India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 07 Sep 2020 07:53

Have started a new thread as eralier one was over 200 pages.

Here is link to the last page of previous thread.

Remember all previous admonitions stay in place!!!

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&start=8040


#BharatMataKiJai

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 07 Sep 2020 08:32

The proposed opening of Pangong Tso for tourists by China is to establish 'sovereignty' through backdoor as the Pakis tried to do at Siachen in the early 80s.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby LakshmanPST » 07 Sep 2020 08:34

williams wrote:So based on whatever is available in the OS, the spot where the Chinese have occupied is 18 km inside the LAC. It blocks us access to PP 10, 11, 12 and 13 from Burtse camp. The points especially 12, and 13 provides direct line of sight on to DSDBO road. More than access to tanks, this provides the chinese guns, more accurate guidance to target DSDBO supply route. There are some heights that IA can occupy to have their sight trained on the bottle neck area, but it is three or four times difficult to hike and supply those heights. We should push them out now, if we need to keep that road safe in the winter.

Image


Sir, the image you posted is wrong... It was posted in the thread before as well... They placed PP12 and PP13 right on GE LAC...
I have posted about a relatively more accurate image of Bottleneck area here--->

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2449467#p2449467

And explained the situation here (which is based on older posts from gurus and media articles)--->
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2449467#p2449490

PP12 and PP13 won't provide any direct line of sight to DS-DBO road... They are nearly 15 km away from the road...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby williams » 07 Sep 2020 09:10

LakshmanPST wrote:
williams wrote:So based on whatever is available in the OS, the spot where the Chinese have occupied is 18 km inside the LAC. It blocks us access to PP 10, 11, 12 and 13 from Burtse camp. The points especially 12, and 13 provides direct line of sight on to DSDBO road. More than access to tanks, this provides the chinese guns, more accurate guidance to target DSDBO supply route. There are some heights that IA can occupy to have their sight trained on the bottle neck area, but it is three or four times difficult to hike and supply those heights. We should push them out now, if we need to keep that road safe in the winter.

Image


Sir, the image you posted is wrong... It was posted in the thread before as well... They placed PP12 and PP13 right on GE LAC...
I have posted about a relatively more accurate image of Bottleneck area here--->

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2449467#p2449467

And explained the situation here (which is based on older posts from gurus and media articles)--->
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2449467#p2449490

PP12 and PP13 won't provide any direct line of sight to DS-DBO road... They are nearly 15 km away from the road...


Thanks for the correction and explanation, sir. That clarifies a lot of things

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Hari Nair » 07 Sep 2020 09:35

One point on logistics problem for the Great Hans in general area of Spanggur :
- Almost all lakes there are brackish, being endorheic.
- This means they have to tap into some fresh water sources which are not easy to come by.
- This means even drinking water needs to be hauled across fairly large distances, making their logistics line more complex.
Last edited by Hari Nair on 07 Sep 2020 09:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby rajpa » 07 Sep 2020 09:35

SSridhar wrote:The proposed opening of Pangong Tso for tourists by China is to establish 'sovereignty' through backdoor as the Pakis tried to do at Siachen in the early 80s.


also gives a sense that joint strategy is happening in the Pork-Shakkar alliance.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby sanjaykumar » 07 Sep 2020 09:41

Membrane filtration technology is available to turn brackish water into potable water. Further stills at that attitude are more effecticient as the boiling point of water is lower.

There should be no need to transport water.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby manjgu » 07 Sep 2020 09:49

sanjaykumar wrote:Membrane filtration technology is available to turn brackish water into potable water. Further stills at that attitude are more effecticient as the boiling point of water is lower.

There should be no need to transport water.


Plus the snow?? can be melted as well ...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby manjgu » 07 Sep 2020 09:52

and isnt the indus also there albeit a bit far away

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby abhik » 07 Sep 2020 11:17

SSridhar wrote:The proposed opening of Pangong Tso for tourists by China is to establish 'sovereignty' through backdoor as the Pakis tried to do at Siachen in the early 80s.

Pangong extends nearly 100km towards their side of the LAC to rutog, I don't think the report is clear on where exactly they have opened up for tourists, I highly double its anywhere close to the finger areas, which are now littered with PLA encampments.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Anoop » 07 Sep 2020 11:48

sanjaykumar wrote:Membrane filtration technology is available to turn brackish water into potable water. Further stills at that attitude are more effecticient as the boiling point of water is lower.

There should be no need to transport water.


Neither of these are feasible options for large quantities in those locations. Running RO systems requires significant electric power for which you need large generators, which require large fuel supply. Might as well use those fuel trucks to bring potable water. Stills require fuel too, plus cooling media for condensation. Could work on a small scale to supply a cut off post, but not 1000s of troops. If these were feasible, we would not need porters to haul jerry cans.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby kumarn » 07 Sep 2020 11:53

Hari Nair wrote:One point on logistics problem for the Great Hans in general area of Spanggur :
- Almost all lakes there are brackish, being endorheic.
- This means they have to tap into some fresh water sources which are not easy to come by.
- This means even drinking water needs to be hauled across fairly large distances, making their logistics line more complex.


Water in pang gong lake on the eastern side is fresh, and it supports some animals. As we go west towards the Indian side, it turns brackish.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby vimal » 07 Sep 2020 12:14

Since we are discussing freshwater sources in the TAR area, I found this article very informative and gives a perspective on why China needs Tibet. China is one of the driest country on the planet with 1/3 of the country arid. Controlling the source of water from Tibet gives it a massive strategic advantage.

With more than a quarter of its land classified as desert, China is one of the planet’s most arid regions. Beijing is besieged each spring by raging dust storms born in Inner Mongolia, where hundreds of square miles of grasslands are turning to desert each year. In other parts of the nation, say diplomats and economic development specialists, Chinese rivers are either too polluted or too filled with silt to provide all of China’s 1.3 billion people with adequate supplies of freshwater.

Chinese authorities have long had their eyes on Tibet’s water resources. They have proposed building dams for hydropower and spending billions of dollars to build a system of canals to tap water from the Himalayan snowmelt and glaciers and transport it hundreds of miles north and east to the country’s farm and industrial regions.


https://www.circleofblue.org/2008/world ... g%20others.
Last edited by vimal on 07 Sep 2020 13:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 07 Sep 2020 12:19

abhik wrote:
SSridhar wrote:The proposed opening of Pangong Tso for tourists by China is to establish 'sovereignty' through backdoor as the Pakis tried to do at Siachen in the early 80s.

Pangong extends nearly 100km towards their side of the LAC to rutog, I don't think the report is clear on where exactly they have opened up for tourists, I highly double its anywhere close to the finger areas, which are now littered with PLA encampments.

abhik, as far as I know, the entire Eastern Ladakh/Gosthana as defined by Kun Lun watershed belongs to India. Hardly matters it is Finger 8 or elsewhere.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2020 12:40

Unusually quiet from the Chini side, for what is suppose to be a "invasion" for the amm Sugar(Chini) Xi.

7 days of Brigadier level talks till yesterday. Obviously they are asking us to leave. But there must be something else cooking. Chinis are probably asking for something very specific, which we are refusing.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby abhik » 07 Sep 2020 12:46

SSridhar wrote:
abhik wrote:Pangong extends nearly 100km towards their side of the LAC to rutog, I don't think the report is clear on where exactly they have opened up for tourists, I highly double its anywhere close to the finger areas, which are now littered with PLA encampments.

abhik, as far as I know, the entire Eastern Ladakh/Gosthana as defined by Kun Lun watershed belongs to India. Hardly matters it is Finger 8 or elsewhere.


That would mean extending our borders (not just LAC) by as much as 100km in places - which I agree with since the current LAC and Border do not make much sense strategically (being defensible or creating buffer zones). And past Dogra and Ladakh kingdoms in the past have ruled these areas during different periods, unfortunately we got hung up with some lines drawn by the Brits.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2020 12:48

Each side must be asking the other side what they will not concede. That is not noteworthy in itself.

What is noteworthy is that from the very beginning, India side was all for talks and more talks while the Chinese were for less and less talk and towards the end they were very condescending about it. The re-adjustment executed by the IA on the LAC seems to have increased the Chinese enthusiasm for talks.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby csharma » 07 Sep 2020 13:07

Looks like Beijing wants some action on the ground.

https://twitter.com/AmyKazmin/status/13 ... 5421215744

IYMI: Yun Sun of @Stimson_EAsia
tells @FinancialTimes
that Beijing feels "a rough consensus on the line of control can only be settled on the ground.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby csharma » 07 Sep 2020 13:29

Based on that FT article, the crux of China's problem seems to India developing defence infrastructure in Ladakh. That is why they are making new claims to affect the infrastructure development.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Anoop » 07 Sep 2020 13:35

csharma wrote:Looks like Beijing wants some action on the ground.

https://twitter.com/AmyKazmin/status/13 ... 5421215744


More pearls of wisdom from Ms Sun in Wonderland:
Yun Sun, director of the China Program at the Stimson Center in Washington, said Beijing had grown frustrated after years of talks that failed to make progress on a mutually defined line of control, while India developed infrastructure in areas that China considered its own....

“But what the Chinese found out is that the Indian negotiating position was ‘what’s mine is mine, and what’s yours is negotiable’.”

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Anoop » 07 Sep 2020 13:38

csharma wrote:That is why they are making new claims to affect the infrastructure development.


Yes, they are certainly affecting it. They are hastening it. This is the problem with the Chinese playbook....it works until it doesn't.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Mollick.R » 07 Sep 2020 13:42

Sorry for the OT, but couldn't resist posting it.............

Requesting members to add and edit the definition to purify the concept more.......

Readjustment :- Noun, Verb.

First Documented Use /Origin :- By Indian Army, around 31st August 2020 at Depsang sector of Ladakh :D

Meaning

When you are found to be immersed in complacency of your battle unproven toys, surveillance gizmos etc & your conscript army consisting of lazy "Little Emperors" wakes up one sudden morning and finds practically borders are redrawn by Hundred of MEN with B@LLS made of steel and they are just sitting ducks inside their AC Hyperbaric Tents.

When your all talk and no glory conscript army made of Gayish lazy "Little Emperors" are served a dose of its own medicine "Salami Slicing" with Indian Tadka and your DM suddenly is found to be over interested in Meeting "Kadi Ninda" guy in Natasha / Vodka Land and photographed with a face showing fear of being sent to reeducation camp.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Bradmins, how to add this Readjustment thingyy to BRF dictionary ????

PS:- Nanha abdul thinks after "Ghar wapsi" this "Readjustment" word is also a keeper

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby abhik » 07 Sep 2020 13:49

The 10K PLA troops reportedly in Spanggur is quite a bit more than I expected (don't know if this includes reinforcements if any or was the number from the beginning). The reporting from the beginning talked about 2 motorised divisions (though the analysis was that that the Chinese will need to bring 2 more divisions for any serious attack, and those are available to join if needed). From open source information, we the following PLA deployments:
SSN: Camps south of Kunlun along G219 and near DBO along Chipchap river. The numbers near "bottle neck" area are not clear till now.
Galwan: Probably at least a brigade strength along the river.
Gogra/HotSprings: Gogra area has sprawling camps spread out nearly 10km to the rear, with a good number at Hotsprings.
Pangong: The most well known one, could be the same size as Spanggur (10k?)
Spanggur: 10k (i.e. 2 brigades)?
Dhemchok and Chumar: Much smaller camps have been observed here (may be more defensive in nature).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 07 Sep 2020 13:53

csharma wrote:Based on that FT article, the crux of China's problem seems to India developing defence infrastructure in Ladakh. That is why they are making new claims to affect the infrastructure development.

I believe that Ms. Yun Sun in Stimson articulates the PRC viewpoint in a particularly hawkish way. We have seen her articles before.

I do not believe that infrastructure is the issue. DSDBO was a fait-accompli, completed last year itself.

There is a list of reasons, the Chinese have multiple objectives that even if one or two succeed that was successful enough for them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 07 Sep 2020 13:59

abhik wrote:The 10K PLA troops reportedly in Spanggur is quite a bit more than I expected . . . .

Where did you get that (and other data) from? Any link?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby RamSuresh » 07 Sep 2020 14:06

[quote="vimal"]Since we are discussing freshwater sources in the TAR area, I found this article very informative and gives a perspective on why China needs Tibet. China is one of the driest country on the planet with 1/3 of the country arid. Controlling the source of water from Tibet gives it a massive strategic advantage.

[quote]

If they exit occupied lands of Tibet and Mongolia, China will not be arid. The logic that is being quoted is circular logic

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby csharma » 07 Sep 2020 14:08

SSridhar, yes your list makes sense. Most likely they want to show that they are the boss of ASIA

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby amar_p » 07 Sep 2020 14:15

Only they picked a time when the wrong Govt is in place. It will now be for each step forward, three steps back :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2020 14:20

We should be more realistic in our commentary.

We should be able to defend against any encroachment but I don't expect GOI to push the Chinese back to recover any major territory. Some re-alignment of the LAC can be expected but nothing beyond that.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby amar_p » 07 Sep 2020 14:51

Will that make China change its behaviour? They will be at it again in year at the most, and if not in the same spot, elsewhere.

As I've been saying from day 1 of this standoff, unless India's response is punitive and preemptive, its neighbours will not let her be.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2020 15:01

You expect China to change behaviour! Not with their current setup in China and Indian weakness wrt China.

While everyone is free to dream about "punitive and pre-emptive" response GOI has to more realistic and base its response on realities as they exist on the ground.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby rsingh » 07 Sep 2020 15:11

Hari Nair wrote:One point on logistics problem for the Great Hans in general area of Spanggur :
- Almost all lakes there are brackish, being endorheic.
- This means they have to tap into some fresh water sources which are not easy to come by.
- This means even drinking water needs to be hauled across fairly large distances, making their logistics line more complex.

Desalination plant is not expensive. But what stops us from sending Tourists to overwhelm the place? Chinese will be putting up papadam and maggi stalls.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 07 Sep 2020 15:26

pankajs wrote:We should be more realistic in our commentary.

We should be able to defend against any encroachment but I don't expect GOI to push the Chinese back to recover any major territory. Some re-alignment of the LAC can be expected but nothing beyond that.

We are not debating whether India will be able to push the Chinese out and reclaim the entire area or not. India cannot renounce its claim for the entire Gosthana and simply accept the status-quo, even if currently only some re-alignment is possible. Period.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby pushkar.bhat » 07 Sep 2020 16:57

abhik wrote:The 10K PLA troops reportedly in Spanggur is quite a bit more than I expected (don't know if this includes reinforcements if any or was the number from the beginning). The reporting from the beginning talked about 2 motorised divisions (though the analysis was that that the Chinese will need to bring 2 more divisions for any serious attack, and those are available to join if needed). From open source information, we the following PLA deployments:
SSN: Camps south of Kunlun along G219 and near DBO along Chipchap river. The numbers near "bottle neck" area are not clear till now.
Galwan: Probably at least a brigade strength along the river.
Gogra/HotSprings: Gogra area has sprawling camps spread out nearly 10km to the rear, with a good number at Hotsprings.
Pangong: The most well known one, could be the same size as Spanggur (10k?)
Spanggur: 10k (i.e. 2 brigades)?
Dhemchok and Chumar: Much smaller camps have been observed here (may be more defensive in nature).


If the Chinese have 10k forces in Spanggur then we should sit this through the winters. They will not dare to move anything in Depsang DBO Sector else the Indian can slaughter the little emperors.

All that we need to do is keep them locked up and not allow anything to move in or out. If the boys get hungry and cold accept surrenders and feed them Gobi Manchurian in Jabalpur. Ensure that Red Cross gets the mail of their well being to their families and care packages back to the boys. Emperor Eleven cannot afford to have 10K boys eating Gobi Manchurian India.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2020 17:05

GOI has been asking for status quo for all these past weeks plus GOI had many opportunity to push the Chinese out ..

1. When the initial ingress was noticed and the scope of aggression was understood. They did not. Perhaps we were not prepared. Fair enough.

2. When Galwan happened and the Chinese gave India a perfect excuse with their hyper-aggression. India did not seize the initiative but again spoke of restoring the status quo. IIRC, India by now had mirror deployed.

3. After the full extent of the treachery was played out for the world to see in Pangang tso area GOI still wanted "just" a restoration of status quo. By now I am certain the Mirror deployment was complete.

4. GOI, frustrated by the Chinese unwillingness, planned to take action. After adequate preparation, it launched an operation to seal gaps and occupy commanding heights. While some reports tell us that GOI has crossed the LAC at some places some reports tell us that GOI has not infact stepped across the LAC anywhere. Be that as may be, what has become clear after the latest operation is as follows ...

4a. GOI, even if it has crossed the LAC at a few places, it has not gone in to occupy territory but only to secure a few heights. Still a defensive posture only.

4b. After ALL the preparation, double and triple checking plans, checking reserves and store, reinforcing defenses, plugging gaps, occupying heights, etc etc AND catching the Chinese by surprise, GOI did NOT "aim" to capturing any major Chinese "held" territory. By now we are reading reports on this forum that the Chinese are re-enforcing their positions.

IFFF the "ever" GOI wanted to "push the Chinese back 3 steps for every step they had crept forward", this was the time! Intent to hold ground and give battle shown but NO intent to push the Chinese back by 3x.

All indications are that GOI, in the current standoff, just aims to restore status quo +/- some tactical adjustment to the LAC. That is my reading.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby rajpa » 07 Sep 2020 17:12

Should harassing their logistics and supply lines now.. we should keep pushing some way or the other.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby abhik » 07 Sep 2020 17:33

SSridhar wrote:
abhik wrote:The 10K PLA troops reportedly in Spanggur is quite a bit more than I expected . . . .

Where did you get that (and other data) from? Any link?

The 10k number is from this article: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr
The PLA presence at different places is from open source sat images (low resolution ones from sentinel that are updated every ~ 5 day), and select closed source high resolution images (from Planet Inc etc.) shared by certain "OSINT" handles. Of course a lot of it is based on number of "Pink tents" that are highly visible, and only a professional will be able separate the wheat from the chaff - so standard disclaimers apply.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby pankajs » 07 Sep 2020 17:46

I myself haven't read the report but someones commentary on the same. Tweet has link to the report

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 0403975174
More than 10000 PLA troops alongwith ICVs present near flashpoint of Southern Pangong to Spanggur & Rechin La.

Most dangerous buildup since the Galwan incident.

Most mobilisation done after India took control of Strategic Peaks.

1. GOI obviously knew how China would react after the taking over of the strategic peaks. Still they did not per-empt the Chinese and go the whole hog.

2. 10k troops in ICV is like a planning for a human wave strategy of attack or they are fearful that IA will use the opportunity to make a break for G219 via the Spanggur gap.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Sep 2020 17:48

abhik wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Where did you get that (and other data) from? Any link?

The 10k number is from this article: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr
The PLA presence at different places is from open source sat images (low resolution ones from sentinel that are updated every ~ 5 day), and select closed source high resolution images (from Planet Inc etc.) shared by certain "OSINT" handles. Of course a lot of it is based on number of "Pink tents" that are highly visible, and only a professional will be able separate the wheat from the chaff - so standard disclaimers apply.

That number is plausible considering we have at least 2 brigades plus in that area. 2 BDE is roughly 6 to 7000.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby idan » 07 Sep 2020 17:54

pankajs wrote:I myself haven't read the report but someones commentary on the same. Tweet has link to the report

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 0403975174
More than 10000 PLA troops alongwith ICVs present near flashpoint of Southern Pangong to Spanggur & Rechin La.

Most dangerous buildup since the Galwan incident.

Most mobilisation done after India took control of Strategic Peaks.

1. GOI obviously knew how China would react after the taking over of the strategic peaks. Still they did not per-empt the Chinese and go the whole hog.

2. 10k troops in ICV is like a planning for a human wave strategy of attack or they are fearful that IA will use the opportunity to make a break for G219 via the Spanggur gap.


All we need is an air-burst of a conventional bomb (like MOAB) - 10K PLA will vanish!


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