India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 14 Aug 2021 15:19

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/2310695/

Godrej Aerospace will focus on opportunities in Space, Defence and domestic aircraft programs, says SM Vaidya, Executive Vice President & Business Head, Godrej Aerospace
By: Huma Siddiqui | August 14, 2021 11:02 AM

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 14 Aug 2021 20:48

Apart From Making Missiles and Rockets, now DRDO is Also Transferring Technology
Source: DRDO
By -August 9, 2021
https://www.eletimes.com/apart-from-mak ... technology

In three years, DRDO has completed 91 such agreements which were related to transfer of technology with industries. For this, DRDO had received Rs 11.98 crore as a fee. DRDO Chairman Dr G Satheesh Reddy has said that at this time there is a dire need to explore new trends in technology. These trends are very important for the world class test range at the moment.

Indigenous equipment preferred
It has been said on behalf of the government that in the data which it has received from the Controller General of Defense Accounts (CGDA), detailed information has been given about the purchase of defense equipment. Apart from this, the equipment purchased by the three armies in the last 3 years also shows that imports are coming down. According to the information shared by the government, defense equipment was purchased in 2018-2019 for Rs 93474 crore.

Out of this, goods were purchased from domestic producers for Rs 50500 crore.
Similarly, from Rs 108340 crore in 2019-2020 and Rs 63722 crore to domestic manufacturers and in 2020-2021 Rs 139341 crore was spent on defense equipment, out of which Rs 88632 crore came in the share of domestic companies.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 14 Aug 2021 21:22

https://english.lokmat.com/national/ker ... -in-kochi/
kerala minister of industries visits drdos naval physical and oceanographic laboratory in kochi
Aug 8 2021

Licensing agreement between NPOL & keltron for
{1} The USHUS Simulator
{2} UWACS Triton
{3}AIDSS Advanced indegenous distress sonar system

All the systems designed by NPOL and realised via keltron as development partner

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 16 Aug 2021 14:21

मिसाइल से टैंक तक DRDO ने दिखाया स्वदेशी का दम, देखें आत्मनिर्भर भारत की झलक

https://www.aajtak.in/amp/programmes/da ... 2021-08-14

https://aajtak-pdelivery.akamaized.net/ ... 24_512.mp4

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 17 Aug 2021 15:01

MoD will soon issue RFPs under Defence Testing Infrastructure Scheme
The RFPs to set up 8 testing facilities under the Defence Testing Infrastructure Scheme (DTIS) will soon be issued by the Ministry of Defence
DEFENCE WATCH BUREAU- AUGUST 16, 2021
https://psuwatch.com/mod-soon-issue-rfp ... ure-scheme

In order to provide an equal playing field for the private defence manufacturers and OEMs, the Defence Ministry is soon going to issue requests for proposal (RFPs) to set up eight defence testing facilities in the country in partnership with the private sector, an official statement said issued by the Ministry on Monday.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 17 Aug 2021 20:06

GE F414 to be manufactured in India?

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 18 Aug 2021 13:34

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 78411.html

Explained | What are composite materials, why do they matter in defence sector and how’s India doing?

From powering light combat aircraft Tejas to a range of weapons, indigenous composite materials will play a pivotal role in India’s missile technology

VANITA SRIVASTAVA JULY 17, 2021 / 07:26 AM IST

R&DE (E), Pune has done pioneering work in establishing processes for product development related to naval and land applications. Examples of this effort are carbon fibre reinforced bridges of different spans for the army that are 40 percent lighter in comparison to their metallic counterparts.

Glass fibre-reinforced armoured vehicle hulls with integral ceramics armour have also been developed.

The main challenge is the paucity of industry support for manufacturing high-end military-grade composites products.

(The information has been provided by the officials of the Defence Research Development Organisation)

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 19 Aug 2021 14:03

Ministry of Defence
DRDO develops Advanced Chaff Technology for Indian Air Force

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh terms it another step of DRDO towards ‘AatmaNirbhar Bharat’
Posted On: 19 AUG 2021 11:46AM by PIB Delhi

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1747306

---------------------------
IAF Begins Process To Induct DRDO-Developed Chaff Technology To Protect Its Fighter Jets From Hostile Radar Threats
by Swarajya Staff-Aug 19, 2021 06:33 AM

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/iaf- ... 2jcnBszQu6

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 19 Aug 2021 14:06

Ministry of Defence
Defence Testing Infrastructure Scheme
Posted On: 16 AUG 2021 3:39PM by PIB Delhi
Key Highlights:
☻ Scheme to boost domestic defence & aerospace manufacturing
☻ Rs 400 crore outlay to create state-of-the-art testing infrastructure in partnership with industry
☻ Scheme was launched by RM in May 2020
☻ Project consultant/officer can be contacted for clarification

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1746365

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 19 Aug 2021 14:08

Ministry of Science & Technology
Nano-structured self-cleaning aluminium surface that reduces bacterial growth can be useful for biomedical & aerospace applications
Posted On: 28 JUL 2021 7:19PM by PIB Delhi
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1740024

Fig: Diagrammatic representation of the mechanism of the developed surface

Fig: Raman spectrometer obtained through (FIST) project

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Aug 2021 17:02

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 49306.html

DRDO develops advanced chaff technology for IAF jets: All you need to know
The Air Force has started the process of induction of advanced chaff technology after completion of successful user trials, according to DRDO. It has been developed to protect the fighters jets against hostile radar threats.
The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has developed an advanced chaff technology to safeguard Indian Air Force (IAF) fighter jets against hostile radar threats.

This come a few months after the DRDO developed a similar technology for naval ships to protect them from missile attacks.

The technology was developed in three variants. The Indian Navy conducted trials of all three variants in the Arabian Sea on Indian Naval Ship and found the performance satisfactory.

Where has the technology been developed?

The advanced chaff technology has been developed by DRDO's defence laboratory situated in Rajasthan's Jodhpur.

It was developed in collaboration with high energy materials research laboratory in Pune to meet qualitative requirements of the IAF. The Air Force has started the process of induction of this technology after completion of successful user trials, according to DRDO.

Defence Laboratory Jodhpur indigenously developed three variants of the critical technology, namely Short Range Chaff Rocket (SRCR), Medium Range Chaff Rocket (MRCR) and Long Range Chaff Rocket (LRCR) to meet the navy's qualitative requirements, according to the defence ministry.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 19 Aug 2021 18:15

IDEX has launched DISC-5

This time many DPSU/PSU are also involved

https://idex.gov.in/disc-category/17

Nalla Baalu · Post by **Nalla Baalu** » 21 Aug 2021 23:44

ARDE Product Showcase

Noticed some interesting GIFs on Twitter sourced from an ARDE product showcase video on YouTube. Includes video snipppets of Railgun prototype and multiple munitions under test.

Unsure if it was posted here:

https://youtu.be/N4ugqCc04qA

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2021 08:14

I have a question on HSLD.
What is the difference between the 450 kg HSLD and the 500 kg HSLD?
The ARDE developed the 450kg HSLD quite some time ago and lots of LGB kit integration happened.
Now why did DRDO have to make a 500 Kg HSLD?
Did some requirements change?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2021 09:23

Fifth DISC projects
https://idex.gov.in/sites/all/themes/id ... SC%205.pdf

RishiChatterjee · Post by **RishiChatterjee** » 22 Aug 2021 09:58

ramana wrote:I have a question on HSLD.
What is the difference between the 450 kg HSLD and the 500 kg HSLD?
The ARDE developed the 450kg HSLD quite some time ago and lots of LGB kit integration happened.
Now why did DRDO have to make a 500 Kg HSLD?
Did some requirements change?

Not 100% sure but while making the PG-HSLD model, it seemed that reason being the HSLD-500 having diameter closer to the GP-1000lb widely used r8 now (HSLD 450 is slimmer).

So that kit should be interchangeable.

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 23 Aug 2021 09:01

Not sure where this should go:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 550959.cms

India show casing export defense equipment in Russia's ARMY-2021
ATAGS
AKASH
Air Defense Control Radar - ATULYA
IFF
ROHINI radar
Joint Venture Pritective Carbine
HELINA
NAG
AEWC (Netra)
LCA (this is trolling of next level I think- with a US engine, no russi tech and showcasing this at ARMY-2021)

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 24 Aug 2021 16:43

27 AUG 2021

TALK ON
ELEVATED TEMPERATURE EROSION OF THERMAL BARRIER COATING SYSTEM BY
DR.MANISH ROY, SC-G, DMRL
3:00 Pm - 4:30 Pm Online
Event Organized By: School of Engineering Sciences and Technology, University of Hyderabad

https://uohyd.ac.in/wp-content/uploads/ ... ersion.pdf

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 31 Aug 2021 18:55

CSIR

Weapon Aiming Avionics for Fighter Aircrafts: An aid to Pilot's target through Advanced Instrumentation" on 31st August 2021 at 11.00 a.m

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Sep 2021 06:55

We like to blame others for everything without blaming ourselves for anything. Well, you cannot play tennis standing at one spot hoping that your opponent will hit the ball to you. To win, you have to take the initiative and take the fight to the opponent. Foreign policy/geopolitik is somewhat similar - the biggest problem gets the biggest solution.

When has India taken the initiative (except recent strikes)- the problem is so bad that we are scared to give orders to domestic industry for fear of angering suppliers that have gotten fat from our orders. We are ready to kill domestic MIC and perpetually import everything. Imagine negotiating for upgrades for the POS T-90 while Arjuns wait for orders. I believe the question should be - can India depend, nay define its own strategic vision? Is the only goal of our foreign policy to merely save Kashmir? Or do we have a vision of a greater vision - or expanding our sphere of influence?

And then do we have the b$lls to take the fight to the enemy? How come PAF escaped on Feb 27th with only one F-16 down? Why didn't we destroy the entire PAF on the ground in retaliation for their strike? Who will help us when we cannot help ourselves? And how long are we going to need handouts? Why isn't India a Great Power militarily and economically on its own today?

We should have continued with Maruts and exported them all over the world - yet we bought an under powered so called DPSA instead, that has not seen action anywhere during its tenure. The effect - destruction of a budding domestic MIC and lack of economic stability to buy a POS dud. Instead of earning money through the exports of proudly built HF-24s and HF-73s, we are stuck being the largest importer of arms in the world - a title full of shame.

Nations do not have friends, only interests. And at this point of time, our interest are similar to that of the Western nations, Japan, Vietnam, Philippines (and other of China's neighbors) with China the world's threat #1. But are our foreign policy and strategic mandarins up to the great game? We have to play our cards right - create or be part of the big problems instead of being "non-aligned spectators". How come we don't have sales of ALH, Rudra, LCH, Astra, Arjun, Shivaliks, etc to Vietnam/Philippines or joint development projects with Taiwan. We're scared of wishing Taiwan on their important days while China (and Roos) supplies Pukistan all kinds of hardware to kill Indians.

So instead of beating our chests, show the world that we are a power to contend with. Build domestic MIC and export Indian weapons aggressively. It should be mandated that any Indian Armed forces officer that criticizes Indian products will be court martialed. Make nice brochures, over hype capabilities and sell, sell, sell.

I see the question as - Can foreign nations expect to find a bulwark against China in India? Is India ready for the big leagues? Or are our foreign policy mandarins so confused that they need to remain "Non Aligned" i.e. be so dependent on its vendors from all over the world so as to not have an independent, sovereign foreign policy.

venkat_kv · Post by **venkat_kv** » 01 Sep 2021 07:58

Vivek K wrote:We like to blame others for everything without blaming ourselves for anything. Well, you cannot play tennis standing at one spot hoping that your opponent will hit the ball to you. To win, you have to take the initiative and take the fight to the opponent. Foreign policy/geopolitik is somewhat similar - the biggest problem gets the biggest solution.

.....snip

We should have continued with Maruts and exported them all over the world - yet we bought an under powered so called DPSA instead, that has not seen action anywhere during its tenure. The effect - destruction of a budding domestic MIC and lack of economic stability to buy a POS dud. Instead of earning money through the exports of proudly built HF-24s and HF-73s, we are stuck being the largest importer of arms in the world - a title full of shame.

Nations do not have friends, only interests. And at this point of time, our interest are similar to that of the Western nations, Japan, Vietnam, Philippines (and other of China's neighbors) with China the world's threat #1. But are our foreign policy and strategic mandarins up to the great game? We have to play our cards right - create or be part of the big problems instead of being "non-aligned spectators". How come we don't have sales of ALH, Rudra, LCH, Astra, Arjun, Shivaliks, etc to Vietnam/Philippines or joint development projects with Taiwan. We're scared of wishing Taiwan on their important days while China (and Roos) supplies Pukistan all kinds of hardware to kill Indians.

So instead of beating our chests, show the world that we are a power to contend with. Build domestic MIC and export Indian weapons aggressively. It should be mandated that any Indian Armed forces officer that criticizes Indian products will be court martialed. Make nice brochures, over hype capabilities and sell, sell, sell.

I see the question as - Can foreign nations expect to find a bulwark against China in India? Is India ready for the big leagues? Or are our foreign policy mandarins so confused that they need to remain "Non Aligned" i.e. be so dependent on its vendors from all over the world so as to not have an independent, sovereign foreign policy.

Vivek K Saar,
This might be OT for this thread, modsmay move this to the appropriate mil thread if required.
One main reason for the bolded part is we still don't make the heart and brain of the military vehicles so to speak. We are dependent on the West, israelis or the Russians for the engines, and some of the spares for the weaponry. so there exists a veto power by those nations for our export.

there is no point in trying to sell or make a big announcement only to back off because we didn't get the green signal. We will have to keep chugging along and we should get there knocking one thing at a time off atleast.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Sep 2021 08:07

Vivek K wrote:We like to blame others for everything....

Can you move this post to another thread? It does not relate to this thread.

Thank you for your co-operation in this matter. Any technical issues, please let me know.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Sep 2021 08:13

Rakesh wrote:
Vivek K wrote:We like to blame others for everything....
Can you move this post to another thread? It does not relate to this thread.

Thank you for your co-operation in this matter. Any technical issues, please let me know.

It is a criticism of the whiny topic. How is it not relevant to the topic?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Sep 2021 08:17

venkat_kv wrote: Vivek K Saar,
This might be OT for this thread, modsmay move this to the appropriate mil thread if required.
One main reason for the bolded part is we still don't make the heart and brain of the military vehicles so to speak. We are dependent on the West, israelis or the Russians for the engines, and some of the spares for the weaponry. so there exists a veto power by those nations for our export.

there is no point in trying to sell or make a big announcement only to back off because we didn't get the green signal. We will have to keep chugging along and we should get there knocking one thing at a time off atleast.

Really? I thought we were using Adour engines for the HF-24. And with the addition of after burner, the prototype was showing a lot of promise when further development was stopped since we purchased the Jag!

Point is - are we a reliable strategic partner? Are we ready to shoulder our required burden? That question should be answered before we start blaming the world for their shortcomings. We will only need reliable strategic partners if we are ready to play in the big leagues. Unless by a strategic partner we imply merely paying lip service to our egos and cast aspersions on our enemies.

venkat_kv · Post by **venkat_kv** » 01 Sep 2021 11:12

Vivek K wrote:
venkat_kv wrote: Vivek K Saar,
This might be OT for this thread, mods may move this to the appropriate mil thread if required.
One main reason for the bolded part is we still don't make the heart and brain of the military vehicles so to speak. We are dependent on the West, israelis or the Russians for the engines, and some of the spares for the weaponry. so there exists a veto power by those nations for our export.

there is no point in trying to sell or make a big announcement only to back off because we didn't get the green signal. We will have to keep chugging along and we should get there knocking one thing at a time off atleast.
Really? I thought we were using Adour engines for the HF-24. And with the addition of after burner, the prototype was showing a lot of promise when further development was stopped since we purchased the Jag!

Point is - are we a reliable strategic partner? Are we ready to shoulder our required burden? That question should be answered before we start blaming the world for their shortcomings. We will only need reliable strategic partners if we are ready to play in the big leagues. Unless by a strategic partner we imply merely paying lip service to our egos and cast aspersions on our enemies.

responding here as it seemed OT to talk about extended military sales in strategic affairs thread about the US trustworthiness. Mods may move this post to the appropriate thread if its not in a correct location.

Vivek K Saar,
What you have pointed out with HF-24/Marut shows the limitations of what you are trying to propose, isn't it? My info on HF-24 is based on what was debated on the forum. It was still under powered with the orpheus engines I believe. With the Adour engines, the air force had lost interest by then and with the russians coming through the wars we had more or less become dependent on russian wares with the mig 21 coming in as the latest fighter.

There might be myraid political reasons, India was initially looking to export the HF-24/Marut to the non -aligned countries and when Egypt had their own fighter program (which also got dropped later) we had abandoned our effort at own engine and pretty much left the project to run rudderless.

But this again tells us that we are only strong as our weak link. We are dependent on critical units (engine, seekers in certain profiles, avionics, weapons atleast for helicopters). There was a report of Russia nixing our export offer for Brahmos to vietnam or Philippines because it was going to affect their own yakont exports. that would have been less of a case if we had our own engines or produced Brahmos wholly by ourselves.

As i said, we are getting there slowly, HF-24 was degined by kurt tank, we have Tejas being an Indian designed plane with the flight software and radar coming online that is also our own, soon to be joined with Astra missiles. We have to keep at it, My feeling or hunch is after the research and collaboration reaches critical mass we tend to break through in a matter of time.

right now we don't have the whole gamut of articles being made in India, so we will not be a reliable strategic supplier, unless we can prey on failed states like the Chinese do. We are currently substituting outright imports with license build and some indigenous replacement. the focus has to be to constantly keep increasing the indigenous content and not just license produced stuff.

And I am not sure by what you mean by strategic partner. khan and the bear are hardly any definition of reliability if their behavior with respect to chinese India, pak India, or the syrian issues are to be seen. We obviously don't want to be seen as rent boys for these powers or fight their battles. We are following everything that we have signed in our dealis, although i can't say the same for the Khan, Bear and Cheen.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 01 Sep 2021 14:32

If 'indigenization' was the main reason for lack of exports, then Sweden would never be able to sell Gripen. It is far less indigenous then Tejas is.

Really the main reason is more that we don't make or use our own stuff in large numbers. Why would anyone buy from you if you don't use it yourself?

Currently our mindset is importing based ie. we want to buy something that is 'technology proven' somewhere else first. We need to shift to a leadership mindset, we develop and prove it here and then use it in large numbers and after that people can buy from us.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 01 Sep 2021 15:16

Vivek K wrote:We like to blame others for everything without blaming ourselves for anything. Well, you cannot play tennis standing at one spot hoping that your opponent will hit the ball to you. To win, you have to take the initiative and take the fight to the opponent. Foreign policy/geopolitik is somewhat similar - the biggest problem gets the biggest solution.

When has India taken the initiative (except recent strikes)- the problem is so bad that we are scared to give orders to domestic industry for fear of angering suppliers that have gotten fat from our orders. We are ready to kill domestic MIC and perpetually import everything. Imagine negotiating for upgrades for the POS T-90 while Arjuns wait for orders. I believe the question should be - can India depend, nay define its own strategic vision? Is the only goal of our foreign policy to merely save Kashmir? Or do we have a vision of a greater vision - or expanding our sphere of influence?

And then do we have the b$lls to take the fight to the enemy? How come PAF escaped on Feb 27th with only one F-16 down? Why didn't we destroy the entire PAF on the ground in retaliation for their strike? Who will help us when we cannot help ourselves? And how long are we going to need handouts? Why isn't India a Great Power militarily and economically on its own today?

We should have continued with Maruts and exported them all over the world - yet we bought an under powered so called DPSA instead, that has not seen action anywhere during its tenure. The effect - destruction of a budding domestic MIC and lack of economic stability to buy a POS dud. Instead of earning money through the exports of proudly built HF-24s and HF-73s, we are stuck being the largest importer of arms in the world - a title full of shame.

Nations do not have friends, only interests. And at this point of time, our interest are similar to that of the Western nations, Japan, Vietnam, Philippines (and other of China's neighbors) with China the world's threat #1. But are our foreign policy and strategic mandarins up to the great game? We have to play our cards right - create or be part of the big problems instead of being "non-aligned spectators". How come we don't have sales of ALH, Rudra, LCH, Astra, Arjun, Shivaliks, etc to Vietnam/Philippines or joint development projects with Taiwan. We're scared of wishing Taiwan on their important days while China (and Roos) supplies Pukistan all kinds of hardware to kill Indians.

So instead of beating our chests, show the world that we are a power to contend with. Build domestic MIC and export Indian weapons aggressively. It should be mandated that any Indian Armed forces officer that criticizes Indian products will be court martialed. Make nice brochures, over hype capabilities and sell, sell, sell.

I see the question as - Can foreign nations expect to find a bulwark against China in India? Is India ready for the big leagues? Or are our foreign policy mandarins so confused that they need to remain "Non Aligned" i.e. be so dependent on its vendors from all over the world so as to not have an independent, sovereign foreign policy.

we are not an expansionist power nor are we hegemonistic.

we are content to remain in our own bubble, doing our thing.

No need or even call for us to take any fight to the enemy.

Since the days of bush, we have refused demands to send our troops to fight ameriki wars overseas. Ditto with afghanistan. we don't have a dog in such fights.

Why should we do anything other than grow our economy, look after our people and safeguard our borders.

If we are wary of foreign "help" it's because we know well the beast of colonization in all its forms and manifestations. We "sent" two and a half million Indians to fight in the two great wars because some goat milk drinking buffoon helped out his racist colonial pals by keeping the Indians quiet. This is exactly what those same colonizing powers want us to do again To them, India is only fit for providing cannon fodder. They want us fighting their wars.

This is also an easy way for the BIF to suppress our growth, increase internal strife, increase communal and social tensions and ensure that a strong govt is not elected to power as they need a weak and corrupt dispensation in power to rule us like the britshits did

The time for India becoming a great power is not now and it will not be for so many years to come.

we are being stampeded by external interests, desperate to entice us to take up growth draining responsibilities which are not ours to sort out. All it needs is some vi@gr@ fuelled or gigolo supplied Indian presstitute journo, a few dollars and visas for them to stridently endorse the BIF viewpoint

Indian blood and treasure is better spent in a myriad of ways at home, rather than sucking from the tits of the ameriki war machine.

Let us first consolidate at home before we foolishly venture out and get sucked into the quicksands and quagmire of global conflicts because "लोग क्या कहेंगे, दुनिया वाले क्या कहेंगे"

Modi has shown two fingers to the cheeni, banned their apps, their telecom industry and other cheeni army investments under the garb of FDI, faced them down alone, both at doklam and ladakh.

who else in the world has taken on the cheeni like India/Modi has.

we are doing very well on our own, and where we are forced to deal with others, let us do so with India's supreme national interests well protected and always at the forefront and lets ensure that the genetic descendants of east India company, reborn colonial minded entities like twitter, google, amazon, facebook, and walmart, among others toe the Indian line.

why exactly would an Indian soldier use third grade equipment and die for others just because some congi/commie politico punk said so. The departed soldier's families are devastated and abandoned, and forgotten while the comfortable wokes yawn, change the channel and order pizzas from an ameriki fast food company operating out of India

The very first brahmos that we "export" will be in cheeni hands, that very same evening, with some soldout ahole in the philliphines or wherever "profusely apologizing" for "security lapses"

Besides, these missiles have a considerable classified russki content and would the russkis allow India to make such "sales"

Ditto for other systems which have some non Indian content. Who do you think would have bought maruts without engines

A missile can be used in battle, usually just one time before a whole host of countries figure out how to counter it and render it ineffective.

Someone should ask the israelis how they learned to counter the arab launched russki missiles so quickly and effectively.

SinghS · Post by **SinghS** » 01 Sep 2021 17:37

The problem of India is of crab mentality. An Indian developing and selling to another Indian is usually not accepted. The first thing an Indian does is to try to find flaws in another Indian's plans or business or product. It is always Shalya on Karna's chariot unless the Karna is ruthless and punishing. But something coming from other country is free from flaws and even if it is flawed, is accepted with respect.

When the people designing indigenous products are not respected by politicos/armed forces because of their inherent superiority complex owing to Britshit education system and previous generations of decision makers coming from privileged background and nurturing similar successors, how come the product they design be superior? This leads to non-induction. Kickbacks are another issue.

This can change only slowly; once people from ordinary background start dominating IAS and Forces. It is happening, but would take a generation or two.

VickyAvinash · Post by **VickyAvinash** » 01 Sep 2021 23:22

chetak wrote:we are not an expansionist power nor are we hegemonistic.

we are content to remain in our own bubble, doing our thing.

A missile can be used in battle, usually just one time before a whole host of countries figure out how to counter it and render it ineffective.

Someone should ask the israelis how they learned to counter the arab launched russki missiles so quickly and effectively.

This post is such a keeper. Sometimes I wish that BRF had an articles thread where resident experts write such detailed posts that are so commonsensical yet extremely relevant.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Sep 2021 03:26

And in the same line how prudent is to sell LCA with Astra and jamming pod to Malaysia who just the other day were chums with TSP and Thxgiving sacrificial bird. We should export but a very different variant with the assumption that if the enemy had full access to it what we will lose. Till we make such a variant, lets fulfill the needs of IAF and perhaps Vietnam (who would guard this tech as any loss hurts them, plus they have no reason to lose it to the Ummah or their northern brothers).

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 02 Sep 2021 19:20

past event August 25 2021

Enhancing-Role-of-MSMEs-in-Defence-Sector

let us hope/wait for the video to be uploaded in
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCL3mhK ... &flow=grid

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Sep 2021 03:45

chetak wrote:why exactly would an Indian soldier use third grade equipment and die for others just because some congi/commie politico punk said so. The departed soldier's families are devastated and abandoned, and forgotten while the comfortable wokes yawn, change the channel and order pizzas from an ameriki fast food company operating out of India

The very first brahmos that we "export" will be in cheeni hands, that very same evening, with some soldout ahole in the philliphines or wherever "profusely apologizing" for "security lapses"

Besides, these missiles have a considerable classified russki content and would the russkis allow India to make such "sales"

Ditto for other systems which have some non Indian content. Who do you think would have bought maruts without engines

A missile can be used in battle, usually just one time before a whole host of countries figure out how to counter it and render it ineffective.

Unfortunately, India doesnt have the budget (yet) to sustain a large defence industry. The only way out is to export and then make india-specific/safeguarded variants for domestic use.

This is how the entire world behaves. The Russians, Chinese, Americans, French, Swedes all export.

Until and unless India exports, it will not make enough to constantly iterate and improve its items either. The flow of money keeps the ecosystem up and running and ready to improve and make new variants.

Best we decide the tricky "local secrecy for domestic use" part and that will automatically allow us to export away.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Sep 2021 05:02

Karan M wrote:
chetak wrote:why exactly would an Indian soldier use third grade equipment and die for others just because some congi/commie politico punk said so. The departed soldier's families are devastated and abandoned, and forgotten while the comfortable wokes yawn, change the channel and order pizzas from an ameriki fast food company operating out of India

The very first brahmos that we "export" will be in cheeni hands, that very same evening, with some soldout ahole in the philliphines or wherever "profusely apologizing" for "security lapses"

Besides, these missiles have a considerable classified russki content and would the russkis allow India to make such "sales"

Ditto for other systems which have some non Indian content. Who do you think would have bought maruts without engines

A missile can be used in battle, usually just one time before a whole host of countries figure out how to counter it and render it ineffective.
Unfortunately, India doesnt have the budget (yet) to sustain a large defence industry. The only way out is to export and then make india-specific/safeguarded variants for domestic use.

This is how the entire world behaves. The Russians, Chinese, Americans, French, Swedes all export.

Until and unless India exports, it will not make enough to constantly iterate and improve its items either. The flow of money keeps the ecosystem up and running and ready to improve and make new variants.

Best we decide the tricky "local secrecy for domestic use" part and that will automatically allow us to export away.

we need to sanitize the technology so that it becomes an "export" version like we receive most of our foreign sold systems. No one sell us their top of the line weapon systems, they always sell a degraded or less capable system.

Do you think that we will be allowed to sell cryogenic engines to srilanka or bangladesh without being sanctioned ourselves.

The amerikis stopped the russkis from selling critical space tech to India by threatening sanctions and the mighty russkis obediently fell in line

For completely India sourced and built systems, we will have no problems but selling systems with parts sourced from outside India without permission of the original seller will result in some very unhappy suppliers who will not like it one bit.

no one is against exports. What will take center stage is India exporting weapons with parts that she sources from outside, especially if such suppliers object to their parts being sold by India.

Many systems come with stringent conditions that prohibit such trade with other countries.

our own supplies may dry up entirely if supplier countries get upset by these exports

If you get the OK then sell, otherwise, sell what you have made in India from Indian parts if there are customers.

if you arm the Philippines or Vietnam or Taiwan or whoever, be a hundred percent sure that you are able to handle the fallout and consequences.

Induction of new weapons/systems may destabilize regions and result in strategic ramifications so there will be repercussions that will hurt us.

It would be foolish to sell crown jewels like the Brahmos.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 03 Sep 2021 05:05

We can develop our own IP. (We meaning Indian private sector plus Indian defense labs)

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 03 Sep 2021 05:14

Vayutuvan wrote:We can develop our own IP. (We meaning Indian private sector plus Indian defense labs)

I am not saying this sarcastically, but if we could, would we not have already done so.

Even special steels and alloys may be embargoed and I know that the brahmos use such materials for the missile.

coast guard OPV's and small patrol boats maybe some of the items to consider for export

we also make mine protected vehicles and things like that

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 03 Sep 2021 05:33

chetak wrote:
Vayutuvan wrote:We can develop our own IP. (We meaning Indian private sector plus Indian defense labs)
I am not saying this sarcastically, but if we could, would we not have already done so.

I think there is a qualitative difference in what we can do now vs. what we could do till 2005-2010. Both sectors should stop worshipping foreign research folks and beleive in themselves. Private sector needs stand up and be counted. The unfortunate reality is that Pvt. sector wouldn't mind throwing a few 100 million into some app development but loath to invest the same in physical plants. The risks in app development are as high, if not more, than mfg. For the latter, we need more hands-on engineering talent and operational management. IIT and NIT folks are more inclined to go to IIMs than wear a hard hat and trudge through the dirt and muck of rural India.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 03 Sep 2021 05:50

What we need in our administration/ministries/politicians are more technologists/engineers and less CA/Banking/MBA/social work/literature/Churchillian wit/Oxford debaters. If most IIT/NIT folks entering the IIMs to do operations management/PPC, I would be the first one to cheer them on. Processes can be patented but not algorithms or mathematics in general.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Sep 2021 06:12

chetak wrote: we are not an expansionist power nor are we hegemonistic.

we are content to remain in our own bubble, doing our thing

No need or even call for us to take any fight to the enemy.

Not sure if this is written in sarcasm. But Why are we not hegemonistic? Everyone else is. If Pakis had the power we hold today, what portions of India would have still remained with us - MP, AP, TN, Kerala, Karnataka. And the rest - with Pukis.

Since the days of bush, we have refused demands to send our troops to fight ameriki wars overseas. Ditto with afghanistan. we don't have a dog in such fights.

Why should we do anything other than grow our economy, look after our people and safeguard our borders.

Can we bury our heads in the sand and say if we don't take the fight to the enemy, he will also play nice. Please go over history - maybe talk to Alexander or Ghazni or the East India Company.

.. India is only fit for providing cannon fodder. They want us fighting their wars.

Learn about strategy and light fires that help only India. Who wants to fight others' fights. Make your strategy, execute it and commit others to helping you! Read my post again. If you sit and keep erecting walls, then remember the Maginot line and how long it held against Hitler.

The time for India becoming a great power is not now and it will not be for so many years to come.

Sarcasm? Or you really believe that?

Indian blood and treasure is better spent in a myriad of ways at home, rather than sucking from the tits of the ameriki war machine.

After sucking on roosi tits for 5 decades, suddenly we've started disliking t---?eh! For public consumption America is a bad word while posters in this forum spend hundreds of pages re-litigating US elections instead of how India can get advantage of the current situation.

Let us first consolidate at home before we foolishly venture out and get sucked into the quicksands and quagmire of global conflicts because "लोग क्या कहेंगे, दुनिया वाले क्या कहेंगे"

Modi has shown two fingers to the cheeni, banned their apps, their telecom industry and other cheeni army investments under the garb of FDI, faced them down alone, both at doklam and ladakh.

who else in the world has taken on the cheeni like India/Modi has.

Right - order more Rafales so that we would have no money left for anything else nor jobs so that India's future can grovel in poverty for eons. Spend the remaining money on upgrading the piece of sh$t T-90.

There has to be strategic vision or else India will never have a position in the world order.

The very first brahmos that we "export" will be in cheeni hands, that very same evening, with some soldout ahole in the philliphines or wherever "profusely apologizing" for "security lapses"

China probably has detailed drawings of the latest version of the Brahmos. If we're successful in hiding something, they will get it from the Russians. So why the hesitation. EVery one is making a buck selling weapons. Look at US and Israel. US is Israel's biggest supporter yet sells advanced weaponry to Saudis, and others.

Besides, these missiles have a considerable classified russki content and would the russkis allow India to make such "sales"

The classical question - ask an Indian that and watch him wrestle with it for decades - while Chinese fly 100s of reverse engineered Sukhois (the holy grail of Roosi tech) while Indians pooh pooh that saying - wtf, it is Chinese, won't even fly. Say that when these copies come knocking at our borders. How many copied Mig-21s have the Chinese sold? Today they are partners of the Roosis - while India buys a seat at their table! Take your pick boss!

Ditto for other systems which have some non Indian content. Who do you think would have bought maruts without engines

Sure - if you don't try, you will never know. Ignore if your post was written in sarcasm.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Sep 2021 07:07

venkat_kv wrote:
Vivek K Saar,
What you have pointed out with HF-24/Marut shows the limitations of what you are trying to propose, isn't it? My info on HF-24 is based on what was debated on the forum. It was still under powered with the orpheus engines I believe. With the Adour engines, the air force had lost interest by then and with the russians coming through the wars we had more or less become dependent on russian wares with the mig 21 coming in as the latest fighter.

Your response shows how tough it is for an Indian to think he can beat the world.

As for the Marut, you need to research about Its development a bit more. And you will see my point. Here are some key posts

From Google chacha

"By 1963 the decision had been taken to adhere to the Orpheus 703 engine as the basic powerplant of the Maruta Mk 1, but to do everything possible to increase its performance. The Orpheus 703 reheat made use of Bristol Siddeley techniques and advice, but was basically a product of HAL's Engine Division and reflects that organization's steadily growing self-sufficiency. The Orpheus 703 Reheat, as the engine is known, had a maximum rating in the 6,500 to 7,0001b class. A three-squadron batch of the just-supersonic Maruta Mkl ground attacker was built with Hindustan-made Orpheus 703R engines, with an afterburner of HAL design. The Government was unwilling to sanction Rs 5 crores to Bristol Siddeley for development of the afterburning follow-on engine to the Orpheus 703 as its power plant".

And from Rohit Vats' blog:
As for now, I produce excerpts from autobiography of Air Vice Marshal SN Roy Chowdhury. These excerpts tell you about the little know efforts made by GTRE to power HF-24 with a reheat engine and how, the obstinacy of Professor Kurt Tank and Indian members of design team at HAL, prevented this venture from reaching its logical conclusion.

Research this and see how the import lobby stopped GTRE's development of the basic Orpheus and then used the crash of the prototype to kill the development and also the HF-24 program. The crash occurred because the canopy opened on take off and did not fly away.

We have been told lies about how the Marut failed due to engine problems. Solutions were available, GTRE requested a tail section re-design which Kurt Tank and HAL would not allow (per the AVM).

Since this was a GTRE development, with its success, HAL could have exported the HF-24.

And I am not sure by what you mean by strategic partner. khan and the bear are hardly any definition of reliability if their behavior with respect to chinese India, pak India, or the syrian issues are to be seen. We obviously don't want to be seen as rent boys for these powers or fight their battles. We are following everything that we have signed in our dealis, although i can't say the same for the Khan, Bear and Cheen.

You seem a little confused. Where did you come across that India needs to be "rent boys for anybody in my post?

Answer this - why does Pakistan exist today? Why did IG stop the war in '71 when Pakis were defeated in the East and it was a matter of time before they folded in the West. IAF had air superiority and Pakis had no nukes. PN was decimated and we could have struck Karachi at will by air or sea. Would Pakistan have stopped the war if they were in our position? This is what I mean by strategic partner - one that takes decisions in its interests.

And in '62 - IAF had an edge over the PLAAF - yet Nehru in his infinite wisdom did not allow the IAF to attack the Chinese troops! Sound strategy? If we won't defend ourselves, who will?

We claim to have assembled Jaguars, Migs 21s (several types), Sukhois. What did that teach us? Look at the LCA and the Marut - how much they taught us? Yes the Rafale is better than the LCA - but the LCA is close. Build your own factories (good strategy), refuse imports (good strategy). Necessity is the mother of invention!

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 03 Sep 2021 08:36

chetak wrote:
if you arm the Philippines or Vietnam or Taiwan or whoever, be a hundred percent sure that you are able to handle the fallout and consequences.

What consequences?
I don’t think China is restraining itself in any way. We should not fear chinese retaliation an iota. Infact we have a huge deficit with them. Indeed we have been funding chinese military every year since last 2 decades.

The reasons we are not exporting, mainly is that there is incompetence in our system and that we are too proud to accept our flaws. Accepting flaws is a sign of strength.