General Indian Military News & Discussion

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Manish_Sharma
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Aug 2019 04:14

kit wrote:the good admiral could not have said it better !! The western anglosaxons just trying to get the elephant to fight the dragon for them , so much for "Quad"

This is exactly what certain anglophile posters have been advocating "India should have gone to war with China over Doklam ... "

sudeepj
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 07 Aug 2019 21:47

Rakesh ji, I am quite capable of defending an idea and seeing any situation from multiple perspectives, something you are quite evidently, incapable of doing. For instance, one can see the danger and opportunity of a security relationship with the US at the same time. Demanding that I 'defend my idea' requires that this simple idea be under some kind of threat or attack. Playground insults, lazy googling, is neither. Further, arguing against logorrhea dressed up as analysis is a waste of my time.

Please, do reply to this post and have the last word! It will definitely make me respect you more, demonstrate your intellectual superiority and further more, influence the GoI to do what you want them to do!

Rakesh
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Aug 2019 23:32

Your multiple perspectives do not correlate or reconcile in any manner and therefore is invalid. And neither does the GOI see your point of view, just as the good Admiral said it so clearly. Only you and some of your esteemed colleagues on the forum do. So good luck with that! :) Virtually everything you have said to date - on this issue - has been nonsense. I have no need to get a last word (especially with you!), but it is you who keeps on replying despite you stating (a few posts ago) that you are done with the discussion. But yet you continue to reply and I know you will with this one as well. The more you continue on this course of action...the more one will point out the errors in your line of thinking. You can certainly hide behind the curtain of playground insults, as that is your prerogative. That is an old trick tried by your colleagues, but has never worked. Learn to discuss with facts and figures, to provide credence to your statements, which you have not provided to date.

Manish_Sharma
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Aug 2019 01:14

sudeepj wrote:Rakesh ji, I am quite capable of defending an idea and seeing any situation from multiple perspectives, something you are quite evidently, incapable of doing. For instance, one can see the danger and opportunity of a security relationship with the US at the same time. Demanding that I 'defend my idea' requires that this simple idea be under some kind of threat or attack. Playground insults, lazy googling, is neither. Further, arguing against logorrhea dressed up as analysis is a waste of my time.

Please, do reply to this post and have the last word! It will definitely make me respect you more, demonstrate your intellectual superiority and further more, influence the GoI to do what you want them to do!

These multiple perspectives aren't producing a clear path but are confused.

Don't say Russians help in Arihant and lease of Shucka B is something great , they just did it for money. But same time USA not ready to lease their nSub is defended as "why should they share their taj Mahal ..."

Then Arihant and Chakra are disparaged as ineffective for Bharat's security.

Ok so what is important for our security?
"Javelin Missile etc." Pat comes answer

Ok

"But usa limited launchers of javelin so balance doesn't tilt against pak... " defeats the purpose of poster's argument that javelin will help our security.

Now it gets more twisted

"Why didn't India MAKE ITSELF USEFUL FOR US, like pakistanis make themselves? Why did not India 15 years back created another supply line IN SERVICE OF USA from irani gwadar port? "

Doesn't stop here but goes further back 50 - 60 years and questions India being NAM member...."

Poster accused other of living in past but himself goes further in past to justify USA enmity.

Perhaps some psychological trick learned from USA to put opponents on backfoot

sudeepj
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 08 Aug 2019 02:09

Manish_Sharma wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Rakesh ji, I am quite capable of defending an idea and seeing any situation from multiple perspectives, something you are quite evidently, incapable of doing. For instance, one can see the danger and opportunity of a security relationship with the US at the same time. Demanding that I 'defend my idea' requires that this simple idea be under some kind of threat or attack. Playground insults, lazy googling, is neither. Further, arguing against logorrhea dressed up as analysis is a waste of my time.

Please, do reply to this post and have the last word! It will definitely make me respect you more, demonstrate your intellectual superiority and further more, influence the GoI to do what you want them to do!

These multiple perspectives aren't producing a clear path but are confused.

Don't say Russians help in Arihant and lease of Shucka B is something great , they just did it for money. But same time USA not ready to lease their nSub is defended as "why should they share their taj Mahal ..."

Then Arihant and Chakra are disparaged as ineffective for Bharat's security.

Ok so what is important for our security?
"Javelin Missile etc." Pat comes answer

Ok

"But usa limited launchers of javelin so balance doesn't tilt against pak... " defeats the purpose of poster's argument that javelin will help our security.

Now it gets more twisted

"Why didn't India MAKE ITSELF USEFUL FOR US, like pakistanis make themselves? Why did not India 15 years back created another supply line IN SERVICE OF USA from irani gwadar port? "

Doesn't stop here but goes further back 50 - 60 years and questions India being NAM member...."

Poster accused other of living in past but himself goes further in past to justify USA enmity.

Perhaps some psychological trick learned from USA to put opponents on backfoot


You are picking up isolated fragments from many posts to fit your narrative.

That the US is a world leader in technology is not hidden from any one. That the US is *the most important trading partner* for us is also not hidden. That there are significant transfers of technology from the US is perhaps not as well known as it should be.. But I am not about to leak some information that I do not even know the classification status of, so dont go what xfers.. what xfers on me! The political importance of the US is also pretty well known and understood. That the Chakra was leased by us from 86-9x, while 50 Indians were being killed every day by Pakistan makes me question its effectiveness. On the other hand, effectiveness of systems like Spice, Paveway, P8, M777, Apache is well understood & proven in multiple conflicts. That Indian and US interests are aligned in the Indian ocean region is also well understood. That India and the US both believe in multi-lateralism is also well understood. That Russian transfers were in return for political alignment or hard cash at different times is also well understood. That Russian interests have very few commonalities with India is also well understood. That Russian weapons pipeline is running on fumes, as is the Russian economy is again, very well understood.

So what exactly is it in my story, that the two govts. need to work harder to come to a broader strategic understanding, perhaps even an alliance, that you find objectionable? That I tried to analyse the relationship from an American point of view? That I criticized the lazy conduct of our foreign policy in the UPA era? That I then switched from an American point of view to an Indian point of view to understand Indian concerns?

You & Rakesh are seriously a joy to talk to. Kabhi chai/beer pe milo. :D

Rakesh
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 08 Aug 2019 03:28

[Edited. ramana]
Last edited by ramana on 09 Aug 2019 04:36, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by ramana

sudeepj
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 08 Aug 2019 03:52

Scenario #2 - You do have access to this information. This proves that not only are you clueless, but you are equally dangerous. People who are in the know will not come on a public forum and say something this asinine.


Having some information is not the same as 'leaking' it. There is co-operation between the US companies & India in at least two 'name brand' projects that I know of. Its only logical to think that there will be many more.. What is this nonsense about being dangerous?? To whom? And why? If you are in that trade space, you will occasionally come across bits and pieces of information.. I dont see the big deal.

That you will throw accusations like this just to win an internet argument.. it makes me respect you even more than I already do!

And dont worry about anyone applying the thumb screws to me. Ill be fine. :-)

ldev
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby ldev » 08 Aug 2019 04:41

Banditji's infatuation with the former USSR which began on his first visit in 1927 and is the root cause of the divergence of US & Indian interests over the subsequent 70+ years is causing vigorous debate on BRF 90+ years later!! Nonetheless I am going out on a limb and predicting that either the IAF or more probably the IN will induct a US fighter into service in the future.

Manish_Sharma
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Aug 2019 06:29

Rakesh wrote:@ Manish_Sharma: Hold off on replying to him. I need to nip this in the bud with sudeep.



Aye Aye Admiral, I will passively read and learn from now onwards :D

Karthik S
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 08 Aug 2019 11:40

ldev wrote:Banditji's infatuation with the former USSR which began on his first visit in 1927 and is the root cause of the divergence of US & Indian interests over the subsequent 70+ years is causing vigorous debate on BRF 90+ years later!! Nonetheless I am going out on a limb and predicting that either the IAF or more probably the IN will induct a US fighter into service in the future.


god no please... can we have discussions that keep Indian interests as top priority? Not Russian or US ?

ramana
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Aug 2019 04:26

Guys the discussion started out collegial and is turning personal.

I would suggest to cool off.

Rakesh please delete that.

SudeepJ, I get your argument that India should use what ever to get ahead. But as you know it take two hands to clap. The recent DT-IK meeting was the trigger for J&K re-organization to remove the Kashmir card.

Manish/Kashi, I know SudeepJ over that proverbial beer.
So he is not any pusher of any point of view. He just wants India to take advantage where it can.
Last edited by ramana on 09 Aug 2019 04:36, edited 1 time in total.

Roop
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Re: General Indian Military News & Discussion

Postby Roop » 09 Aug 2019 10:31

ldev wrote:Banditji's infatuation with the former USSR which began on his first visit in 1927 and is the root cause of the divergence of US & Indian interests over the subsequent 70+ years is causing vigorous debate on BRF 90+ years later!!

Ain't that the truth!! Sometimes when I sit down calmly and think about it I have to chuckle. :)

Nonetheless I am going out on a limb and predicting that either the IAF or more probably the IN will induct a US fighter into service in the future.

I think your prediction is certainly a reasonable possibility, especially for the IN. Of course, I realize that we both run the risk of being cyber-lynched here for merely making this prediction. 8)


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