Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Feb 2020 19:55

Indeed but how does K9 help in a two front war?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Feb 2020 20:19

no the overall no.s..it would help mount an offensive faster in desert areas...
jaisalmer bulge still has some buffer to threaten pakistan land centers..could be used in situations when we describe seriousness but not enough to wipe them forever

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 11 Feb 2020 23:34

ks_sachin wrote:Indeed but how does K9 help in a two front war?


It is not specific to a two front war, however a SPH is the real deal when it comes to very long range artillery. Because of the platform, it has built in support if we want to upgun, like how US is doing with it's M109.

US put a 58 caliber, 25 litre gun, giving it a range of 70KM! This allows it to out range an adversary's gun and provide counter battery fire. Not to mention the rapid loading and round carrying capacity. This also allows it to be deployed in depth, without having to traverse through difficult last mile positions.

We cannot easily provide such methods(major caliber jump & chamber volume) on a towed artillery, that easily.

I would buy some just to use them on the LoC attrition warfare, we have going with Pak.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 12 Feb 2020 01:52

nam wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Indeed but how does K9 help in a two front war?


It is not specific to a two front war, however a SPH is the real deal when it comes to very long range artillery. Because of the platform, it has built in support if we want to upgun, like how US is doing with it's M109.

US put a 58 caliber, 25 litre gun, giving it a range of 70KM! This allows it to out range an adversary's gun and provide counter battery fire. Not to mention the rapid loading and round carrying capacity. This also allows it to be deployed in depth, without having to traverse through difficult last mile positions.

We cannot easily provide such methods(major caliber jump & chamber volume) on a towed artillery, that easily.

I would buy some just to use them on the LoC attrition warfare, we have going with Pak.

Budget and priority...
Very long range arty...how is it a real deal at the moment and not really an imperative ATM..
For the LOC a wheeled SPH is better. Surely you have seen the LOC...as well as the Eastern borders

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 Feb 2020 06:32

What is the news about the ATHOS gun,towed arty system (155/52) of an Israeli design to be awarded/ built by the GCF Jabalpur where approx.1500 guns are to be built,the first 500 approx. direct imports.I am curious why another arty type is reqd. when we have Dhanush, K-9 , ATAGS,Sharang,etc. already in production.That too in such a large number dwarfing the desi design orders. We will now have 5 arty systems alone for the IA.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Feb 2020 17:59

how comfortable are you guys with the export of ATAGS to house of sauds, UAEs or Qataris? not sure if we would want pakis and their masters to get a peek into our gear ....and not to forget there's always a chance of facing our own weapons..

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 14 Feb 2020 18:17

Are u serious pandit ji.... we shuld be exporting like crazy and using that money for further r&d ... manufacturing...

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 14 Feb 2020 18:24

https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/38220

Indian media outlets report that Elbit Systems has won a tender to deliver its ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal estimated at over $1 Billion. However, Elbit has not yet notified the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange on such a deal.

“At the end of several rounds of tendering and trials since the beginning of the last decade, the Israeli company Elbit Systems has won the Indian Army’s 155 mm/52 caliber towed artillery gun competition, of which the import content alone is valued at over $1 Billion,” according to Army Recognition.

Elbit’s Indian partner for the tender is Bharat Forge. “The Elbit-Bharat Forge bid for the ATHOS 2052 howitzer was found significantly lower than that of French Nexter, which offered the Trajan gun jointly with its Indian partner Larsen & Toubro”, Indian Defense News reports.


report dated 4/2019

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 14 Feb 2020 18:47

manjgu wrote:Are u serious pandit ji.... we shuld be exporting like crazy and using that money for further r&d ... manufacturing...

see i dont disagree with your point of exporting..one just doesnt export weapons..they also export advisors strategy, ...but I do not have enough visibility and insights if we will be exporting to fight ourselves ..so it's not a rhetorical question a geniune pooch..i can imagine Saudis are US munna..and they have been coming to terms with India as India comes to terms with US terms. But if that is true..does that mean even house of saud has written off paki investment over the decades? may be it is not a question pertinent here...would let mods decide further..not keen to get second ban...

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 14 Feb 2020 20:41

i understand its a genuine pooch .... but we should be exporting like crazy... let their be a export version ( if possible for guns) but for electronics, radars, missiles etc its possible to have export versions which are downgraded versions. export export shuold be the mantra !!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 15 Feb 2020 03:05

Barath wrote:Toast of 'Make in India' but production line for Vajra artillery guns to run dry this year

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 998114.cms


The K9 Vajra is already seemingly making an impact on the IA's artillery strategies, looking at it's use in exercises and demos. Really hoping to see at least another follow on order for 50-60 if not 100 more K9 Vajra SPH. I can hardly believe that PA has more M-109 SPH systems than the IA, even with 100 K9 Vajras inducted! They have 150 M-109s.

I also believe that meeting deadlines and timelines within cost should be rewarded. That is the incentive for private sector players to deliver on time and within cost.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby wig » 17 Feb 2020 12:10

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/despi ... rael-42678

Despite indigenous guns’ success, country plans imports from Israel
excerpts
According to sources, so far there is no indication to have locally made guns to fill in the numbers for which negotiation is on. “Cost negotiation is on get 400 pieces from Elbit of Israel in a ready-to-use condition and the remaining 1,180 will be assembled here in India by the foreign supplier in a partnership with Indian partner Bharat Forge,” the source said.

and
The Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, drawn in 1999, is aimed at acquiring 2,800-3,000 155 mm/52-calibre guns of all kinds and 155 mm/39-calibre lightweight howitzers by 2027.

The projection includes 814 truck-mounted guns, 1,580 towed guns, 100 tracked self-propelled guns, 180 wheeled self-propelled guns and 145 ultra-light howitzers.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Feb 2020 18:05

^^i think these are political purchases to 'buy friends' ..or may be in case a ww type scenario breaks for a long war we can tap into others' manufacturing bases....

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 17 Feb 2020 19:17

That is just insane logic. What exactly are the Israelis buying from us to buy our friendship? I despair looking at the procurement insanity the Indian Armed Forces and MoD inflict on vitally important defense of the realm.

ArjunPandit wrote:^^i think these are political purchases to 'buy friends' ..or may be in case a ww type scenario breaks for a long war we can tap into others' manufacturing bases....

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Feb 2020 19:20

Arun.prabhu wrote:That is just insane logic. What exactly are the Israelis buying from us to buy our friendship? I despair looking at the procurement insanity the Indian Armed Forces and MoD inflict on vitally important defense of the realm.

ArjunPandit wrote:^^i think these are political purchases to 'buy friends' ..or may be in case a ww type scenario breaks for a long war we can tap into others' manufacturing bases....

i didnt say it will be sane or logical...other than this i can't justify the purchase ...sadly BRF doesnt have a cry emoticon...may be the site was set up before Arjun (tank) days....

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 17 Feb 2020 19:24

Yep. Looking at the plight of our various weapons programs, disgust pretty much describes my feelings towards the Indian Armed Forces at this point.

ArjunPandit wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:That is just insane logic. What exactly are the Israelis buying from us to buy our friendship? I despair looking at the procurement insanity the Indian Armed Forces and MoD inflict on vitally important defense of the realm.


i didnt say it will be sane or logical...other than this i can't justify the purchase ...sadly BRF doesnt have a cry emoticon...may be the site was set up before Arjun (tank) days....

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Feb 2020 19:28

Arun.prabhu wrote:Yep. Looking at the plight of our various weapons programs, disgust pretty much describes my feelings towards the Indian Armed Forces at this point.

while i have same feelings, I still believe there would be some who have country in their heart like we over here have and are no less patriotic than us..and are taking the decision in best of interest of our motherland...

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 17 Feb 2020 19:48

Arjun overlooked, LUH has IOC but no orders, Tejas still struck with just 40-odd solid orders with the rest remaining unsigned. MMRCA to compete with Tejas... baba Kalyani bought BAE’s barrel factory, packed it over to India and created guns out of his own initiative and we give his guns the cold shoulder and give orders to Israel. LCH and Apache... the list goes on. We are lucky we have the Himalayas between us and China because with this sort of malign action, we would do unto ourselves before the enemy does anything unto us.

ArjunPandit wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:Yep. Looking at the plight of our various weapons programs, disgust pretty much describes my feelings towards the Indian Armed Forces at this point.

while i have same feelings, I still believe there would be some who have country in their heart like we over here have and are no less patriotic than us..and are taking the decision in best of interest of our motherland...

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 17 Feb 2020 21:42

Arun.prabhu wrote:Arjun overlooked, LUH has IOC but no orders, Tejas still struck with just 40-odd solid orders with the rest remaining unsigned.


It looks to me they are trying to establish 1-2 additional sources apart from existing local one, for items like helicopters, artillery, assault rifles and light fighters, SAM systems, armoured vehicles and ammunition.

First procure nos., then quietly ramp up local production (oh ye evil yindoos!)

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 18 Feb 2020 02:58

Arun.prabhu wrote:That is just insane logic. What exactly are the Israelis buying from us to buy our friendship? I despair looking at the procurement insanity the Indian Armed Forces and MoD inflict on vitally important defense of the realm.

ArjunPandit wrote:^^i think these are political purchases to 'buy friends' ..or may be in case a ww type scenario breaks for a long war we can tap into others' manufacturing bases....


+1. We need to stop insinuating a deeper geopolitical play every time we see similar foreign purchases. These insinuations are just that and they cannot be verified, so it reduces the discussion to a gossip. ATAGS, Dhanush, Arjun MK1 and MK1A, Tejas MK1/MK1A, LUH, are all starving for orders despite them being proven world class. Its hard to sugercoat any of this.

Plus, I don't get the logic that the world's largest importer of arms needs to curry favor from buyers. It should be the other way around where foreign OEMs should be cutting us deals at the best prices to obtain our money.
Last edited by Nikhil T on 18 Feb 2020 03:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Nikhil T » 18 Feb 2020 03:07

dinesh_kimar wrote:
It looks to me they are trying to establish 1-2 additional sources apart from existing local one, for items like helicopters, artillery, assault rifles and light fighters, SAM systems, armoured vehicles and ammunition.

First procure nos., then quietly ramp up local production (oh ye evil yindoos!)


Would it not be prudent to establish the "additional source" as well locally instead of abroad? What stops us from having both Tata and Bharat Forge produce the winning ATAGS design in parallel, thereby establishing the additional source.

From this 2018 report, it sounded like DRDO had told MoD that it was fine with Army importing 480 pieces of Elbit Athos 2052, but not to have local production of 1000+ pieces because that would eat up the entire marketshare for ATAGS. However, from today's report, MoD is negotiating the 1000+ local production with Elbit.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 18 Feb 2020 06:06

wig wrote:https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/despite-indigenous-guns-success-country-plans-imports-from-israel-42678

Despite indigenous guns’ success, country plans imports from Israel
excerpts
According to sources, so far there is no indication to have locally made guns to fill in the numbers for which negotiation is on. “Cost negotiation is on get 400 pieces from Elbit of Israel in a ready-to-use condition and the remaining 1,180 will be assembled here in India by the foreign supplier in a partnership with Indian partner Bharat Forge,” the source said.

and
The Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, drawn in 1999, is aimed at acquiring 2,800-3,000 155 mm/52-calibre guns of all kinds and 155 mm/39-calibre lightweight howitzers by 2027.

The projection includes 814 truck-mounted guns, 1,580 towed guns, 100 tracked self-propelled guns, 180 wheeled self-propelled guns and 145 ultra-light howitzers.

Every time one believes the hump has been crossed, a new googly comes up! :-?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 18 Feb 2020 06:27

What existing local one? Having pieces in the lab is not the same as an established production line supplying weapon systems for soldiers in the field. I like this logic.let us outsource all our satellite launches to France, America, Russia and Japan so that we reduce the risks that depending on a single vendor forces on us. We’ll only use ISRO if we exhaust the capacity of all others because ISRO Will always be there, but without our business, the other programs face a small risk that they’ll stop being economically viable and be shutdown.

Sorry about the diatribe, but I haven’t ever felt this much disgust before! When the east India company faced the armies of our rulers on the field, they had nothing but praise for the courage of the soldiers and nothi but disdain for the command abilities and strategic acumen for all but a few of our generals and staff. That still hasn’t changed!

Buying friendships! Screwdriver Giri Make in India! Bah! Next genius move would be to start sourcing from Pakistan and China because they are geographically next door and move HAL production to China because we don’t want china to bomb HAL and destroy the production lines if there is a war! That’ll teach the Chinese!

dinesh_kimar wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:Arjun overlooked, LUH has IOC but no orders, Tejas still struck with just 40-odd solid orders with the rest remaining unsigned.


It looks to me they are trying to establish 1-2 additional sources apart from existing local one, for items like helicopters, artillery, assault rifles and light fighters, SAM systems, armoured vehicles and ammunition.

First procure nos., then quietly ramp up local production (oh ye evil yindoos!)

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 18 Feb 2020 07:41

++1, Arun.prabhu

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 18 Feb 2020 09:26

Start a twitter/social media campaign against athos procurement. Tag Namo too. Send him the direct feedback on twitter, email etc. Tag honorable RM too.

This purchase should be opposed on all costs. Indigenous purchases should be given priority even if foreign product is L1.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 18 Feb 2020 09:50

How on earth is this justifiable? We have two at least three world class products in 155/52 category!!!

There is no better strategic investment than investing in indigenous capability. The USAF could have easily chosen the T-50 trainer. It is a proven product. Ifry would have kept the South Koreas happy too. But, they chose the Boeing T-7, a plane with just a prototype!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby alexis » 18 Feb 2020 10:04

kit wrote:https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/38220

Indian media outlets report that Elbit Systems has won a tender to deliver its ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal estimated at over $1 Billion. However, Elbit has not yet notified the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange on such a deal.

“At the end of several rounds of tendering and trials since the beginning of the last decade, the Israeli company Elbit Systems has won the Indian Army’s 155 mm/52 caliber towed artillery gun competition, of which the import content alone is valued at over $1 Billion,” according to Army Recognition.

Elbit’s Indian partner for the tender is Bharat Forge. “The Elbit-Bharat Forge bid for the ATHOS 2052 howitzer was found significantly lower than that of French Nexter, which offered the Trajan gun jointly with its Indian partner Larsen & Toubro”, Indian Defense News reports.


report dated 4/2019


This makes no sense.

I am sure this deal will be in the news later for corruption! I hope better sense prevails and it doesnt go ahead.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 18 Feb 2020 12:16

Indranil wrote:How on earth is this justifiable? We have two at least three world class products in 155/52 category!!!

There is no better strategic investment than investing in indigenous capability. The USAF could have easily chosen the T-50 trainer. It is a proven product. Ifry would have kept the South Koreas happy too. But, they chose the Boeing T-7, a plane with just a prototype!


And look at the irony here. One of the rumored nominated agencies for Athos production which is GCF jabalpur has its own indigenous version in Dhanush(both 45 and 52 calibers). If these news reports are true, I mean can the Indian strategic establishment be so bereft of strategic vision. This is nothing but scam. Hope PMO and Defence ministry both take note of this and intervene in this matter in favour of indigenous products.

Nahin to kal ko ye log L1 ke chakkar me pura desh hi bech denge.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 18 Feb 2020 13:52

How is L1 even applicable for product categories that has been designed by DRDO and also for weapons that are available in India.

PS: this ATHOS news is a Lifafa.
Last edited by Pratyush on 18 Feb 2020 14:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Feb 2020 14:07

We will see I suspect this is more Lifafa, I will be very disappointed if this deal goes through

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 18 Feb 2020 15:40

Aditya_V wrote:We will see I suspect this is more Lifafa, I will be very disappointed if this deal goes through


Let us hope for the best. Some overzealous twitterati have already started abusing Indian Army which is extremely shameful. Defence ministry should clarify on this issue to prevent presstitutes on israeli salary from meddling the matters even more.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Feb 2020 15:52

I guess that's the idea, we have seen this a few times over the last few years. Information is not coming out of GOI. So fishing through media is done.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 18 Feb 2020 16:21

KSA are a lucrative market, but we better make our peace with the fact that the Pakistanis will have access to the guns, that the saudis may in fact ship the guns to Pakistan for use against us in a war and that the guns will be used in Yemen (which I don’t have an objection to as we need our weapons tested in the field under wartime conditions.) of course, without our “advisors” Operating those guns in the field or non-Arab mercenaries, the saudis will use the guns hard, use them wrong and earn our pride and joy a lot of undeserved bad press.

ArjunPandit wrote:
manjgu wrote:Are u serious pandit ji.... we shuld be exporting like crazy and using that money for further r&d ... manufacturing...

see i dont disagree with your point of exporting..one just doesnt export weapons..they also export advisors strategy, ...but I do not have enough visibility and insights if we will be exporting to fight ourselves ..so it's not a rhetorical question a geniune pooch..i can imagine Saudis are US munna..and they have been coming to terms with India as India comes to terms with US terms. But if that is true..does that mean even house of saud has written off paki investment over the decades? may be it is not a question pertinent here...would let mods decide further..not keen to get second ban...

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 18 Feb 2020 18:48

The Saudi's are showing interest in Kalyani Bharat-52 Howitzer and India is asking Kalyani to produce a gun in collaboration with Elbit!!!
The electronics and targeting for the ATAGS guns is ready and developed in house by DRDO along with the TATA SED and Kalyani and for the guns to be procured for the Indian Army, we want the electronics to come from Elbit!!

The electronics and targeting systems for the Dhanush howitzers are developed in house and are much better than the original bofors guns. The Dhanush-52 prototype is also ready.

ATAGS prototypes are ready and being tested. Dhanush-45 being produced and inducted. Dhanush-52 prototype is ready. Prototype of Bharat-52 howitzer from Kalyani has been ready for some time and yet, we are entertaining offers for a joint venture program with the Israeli's and French is just mind boggling.
This doesn't happen anywhere else in the world. If this really goes through, the way it being reported, I will probably quit BRF after a good 20 years. Can't take it anymore.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Srutayus » 18 Feb 2020 19:23

This is a legacy procurement process that started in 2011-2012 that has slowly wound its way through the MoD.
The difference now is the presence of potential indigenous alternatives. Note though that the Kalyani product has not been through the testing cycle yet, and the ATAGS has some months left for user validation.
Hope they do with this what happened with the Spike. But that also means that we will repose faith on systems not fully certified yet: the Kalyani- Bharat-52, the ATAGS and the OFB 52 cal.

By all means advocate for the indigenous products. But do not abuse the Army before understanding the context.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 18 Feb 2020 19:58

Srutayus wrote:This is a legacy procurement process that started in 2011-2012 that has slowly wound its way through the MoD.
The difference now is the presence of potential indigenous alternatives. Note though that the Kalyani product has not been through the testing cycle yet, and the ATAGS has some months left for user validation.
Hope they do with this what happened with the Spike. But that also means that we will repose faith on systems not fully certified yet: the Kalyani- Bharat-52, the ATAGS and the OFB 52 cal.

By all means advocate for the indigenous products. But do not abuse the Army before understanding the context.


Totally agree with you on not abusing Indian Army. Social media experts are extremely impatient though. Yes there are import dalals who have infiltrated our procurement system. But abusing the whole army. Not done.

However yours truly has worked on dozens of tenders of various agencies. Almost all the tenders that I have worked upon have a specific clause that stipulates that the tendering agency has complete right to cancel the tender at any given time without giving any justification whatsoever. So saying that this is a legacy procurement process doesn't really cut it. Infact this tender should have been cancelled a long time before, once it was apparent that indigenous options were in advanced stage of development. Dragging this process for god knows what reason is not fair to the client i.e the Army and definitely not fair to the nation. It is a slap on the face of Make in India movement.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 18 Feb 2020 20:18

If I understand you right, the Army made a decision to procure a decade back. The procurement process took a decade - can we say procurement abortion of a process here? - and in the meantime, we built up quite an artillery industry domestically. And yet, the army continued to negotiate for the Israeli guns. And now, ignoring the domestic surplus of new artillery systems developed within the country, they want to purchase the Israeli guns.

That makes it all right. I beg pardon for abusing the army... Well, actually, I won't.

The abuse is well deserved because we have world class artillery developed in house. One can enter into a store, peruse the merchandise and walk away without spending a paise. It's the buyer's prerogative to buy or not to buy. At a time when the defense budget is allowed to grow by a pittance when capital expenses thanks to foreign purchases are soaring, when there are domestic alternatives that are better by far, going ahead with the foreign purchase is a crime that has no defense. Period. End. Dot.

India expects the Staff to not be dinosaurs about decisions. As circumstances change, as local MIC develops weapon systems that fit our defense needs, the Army needs to stop their foreign contracts and shift procurement to the domestic alternative. That way lies strategic independence. Shouting Geronimo and jumping to buy foreign systems because we wasted a decade to downlist a vendor and negotiate a contract is not acceptable. Not now. Not ever. The Army must buy Indian. Make in India doesn't mean screwdriver girl. It means support and inculcate R&D into our MIC's DNA, establish and nurture domestic value chain for our MIC, build the skilled labor to design and produce the next generation of the weapon system to the umpteenth generation, and using those weapons to their utmost potential in defense of the realm. Period. End. Dot.

Srutayus wrote:This is a legacy procurement process that started in 2011-2012 that has slowly wound its way through the MoD.
The difference now is the presence of potential indigenous alternatives. Note though that the Kalyani product has not been through the testing cycle yet, and the ATAGS has some months left for user validation.
Hope they do with this what happened with the Spike. But that also means that we will repose faith on systems not fully certified yet: the Kalyani- Bharat-52, the ATAGS and the OFB 52 cal.

By all means advocate for the indigenous products. But do not abuse the Army before understanding the context.

Srutayus
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Srutayus » 18 Feb 2020 23:54

Arun.prabhu wrote:If I understand you right, the Army made a decision to procure a decade back. The procurement process took a decade - can we say procurement abortion of a process here? - and in the meantime, we built up quite an artillery industry domestically. And yet, the army continued to negotiate for the Israeli guns. And now, ignoring the domestic surplus of new artillery systems developed within the country, they want to purchase the Israeli guns.

That makes it all right. I beg pardon for abusing the army... Well, actually, I won't.

The abuse is well deserved because we have world class artillery developed in house. One can enter into a store, peruse the merchandise and walk away without spending a paise. It's the buyer's prerogative to buy or not to buy. At a time when the defense budget is allowed to grow by a pittance when capital expenses thanks to foreign purchases are soaring, when there are domestic alternatives that are better by far, going ahead with the foreign purchase is a crime that has no defense. Period. End. Dot.

India expects the Staff to not be dinosaurs about decisions. As circumstances change, as local MIC develops weapon systems that fit our defense needs, the Army needs to stop their foreign contracts and shift procurement to the domestic alternative. That way lies strategic independence. Shouting Geronimo and jumping to buy foreign systems because we wasted a decade to downlist a vendor and negotiate a contract is not acceptable. Not now. Not ever. The Army must buy Indian. Make in India doesn't mean screwdriver girl. It means support and inculcate R&D into our MIC's DNA, establish and nurture domestic value chain for our MIC, build the skilled labor to design and produce the next generation of the weapon system to the umpteenth generation, and using those weapons to their utmost potential in defense of the realm. Period. End. Dot.

Your criticisms are very valid, I agree with all the points you raise, and I am certainly not targeting you personally by any means. I do hope that this procurement exercise goes the Spike way and our needs are met wholly indigenously, and I hope for expeditious completion of our domestic development efforts.

However, this malaise lies in the institutional preferences for imports nurtured by a long history with state owned firms, as well as with the lack of military representation in the MoD, the bureaucratic maze in the MoD procurement process etc. All this is currently being addressed both with institutional reforms and with changing institutional attitudes, and our criticism should be on point. We start to abuse when we react emotionally by throwing around allegations of corruption etc. This is counterproductive. It is fear of these type of allegations that leads bureaucrats to not deviate from the script even if warranted by changed circumstances.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 19 Feb 2020 07:02

The CDS is a member of the DAC as well as the Defence Planning Committee. He has the mandate to optimize the resources used by the military. He has already said that indigenous products is one of his priorities, apart from 'jointness' etc. It is time for him to step in and nip this Elbit process right now. It might have been a legacy process but there is absolutely no justification for this.

Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 19 Feb 2020 08:15

I think that we are getting our chaddis in a bunch for no reason. If you pay attention to Elbit and it's reporting in the Israeli stock exchanges. They have not reported about this to the stock exchanges. Which I believe to be a regulatory requirement for the company.

Also this is the second time in 3 years we have heard about the impending purchase. But both times with different Indian partners.

Thirdly, IIRC, when DRDO convinced the MOD to wait for ATAGS. The tenders for procurement of towed guns was scrapped. With interim requirement to be met by DHANUSH 45 and subsequent 52 cal versions produced by OFB.

We have seen a mounted 52 cal piece from OFB in 8*8 format as well which is easily transferable to the towed guns.

All the above leads me to conclude that this is a lifafa in the absence of a signed contract.


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