Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pandyan » 16 May 2019 19:52

rohitvats wrote:https://defence-blog.com/army/russia-looking-for-replacement-for-troubled-pantsir-air-defense-system.html
Currently, attempts are being made to develop for Russian Air Force new advanced version, called the Pantsir-SM, with latest electronics, radar, and new missiles. A new project is being funded by selling the existing version of “troubled” air defense systems abroad at a low price.


With respect to the bolder part immediately above, guess, they wanted Indians to be the 'Bakra'.

:shock:
This explains what happened to this:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/russia-to-bag-1-5-billion-deal-for-air-defence-missiles/articleshow/66701262.cms
ET has learnt that the Russian Igla-S system has been confirmed as the lowest bidder for a mega deal to procure shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles for the Indian Army in a meeting held on Monday. The Russian bid for $1.5 billion considerably undercut offers by France and Sweden and is believed to be even lower than the benchmark price of $2 billion that was estimated by the Indian side.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 16 May 2019 20:16

KaranM, By now India has these systems for while. Has IA asked DRDO to take a look at what ails them or is it stiff upper lip 'khoi hain' bash on regardless?
Late Manohar Parrikar was right about the Defence Procurement system being the most scam ridden out fit and its the bravery of the Indian soldiers that save us despite duds that are bought after extensive trials and waivers..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 16 May 2019 20:46

pandyan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:https://defence-blog.com/army/russia-looking-for-replacement-for-troubled-pantsir-air-defense-system.html


With respect to the bolder part immediately above, guess, they wanted Indians to be the 'Bakra'.

:shock:
This explains what happened to this:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/russia-to-bag-1-5-billion-deal-for-air-defence-missiles/articleshow/66701262.cms
ET has learnt that the Russian Igla-S system has been confirmed as the lowest bidder for a mega deal to procure shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles for the Indian Army in a meeting held on Monday. The Russian bid for $1.5 billion considerably undercut offers by France and Sweden and is believed to be even lower than the benchmark price of $2 billion that was estimated by the Indian side.


Wow !!.. sell some junk stuff to pay for a new one !! .. seriously

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Pratyush » 16 May 2019 21:01

Cain Marko wrote:I think the s400 will truly be a game changer....
Snip

...



I hope that they are test the way a DRDO developed missile is tested.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 16 May 2019 21:53

so the pantsyr which is supposed to the SRSAM bubble for the bigger missile of S400 and radars is a dud.
not a promising start.

s400 will be of zero use in hot peace, you really think we will be firing SAMs 200km into TSP?

a combo of akash + MRSAM will be a lot more deadly.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 16 May 2019 23:03

^^^ I don't think this current CIWS/SPAAG deal was related to that. Why ? Because this was for Army (to protect the formations from Helo / UAV threats) and not for Air Force.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Zynda » 16 May 2019 23:14

After Big S-400 Deal, Russia ‘Wins’ Indian Army VSHORADS Missile Contest

Posting excerpts
Army sources say while all three systems have had performance or technical compliance niggles since field evaluations began in 2012, the Russian Igla-S had the most significant issues: firing was deemed not successful during field trials, target acquisition continuously failed, and, to top it all, the Igla-S didn’t have a state-of-the-art sight during trials. With today’s declaration of a Russian win, the Indian MoD has signaled that the issues were either addressed, or waivers granted.


Sources tell Livefist that Russia tried to push the 9K333 Verba system into the contest to replace of the Igla-S principally because of the latter’s performance issues in around 2016. However, replacing a product mid-course under an unusually strict set of targets charted out in the RfP was simply not an option, and would have meant an instant reboot to the contest. Russia was told the Verba couldn’t come anywhere near the race, and the VSHORADS contest would only test the Igla-S.


Each one of the contenders has had compliance issues, though Russia’s refusal to even appear for certain trial rounds during the contest had the other two competitors send up periodic flares. Again, it remains to be seen how these were addressed — or if they were at all. Livefist has learnt that messages of protest had been conveyed as recently as weeks ago.


SA-25 VERBA 9K333
According engineer of KBM, theVerba system significantly improves upon the accuracy and performance of the earlier 9K338 Igla-S (SA-24 Grouse) MANPADS, primarily through the integration of a new multispectral optical seeker, which uses three sensors - ultraviolet, near-infrared, and mid-infrared - as opposed to the dual-waveband infrared used in the Igla-S system.


Really hope this deal gets revisited after next week by NM or whomever the new DefMin will be. It will take time but we should put Verba (if desired by IA) through its paces as well...and in certain situations like above, the L1 lowest cost bidder system should be chucked for a system which is slightly more competent in meeting more tech parameters.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 16 May 2019 23:44

Karan M wrote:Yes!!!! I had flagged this very point.

Karan M wrote:
- Indian Army AD needs to drastically improve. Its a real issue that the PAF PGMs were able to come close to important formation HQs without being intercepted, the Akash order/deliveries for IA, MRSAM orders need to be accelerate.


Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the AF to defend the army bases against aerial threats within the Indian airspace (as opposed to air defence for the fighting formations that's legitimately IA's responsibility) ? Isn't it just another VA/VP as far as planning goes ?

Also, would the IA's air defence assets be integrated with IAF's integrated air defence systems ? Otherwise, there'd be serious communication issues in responding to dynamic situations similar to what happened on Feb 27 morning.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby RKumar » 17 May 2019 00:57

Akaash missile will be deployed and activated on the border for active duty. Welcome PAF, we are ready!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 02:51

ramana wrote:KaranM, By now India has these systems for while. Has IA asked DRDO to take a look at what ails them or is it stiff upper lip 'khoi hain' bash on regardless?
Late Manohar Parrikar was right about the Defence Procurement system being the most scam ridden out fit and its the bravery of the Indian soldiers that save us despite duds that are bought after extensive trials and waivers..


No indication whatsoever that DRDO, Pvt sector anyone else has been asked to tinker around with Tunguska internals.
Indicates a possibility that Tunguska works - imperfectly (can't handle certain classes of targets, manage movement etc or whatever niggles) but basically works. I have seen grouses against Smerch, T-90, INVAR and all other kit which were gradually rectified or workarounds sought. Nothing explicit against Tunguska beyond what've discussed on the forum.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 02:56

srin wrote:Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the AF to defend the army bases against aerial threats within the Indian airspace (as opposed to air defence for the fighting formations that's legitimately IA's responsibility) ? Isn't it just another VA/VP as far as planning goes ?

Also, would the IA's air defence assets be integrated with IAF's integrated air defence systems ? Otherwise, there'd be serious communication issues in responding to dynamic situations similar to what happened on Feb 27 morning.


IAF AD systems can't handle all VA/VPs. IA owns responsibility for its assets as well, given its holdings.

IA is getting its own C3I system which will talk to both Navy and AF one.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 02:58

Singha wrote:so the pantsyr which is supposed to the SRSAM bubble for the bigger missile of S400 and radars is a dud.
not a promising start.

[b]s400 will be of zero use in hot peace, you really think we will be firing SAMs 200km into TSP?[/b]

a combo of akash + MRSAM will be a lot more deadly.


400km not just 200km.
One primary aim is to use S-400 to force PAF AEW&CS far away from the border making them next to useless in terms of looking into India.
With the SAM guided in all the way, chances of civilian targets being hit would be low and the primary target the Erieye would be easily confirmed via flight path & RF emission.
Also use it to back up IAF interceptors (as on Feb 27th issue against receding PAF targets) either by intercepting beforehand or by knocking them down as they run away, without exposing our fighters to ambush.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 03:00

This just goes to show how incompetent our process oriented guys are. So you wont allow a better product to come in because it vitiates the process, and you select the inferior product by giving waivers. Words fail me about the babu "logic" and how vendors must be scratching their head at our wanton stupidity and gaming away.

Zynda wrote:After Big S-400 Deal, Russia ‘Wins’ Indian Army VSHORADS Missile Contest

Posting excerpts
Army sources say while all three systems have had performance or technical compliance niggles since field evaluations began in 2012, the Russian Igla-S had the most significant issues: firing was deemed not successful during field trials, target acquisition continuously failed, and, to top it all, the Igla-S didn’t have a state-of-the-art sight during trials. With today’s declaration of a Russian win, the Indian MoD has signaled that the issues were either addressed, or waivers granted.


Sources tell Livefist that Russia tried to push the 9K333 Verba system into the contest to replace of the Igla-S principally because of the latter’s performance issues in around 2016. However, replacing a product mid-course under an unusually strict set of targets charted out in the RfP was simply not an option, and would have meant an instant reboot to the contest. Russia was told the Verba couldn’t come anywhere near the race, and the VSHORADS contest would only test the Igla-S.


Each one of the contenders has had compliance issues, though Russia’s refusal to even appear for certain trial rounds during the contest had the other two competitors send up periodic flares. Again, it remains to be seen how these were addressed — or if they were at all. Livefist has learnt that messages of protest had been conveyed as recently as weeks ago.


SA-25 VERBA 9K333
According engineer of KBM, theVerba system significantly improves upon the accuracy and performance of the earlier 9K338 Igla-S (SA-24 Grouse) MANPADS, primarily through the integration of a new multispectral optical seeker, which uses three sensors - ultraviolet, near-infrared, and mid-infrared - as opposed to the dual-waveband infrared used in the Igla-S system.


Really hope this deal gets revisited after next week by NM or whomever the new DefMin will be. It will take time but we should put Verba (if desired by IA) through its paces as well...and in certain situations like above, the L1 lowest cost bidder system should be chucked for a system which is slightly more competent in meeting more tech parameters.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 03:22

Karan M wrote:
ramana wrote:KaranM, By now India has these systems for while. Has IA asked DRDO to take a look at what ails them or is it stiff upper lip 'khoi hain' bash on regardless?
Late Manohar Parrikar was right about the Defence Procurement system being the most scam ridden out fit and its the bravery of the Indian soldiers that save us despite duds that are bought after extensive trials and waivers..


No indication whatsoever that DRDO, Pvt sector anyone else has been asked to tinker around with Tunguska internals.
Indicates a possibility that Tunguska works - imperfectly (can't handle certain classes of targets, manage movement etc or whatever niggles) but basically works. I have seen grouses against Smerch, T-90, INVAR and all other kit which were gradually rectified or workarounds sought. Nothing explicit against Tunguska beyond what've discussed on the forum.


Repair on Tunguska (repair of failed modules, not upgrades) is partly being done by these guys.
https://www.krasnydefencetechnologies.c ... s_division

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 03:46

I'll post an analysis of BiHo vs Tunguska later, but IMHO - we give up some possible advantages (all-weather radar performance) vs much more operational flexibility. BiHo setup is oriented around optical capability & fire and forget MANPADs vs guide in all the way, Tunguska SAMs. BiHo is more survivable and deadly in that its firing mechanism is more stealthy (at best you start dumping chaff & flares, but you can't try and break the missile lock by bombing the BiHo itself as its MANPADS are IR guided Chirons). Shame we couldn't plan ahead and make our own but take what is available and run with it.

IA AAD is re-inventing itself like a Phoenix from the ashes. From reliance on nearly completely obsolescent equipment holdings, its gradually getting new kit and much better stuff, but long way to go.

First, what does it have.
Layered defense:
VA/VP with AA Guns - L70 static guided by Flycatcher radar (remains very potent) cued by 2D Reporter radars
Mobile defence provided by Schilka & 2-barrel ZSUs
Improvement:
*It has some 80 radars on order from DRDO/BEL (3D TCR and surveillance) complementing its substantial orders of Super Fledermaus, Reporter (3D TCR) and Flycatcher fire control systems. Deliveries of ~40-50 radars already done.
*The local Atulya cleared DRDO trials in 2018, so it will be headed for user trials soon enough, replacing the older Reporters once it clears them. 66 Israeli SkyCaptures have been ordered as well. These FCRs cue the L70s.
*BEL also received orders to upgrade 200 L-70s. Deliveries have started. Ammunition remains a huge challenge, OFB can't make it, what it did, blew up.

Gun situation also needs to be resolved. The L70 is a 1951 design and even with upgrades, can only last so long.

SAMs: Obsolete holdings include: 4x regiments of SA-6 Kvadrat, Igla-1M MANPADS holdings, Strella-10M, SA-8 SAMs and of course, 70 odd Tunguskas. I still think all these should be upgraded. As many as possible anyhow with rationalized holdings (centralize ammo/serviceable units). Against both PAF/PRC they will be deadly.

Improvement:
*QRSAM development will cover Akash's one perceived issue that it cant cover strike corps on the move etc. Development seems to be back on track.
*4x Akash regiments will provide substantial protection for deployed formations, 2 to be ordered of Mk1S variant (CCS approval given). 2 in delivery.
*48x Schilkas are being upgraded by BEL (of 90 total). Deliveries underway.
*MRSAM (i.e. Barak-8) is also headed IA way, with 40 firing units, probably launchers on order.

So the BiHo will come as a welcome shot in the arm.

MANPADS situation needs to be resolved. We are behind even PA, where more modern MANPADS (including Mistral, RBS-70) have been proliferated down to all formations but in ours, restricted holdings are available only with AAD and select formations of Igla1M class.

C3I situation is also sub-optimal. In development since 2008 or even earlier. ADCRS (Akash Teer) at BEL in test-bed form, yet to be mass deployed. Will coordinate all CADA assets and link them to IAF, Navy etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 17 May 2019 09:54

Pratyush wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:I think the s400 will truly be a game changer....
Snip

...



I hope that they are test the way a DRDO developed missile is tested.

I think the s400 has been on offer for years possibly last entire decade and India has always looked the other way until it felt the system is mature enough. No wonder the Chinese and Turks and even Saudis are interested. My guess is we'll see a similar approach with the pakfa as well

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 14:21


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 17 May 2019 14:50

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1129311458741903360
JUST IN: Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) fired from @IndianNavy destroyers INS Kochi & INS Chennai in first ‘cooperative engagement’ test.

Image
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 17 May 2019 14:54

Karan any update of the Akash production? 7 squadrons of MK1 for IAF were approved by CCS a long time ago, but there were reports of price negotiation between MoD and BEL/BDL. Also, have orders for any MK1S systems been placed as yet?
The first 8 squadrons of MK1 are already operational. The production of second batch of 7 squadrons should have been well underway by now and deployment on the western border should have started, with say an additional 8 squadrons of MK1S and 9 squadrons of MRSAM being ordered as well. The upgraded Pichora SAMS should be redeployed to less critical installations down south, which currently has partial AD cover only.

The QRSAMs should also cover all of the major military installations, including IAF and IA. It can provide protection against cruise missiles as well as PGMs like H400 and RAAD.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 15:14

They are waiting for next govt to fund, post elections.

In Induction/funded/ordered:
8x Squadrons Akash Mk1 for IAF
2x regiments for IA
9x MRSAMs for IAF
3x Spyders for IAF
5x S-400 for IAF
7x LRSAM for Navy
48x Shilka upgrades IA (out of 90 held)
200x L-70 Upgrades IA (out of 1000 held)
Separate radar orders are not included but are substantial as well.

DAC approval, price negotiation but orders yet to be placed
7x Squadrons Akash Mk1 for IAF
2x regiments Akash Mk1S for IA
670x ZSU-23-2 Upgrades from Punj Lloyd for IA
2x XRSAM (BMD) for 2x metros (initial setup completed for 2x cities)

Ordered/in development but yet to be delivered (development portion with DRDO funded, $2.5Bn order)
40x MRSAM launchers for IA

Trial stage, winner yet to be announced/orders yet to be placed
MANPADS (5000 missiles, 800 launchers) for IA/IAF
SPAAG for IA (103 units) to supplement Tunguska units and older Shilkas

In development/yet to be ordered
QRSAM for IA/AF (will replace SA-8 in service with both arms and also Kvadrat with Army)
SRSAM for IN (will replace Barak-1)
8x SA-3 squadron upgrades

RFI stage
61x CIWS flights for IAF

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 17 May 2019 16:40

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1129311458741903360
JUST IN: Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MRSAM) fired from @IndianNavy destroyers INS Kochi & INS Chennai in first ‘cooperative engagement’ test.


Wait a second - when did the LRSAM get downgraded to MRSAM ? :shock:

Per my understanding, the Barak-8 was officially LRSAM for the Navy and MRSAM for the AF (because IAF's LRSAM is S-400). Now that IN's version is also MRSAM, are we going to see a true LRSAM for the Navy too ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 16:45

Add a booster.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 17 May 2019 19:08

Some pointers on Indian AD assets. Plus, correction on some points mentioned by Karan M earlier:

(1) Most numerous AD missile assets are with IAF. Of these, SA-3 are used for AD of IAF bases and important cities. Other short-range SAMs are used for Vulnerable Areas/Vulnerable Points.

(2) Indian Army has 2 x SA-6 Missile Groups (not 04). True, these are quite big in size (reflected in size of Akash SAM Regiments as well). Used to be held by Strike Corps but from what I know, at least one for sure, has been moved to a Pivot Corps in desert.

(3) L-70 equipped AD Regiments form the biggest component of the AD Regiment. And while gun-based modern AD solution will continue to remain the largest component, number of such gun based regiments will go down as missile based AD assets proliferate. Remember, the two Akash Regiments converted from their earlier L-70 role.


They're structured as follows:

- Unit: 04 x batteries
- Battery: 06 gun divided into 2 x Troops of 03 guns each
- Each troop (03 guns) is guided by a Fire Control Radar.
- Which is either Fledermaus or Flycatcher. Basis my personal interaction with AD chaps, they swear by the Flycatcher radar; consider it almost impossible to jam.

- In this space, older Fledermaus gave way to Flycatcher. And now it seems, Flycatcher will give way to 66 x Israeli Skycapture radars, followed by DRDO Atulya radars.

* Each L-70 Regiment requires 08 FCR and assuming about 20 such regiments, we're talking about 160+ such radars being required. i remember reading somewhere that we had imported+built 200+ Flycatcher radars.

(3) ZSU-23-2 are both static and mobile.

(4) AD Regiment has about 7-8 different types of AD regiments under it, which are either have a single type of equipment or mix-and-match of multiple type.

For example,
- Light SP AD Regiment: ZSU-23-2 mounted on trucks.
- Light SP AD (Composite) Regiment: ZSU-23-3 + MANPADS.

(5) AD Brigades are held at three levels (a) Those directly under Command HQ (2) Under Corps HQ (3) Under Division HQ

Last type are the AD Brigades organic to Armored Divisions. These are mix of missile and gun based SP AD Assets. ZSU-23-4 Shilka, Tungushka and SA-10 are some of the examples.

(6) 3D Tactical Control Radar has already entered with some AD Regiments. Provides the long range surveillance net and control structure to each AD Regiment.

(7) BTW, we've only single regiment of Tungushka. This means 24 systems and some change. Not 70.

(8) Akash Regiments have all been raised with Pivot Corps. First one was raised under Jalandhar based 11 Corps and second one has been raised under Bhatinda based 10 Corps.

(9) IA AD net talks to IACCS net.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 17 May 2019 23:32

rohitvats wrote:Some pointers on Indian AD assets. Plus, correction on some points mentioned by Karan M earlier:

(1) Most numerous AD missile assets are with IAF. Of these, SA-3 are used for AD of IAF bases and important cities. Other short-range SAMs are used for Vulnerable Areas/Vulnerable Points.


The IAF uses layered defense for its AFB - so its SA-3+ SA-8 + MANPADS + QRA fighters/ base for the bigger ones, and elsewhere, individual detachments (as low as just MANPADS). Now with new radars, missiles, their footprint is increasing (MRSAM and S-400 especially) but till they start coming in numbers, what we are seeing is 1-to-1 replacement of SA-3 flights/batteries with Akash. Similarly, we need a QRSAM to start coming in to replace the SA-8s.

(2) Indian Army has 2 x SA-6 Missile Groups (not 04). True, these are quite big in size (reflected in size of Akash SAM Regiments as well). Used to be held by Strike Corps but from what I know, at least one for sure, has been moved to a Pivot Corps in desert.


A SA-6 group could more than a regiment. I always took the 4x Akash regiment orders = 2x SA-6 Missile groups. Either that, or the SA-6 group = regiment, and the new QRSAM orders (IA nomenclature, which DRDO followed, but their project is separate) for 2x regiments were to replace the Akash Mk1s because the IA wanted more mobile systems. Then of course, the 2x new Akash Mk1S were ordered/cleared in place of this QRSAM order, which have to have seekers, and more compact systems for mobility per reports (new radars would be a big surprise!). The DRDO QRSAM would then either supplant the Akash Mk1S, or actually complement it and become the de-facto standard SAM for IA, backed up by MRSAM/Akash Mk1/S in semi-static role.

In the meantime, we continue to keep the SA-6 in service.
https://sputniknews.com/military/201701 ... at-system/

I don't remember if I had ever dug out the SA-6 launchers in service but the FAS guys had 180 launchers, which would tie in with 4x Regiments = 2x groups, with each regiment at around 48 launchers.

So, we are adding 2x more Akash regiments, followed by QRSAM which should be the real replacement for the SA-6, and MRSAM - I am not sure about the mobility aspects of the MRSAM which should be quite similar to Akash Mk1, which would also restrict it to semi-static roles not playing racecar over sand-dunes with the crazy guys in the Strike Corps.

(3) L-70 equipped AD Regiments form the biggest component of the AD Regiment. And while gun-based modern AD solution will continue to remain the largest component, number of such gun based regiments will go down as missile based AD assets proliferate. Remember, the two Akash Regiments converted from their earlier L-70 role.


It makes ample sense why the L-70 guys converted from L-70 role and not SA-6, because ultimately the SA-6 units will either be replaced by Akash Mk1S or even QRSAM.

They're structured as follows:

- Unit: 04 x batteries
- Battery: 06 gun divided into 2 x Troops of 03 guns each
- Each troop (03 guns) is guided by a Fire Control Radar.
- Which is either Fledermaus or Flycatcher. Basis my personal interaction with AD chaps, they swear by the Flycatcher radar; consider it almost impossible to jam.

- In this space, older Fledermaus gave way to Flycatcher. And now it seems, Flycatcher will give way to 66 x Israeli Skycapture radars, followed by DRDO Atulya radars.


The large number of guns would reduce with better technologies today, but who knows IA may prefer to keep its original system.
Flycatcher is Ku-Ka band. Very few jammers available in Ka band. When we developed our Trishul system, we had a tough time procuring the RF source for the system as well.
Gun replacements could be Oerlikons/Revolvers or who knows, even DEWs. Guns are certainly cheaper than missiles though.

* Each L-70 Regiment requires 08 FCR and assuming about 20 such regiments, we're talking about 160+ such radars being required. i remember reading somewhere that we had imported+built 200+ Flycatcher radars.


A few points here. The business case for Atulya/derivatives is ~150 radars apart from the 66 SkyCapture ordered. Also don't forget the Reporter units, only ~30 3D TCR have been ordered, and some 20 odd LLLWRs with another 30 odd indented. Point being radar orders are so far a drop in the ocean and existing holdings of radars and units are also by no means sufficient for AD's expanded roles.

(3) ZSU-23-2 are both static and mobile.

(4) AD Regiment has about 7-8 different types of AD regiments under it, which are either have a single type of equipment or mix-and-match of multiple type.

For example,
- Light SP AD Regiment: ZSU-23-2 mounted on trucks.
- Light SP AD (Composite) Regiment: ZSU-23-3 + MANPADS.

(5) AD Brigades are held at three levels (a) Those directly under Command HQ (2) Under Corps HQ (3) Under Division HQ

Last type are the AD Brigades organic to Armored Divisions. These are mix of missile and gun based SP AD Assets. ZSU-23-4 Shilka, Tungushka and SA-10 are some of the examples.

(6) 3D Tactical Control Radar has already entered with some AD Regiments. Provides the long range surveillance net and control structure to each AD Regiment.


3D TCR are all delivered as have been some 15 Bharani. IA also has a new indent out for an advanced follow on to Bharani, derived from the Aslesha which should be in deliveries soon.
3D TCR extends out to 90 km, but the MRSAM radar (IAF std.) will be double that and the 3D CAR in the Akash groups extends out to 120-150km. I suspect they will be the mobile nodes for many IA units, or IA may order newer Ashwini LLR based units as well to supplement the 3D TCR. Then there is also the brand new AD-TCR, which is an AESA based 3D TCR which is ready for user trials.

(7) BTW, we've only single regiment of Tungushka. This means 24 systems and some change. Not 70.


The number 70 comes from here:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... pdate.html
https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-i ... ms-1003342

I didn't dig too much into Tunguska orders to be honest, but there are 2 orders I remember. One was for 28 units and another follow on one. Could be the entire number of vehicles of all types is 70.

(8) Akash Regiments have all been raised with Pivot Corps. First one was raised under Jalandhar based 11 Corps and second one has been raised under Bhatinda based 10 Corps.


Again, this indicates the Akash are being kept for the semi-static ones and we haven't phased out the SA-6 Kvadrat. This indicates either the Mk1S regiments will start replacing the SA-6s OR the QRSAM. The Mk1S just goes to other pivot corps.

(9) IA AD net talks to IACCS net.


This is Akash Teer aka ADC&RS. The 2018 BEL MD interview indicates its finally under delivery. Since BEL is doing both ADC&RS plus IACCS that's a good thing. Its also meant to talk to Triguna, the IN AD C3I network for their bases.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 00:28

And here is something on the scale of the BiHo orders:

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24016 ... ian_Trials

A South Korean publication, Joongang Daily reported last week that the bidding was first officially announced in 2013, and the candidate weapons were evaluated throughout 2015 and tested in 2017. The contract involves exporting 104 Biho systems, 97 ammunition carriers, 39 command vehicles, 4,928 missiles and 172,260 rounds of ammunition, bringing the contract’s total value to 3 trillion won ($2.66 billion).


The K30 Biho was judged the most capable of dual purpose use as an anti-missile and anti-aircraft defense system, the publication said quoting unnamed sources in the Korean government.


Again, it has issues, it can't detect very small UAVs for instance, but better to pick what's available which addresses >90% of our immediate requirements and induct it in this case, rather than waiting for unobtainium. If the Koreans are not BS'ing, then it can address missiles as well. Which is of particular relevance if it includes ATGMs fired by Pak choppers at our MBTs for instance.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 00:46

I think we definitely may have more than 1 regiment of Tunguska in service and your data is incorrect. Either that, or its a larger group than a standard regiment. Or India bought penny packets of the system in different batches to build up a single regiment, which seems very unlikely.

SIPRI confirms multiple Tunguska orders, so yes, the numbers are very likely not 24 units alone.

First order:
24 units (could be as high as 50), 400 missiles, in 1996

Second order:
14 units, 2001, 225 missiles.

Third order:
28 units, 2005 (that's the order mentioned in the DNA report above), 450 missiles.


Total: 70 units (could be as high as 96)

The DNA report notes:
https://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-i ... ms-1003342
The four batteries of 'Tunguska-'M1 gun-missile air defence complexes are in addition to the 60 older versions of Tunguska and two batteries (12 units) of the new complexes that are already in India's possession.

So, 24+12+60 = 96

The Defense Aerospace report notes:

In December 2005, the Indian Ministry of Defence signed a contract worth $400 million for procurement of 24 additional 2S6M1 systems. These two orders apparently represent the first export sales of the 2S6 since India's initial purchase of 54 systems in 1992.


Total: 78

*Even considering the internet echo chamber effect* - each source cites each other in perpetuity, there were clearly 2 sets of Tunguska orders at the minimum implying more than 24 units ordered.

The first Tunguska units were inducted in 514 AD Regiment by 2000 itself.
https://www.rediff.com/news/2000/jan/26akd.htm

By 2004, we were negotiating for an improved version as well.
https://mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/ ... sh2004.pdf

Confirmation of deal in 2005. Numbers not specified.
https://www.rediff.com/news/2005/dec/20missile.htm

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 18 May 2019 14:14

Karan M -

(1) IAF AD Assets:

- The IAF AD assets are organized primarily around the Base Defense Zone (BDZ) concept. So, you've SA-3 as the main SAM, followed by SA-10 and MANPADS. SPYDER has now been added to the matrix, to be followed by QRSAM.

*** One more point, the concept of BDZ has mentioned in a seminal article by Sanjay Badri Maharaj on Indian ADGES is no longer in play. It has been modified basis evolution in nature of threat.

- BTW, L-70 based AD Regiments are also tasked for AD of IAF Air Bases. There are dedicated L-70 Regiments for such tasks within the army.

- You're right that with induction of MR-SAM, the AD bubble will increase, which was not there earlier. With SA-3 based AD net, the radius was limited to 20-25 km from the base. Now, the enemy fighters will be tackled much earlier.

(2) Indian Army SA-6 Group:

- It is a single entity but very large in size.

- Let me solve the number quandary for you regarding size of SA-6 Group, which is also followed by new Akash Regiments.

Remember, long time back there was a debate on BRF about 4 x Akash Missile Launchers+1 x Rajendra FCR being mentioned as a Troop? I was then of the opinion that this is not possible because this should ideally be the size of a battery. Same as size of a Flight in case of IAF squadron.

Well, guess what? I was wrong. It is a troop indeed.

Akash Regiment - 06 Batteries (humongous!)

- Each battery: 2 x Troops.
- Troop: 4 x Launchers + 1 x Rajendra FCR

So, each battery has 08 x Launchers and 2 x Rajendra FCR
The entire regiment has 48 launchers, 12 Rajendra FCR and 1 x 3D CAR.
Also, don't rule out the possibility of 2 x 3D CAR per regiment.

The above size gives the ability for a single Regiment to provide AD bubble over a very large territory.

(3) QRSAM -

QRSAM came into being because Akash could not fulfill the mobility requirement. And the reality is that IA was asked to induct 2 x Akash Regiments as QRSAM development takes place. Which actually is a good thing. Because not formation in Indian Army is going to cover 25 km/day. Also, presence of Akash Missile Regiments gives AD bubble where none exists as of now. I would welcome more than 2 x regiments of new versions of Akash Missile, so that other Pivot Corps can also have SAM based AD assets.

As for QRSAM, by the looks of it, they will first go to the three Strike Corps, as well as the Desert Corps.

(4) Radar Orders:

- You need to look at radar orders from ORBAT perspective.
- For example, 3D TCR is going to AD Regiments to provide them with their own surveillance capability. I won't be surprised if we see an order for ~100 of these/these type. Some units may have a mix of 3D TCR and LLLWR. Where LLLWR is used to cover gaps and look out for low flying fighters.
- As are Skycapture system, to be followed by our own Atulya, they're again all meant for L-70 Regiments.
- You're right about AD assets being inadequate. I know for a fact that AD Regiment is set for big time expansion with new raising.

(5) Tungushka -

- If you search for Tungushka pictures of Indian Army, you'll see images from RD Parade and Army Day Parade.
- Here's what common to all those pictures:
(a) They all sport the formation sign of same armored division - 31st Armored Division (White tiger on yellow background)
(b) All of them have same tactical number - 334 (indicating its the same regiment)
(c) In some pictures, you can see the typical vehicle number seen on defense vehicle. Starts with UP Arrow, followed by years in which it was inducted. In case of Tunguska, all pictures that I saw have UP ARROW followed by 96, 97 and 99, means, that platform was inducted in these years. Which ties in with raising of 514 AD (SP) Regiment.

I'll attach some images in subsequent post as reference.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 18 May 2019 14:32

I'd be glad to be proved wrong on this Tungushka issue but whatever evidence I've seen, speaks otherwise:

(1) Inducted in 1996, White Tiger of Rewa (formation sigh of 31st Armored Division), 334 TAC Number

Image

(2) Same as above but inducted in 1999:

Image

(3) Same as above

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 14:36

Rohit, we had been discussing the mindboggling numbers on the Akash troop/regiment earlier. Check this out.

Image

Will do a MRSAM compare later.

Now 2x more of the above are to be added in Mk1S version. I hope it comes fast, because huge number of industries are waiting for the order and it will stabilize seeker production (very useful for QRSAM and Astra too!).

About radars, I think the 3D TCR is going to stop at 29 units and production will switch to ADTCR. ADTCR is the follow on to 3D TCR with AESA antenna. It will be more reliable.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 14:41

The only way the Tunguska information makes sense to stay within the logic that the IA is not doing some super special secret maskirovska and hiding formations is that the reported numbers are all fairly wrong or were overestimates.

In short, we bought far fewer number of Tunguskas and gradually - in 2 or 3 sets of purchases, built up a regiments worth.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 14:46

That Akash regiment above has multiple troops which are fairly autonomous as each carries its own 3D CAR. If 2 HQ units are purchased for each regiment, then each can control upto 3 Troops. In short this Akash regiment is a pretty dangerous beast, and DRDO should seek to keep it relevant going forward by adding even longer ranged missiles (pssst.. dont tell the Israelis).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 18 May 2019 14:46

Two things are wrong above - no of batteries are 06, so total number of troops are 12. And it shows 3D-CAR at Troop level, which is not the case. However, as I said, I won't be surprised if there are 2 x 3D-CAR to have two independent sub-groups with 2 x Batteries (04 Troops) each.

**Correction made - 06 batteries and 12 Troops (earlier I'd mistakenly written as 04 batteries and 08 troops)
Last edited by rohitvats on 18 May 2019 15:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 15:02

Are you sure IA did not purchase 3D CAR at Troop level? Because there is this bit of intriguing information.
https://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... chers.html

HAPPY HOURS: 2,500 missiles, 112 launchers, 28 MPARs & 100 3-D CARs | Massive Akash SAM system orders boost to desi pride, industries | 1st Sqn in June & 2nd in Oct 2012 | DRDO mum on Mk-II


MPAR = Rajendra

Now, lets work it out backwards. IAF ordered 8 squadrons, so thats 8x 3D CARs and 16x MPARs and 64 launchers. We also know IAF ordered for a total of 37 Rohinis (their version of 3D CAR) and that likely included the above Akash specific units. So, that leaves us 63x 3D CARs, 12x MPARs, 48x launchers to be split across 2 regiments. Lets take the MPARs first, that's 6x MPAR (i.e. 6 troops) and the 48x launchers match up. Now lets look at above picture, 16x 3D CARs for 2x regiments. Leaves us with 47 units, and we know 29x 3D TCR were ordered (these are compact versions of 3D CAR). 18x units are left, and I suspect they could be AD-TCR.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 15:22

See this as well.
https://m.economictimes.com/articleshow/5579703.cms

New Delhi: India plans to progressively base six surface-toair Akash missile squadrons in the North-East to counter the threat posed by Chinese fighters, helicopters and drones in the region.

Sources say IAF will get eight Akash tactical air defence squadrons by 2015, with the first one becoming operational by 2011 itself, at a cost of over Rs 6,100 crore. Every squadron will have two 'flights' of four Akash launchers each.

Moreover, the Army is now poised to order two Akash regiments, with six firing batteries each, for around Rs 4,000 crore.


With an effective interception range of 25 km, the DRDO-developed Akash system with supersonic missiles and a network of radars is designed to neutralize multiple aerial targets attacking from several directions simultaneously in all-weather conditions. With an 88 per cent "kill probability", it can even take on sub-sonic cruise missiles.

The plan to base Akash squadrons in North-East constitutes yet another step to counter China's massive buildup of military infrastructure all along the unresolved 4,057-km Line of Actual Control (LAC). Though it woke up quite late, India is now fastracking measures like raising of two new specialized infantry mountain divisions and an artillery brigade for Arunachal Pradesh and basing of two Sukhoi-30 MKI squadrons (36 fighters) each at Tezpur and Chabua in Assam.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 18 May 2019 15:26

So, I was reading-up on the capabilities of Korean K-30 Biho, Tugushka and Pantsir systems to under why IA went with the first one and rejected the Russian products. Especially, when on paper, the Russians systems appear far more capable and versatile.

However, the capability needs to be seen from user's perspective and how he's going to employ it. In our case, these systems go to the organic AD Brigades of Armored Divisions. They need to be mobile and provide RAPID 360 degree response. Russians systems don't necessarily do well on these aspects.

Here's what I understood:

(1) Korean K-30 BIHO:

- I think the USP of this system is its relative simplicity and flexibility.
- The missiles are adapted from MANPAD and are Fire-&-Forget in true sense.
- The system can aim missiles in a 360 degree arc against multiple targets in a quick succession
(this is a very vital aspect and we'll see how Russian systems don't do well on this parameter)
- Gun based solution relies more on electro-optical targeting, giving it that much higher reliability.

(2) Tungushka:

- Missile follows command-guidance method.
- This means, the missile is guided all the way by the systems tracking radar.
- Each system can at one time guide only ONE missile
- And since the tracking radar is fixed in the front of the turret, with certain FOV, a Tungushka can aim-and-fire only in one direction at a time. And that too, a single missile.
- So, there is no fire-and-forget missile. Plus, the system is handicapped in being able to address only one threat at a time, and that too, in a limited coverage area.
- To provide 360 degree coverage, each platform in a battery of six launchers will have to be placed in a sort of hexagonal manner. I don't think war provides such neat placement opportunities.
- Imagine a situation where a Tungushka guiding a missile at one target, is attacked by another enemy fighter/helicopter. It will have to break the lock on the first target to swivel its turret, so that it can tackle the second target (with its guns).
- BTW, the electro-optical mode is a back-up, and not primary system.

(3) Pantsir:

- Broadly, it is similar to Tungushka but is more evolved system.
- Command guidance mode but the tracking radar can guide 04 missiles as against 01 on Tungushka.
- However, only 03 targets can be tracked simultaneously.
- From what I've read, best practice is to launch 2 missiles each against two targets for highest kill probability.
- But again, targeting is limited to FOV of the radar. While radar can swivel 360 degree, while targeting and firing and passing commands to the in-flight missiles, they're fixed in a specific direction. The coverage cone is 45 degree.
- Electro-optical tracking is an independent channel as compared to being a back-up in Tungushka.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Long story short, I think Russian systems are very complex piece of equipment. Which might not be necessarily able to deliver what we're expecting basis our deployment pattern. Its not value-for-money from that aspect.

These very systems, especially newer Pantsir versions, should do very well in terminal AD role for VA/VP. Their positions can be fixed to cover all possible approaches plus, 1 or 2 systems in reserve for contingency. For example, in a battery of six, 04 can be placed in a manner to provide continuous 180 degree coverage or placed in disparate nodes. Balance 02 can be allotted as the threat evolves.

Karan, your thoughts?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 18 May 2019 15:45

Karan M wrote:Are you sure IA did not purchase 3D CAR at Troop level? Because there is this bit of intriguing information.
https://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2011/12/ ... chers.html

HAPPY HOURS: 2,500 missiles, 112 launchers, 28 MPARs & 100 3-D CARs | Massive Akash SAM system orders boost to desi pride, industries | 1st Sqn in June & 2nd in Oct 2012 | DRDO mum on Mk-II


MPAR = Rajendra

Now, lets work it out backwards. IAF ordered 8 squadrons, so thats 8x 3D CARs and 16x MPARs and 64 launchers. We also know IAF ordered for a total of 37 Rohinis (their version of 3D CAR) and that likely included the above Akash specific units. So, that leaves us 63x 3D CARs, 12x MPARs, 48x launchers to be split across 2 regiments. Lets take the MPARs first, that's 6x MPAR (i.e. 6 troops) and the 48x launchers match up. Now lets look at above picture, 16x 3D CARs for 2x regiments. Leaves us with 47 units, and we know 29x 3D TCR were ordered (these are compact versions of 3D CAR). 18x units are left, and I suspect they could be AD-TCR.


For two Akash Regiments, we need 24 Rajendra Radars and 96 launchers (6 batteries x 2 troops per battery and 4 launchers/troop). And it will need between 2 - 4 3D-CAR going by the what I know.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 15:54

Rohit, agree with your analysis on Tunguska vs BiHo.

I'll post an analysis of BiHo vs Tunguska later, but IMHO - we give up some possible advantages (all-weather radar performance) vs much more operational flexibility. BiHo setup is oriented around optical capability & fire and forget MANPADs vs guide in all the way, Tunguska SAMs. BiHo is more survivable and deadly in that its firing mechanism is more stealthy (at best you start dumping chaff & flares, but you can't try and break the missile lock by bombing the BiHo itself as its MANPADS are IR guided Chirons). Shame we couldn't plan ahead and make our own but take what is available and run with it.


Great (crazy) minds think alike. :P

By limiting the radar dependency, it also frees up the system to be more survivable.

I was reading up on SEAD tactics used by USAF in ODS etc, and the standard tactic when locked on by SA-6, Schilka etc was to shove a HARM down the radar. It may not have destroyed the radar, but at least it shut it up. The two systems they were literally scared of were the SA-6, and the SA-8, i.e. our good old OSA-AKM. The SA-6 because it was mobile and would pop up to say hello anyplace and anywhere, and this despite them having the "keys" (though they don't talk about it) since it was so extensively used and compromised since the 1973 Arab Israeli war and the SA-8, because it had an entirely passive missile. The accounts repeatedly stress how literally scared the pilots were of SAMs and trusting their chaff/flares, wild weasel formations (who'd provoke attacks by getting in the way and hence saving the strike formations), towed decoys to somehow pull some magic. They would be juggling several things at once and suddenly somebody would yell SAM and everyone goes nuts, completely at odds with the sanitized and oh-so-prim-and-proper accounts shown in propaganda shows about USAF in ODS etc. This caused mission kills. Scared/tired pilots would mess up targeting guidance, expensive LGBs or complex targeting cues on their weapons systems would be missed by skilled pilots.

As we saw on Feb 27th, this can have a real impact as pilot errors/aircraft turning away causing causing munitions to lose lock can literally save lives. That 2D X-band radar has been chosen carefully as well, enough to cue the missiles/gun quickly, though a 3D radar would have made the gun even more accurate. I wonder why we can't imtegrate the X Band radar on the Schilka upgrade to this one?!

Akash, BiHo + SpyDer will be very deadly in our context. Akash as you'd know was heavily tested in ECM environment, and BiHo + Spyder being fire & forget will be lethal as well, even if closer ranged.

In short, if there are a bunch of BiHos, it starts firing at the first target, launches a couple of MANPADS at it. Radar shows another one approaching, it relocates, and fires MANPADS, entirely passive at the 2nd target if the MANPADS are launched in, if like most MANPADS it has LOBL in passive mode. The guy won't even know what hit him.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 16:19

I suspect this is how it works - the sights on the BiHo are directed/cued by the radar, you then scan for the target. Once you see the target (whatever height), you lock the optical sights onto them, while the radar continues searching. The guns/missiles are slaved to the same angle as the sights and hence you don't need a separate height finding function in the radar and can make it simple & as light as possible. Of course, this means you can engage 1x target per time, each time you use the sights, but you'll need to remain locked on, sight wise, only if using the guns. Otherwise, fire a CHIRON MANPADs and scan for another target picked up by the radar. At any rate, missile is at 6-7km, the gun is 3km. So you'd use the gun only if you ran out of missiles OR you were targeting some missile (say a subsonic cruise missile etc) where you didn't want to waste your expensive, fire & forget missile. Also, since you don't have to guide your missile in, you can rapidly switch targets when using the missile. Simple and clean. Anyhow, if there is some fancy autrotracker on board allowing for multiple missiles to be fired against multiple targets, then that's even better.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 18 May 2019 16:35

rohitvats wrote:For two Akash Regiments, we need 24 Rajendra Radars and 96 launchers (6 batteries x 2 troops per battery and 4 launchers/troop). And it will need between 2 - 4 3D-CAR going by the what I know.


Have you confirmed this via your sources?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 18 May 2019 17:02

I'm sure of the 6 batteries, 12 troops part.


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