-out of skilled manpower in India.


http://www.investingintamilnadu.com/tam ... obiles.php

Industries develop per existing capabilities and clusters of allied subystems. TN has all the potential to become India's land/armor systems hub.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 19 Feb 2019 22:01

and lets not forget Hosur cluster (ashok leyland) and its adjacent tracts of bomanhalli, attibele and jigani industrial area in KA which has many manufacturing industries. there are also automobile and machinery clusters @ bidadi and hoskote, west and east of blr.

none of that can be easily replicated, because they operate in mutually supporting ecosystems and lakhs of employees who have settled here.

MH and Guj have similar networks for pharma, chemicals, plastics, consumer durables. my wifes co is in blr but makes consumer durable in daman near surat.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 19 Feb 2019 22:10

Singha saar, yes. In fact I firmly believe IRDE needs to be relocated from Dehradun either to Mumbai-Pune or to Bangalore, or even Hyderabad.

They need to work closely with IISc, BEL, private partners etc and develop technologies, sights for these very vehicles and aerospace systems and they are off in Dehradun.

I can only imagine the troubles involved in finagling industry, vendor visits with the ever present threat of CAG uncle.

This visit to vendor in Coimbatore resulted in excess consumption of four teas and two packets of Marie biscuits weighing 40 gms without resulting in any deal being signed. Furthermore, audit notes that IRDE team paid for tea and biscuits out of own pocket using budget for developmental expenses, while DPP-2016 insists vendors must bear all expenses on no cost basis. Lab has not yet replied with answer to audit's query.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2019 23:00

Rakesh, Now that the Arjun Mk1A has been ordered, lets close this thread and consolidate discussion. We have too many threads and lose focus as it is.
Thanks for the proactive thinking.
ramana

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2019 23:06

ArjunPandit, Yes HVF and DRDO had asked for 500 Arjuns for Economic Order Quantity (EOQ)
The budget and the IA armored Corps were not supportive.

Also the LAHAT at normal engagement is working on the Arjun Mk1A.
its the IA minimum engagement distance that is not working.
That range is well below the gun range.
I don't know if it was just out in by some requirements person who thought a missile should mimic the gun?

One question for Pargha as he is knowledgeable.
The first version of Arjun that DRDO started out with was a 40-45 ton with 120 mm gun
So how did it become a Stalin tank?
Was IA not aware of all the changes that made it heavy and complex?
It takes two hands to clap and all that.....

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 20 Feb 2019 00:10

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