Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

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ShyamSP
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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ShyamSP » 27 Sep 2019 22:53

Jay wrote:Chetak garu, this needs to be done and sooner the better. For all the things that Naidu supporters claim he did to the state(credit where its due, he did) he lost the state to anti national forces three times(2004/2009/2019) and he showed he learnt diddly squat in these losses. On top that, he aligned himself with all these anti-modi forces and for me that is reason enough for his replacement. I do not see YSRCP, JSP, Congoons leading a transition into dharmic rajya in AP. This has to happen with BJP, and TDP together and Naidu must be sacrificed for this. Do you see any upcoming leaders in AP who are capable of stringing this coalition and defeat the EJ/Anti dharmic folks?


BJP has to break KHAM (in AP, RHAM) of Congress eco-system otherwise solid 25% vote bank (*) is too much sugar for flies to lose. Otherwise BJP can't make much dent and may increase a little bit which is not enough to get ruling by itself or partners.

Some people here are stuck in the paradigm that BJP vs others (who can be abused by caste, creed, religion, etc). People on the ground in don't share the same views as some here. They see at broader level 3 models at work and can choose from - Hindutva model of BJP, Tech development model of TDP, Welfare model of INC/YCP, or Telagana-Kathray-mei-hai model of TRS. In TS, it is crowded with TRS, BJP, INC, TDP giving direct advantage to TRS and in AP, it is TDP vd YCP. While in TS there are alliances and breakups and votebank grabbings. In AP, it is quite straight way of flip coin. Even after YCP got power, at village level there is no BJP seen when it comes to getting political/bloody fights. BJP is hoping Delhi Sultan model works but for Telugus it didn't work 800, 500, and 200 years ago, it didn't work in 1980s with TDP, and it didn't work in 2000 with YCP, they always rebelled.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 27 Sep 2019 23:27

In AP, its RCHAM [Reddy, Christian, Harijan (SC), Aadivasi (ST), Muslim] that works for YSRCP. I would guess its more than 25% voting block since Christian numbers are under counted .

Even within South India, AP is unique in the sense that even Upper castes like Reddy's, Kammas, Kapus and Brahmins also got converted in fair numbers to Christianity.And this process is only increasing.

The only other such instance in South India if i am not wrong are Syrian Christians, many of whom are Nair converts i presume.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby nachiket » 28 Sep 2019 02:50

kiranA I see you are upto your old tricks again. It was precisely the North vs South nonsense and sterotyping and pouring vitriol which you have wholeheartedly indulged in here which got the previous thread in trouble. Be advised that if you continue in this vein you are looking at a permanent ban.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby kiranA » 28 Sep 2019 05:05

nachiket wrote:kiranA I see you are upto your old tricks again. It was precisely the North vs South nonsense and sterotyping and pouring vitriol which you have wholeheartedly indulged in here which got the previous thread in trouble. Be advised that if you continue in this vein you are looking at a permanent ban.


I indulged ? I was the one who question the vitriol. Before I came in it was open season on various telugu communities each one outdoing another in pouring vitriol - one particular member repeatedly called an entire community as "gangsters". I was the only one who challenged it. Ramana had the good sense to lock the whole "general discussion forum" after that. It is exactly the same situation now with posters calling some castes as "morons" "scumbags" . And it was again me who challenged which led to very people who were indulging it to request to stop it.

I would like ramana to come here and weigh in on this.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Vayutuvan » 28 Sep 2019 05:19

ShyamSP wrote:They see at broader level 3 models at work and can choose from - Hindutva model of BJP, Tech development model of TDP, Welfare model of INC/YCP, or Telagana-Kathray-mei-hai model of TRS.


Firstly, BJP should convince people that Hindutva and tech. development are not mutually exclusive. BJP is for Tech Development, which is true. They also should distance themselves from nany-state model which CBN and Jagan seem to favor.

Secondly, I take issue with the characterization of TRS model as "Telangana khatrey mein hain". That was before the split. After the split, their model has changed to triumphal TS and mocking of the political nautanki going on in AP.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Vayutuvan » 28 Sep 2019 05:27

Yagnasri wrote:Sai has won Ramnath Goyanka award of journalism some time back IIRC. Quite patriotic person. We nay not agree with his idea that all religions are peaceful etc etc. But otherwise very good.


I too find him very good. He talks very clearly, lays out the central argument and/or refutation. He is very precise and to the point.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 28 Sep 2019 11:23

kiranA is highlighting a problem in OBJP run. events the world over. This has been noted and corrective action is underway.
KiranA you need to tell your message without the artichoke covering.
BTW in many WA forums this meme is showing up.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby ramana » 28 Sep 2019 11:26

And folks we are trying to run a good forum. It's a new Bharat we are seeing form right in our eyes. Beyond caste. Lets honor it.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Lilo » 28 Sep 2019 21:04

<Poof>
Last edited by hnair on 28 Sep 2019 22:59, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Don’t bring in stuff from other forums for personal attacks. Use reporting function if you don’t like a post

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 29 Sep 2019 19:49

Video

https://twitter.com/pradeepgoud11/statu ... 0941036549

KCR's friend Razakar Owaisi mocking Bathukamma festival.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Lilo » 29 Sep 2019 21:44

<POOF> Dont derail thread with personal attacks on a poster or a moderator. You are already at your third live warning. Off for a week
Last edited by hnair on 29 Sep 2019 22:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: banned for a week

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Krita » 29 Sep 2019 22:07

Rony wrote:In AP, its RCHAM [Reddy, Christian, Harijan (SC), Aadivasi (ST), Muslim] that works for YSRCP. I would guess its more than 25% voting block since Christian numbers are under counted .

Even within South India, AP is unique in the sense that even Upper castes like Reddy's, Kammas, Kapus and Brahmins also got converted in fair numbers to Christianity.And this process is only increasing.

The only other such instance in South India if i am not wrong are Syrian Christians, many of whom are Nair converts i presume.


Most of the Nair conversions are into evangelical and Pentecostal, which is a recent phenomenon. Syrian Catholics claim all sort of theories of their origin which includes Jewish, Namboodaris, Syrian (knanaya) and Nairs. None of which are true or backed by any substantial proof. I guess, the false claim is to feel superior to the neo-converts and for bragging rights among upper caste Hindus.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Vayutuvan » 29 Sep 2019 22:55

my understanding is that there were a large number Brahmin converts to Syrian Catholicism.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 30 Sep 2019 00:34

@Krita. You may be right on the multitude Syrian Christian claims. Here is a Syrian Christian claiming with "proffs" (as he say) they are originally Brahmins

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Vayutuvan » 30 Sep 2019 01:34

Rony wrote:@Krita. You may be right on the multitude Syrian Christian claims. Here is a Syrian Christian claiming with "proffs" (as he say) they are originally Brahmins


That thread hurt my head. Ouch!!!

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby UlanBatori » 30 Sep 2019 04:30

Sorry to intrude on this lovefest, but what's with the sudden SC interest in illegal construction in Malloostan?

A couple of dins pehle I saw a whole list of high-rises condommed for demolition (!!!!!) WITHIN 138 DAYS across several districts of Malloostan. Now flat owners are on Hunger Strike etc. I suppose no one believes that the order will be carried out: all laws and orders are considered to be mere suggestions in Malloostan.

Its like the novel "Day of the Jackal" says about the confidence of the aphsar convicted for attempted murder of De Gaulle: He believed until the bullets actually hit, that "no french soldier will ever fire on me for the heroic deed of attempting to get revenge for Algerian treachery". True, but his flunkies' bullets missed. Degaulle's flunkies did not miss.

I also find it curious that the broke KL Govt has been ordered to pay Rs 25 L to every flat owner as "INTERIM" compensation WITHIN 4 WEEKS. The SC must be breathing the hasish-laden air of Dilli: the KL govt hasn't paid the Gratuity etc owed to govt. officers on retirement, for years.

The flat owners seem to be in a hard place: Rs25 L is not pennies, and may be about what they showed on their real estate registrations, but flats in nbds such as Marad (Kochi environs) are probably priced in the few crores regime. Beyond "interim" I don't think they have any hope of getting any other money back, if the SC is serious.

Wonder about the inside stories on this. Highly overdue attention to real estate scams and corruption in KL, but shocking, nevertheless.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Krita » 30 Sep 2019 10:44

Vayutuvan wrote:my understanding is that there were a large number Brahmin converts to Syrian Catholicism.


For Nairs, distance to be maintained from a Namboodari was eight feet (except samantha Nairs) for other caste s and religions it was 16 feet. How on earth would have latin/Hebrew speaking Christians converted Namboodaris without getting killed on spot.
Christians rose to prominence only after the Travancore hae become a British protectorate. The royals were forced to give land for building churches, seminaries and convent schools and colleges. To give credibility to these lies they have even brought in Thomas leeha, who has a shrine at Kalady-Malyatoor with rituals closely resembling Sabarimala. They claim that Thimas leeha had landed in Kerala and Namboodaris and Jews converted enmasse to Christianity due to his teachings
A Spanish priest in an interview had said that Thomas leeha had never visited India and had died in Europe.
How did Thomas Lehha communicate with Sanskrit/Malayalam speaking Namboodaris and impress them with his spirituality? They have no answers for that.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Sachin » 30 Sep 2019 13:54

Vayutuvan wrote:my understanding is that there were a large number Brahmin converts to Syrian Catholicism.

Krita wrote:Christians rose to prominence only after the Travancore hae become a British protectorate. The royals were forced to give land for building churches, seminaries and convent schools and colleges

Krita wrote:To give credibility to these lies they have even brought in Thomas leeha, who has a shrine at Kalady-Malyatoor with rituals closely resembling Sabarimala

Various historians have debunked this theory of St. Thomas coming to what is today Kerala and converting the Namboodiri brahmins to Christianity. MGS Narayanan is one such historian. St. Thomas being the apostle of Christ, would have lived in the same times of Christ. The land what is known as Kerala, may NOT have been even inhabited during those days. Secondly the Namboodiri Brahmins are actually folks who have landed up from else where some time in the 8th century. So they landed up much after St. Thomas even decided to quit this world. And it was only in the 12th century and after that the Namboodiri Brahmins started holding clout in the Kerala society.

During the reign of Travancore and Cochin Kings, Syrian Christians were at-par with the Nair when it comes to social status. So I don't see why would any Nair be motivated to convert to X'ianity. The christian community would have fit perfectly with the concept of Vaishya/ (traders) in the Hindu class hierarchy, in Kerala.

Malayatoor church was actually a very normal church at least during mid 1980s. The church existed there and people also used to climb up the hill to pray. But it was only very recently (i.e less than 20 years) that the clergy is trying to ape the Sabari Mala pilgrimage. So if Ayyappa devotees wear black, the X'ians would wear a kind of saffron. The Ayyappas carry a Irumudi kettu on their heads, the x'ians carry a cross :). Ayyappas from other states often trek the entire route and now so do the X'ian believers.

Ulan Batori wrote:Now flat owners are on Hunger Strike etc. I suppose no one believes that the order will be carried out: all laws and orders are considered to be mere suggestions in Malloostan.

The flat owners seem to be in a hard place: Rs25 L is not pennies, and may be about what they showed on their real estate registrations, but flats in nbds such as Marad (Kochi environs) are probably priced in the few crores regime

Real Estate business in KL was always a sham. I don't think there is any builder who have actually build these apartments in full compliance to the law. They also trick gullible people by promising them sun & the moon. The real estate mafia always approached people talking about investments (i.e some thing which they can hold on for some time and dump it on some one else' head). This was what attracted many people who are not poor and already have proper houses to live in. This "investment" aspect introduced greed, and this was followed by black money.

When Modi visited the US, the FOKANA folks (I am sure you know those chaps) wanted to meet and appraise him of the situation. That is because many of the owners were FOKANA members who were in US. What the KL Govt. has to do is to clearly put up a list of owners who actually stay in these flats, and also share the price they paid as per the Sale Deed and the registration costs. The compensation should be pegged against the sale deed and registration cost. Because in KL it is well known that real estate was a place to sink in unaccounted money. The actual money paid would be way too high of what is shown in the government records.

As of today the residents have promised to move out by October 3rd. Demolition process would begin on Oct 11th.

Wonder about the inside stories on this. Highly overdue attention to real estate scams and corruption in KL, but shocking, nevertheless.

Not much of an inside story. The whole construction was done by getting a stay order on a "stop memo" issued by the Marad Panchayath, after it was found that the flats violated the CBZ norms. The stay order came from Kerala HC, and the state also conveniently did not appeal against it. The Panchayath and later corporation also only gave "UA numbers"; a term used for a numbering scheme given for unauthorised buildings. The buyer clearly knew that he/she is buying a flat which is not officially recognized by the civic agencies, but they went ahead and bought it. The flats are all owned by the usual chaps; movie stars, Gelf based businessmen, FOKANA chaps and perhaps a few politicans in benami ownership.

The owners believed that just like any law in KL, all violations can be cancelled out by throwing money around. But all that failed in front of Justice Arun Mishra. What seems to have irritated him is that the owners had also approached a vacation bench of the SC and tried to get a stay, by hiding the fact that Justice Arun Mishra's bench had heard the case and denied a stay. The owners also got a Bengali lawyer to plead, and the judge had asked in open court whether they were trying to influence him by getting a lawyer from his home (!?) state.

Justice Arun Mishra also had ordered handing over of some churches from Jacobite sect to Orthodox sect and forced KL govt to execute the orders. He was also the judge who threw out a KL Govt ordinance which allowed again poor (kids of Gelf based businessmen) students to get MBBS seat by paying lakhs and byepassing NEET norms.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Oct 2019 00:18

Wow. The times they are a-changing, as Bob Dylan sang.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Manu » 01 Oct 2019 01:37

Sachin wrote: The land what is known as Kerala, may NOT have been even inhabited during those days.


Kerala has been trading with Rome (and Egypt before that) for at least 30 years before Christ was even born.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby UlanBatori » 01 Oct 2019 06:42

Reason to believe that the entire coastline of India was both populated and active in trade, for a VERY long time. Actually Mohterma Lucy, per Scientific American Anthropologists, got up one day in Cape Town and started walking north, into Tanzania, seeing Lake Tanganyka, sliding on her butt down the slope of Kilimanjaro, visiting the Ngorongoro Crater Zoological Preserve, then up north, floating down the Nile to the ocean, walking across the Isthmus of Suez and across the ARabian desert, stopping by at Chabahar and Gwadar before crossing the Indus delta, and then stopping at Mumbai, and vacationing in Goa, then coming down to Kovalam Resort before going down to KanyaKumari and walking up to Kolkatta and then Rangoon and eventually Tokyo.

Her kids (and apparently she left quite a few litters along the way) started trading.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Vayutuvan » 01 Oct 2019 07:42

Krita wrote:To give credibility to these lies they have even brought in Thomas leeha, who has a shrine at Kalady-Malyatoor with rituals closely resembling Sabarimala.


At Kalady itself?!!! aadi shankara's birthplace. :shock:

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Kaivalya » 01 Oct 2019 14:17

For reference on St.Thomas - Please read which contains fair amount of detail on this historical myth that keeps getting repeated after being debunked for a while:

https://ishwarsharan.com/

Yours truly is very well aware of multiple places around Chennai where this myth is still popular and floats around. Ofcourse MSM do not particularly want to spread wisdom about it

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby arvin » 02 Oct 2019 07:27




https://www.wetlands.org/blog/in-india- ... -wetlands/

Murmurs have begun against SOB-ha city in central kerala built on kole wetlands no less. The areas drainage system has gone for a toss after that thing came up and the fields resemble extension of arabian sea after heavy rains. With SUVs floating in water at the toyota showroom, they are better advised to tie up with GRSE for selling boats.
Due to dense network of rivers, kerala is unsuitable for constructing massive urban sprawl as seen in metros in india.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Oct 2019 07:55

I have wondered about that, but the place is revered as the all-time marvel of sophistication "U have megamalls - v have SOB-ha city". Time for loud murmurs. Used to be beautifully peaceful green fields on both sides of the road, very nice breeze. Memories. Now completely built up with ****. "cities" and other eyesores. A good flood.... :twisted:

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Sachin » 02 Oct 2019 09:05

arvin wrote:Murmurs have begun against SOB-ha city in central kerala built on kole wetlands no less. The areas drainage system has gone for a toss after that thing came up and the fields resemble extension of arabian sea after heavy rains

Ulan Batori wrote:I have wondered about that, but the place is revered as the all-time marvel of sophistication "U have megamalls - v have SOB-ha city".

The murmurs are true. There is a lady advocate who has been working quite hard to expose the builder group. With rumours even going to such levels that it was her complaint which messed up the Padmasri chances of the SOB-ha chief ;). The builders have been accused of even changing the flow of a very small liver in the place. And the traffic jams on this narrow "highway" is now legendary, and gives Silk Board Jn of Bangalore good competition. The whole place is also the residence area of the local yeevil capitalists/bourgeoisie gang of Kerala, with whom the revolutionaries of CPI(M) and CPI have quite a fruitful relation with.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby kvraghav » 02 Oct 2019 12:35

If this is sobha builders, that's d k shivakumar helping your city

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby UlanBatori » 02 Oct 2019 20:23

I thought the owner\developer is a Gelf-returned Other Community boss who has numerous stunts to his "credit" like beating up this or that watchman etc. I don't know the details.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby arvin » 03 Oct 2019 22:55

The watchman beating chap is a tobaco and beedi kingpin who drove his hummer into the poor guy for not opening gate quickly. nothing to do with real estate. Also has other cases against him.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Oct 2019 01:01

Oh, is that the general class of the neighborhood in SOB-ha apts? This is my great fear: that the higher the high-rise and the posher the gardens, the lower the cretins who live there. Sounds like a mini-New York and Pakistan rolled into one. And to think it used to be a nice peaceful road where one could squat on the edge and go pakistan into the field in the gentle morning breeze!

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Sachin » 04 Oct 2019 10:58

Kerala seems to be facing too many "challenges" (to quote from the IT-Vity jargon).
1. Residents leave Maradu flats; Deadline extended for shifting belongings. Main stream media focuses on the sad plight of the poor people staying in these flats and comes with series of sob stories. This which they did NOT do when tribals and marginalised sections in KL were evicted by the police in less than 24 hours. Communist/socialist ideas in KL are now more suited for the rich bourgueise.
Came back to say: Reports say 50 flats in these high rise apartments do not have conclusive records proving ownership :P. That is; in other words they are benami property. And it is any one's guess as to who the actual "owners" would be and how they got the flat.

2. Protest March In Wayanad Against Night Traffic Ban On Highway. The Supreme Court hearing a case on the night traffic ban on a highway connecting Wayanad Dt, KL and Karnataka had also checked if the ban can be made 24/7 after identiying an alternate route. The night traffic ban was introduced 10 years back after noticing that the heavy vehicles running in night was injuring/killing lot of wild life in the reserve forest. KA forest dept and the environmental activists have been able to prepare very good case studies explaining how the night traffic ban helped protecting the forest and wild life. KL government on the other hand have NOT been able to put up a convincing case on why the ban should be lifted. This issue also brings in a very important aspect; KL and its self-sustainability. Here the people of Wayanad district are openly admitting that they rely on KA and Mysore for better health care facilities, better educational facilities and for daily supply of vegetables. Which kind of hits their own claim of good health care, better education and 100% literacy etc. Kerala & its people should now seriously relook on their idea of Kerala Model development. Looks like TN & KA can really hold KL to ransom :P.

UlanBatori wrote:I thought the owner\developer is a Gelf-returned Other Community boss who has numerous stunts to his "credit" like beating up this or that watchman etc. I don't know the details.

In that part of woods the oft spoken names are that of C.K Menon (now deceased), and P.N.C Menon who runs the Sobha Group. There were also regional players like ENARC,Cheloor and many other local town chaps who all tried to make it big using the real estate boom. The net result was a small town is now full of highrises, and don't know if they are all occupied as well. The beating up watchman incident was different. The closest I have heard is that the son-in-law of one such real estate baron getting sloshed and actually managing to hit a police jeep neatly parked on the curb side ;).

Oh, is that the general class of the neighborhood in SOB-ha apts? This is my great fear: that the higher the high-rise and the posher the gardens, the lower the cretins who live there.

At the moment SOB-ha city is pretty much at the same level of the 4 flats in Kochi, when it comes to people who stay there. NRIs, and only jewellery and real estate wheeler-dealers have their camps there. For the aam janata there is also a big mall and movie multiplex there to keep them occupied. Movie watching and ogling at the palaces of the rich is the new time-pass. But the net result is huge traffic jams on this state highway, with the Municipal Corporation and PWD having no clue to permenantly fix and the police department having a 24/7 problem placed on their necks. And you were right, I too remember this road once upon a time. A simple two lane road, with big trees on both sides and farm lands till the horizon. Remember cycling on the road to go to a hill near the same place.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rajesh_MR » 04 Oct 2019 18:21

Sachin wrote: And you were right, I too remember this road once upon a time. A simple two lane road, with big trees on both sides and farm lands till the horizon. Remember cycling on the road to go to a hill near the same place.

Absolutely, this area used to be much less busy with only traffic to Guruvayoor and Amala Hosp. Cycling to Vellangan Kunnu was a good pass time :)

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 06 Oct 2019 09:23

It was recently claimed on my wall that there must be something special about Tamil which is why Tamilians name themselves தமிழ்ச்செல்வன் (Tamilselvan), தமிழரசி (Tamizharasi), etc., after the Tamil language. Speakers of other languages do not name themselves after their respective languages - so by extension they didn't think there was anything special about their own languages. By this strange logic, since we never came across names such as Latin Babu, Greek Arasan, or Arbëresh Selvi those people weren't as proud of their respective languages as our Tamil fanatics are!

First, these kind of Tamil names have gained prevalence only in the last 100 years or so as a result of Dravidianist and Tamil separatist movements. Those who joined these movements were soaked in hatred for Brahmins, Sanskrit, and North Indians while simultaneously displaying a deep inferiority complex and servility toward European colonial rulers. They opted for such names to reinforce their delusional belief that the Tamil culture is independent of Hindu culture. They also believed that Tamil was 65 million years old and was spoken by Dravidian dinosaurs in the First Tamil Sangam until Aryan T-Rex came and destroyed them and imposed Sanskrit! Often, their progeny ended up as David Tamilarasan or Jessica Tamilselvi. A couple of generations later, they were given more fanciful names like John F Kennedy (an auto driver whom I once met in Chennai - his dad was a Catholic but our JFK converted to Protestantism and named his son George Bush)! In the anterior times, such names weren't given. Somebody claimed that the great Saiva Nayanmar Tirujnanasambandar called himself தமிழ்ஞான சம்பந்தன் (Tamizh Jnana Sambandan). Indeed he did. It means Sambandan who had acquired the knowledge of moksha marga (vidya as contrasted with avidya in Hindu philosophical traditions) which resides in Tamil. It was not his first name. If this trend of naming oneself after Tamil had been prevalent, one must be able to cite many examples from the intervening centuries. You would draw a blank!

Second, there are several ways to infer whether a people value their language. The creation of grammar is one such mechanism. Sanskrit grammar is the oldest in the world and it inspired the creation of Tamil grammar. In other words, those who spoke Sanskrit have the longest history of cherishing their own language and regarding it as special. What good is it if a bunch of inferiority-ridden fools call themselves Tamilselvan but cannot even pronounce Tamil phonemes leave alone demonstrate any knowledge of Tamil texts and traditions? Would you rather not wish that one creates grammatical frameworks, alamkara rules, checksum-like features to preserve the meter and speech, and so forth - as the speakers of Sanskrit did?

Third, anyone with a tad bit of knowledge of linguistics would know that every language has grammar. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been understood by its speakers. It is the complexity of grammar and aesthetics which varies depending on how sophisticated the culture of the speakers is. Not only Sanskrit but Pali, the various Prakrits, Kannada have all had grammar, a rich history of scripts, aesthetics, and the notion of sacred language (e.g., the preservation of the tipitaka in Pali). Tamil too has had such a tradition and it was inspired by Sanskrit.

Those are the facts - the delusions harbored by Tamil fanatics notwithstanding. I must add that these fanatics who hate Brahmins, Sanskrit, Hindi, and North Indians while simultaneously worshiping the white man, English, and Christianity are a minority among Tamils. This despicable group only emerged in the last century or so. The sentiments they display wasn't present in Tamilnadu before that. If anything, Tamils considered Sanskrit and Tamil as sacred and as originating from the damaru of Shiva.


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Rony
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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rony » 06 Oct 2019 09:29

In a recent post, Jataayu B'luru correctly criticized PM Modi for ignorantly stating that Tamil is the oldest language in the world. I would add a few more points.

1.) Tamil is a rich and beautiful language. However, it is not very old. The oldest genre of Tamil literature, the Sangam classics, are dated between 300 BCE and 300 CE. Here, BCE estimates are liberal. In contrast, the Vedas were redacted no later than 1,500 BCE and dating the texts by astronomical references the Vedas would belong in the 3rd millennium BCE. In other words, Sanskrit is at least two millennia older than Tamil. Numerous languages of the Indo-European family are of greater antiquity than Tamil. In India itself, besides Sanskrit, Pali and various prakrits are much older than Tamil. Even among the Dravidian languages of India, Kannada preserves many older linguistic fossils than Tamil.

2.) Only a small but vociferous minority of Tamils are language fanatics. However, this group is entirely made up of bigots and ignoramuses who cannot even pronounce many Tamil phonemes. Their worldview is shaped by a loathing of Brahmins. By extension, they identify Sanskrit, Hindi, and North Indians with the Brahmins and hate all of them. This bunch has derived its ideological inspiration and funding from Christian missionaries. Their knowledge of Tamil can be accommodated on a pinhead and you would still have ample room. A PM cannot formulate his public positions to appease this hate-ridden minority.

3.) Every Tamil who really loves Tamil and is knowledgeable about it has no animosity toward Sanskrit or Hindi. They have no animosity toward any other language either.

4.) Tamil is no more special than Malayalam, Bhojpuri, or Marathi. It is one of India's many national languages. It cannot be the link language because it lacks a pan-Indic presence. Only Hindi can be India's official language.

5.) Sanskrit is the treasure-trove of Indian culture. No other language, Tamil included, is a match to Sanskrit when it comes to the wealth of philosophical and scientific texts. Bluntly put, Tamil literary tradition and motifs are inspired by Sanskrit. The earliest Tamil grammar was inspired by Sanskrit grammatical works. It was Sanskrit which brought Tamilnadu out of the Neolithic and gave it an efflorescence of literature.

Let me close this post by needling Tamil fanatics. You guys are not only indebted to Sanskrit for inspiring the Tamil culture but you're also indebted to North Indians for infusing bravery into Tamilnadu. Sangam poetry expresses awe at the sight of the chariots and horses of the Maurya army. The Cholas, Pandyas, and Pallavas all came from the north. One of the finest forts and centers of martial excellence in Tamilnadu is the Gingi fort. The name of the valorous Desingu Rajan is inseparably fused into it. He was a Rajput by the way - his name was Raj Tej Singh which the Tamils pronounced as Desingu! In recent times, Kattabomman has been a Tamil hero for standing up to the Brits. Well, he was a Telugu person!

So, Tamil fanatics, you had to look northward even for a show of real courage. Please pay your obeisance to all people north and west of Tamilnadu. You're anyway worshiping their females who act in Tamil movies. It shouldn't be too difficult to worship their men too. :)


https://www.facebook.com/KalavaiVenkat/ ... 2029391492


My recent note that the most celebrated warriors of Tamil history have been non-Tamils - especially often North Indians - has touched a raw nerve among many Tamil fanatics. So, let me needle them a little more! I had earlier mentioned that Desingu Rajan, Kattabomman, Pallavas, Cholas, and Pandiyas were all non-Tamils. Let me add a little more mirch to it in this post so Tamil fanatics could lick a spiced wound!

Chola inscriptions have a detailed account of the martial regiments they enlisted. You notice two curious things. None of the Tamil jatis is listed as cavalry (the pride and strike force of any military then) regiments. Second, many of the Tamil jatis enlisted are listed with the appellation வேலைக்காரர், i.e., errand boys. Some Tamil fanatics and pseudo-scholars have attempted to wish away this inconvenient listing but the fact remains that hardly any Tamil jati was regarded as hardy fighters by the Tamil kings. Virtually all strike forces were made up of Rajputs, Marathas, Tulus, and other martial jatis of Andhra and Karnataka. So, if Tamil fanatics want to disown them then all they would be left with is the errand boys legacy! [PS: This is just a teaser. Unlike most Tamils, I am well read on Chola inscriptions. I can bring out a lot more embarrassing details. :-)]

Inscriptions in Karnataka inform us that Gautamiputra Satakarni defeated the Sakas, who had earlier laid waste to the Satavahana kingdom, which Gautamipputra revived in the late first century. The Nashik inscriptions inform us that Gautamiputra also vanquished the Yavanas and Pahlavas in a series of battles. It is interesting that the Sakas and others didn't bother to venture beyond Karnataka two millennia ago. It is quite likely that they would've had a large or prosperous Tamil kingdom or civilization existed in Tamilnadu then. Also, pay attention to the Ashokan edicts which mention the Cholas, Pandiyas, and Cheras in the passing. This edict is not in Tamilnadu but in Karnataka. Is it because these kings (especially Cholas and Pandiyas) were small principalities who were then located in Karnataka and were just making their forays into Tamilnadu?

Cheras are a more interesting phenomenon. They're referenced by multiple first century sources such as Pliny the Elder, Ptolemy, and Periplus of the Erythrean sea. In their writings as well as the Ashokan inscriptions, the Cheras are referred to using cognates of the Sanskrit word Kerala putra. So, it is evidently a self-appellation and it is quite likely that they were an Indo-Aryan martial folk. So, in all probability, a kingdom took roots first in Karnataka, and then Kerala, before it could be traced in Tamilnadu!

Now, some of you may wonder whether I am giving non-Tamils ammunition to ridicule Tamils. I am providing it so that Tamil fanatics are ridiculed. If Tamil fanatics make fanciful, hate-filled claims about their own past then others should embarrass them with facts. Let's face it. There is not much of a martial spirit among the Tamil jatis. Even today, in kabaddi (a Vedic martial sport rooted in wrestling), Jats, Rajputs, and Marathas would effortlessly swat the Tamils. In fact, you don't see that many Tamils in the sport at all. May be the Cholas identified them as errand boys because of the lack of martial spirit?

Let me conclude on a serious note. I regard the Cholas, Cheras, Pandiyas, Pallavas, Rajputs, etc., as part of the Tamil heritage no matter where they came from. If we start classifying them as outsiders as petty-minded Tamil fanatics do then you would be left with a severely impoverished Tamil legacy. No matter whence they came those Cholas and Maratthas regarded themselves as Tamils and contributed to the Tamil legacy and culture. They fought and died for things which Tamils cherished. The moment you see them with inclusive eyes, as they themselves did, you would identify their achievements as your own too. This is why anyone who opposes Sanskrit, Hindi, Brahmins, or North Indians deserves to be ridiculed.


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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby UlanBatori » 06 Oct 2019 17:32

Of course Mongolian is the true origin of all language, hence the confusion about Central Asian as well as the confusion (by Herr Doktor LinguistischFuhrer Witlez von Harvardappa) of Rg Veda with shepherds calling goats. Its actually yaks. Mongolian led directly to Malloostani.

But seriously, a case could be made that "Samskrtam" (I diss anyone who uses the urdu sunnatized version "Sanskrit") meaning refined, was refined from the earlier Tamizh, which was my interpretation of NaMo's statement. I hope this discussion is transferred to the Out Of India dhaga if it still exists. Or maybe the Pissicks dhaga.

The point about the New Tamil Loyalists being EJ is thought-provoking: I had not thought about it. Now the Language riots of 1964(?) are seen in a new light. Although well-founded in the backlash against idiotic hindi-wallahs who refused to learn anything about south India (they still confuse Madras with Kerala), there may have been an external secessionist incitement. Later that went down to Sri Lanka with extreme consequences.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby KL Dubey » 06 Oct 2019 19:46

Rony wrote:
In a recent post, Jataayu B'luru correctly criticized PM Modi for ignorantly stating that Tamil is the oldest language in the world. I would add a few more points.

Cheras are a more interesting phenomenon. They're referenced by multiple first century sources such as Pliny the Elder, Ptolemy, and Periplus of the Erythrean sea. In their writings as well as the Ashokan inscriptions, the Cheras are referred to using cognates of the Sanskrit word Kerala putra. So, it is evidently a self-appellation and it is quite likely that they were an Indo-Aryan martial folk.


https://www.facebook.com/KalavaiVenkat/ ... 3835997978


I doubt that. It is possible that the Cheras were "Sanskritized" earlier than the Tamil regions but that does not mean they were originally Indo-Aryan speakers with no connection to the Tamils.

There is a list of Chera rulers (Perumals) dating from roughly the first/second century CE. All Perumals were elected as rulers by Brahmans: they do not appear to have been hereditary rulers. Many of them have interchangeable Dravidian and Indo-Aryan (in terms of language) names. The first one is "Keya" a.k.a. "Cheraman Keralan". The second is "Cholan Perumal", the third is "Pandy Perumal", the fourth is "Tuluvan Perumal". Only from the 8th and 9th rulers do we start seeing names like "Indran Perumal" and "Aryan Perumal" (a.k.a. "Kompan").

All southern dynasties underwent continuous Sanskritization, not just by Brahmans but also (temporarily) by Buddhists and Jains. The same goes for Rajputs, Marathas, etc.

So, in all probability, a kingdom took roots first in Karnataka, and then Kerala, before it could be traced in Tamilnadu!


It is indeed true that the domain of the Cheras extended from Gokarna (near Goa, i.e. halfway up the west coast) till Kanyakumari. According to the historical account, Aryan Perumal subdivided the domain into four regions which are basically now coastal Karnataka (tulunad), malabar (north KL), cochin (central KL), and travancore (south KL).

However, I doubt if we can confidently say "in all probability" that the west coast was Sanskritized before the east.

The sooner the better, of course!

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Rsatchi » 06 Oct 2019 20:40

Rony wrote:
In a recent post, Jataayu B'luru correctly criticized PM Modi for ignorantly stating that Tamil is the oldest language in the world. I would add a few more points.

1.) Tamil is a rich and beautiful language. However, it is not very old. The oldest genre of Tamil literature, the Sangam classics, are dated between 300 BCE and 300 CE. Here, BCE estimates are liberal. In contrast, the Vedas were redacted no later than 1,500 BCE and dating the texts by astronomical references the Vedas would belong in the 3rd millennium BCE. In other words, Sanskrit is at least two millennia older than Tamil. Numerous languages of the Indo-European family are of greater antiquity than Tamil. In India itself, besides Sanskrit, Pali and various prakrits are much older than Tamil. Even among the Dravidian languages of India, Kannada preserves many older linguistic fossils than Tamil.

2.) Only a small but vociferous minority of Tamils are language fanatics. However, this group is entirely made up of bigots and ignoramuses who cannot even pronounce many Tamil phonemes. Their worldview is shaped by a loathing of Brahmins. By extension, they identify Sanskrit, Hindi, and North Indians with the Brahmins and hate all of them. This bunch has derived its ideological inspiration and funding from Christian missionaries. Their knowledge of Tamil can be accommodated on a pinhead and you would still have ample room. A PM cannot formulate his public positions to appease this hate-ridden minority.

3.) Every Tamil who really loves Tamil and is knowledgeable about it has no animosity toward Sanskrit or Hindi. They have no animosity toward any other language either.

4.) Tamil is no more special than Malayalam, Bhojpuri, or Marathi. It is one of India's many national languages. It cannot be the link language because it lacks a pan-Indic presence. Only Hindi can be India's official language.

5.) Sanskrit is the treasure-trove of Indian culture. No other language, Tamil included, is a match to Sanskrit when it comes to the wealth of philosophical and scientific texts. Bluntly put, Tamil literary tradition and motifs are inspired by Sanskrit. The earliest Tamil grammar was inspired by Sanskrit grammatical works. It was Sanskrit which brought Tamilnadu out of the Neolithic and gave it an efflorescence of literature.

Let me close this post by needling Tamil fanatics. You guys are not only indebted to Sanskrit for inspiring the Tamil culture but you're also indebted to North Indians for infusing bravery into Tamilnadu. Sangam poetry expresses awe at the sight of the chariots and horses of the Maurya army. The Cholas, Pandyas, and Pallavas all came from the north. One of the finest forts and centers of martial excellence in Tamilnadu is the Gingi fort. The name of the valorous Desingu Rajan is inseparably fused into it. He was a Rajput by the way - his name was Raj Tej Singh which the Tamils pronounced as Desingu! In recent times, Kattabomman has been a Tamil hero for standing up to the Brits. Well, he was a Telugu person!

So, Tamil fanatics, you had to look northward even for a show of real courage. Please pay your obeisance to all people north and west of Tamilnadu. You're anyway worshiping their females who act in Tamil movies. It shouldn't be too difficult to worship their men too. :)


https://www.facebook.com/KalavaiVenkat/ ... 2029391492


My recent note that the most celebrated warriors of Tamil history have been non-Tamils - especially often North Indians - has touched a raw nerve among many Tamil fanatics. So, let me needle them a little more! I had earlier mentioned that Desingu Rajan, Kattabomman, Pallavas, Cholas, and Pandiyas were all non-Tamils. Let me add a little more mirch to it in this post so Tamil fanatics could lick a spiced wound!

Chola inscriptions have a detailed account of the martial regiments they enlisted. You notice two curious things. None of the Tamil jatis is listed as cavalry (the pride and strike force of any military then) regiments. Second, many of the Tamil jatis enlisted are listed with the appellation வேலைக்காரர், i.e., errand boys. Some Tamil fanatics and pseudo-scholars have attempted to wish away this inconvenient listing but the fact remains that hardly any Tamil jati was regarded as hardy fighters by the Tamil kings. Virtually all strike forces were made up of Rajputs, Marathas, Tulus, and other martial jatis of Andhra and Karnataka. So, if Tamil fanatics want to disown them then all they would be left with is the errand boys legacy! [PS: This is just a teaser. Unlike most Tamils, I am well read on Chola inscriptions. I can bring out a lot more embarrassing details. :-)]

Inscriptions in Karnataka inform us that Gautamiputra Satakarni defeated the Sakas, who had earlier laid waste to the Satavahana kingdom, which Gautamipputra revived in the late first century. The Nashik inscriptions inform us that Gautamiputra also vanquished the Yavanas and Pahlavas in a series of battles. It is interesting that the Sakas and others didn't bother to venture beyond Karnataka two millennia ago. It is quite likely that they would've had a large or prosperous Tamil kingdom or civilization existed in Tamilnadu then. Also, pay attention to the Ashokan edicts which mention the Cholas, Pandiyas, and Cheras in the passing. This edict is not in Tamilnadu but in Karnataka. Is it because these kings (especially Cholas and Pandiyas) were small principalities who were then located in Karnataka and were just making their forays into Tamilnadu?

Cheras are a more interesting phenomenon. They're referenced by multiple first century sources such as Pliny the Elder, Ptolemy, and Periplus of the Erythrean sea. In their writings as well as the Ashokan inscriptions, the Cheras are referred to using cognates of the Sanskrit word Kerala putra. So, it is evidently a self-appellation and it is quite likely that they were an Indo-Aryan martial folk. So, in all probability, a kingdom took roots first in Karnataka, and then Kerala, before it could be traced in Tamilnadu!

Now, some of you may wonder whether I am giving non-Tamils ammunition to ridicule Tamils. I am providing it so that Tamil fanatics are ridiculed. If Tamil fanatics make fanciful, hate-filled claims about their own past then others should embarrass them with facts. Let's face it. There is not much of a martial spirit among the Tamil jatis. Even today, in kabaddi (a Vedic martial sport rooted in wrestling), Jats, Rajputs, and Marathas would effortlessly swat the Tamils. In fact, you don't see that many Tamils in the sport at all. May be the Cholas identified them as errand boys because of the lack of martial spirit?

Let me conclude on a serious note. I regard the Cholas, Cheras, Pandiyas, Pallavas, Rajputs, etc., as part of the Tamil heritage no matter where they came from. If we start classifying them as outsiders as petty-minded Tamil fanatics do then you would be left with a severely impoverished Tamil legacy. No matter whence they came those Cholas and Maratthas regarded themselves as Tamils and contributed to the Tamil legacy and culture. They fought and died for things which Tamils cherished. The moment you see them with inclusive eyes, as they themselves did, you would identify their achievements as your own too. This is why anyone who opposes Sanskrit, Hindi, Brahmins, or North Indians deserves to be ridiculed.


https://www.facebook.com/KalavaiVenkat/ ... 3835997978

So true sir!!
Every time I have 'Shastrarth' with a 'Kattarpanthi Tamil Nakeeran!!' I have to remind them of written recorded history of Karnataka dynasties were the true 'Gate keepers' of the south and managed to keep the so-called 'Aryans' or the 'Islamic hordes' away be it Pulakeshi II, Gautamiputra Satkarni, Vikramaditya II :rotfl:
They then drown me out with 'Gangaikonda Chola' or 'Raja Raja Chola' and Naval Power.!!! :D

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby arshyam » 07 Oct 2019 08:49

I don't know who this Kalavai Venkat is, but he seems to have a serious burr up his backside. While his points about Tamil not being that ancient are not off the mark, and I too was surprised by Modi making a categorical statement like that, but it is certainly old and extends into the so called BCE period. I say this without taking away anything from other southern languages or Sanskrit (UB-ji, pliss to excuse onlee) - Sanskrit is certainly much older based on current data. But I do believe that Tamil is one of the oldest languages of India having been in continuous use. Modi-ji's 3000 year statement is not backed up by current data, but I wouldn't put it far off the mark: if the Tamil Sangam period is dated to 200 BCE onwards (2200 years BP), then the evolution of the language must have happened much before that. Not to mention development of other aspects of life so that enough people have time and resources to devote to arts and literature. So my guess is that Tamil is probably close to the 3000 year number Modi-ji mentioned, but not the oldest given Sanskrit and the epics written in it. This is the same way I regard the Indus-Saraswathi civilisation to be much older than what is thought - people don't suddenly wake up one day and decide to urbanize by building planned cities with a sacred ratio of buildings (4:3 ?), and standardized bricks over a humongous geographic area. The cities of this civilisation were the result of centuries, maybe even millennia of experimenting with various forms to living: nomadic, rural, urban, etc.

Now, if one wants to make an argument to convince people, being paternalistic and condescending is definitely not the way to go (hence my initial statement). Even people who are sympathetic to the argument will get irritated and more and start opposing; and not all of them would be EJs. No one likes to be told their culture is useless, which is pretty much the one-line summation of his posts. Curiously, this is the same argument EJs use in their propaganda to sell their ideas.

The approach in these posts reminds me of Rajaji's insistence on enforcing Hindi in the Madras province back in the day, and dismissing all criticism since he knew better. The result is there for all to see - DMK used this to become a political force, let EJ forces make inroads, etc. Now, neither the south is happy with the language policy, nor is the north interested in understanding/learning other languages. Anyway, OT for this thread.

Now having said all that, why are we discussing these posts here? What is the connection to TN politics?

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby Vayutuvan » 07 Oct 2019 19:11

arshyam avargal, I want to add another point. as per current dating, even samskrutam grammar, first such I might add, was invented in 300 bce by panini. of course, older grammarians were mentioned by both panini and another one.

so what PM Modi ji said is not far off the mark.

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Re: Kerala, Andhra and Tamil Nadu - news and strategy thread

Postby sudarshan » 07 Oct 2019 19:42

I think these datings of 300 BCE for Panini, 200 BCE for Sangam literature, etc. are also probably suspect. There was an agenda to fit all that into the 1500 BCE timeline for the Rg Veda.

Arshyam summarized my stance on the issue as well. I'd love for Tamil to be the oldest language in the world, but the evidence doesn't support that. And I'm okay with that. Sanskrit is my language as well, it's the language of all Indians.

Rsatchi - Tamilians are justly proud of Gangai Konda Cholapuram and the naval adventures of the Cholas. Being gatekeepers and resisting invasion is a defensive stance. Whereas the above are a proactive stance. Why knock the pride that Tamilians have in that? If the evidence shows that Kannada or Malayalam are older than Tamil, I'm okay with that as well, this is not some kind of measuring contest. Let's go with what evidence we have, rather than irrational pride - but in some other thread, not here.


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