Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

nash · Post by **nash** » 11 Sep 2021 12:15

Indranil wrote:^^^ +1

I think the motor diameter of Mk2 is increasing from 178mm to 190mm. Seeker, warhead and the control section remains at 178mm.

If the structural difference between Astra Mk1 and Mk2 is thickness of respective missiles, then does it means less or no captive trials and it can go quickly to direct test firing stage ?

ShivS · Post by **ShivS** » 11 Sep 2021 13:52

Indranil wrote:1. Astra Mk1 is undergoing a change in propellant casting. I don't know why.
2. There is every sign the Astra Mk2 will look near identical to Astra Mk1.

May have worked out how to cast the propellant with differential grain sizing. This results in a longer burn and a higher impulse period with lower peak speed.

In a missile shaped like the Astra with large fins the aerodynamic drag is very substantial, as a consequence Astra has a weakness in the envelope degrading fast at lower altitudes due to this issue. A higher impulse period with lower peak speed helps reduce drag and can lead to substantial increase in range.

I do hope Astra MK2 has a different configuration of fins

nam · Post by **nam** » 11 Sep 2021 13:56

Wouldn't larger fins create extra lift, there by helping with the range? I would presume larger fins would be quite useful during the coasting phase.

I have little knowledge of aero structures, but logic tells smaller fins would be useful during the powered phase(due to reduced drag) and larger fins during the coasting phase.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 11 Sep 2021 18:18

Notam issued for missile test on 23 - 24 Oct.

ShivS · Post by **ShivS** » 11 Sep 2021 21:02

nam wrote:Wouldn't larger fins create extra lift, there by helping with the range? I would presume larger fins would be quite useful during the coasting phase.

I have little knowledge of aero structures, but logic tells smaller fins would be useful during the powered phase(due to reduced drag) and larger fins during the coasting phase.

At the wrong angle lift becomes drag - that’s why aircraft stall

Supersonic drag is far more complex - as a rule a long slender shape will perform best

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Sep 2021 02:04

Ashokk its for September 23-24

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 12 Sep 2021 07:15

ShivS wrote:
nam wrote:Wouldn't larger fins create extra lift, there by helping with the range? I would presume larger fins would be quite useful during the coasting phase.

I have little knowledge of aero structures, but logic tells smaller fins would be useful during the powered phase(due to reduced drag) and larger fins during the coasting phase.
At the wrong angle lift becomes drag - that’s why aircraft stall

Supersonic drag is far more complex - as a rule a long slender shape will perform best

12mm dia increase increases internal volume for fuel. Newer fuel grain may further increase volume efficiency, specially when configured for dual pulse. Increased dia significantly increase aero maneuvering (body lift, CL)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Sep 2021 21:54

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 17731?s=20 ---> Dummy rounds are generally used for stimulating the operational cycle associated with launchers during related tests and validation cycle of launchers without involving the actual rounds.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 13 Sep 2021 18:23

India to conduct first user trial of Agni-V missile
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 57942.html
13 Sept 2021

Defence sources said the next trial of Agni-V missile assumes significance as it may be equipped with the MIRV capable of carrying multiple warheads. Though the MIRV capability of the missile was secretly tested during a multi-satellite launch, no live launch has been conducted so far. “For the first time, the indigenous MIRV technology was tested successfully in Agni P missile with the weapon delivering two manoeuvrable warheads at two separate locations. The MIRV capability of Agni-V will give India the much needed deterrence,” said the sources.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Sep 2021 21:20

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 63200?s=20 ---> Report: India is set to conduct the first user trial of the ICBM Agni-V. The report added that this test may feature MIRVs and that the recent test of Agni-P also was a live test of MIRVs (two warheads).

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/143 ... 73358?s=20 ---> India needs to increase the 'leakage probability' of its long range deterrent i.e. ICBMs. MIRVs are a natural fit for that.

https://twitter.com/DesiEscobar07/statu ... 77576?s=20 ---> India to conduct first user trial of nuclear capable Agni-V missile with 5000km range on 23 September. It's capable to destroy multiple targets in one launch.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Sep 2021 21:46

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 23297?s=20 ---> The new generation of the BrahMos cruise missile (BrahMos-NG) will be produced at a plant near Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh under the UP DIC: RM Rajnath Singh. The BrahMos-NG cruise missile is planned to complete its trials in 2023.

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Sep 2021 22:40

vipins wrote:India to conduct first user trial of Agni-V missile
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 57942.html
13 Sept 2021

Defence sources said the next trial of Agni-V missile assumes significance as it may be equipped with the MIRV capable of carrying multiple warheads. Though the MIRV capability of the missile was secretly tested during a multi-satellite launch, no live launch has been conducted so far. “For the first time, the indigenous MIRV technology was tested successfully in Agni P missile with the weapon delivering two manoeuvrable warheads at two separate locations. The MIRV capability of Agni-V will give India the much needed deterrence,” said the sources.

Bit difficult to believe its just two MIRV for a nation that parked more than two dozen satellites in orbit in one go., maybe it has do with warhead weight?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Sep 2021 22:59

ShivS wrote:
Indranil wrote:1. Astra Mk1 is undergoing a change in propellant casting. I don't know why.
2. There is every sign the Astra Mk2 will look near identical to Astra Mk1.

May have worked out how to cast the propellant with differential grain sizing. This results in a longer burn and a higher impulse period with lower peak speed.

In a missile shaped like the Astra with large fins the aerodynamic drag is very substantial, as a consequence Astra has a weakness in the envelope degrading fast at lower altitudes due to this issue. A higher impulse period with lower peak speed helps reduce drag and can lead to substantial increase in range.

I do hope Astra MK2 has a different configuration of fins

I agree with your speculation that they might be trying different grains and/or geometry to alter the flight profile for increasing acceleration and/or range. They are going from 4 petal to 12 petals. This typically increases initial acceleration and based on other changes can be used to decrease sustained burn rate (i.e. increase burn time).

ShivS wrote:
nam wrote:Wouldn't larger fins create extra lift, there by helping with the range? I would presume larger fins would be quite useful during the coasting phase.

I have little knowledge of aero structures, but logic tells smaller fins would be useful during the powered phase(due to reduced drag) and larger fins during the coasting phase.
At the wrong angle lift becomes drag - that’s why aircraft stall

Supersonic drag is far more complex - as a rule a long slender shape will perform best

But, the part about drag is not fully correct. What you said is true for ballistic projectiles. But BVRs coast for a consider amount of time and using the cylindrical body of a missile to create lift is not efficient! In fact, the original Astra had much lower aspect ratio wings. They modified it to the cropped delta wings to overcome the drag and enhance the range. What we can say is that the wings increase drag during acceleration. Again notice that the highly swept delta wing with extremely sharp edges were adopted for this reason. But this configuration has worked for DRDO, so much so that they have adapted it on QRSAM and NGARM as well.

Another pointer is that overall propellant loading is seeing decrease of about 2.23 kg. If drag was a problem, they would not decrease propellant loading. This is an optimization. Most likely like you said, increase acceleration and moderate top speed for furthest reach.

Or it might be adaptation for VLSRSAM. I don't know!

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Sep 2021 23:03

https://armscontrolcenter.org/multiple- ... icle-mirv/

The use of MIRVs on submarines [SLBM] is considered less destabilizing than on land-based missiles because the difficulty of finding nuclear submarines makes strikes against them unlikely.

williams · Post by **williams** » 13 Sep 2021 23:16

kit wrote:
vipins wrote:India to conduct first user trial of Agni-V missile
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 57942.html
13 Sept 2021

Bit difficult to believe its just two MIRV for a nation that parked more than two dozen satellites in orbit in one go., maybe it has do with warhead weight?

I think there is capacity for 1500 kgs. Physics package cannot be more than 250 kgs (wild guess doubling the weight of a w80 warhead - since we are SDRE and like fatty things only). So it could be they were using just 2 for testing. Or want to keep the enemies guessing. Or we are punching below our weight. Who knows? - With SDREs it is always a mystery

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 13 Sep 2021 23:32

vipins wrote:India to conduct first user trial of Agni-V missile
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 57942.html
13 Sept 2021

Defence sources said the next trial of Agni-V missile assumes significance as it may be equipped with the MIRV capable of carrying multiple warheads. Though the MIRV capability of the missile was secretly tested during a multi-satellite launch, no live launch has been conducted so far. “For the first time, the indigenous MIRV technology was tested successfully in Agni P missile with the weapon delivering two manoeuvrable warheads at two separate locations. The MIRV capability of Agni-V will give India the much needed deterrence,” said the sources.

Mr. Rout, with the scoop, as always! Some people on Teetar were also speculating that the newly launched missile tracking ship Dhruv would be used to track this. Dhruv would be ideal for tracking multiple MIRV petals. They must have a high degree of confidence after the Agni-P trial (the missile seems like a game-changer) to test an MIRV config in an Agni-V user trial.

The next config of Agni-V (Agni-V-Prime) would be an all-composite stage, given that the technology has also been proven on Agni-P

Some thoughts on Agni-P

1) All stage composite
2) Half the weight of Agni-3 & shorter, but similar range
3) MARV with multiple-warheads
4) Highly accurate

Godspeed!

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Sep 2021 00:16

Prem Kumar wrote: 1) All stage composite
2) Half the weight of Agni-3 & shorter, but similar range
3) MARV with multiple-warheads
4) Highly accurate

Godspeed!

MARV ? ..its MIRV ., guess one needs to walk before running.

williams · Post by **williams** » 14 Sep 2021 01:01

kit wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote: 1) All stage composite
2) Half the weight of Agni-3 & shorter, but similar range
3) MARV with multiple-warheads
4) Highly accurate

Godspeed!
MARV ? ..its MIRV ., guess one needs to walk before running.

Well Agni RVs are maneuverable for a long time now.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 Sep 2021 11:32

kit: as williams says above, we mastered MARV long time back & even deployed but for single warheads. The twist in Agni-P and potentially Agni-V is a combination of an MIRV-bus, which is also maneuverable. It will zig-zag & bounce in the upper atmosphere releasing one warhead after another accurately at their respective targets, potentially separated by 100s of Kms.

This is some serious stuff!

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 14 Sep 2021 12:10

kit wrote:
vipins wrote:India to conduct first user trial of Agni-V missile
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 57942.html
13 Sept 2021

Bit difficult to believe its just two MIRV for a nation that parked more than two dozen satellites in orbit in one go., maybe it has do with warhead weight?

https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 32966?s=19

Quote:

About 9 yrs ago Sri K Santhanam shared with me that two warhead MIRV was the first design target for Indian Agni series, as I understand he was involved in doing the initial system study. 2/6

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Sep 2021 12:13

Is this 2 warhead thing another 5000km pawam pulao or is there a technical reason behind this?

kit · Post by **kit** » 14 Sep 2021 12:42

Prem Kumar wrote:kit: as williams says above, we mastered MARV long time back & even deployed but for single warheads. The twist in Agni-P and potentially Agni-V is a combination of an MIRV-bus, which is also maneuverable. It will zig-zag & bounce in the upper atmosphere releasing one warhead after another accurately at their respective targets, potentially separated by 100s of Kms.

This is some serious stuff!

Indeed, and good to know., explains India's confidence in its nuclear deterrence.

nam · Post by **nam** » 14 Sep 2021 16:07

I am early waiting for 2 missile. Astra MK2 & SFDR. These 2 missile would take away the BVR threat on us.

Despite all the big claims by Pak, I am not very convinced that the Chinis will easily provide PL-15 to PAF. if the jokers have shared the Aim120 capability with the Chinis, the Chinis will be wary of trusting the Pak with their primary modern BVR!

Once Astra 2 & SFDR comes online, PAF will not be able to get an external solution to cover the gap. They will come up with some pindi channa PR about some jinn ECM, but that's about it.

Chinis are not going to provide their primary kit just because the Paks chase us in the arms race. There is no video of SD10 being fired from JF17. Looks like the Chinis didn't fully integrate SD10/PL12 until PL-15 came online.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 Sep 2021 16:32

In any future conflict or even a Balakot type attack, India should wargame & be ready to destroy the PAF on the ground - in its entirety.

This is do'able and just needs the political will: we need to bulk up on our arsenal to do the job: Brahmos, Prithvi/Shaurya, SAAW & bunker-busters. The attack should be massive, pre-emptive and done overnight - before they can say pindi-channa.

In this process, we'd have destroyed the bulk of their N-delivery mechanism. Amir Khan will not be able to justify any more AIM-120D supplies to Pakistan because they'd have nothing to launch them from.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 14 Sep 2021 21:50

Pl15 is better than even meteor, its is powered by djinn propulsion. Pl21 is 400 km range and next chini mijjile would have 1000km range.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Sep 2021 02:23

Anti-tank missile completes all trials

The helicopter-launched Nag Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM), Helina, being developed indigenously, has completed all trials and the process for issuing of Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) by the Army has started, said Sachin Sood, Project Director of Helina and Dhruvastra at the Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) Hyderabad, a laboratory of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).
:
:
:

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 20 Sep 2021 02:32

that solves the LCH and Dhruva issue. Now please, pretty please can we get on with mass producing LCH

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Sep 2021 09:23

fanne wrote:that solves the LCH and Dhruva issue. Now please, pretty please can we get on with mass producing LCH

Only the Dhruv issue, it seems. The above says,

Stating that the Air Force had asked for the feasibility of integrating the Helina on the soon-to-be inducted Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), Dr. Sood said this would be done and would bring in economies of scale in the production of the missile.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Sep 2021 10:37

Helina's main platform was LCH (other than Rudra) and the human-machine interfaces are still being worked on. Not sure why they aren't completed already.

Anyway, good news! Hope the AoN, RFP, induction process happens quickly

basant · Post by **basant** » 20 Sep 2021 11:42

Hopefully, the development would be over soon. HAL made LCH, and without customer asking, it was not necessary for them to try porting a missile under development (of a different body) to LCH. OTOH, the military did not even bother to take delivery or did even show urgency for LCH.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Sep 2021 11:47

Sridhar,

If the the missile is ready and the tests for the lot of 40 missiles goes well. Then it's integration with LCH is just a formality. Will not take more than 18 months for the process to be completed.

Having said that, I would like to see SANT &Dhruvastra being integrated on the AH64 as well. Subject to technical compatibility.

That would prevent us from going to the Americans hat in hand for emergency purchase of Hellfire.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2021 16:08

This is excellent news and I hope the production order is placed asap. I hope the same was done for Astra and SAAW as well (we had reports of both of them being cleared for acquisition).

basant · Post by **basant** » 20 Sep 2021 16:41

Mods, this is page 116. Just FYI.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Sep 2021 16:54

Is it IB4TL time already?

titash · Post by **titash** » 20 Sep 2021 19:25

basant wrote:Hopefully, the development would be over soon. HAL made LCH, and without customer asking, it was not necessary for them to try porting a missile under development (of a different body) to LCH. OTOH, the military did not even bother to take delivery or did even show urgency for LCH.

There are 76 Rudras flying *today*

That’s more than enough for anti-armor duties in the plains where the Pakis field 1000s of tanks

The LCH is more of a Siachen / Ladakh / Arunachal bird wherein enemy armor is numerically in the 10s let alone 100s

No rush for the LCH IMHO

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Sep 2021 19:31

Yes, but the Rudras are not nearly as survivable as LCHs, especially against small arms fire, IR camouflage etc. So, if a Kargil occurs again, we will be in the same situation as we were in 1999

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 21 Sep 2021 02:03

Series of tweets by VatsRohit @KesariDhwaj on HELINA & DHRUVASTRA

The LCH & WSI DHRV may soon be armed with #INDIGENOUS #India manufactured ATGMS . The DHRUVASTRA completes all trials , initial batch order of 40 launchers & 500 #missiles on the anvil .

https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 52452?s=19

I keep hearing this soon for 4-5 years now.

https://twitter.com/cvkrishnan/status/1 ... 47403?s=19

VatsRohit @KesariDhwaj

That is because our defense journalists do not do their own analysis of R&D projects. And simply parrot what DRDO/others tells them. And most people who follow defense take it at face value. Let me ask you this - do you see any difference in the two pics of HELINA launch below:

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 67104?s=19

Defense R&D is a complex, and time consuming business. Especially for us, when DRDO has had to develop a lot of tech de-novo. Because no scientific base existed on civilian side, or foreign OEM won't sell to us. ATGM is classic case where we decided to develop a Fire-and-Forget+

+ ATGM from word go, when the whole world was engaged in developing, and inducting 2nd Gen, SACLOS ATGMs. Even today, bulk of ATGMs across the world are 2nd Gen, including us. Holy grail of 3rd Gen F&F ATGM is Focal Plane Array (FPA), a tech which very very few companies have. +

After trying for years, we finally got the FPA of required sensitivity from France, and this allowed NAG to operate across the day. Unlike earlier when it could not distinguish target + ground between 11am-2pm. Because temp difference between target and surrounding was low, and+

+ missile seeker could not distinguish between the two. I think now we have our own FPA. Coming back to the pics of HELINA I posted, HELINA being derivative of NAG, the booster motor is ahead of sustainer and fired through mid-body exhausts like below. This is OK for NAG but in +

+ case of HELINA, this I think was found to be impacting platform stability. Hence, the very design of HELINA was changed internally and now, the booster motor fires through

+ the main body itself. All this comes from learning on the job, and live testing. And takes time. But like in radars, and SAM, once we have basic knowhow, and building blocks, next iteration will be that much shorter. That is why in parallel, Dhruvastra is being developed +

+ which is a highly complex missile, with most probably multiple seeker tech in same missile. Somewhere close to Brimstone missiles

From 2019 - When new design HELINA was first tested, along with enhanced seeker which allowed Lock-On Before Launch (LOBL) at 6-7 km, the intended target range for HELINA.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 21 Sep 2021 06:01

Prem Kumar wrote:Yes, but the Rudras are not nearly as survivable as LCHs, especially against small arms fire, IR camouflage etc. So, if a Kargil occurs again, we will be in the same situation as we were in 1999

Yes but with the precision weaponry and the way arty was used in Kargil I don't think we would use heptrs in that kind of role every again. Because of the geography of Kargil etc small arms fire is not the worry it is MANPADS...

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Sep 2021 13:42

Yes and the LCH is designed to defeat MANPADS by:

(a) Lowered visual and IR signature
(b) Sleeker design to present a lower RCS
(c) Laser warning system, MAWS, countermeasures
(d) Rough handling & better crash-worthiness

Though its of the same Dhruv pedigree, the LCH was designed from the ground-up to be an attack helicopter, unlike the Rudra

With the 7 Km range of Helina, both the Rudra & LCH will be well outside the MANPAD envelope. But you can always be surprised from a MANPAD launch from a hidden enemy at close ranges.

In Kargil, though artillery was used extensively, its not as accurate in the mountains. And fighters cannot get close enough to loiter and take out hidden targets. If a Kargil happens again, we will use everything: artillery, UAVs, Rudras/LCHs, fighters. Hopefully we won't send our jawans on suicidal frontal attacks because our jernails & MoD babus were too busy scratching their testimonials instead of procuring war-winning equipment.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 21 Sep 2021 14:11

Prem Kumar wrote:Yes and the LCH is designed to defeat MANPADS by:

(a) Lowered visual and IR signature
(b) Sleeker design to present a lower RCS
(c) Laser warning system, MAWS, countermeasures
(d) Rough handling & better crash-worthiness

Though its of the same Dhruv pedigree, the LCH was designed from the ground-up to be an attack helicopter, unlike the Rudra

With the 7 Km range of Helina, both the Rudra & LCH will be well outside the MANPAD envelope. But you can always be surprised from a MANPAD launch from a hidden enemy at close ranges.

In Kargil, though artillery was used extensively, its not as accurate in the mountains. And fighters cannot get close enough to loiter and take out hidden targets. If a Kargil happens again, we will use everything: artillery, UAVs, Rudras/LCHs, fighters. Hopefully we won't send our jawans on suicidal frontal attacks because our jernails & MoD babus were too busy scratching their testimonials instead of procuring war-winning equipment.

Have you been to Kargil?

How effective would all those counter measures be when your reaction is much less than when in the plains?

I still maintain a Kargil type env where the heptr is hemmed in by the mountains is not a good place for a heptr.