Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Meanwhile DRDO spent years on PAFC AIP system. All that effort going to be wasted?
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Would LiFePO4 be a viable alternative here? While the energy density is lower (possibly even by half) it is much safer and will require less packing/cooling overhead compared with traditional Li ion.bala wrote:An AIP with Li-ion design makes sense, provided the fire issues are addressed. There are other technologies mostly in R&D that do not use Li-ion for battery cell.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
What's the point. The Indian Navy is happy to wait another 5 to 10 years for a foreign designed made in India boat. With foreign systems.
They will continue to seek unobtanium.
The planned nuclear submarine cannot be laid down before 2024. Entering service not before 2031 at the earliest.
They will continue to seek unobtanium.
The planned nuclear submarine cannot be laid down before 2024. Entering service not before 2031 at the earliest.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
I have mentioned it while back the need to develop our own gas turbines and large diesel engines as Chinese have done so. Good to see some progress on that.
Moving Away From Western Tech – India Hints At Fully Indigenous Engines As Navy Launches Its Sixth Scorpene-Class Submarine
https://eurasiantimes.com/india-hints-a ... arine/?amp
Moving Away From Western Tech – India Hints At Fully Indigenous Engines As Navy Launches Its Sixth Scorpene-Class Submarine
https://eurasiantimes.com/india-hints-a ... arine/?amp
While talking about achieving “90% indigenization” in the floating front of warship construction, Kumar said even the ‘move’ aspect where marine power plants are traditionally imported will see change with the government tying up with private industry to develop engines.
The engines will be developed under the ‘Make 1’ category of the Defense Acquisition Procedure (DAP) where 70% of the development costs will be borne by the Indian government. MKU (Germany) and Zorya (Ukraine) are two of the leading suppliers of ship engines like Combined Gas and Gas (COGAG) and Combined Diesel and Gas (CODAG) for Indian warships.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
NaMo visit to the EU in May might give us more insight into this.
John, MKU is MGT and Diesel engines?
I know Zorya is MGT.
John, MKU is MGT and Diesel engines?
I know Zorya is MGT.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Yes Zorya supplies Gas Turbines and along with GE we only have two vendors. Where as for Diesel we have MTU (used by patrol vessels and scorpene), Pielstick, MAN Diesel (P-17a).ramana wrote:NaMo visit to the EU in May might give us more insight into this.
John, MKU is MGT and Diesel engines?
I know Zorya is MGT.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
WartsilaJohn wrote:Yes Zorya supplies Gas Turbines and along with GE we only have two vendors. Where as for Diesel we have MTU (used by patrol vessels and scorpene), Pielstick, MAN Diesel (P-17a).ramana wrote:NaMo visit to the EU in May might give us more insight into this.
John, MKU is MGT and Diesel engines?
I know Zorya is MGT.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
yensoy wrote:Would LiFePO4 be a viable alternative here? While the energy density is lower (possibly even by half) it is much safer and will require less packing/cooling overhead compared with traditional Li ion.bala wrote:An AIP with Li-ion design makes sense, provided the fire issues are addressed. There are other technologies mostly in R&D that do not use Li-ion for battery cell.
yeah, been thinking about that too! I think the safety of Li-ion is no different that other combustible fuels. If we can enclose it in a chamber where we can control oxygen in case of emergency and have good overall thermal management, it can be mitigated quite a bit.
Really wish we could have a stack of 100 watt nuclear batteries and stack em up to get to 1-2 MW and store the energy in next gen batteries.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Pielstick is owned by MAN Diesel, BTW.John wrote: Where as for Diesel we have MTU (used by patrol vessels and scorpene), Pielstick, MAN Diesel (P-17a).
Also cummins does diesels for some auxiliaries and generators for some warships
Last edited by Barath on 03 May 2022 04:31, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Yeap and I believe MTU is now owned by Rolls Royce and some have said Rolls Royce is supplying turbines for NGMV (not confirmed).Barath wrote:Pielstick is owned by MAN Diesel, BTW.John wrote: Where as for Diesel we have MTU (used by patrol vessels and scorpene), Pielstick, MAN Diesel (P-17a).
Also cummins does diesels for some auxiliaries and generators for some warships
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
I'm not sure that RR for NGMV is confirmed, despite wiki. It would be logical, though. CODAG with RR providing both
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Keel Laying of Second Ship – Diving Support Craft At m/s Titagarh Wagons Ltd, Kolkata on May 5, 2022
https://orissadiary.com/keel-laying-of- ... d-kolkata/
https://orissadiary.com/keel-laying-of- ... d-kolkata/
New Delhi : Keel laying for the second ship of Diving Support Craft (DSC) project was held on 05 May 22 at M/s Titagarh Wagons Ltd., Kolkata. The contract for procurement of Five Diving Support Craft (Yards 325 to 329) for the Indian Navy was signed on 12 Feb 21 with M/s Titagarh Wagons Ltd., at a total project cost of Rs 174.77 Cr.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
https://twitter.com/DrPVVenkitakri1/sta ... LlU9iud8gw ---> DRDO will get a KILO class submarine from Indian Navy to test Electric Propulsion motor, Li-ion battery, AIP and other Technologies. This will be used as a research vessel for the development of next-generation systems and components for the development of 12 indigenous submarine.
https://twitter.com/8r02s125558/status/ ... LlU9iud8gw ---> DRDO will get a Kilo Class submarine from Indian Navy to test Electric Propulsion motor, Li-ion battery, AIP and other technologies.
https://twitter.com/8r02s125558/status/ ... LlU9iud8gw ---> This sub will be used as a research vessel for the development of next-generation systems and components for the development of 12 indigenous submarine. These submarines will go into to manufacturing from 2030.
https://twitter.com/8r02s125558/status/ ... LlU9iud8gw ---> DRDO will get a Kilo Class submarine from Indian Navy to test Electric Propulsion motor, Li-ion battery, AIP and other technologies.
https://twitter.com/8r02s125558/status/ ... LlU9iud8gw ---> This sub will be used as a research vessel for the development of next-generation systems and components for the development of 12 indigenous submarine. These submarines will go into to manufacturing from 2030.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Finally some sense prevails in the services.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
12 indigenous submarines
finally
finally
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
In the end, I expect the Indian govt to order 6 more Kalvari's with DRDO's AIP before going full steam on the 12 indigenous submarines.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Source ?kit wrote:12 indigenous submarines
finally
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Admiral,
Can we do 12 simple diesel electric subs on our own without waiting for DRDO’s super duper R&D stuff?
Can we do 12 simple diesel electric subs on our own without waiting for DRDO’s super duper R&D stuff?
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
In the absence of further orders from the Indian Navy. The MDL sub building centre is expected to remain idle for the next 8 years.
But we are supposed to celebrate a potential order for 12 indigenous boats from 2030.
Is this a joke?
But we are supposed to celebrate a potential order for 12 indigenous boats from 2030.
Is this a joke?
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Arihant had given the Indian Navy an excellent template. Based on the experience gained from designing her. It was quite possible to design 3000 to 4000 tons conventional submarine. The problem to solve with the new submarines would be finding a suitable diesel power plant and designing a snorkeling system for its specific air requirements. The AIP could have been fitted during a MLU.ks_sachin wrote:Admiral,
Can we do 12 simple diesel electric subs on our own without waiting for DRDO’s super duper R&D stuff?
Starting with the concept in 2009 or 2010. The first boat would have entered production in 2017-18 time frame.
This approach would have given us our first generation SSK. With designers focused right now with the second generation nuke and conventional submarines.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
From where we will get the diesel powerplant? We don't have an in-house proven design that we can incorporate into a boat. We don't even have an in-house SSK design.ks_sachin wrote:Admiral,
Can we do 12 simple diesel electric subs on our own without waiting for DRDO’s super duper R&D stuff?
The 30 year submarine plan - envisaged in 1999 - called for a total of 24 submarines --> six under Project 75, six under Project 75I and then another 12 (of an indigenous design) from the lessons learnt in Project 75 and Project 75I under a program called Project 76. That plan - 23 years later - is now gone astray. No diesel powerplant and the boat is useless, because obviously she will not be able to move. This is why the Pakistan Navy's Hangor (export variant of the Chinese Type 039A boat called S-20) Class program is suffering, because Germany is refusing to sell the diesel engines to Pakistan and Pakistan does not want to use the Chinese engines. So we will have to buy the powerplant from France (Naval Group) or Germany (HDW) or Sweden (Saab). Doable, but that would require our Babus to think outside the box. Not happening.
Since the Scorpene design is compromised and the Navy does not want anymore of them, the best option now is to go in for an off the shelf purchase of the German boat - a Type 214 derivative or France's Shortfin Barracuda design. The Type 214 is the export variant of the Type 212 that is used by the German and Italian navies. The Type 212 has a nonmagnetic hull that is not susceptible to detection by magnetic anomaly detectors and has a water ram expulsion system to launch torpedoes. The Type 214 will also be cheaper than the Shortfin Barracuda. The other decision that must be made is the selection of a new generation torpedo for the six Scorpene Class boats i.e. either the F-21 from Naval Group of France or the Black Shark from WASS of Italy (the original choice for the IN's Scorpene boat) or the DM2A4 from Atlas Elektronik of Germany (currently used by the Pakistan Navy's Agosta 90B submarines). Whichever torpedo acquired needs to be compatible with whatever vessel comes under the Project 75I program.
Buy one of these boats as 100% non-ToT and use them as is. And it is vital because we will have only six modern SSKs by the end of this decade. The next 12 boats - under Project 76 - can feature all the new gizmos that the Kilo boat will be retrofitted with i.e. Integrated Electric Propulsion, Lithium Ion battery, Air Independent Propulsion, etc. The rumours making the rounds is that France will offer the Shortfin Barracuda design, along with the LEU (Low Enriched Uranium) reactor design from the Barracuda (Suffren) Class for the Indian Navy's Project 75 Alpha. The P-75A program is the IN's planned six-build SSN vessel contract. This is a good move - testing those technologies on a Kilo Class boat - so when the first Project 76 vessel is launched, she will have proven sub-systems (AIP, IEP, LI battery, etc).
The new school of thought is electric propulsion. This was pioneered by the Japanese Navy's last two Soryu Class (the Ōryū and Tōryū) submarines and was then followed by the Soryu Class' successor (the Taigei Class). Lithium Ion, so *VERY* quiet. The Oryu and Tōryū feature a diesel electric powerplant plus a lithium ion battery, but I believe (will have to confirm) the Taigei Class has an electric motor that is powered by a lithium ion battery. Since batteries make no noise - when discharging power - the noise level is virtually zero. The only mechanical sounds that should come will be from the electric motor that drives the shaft, which in turn causes the propeller to turn. A submarine's greatest weapon is remaining undetectable. Everything else (torpedoes, missiles, mines, etc) is secondary.
And propeller design is a whole other science unto itself. Propeller Cavitation ---> https://www.iims.org.uk/introduction-pr ... avitation/ is studied and continuously refined by navies the world over. Some navies - that can afford it - are now also incorporating pump jet propulsion ---> https://www.aph.gov.au/documentstore.as ... ater%20jet. The US Navy's Virginia Class and the French Navy's Suffren (Barracuda Class) use pump jet propulsion.
Integrated Electric Propulsion is the new future and General Electric and BHEL recently signed a MoU to collaborate on this technology. See below.
BHEL signs Memorandum of Understanding with GE Power Conversion
https://www.ge.com/news/press-releases/ ... lopment-of
28 April 2022
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
The 212's non magnetic steel does not seem to be suitable for deep ocean at increased depths but yes there is some trade off between stealth and deep diving subs, unless some specialty material like titanium comes to play !!Rakesh wrote:Since the Scorpene design is compromised and the Navy does not want anymore of them, the best option now is to go in for an off the shelf purchase of the German boat - a Type 214 derivative or France's Shortfin Barracuda design. The Type 214 is the export variant of the Type 212 that is used by the German and Italian navies. The Type 212 has a nonmagnetic hull that is not susceptible to detection by magnetic anomaly detectors and has a water ram expulsion system to launch torpedoes. The Type 214 will also be cheaper than the Shortfin Barracuda.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
The Soviet Navy's Alfa Class submarine had a titanium hull. Very expensive to build and she was a very noisy boat, but she was a hot rod. She could fly under the ocean! We are not going to put titanium in our boats. Our babus will get asthma attack when they see the cost. And unlike the Soviet Union, we have issues called audits (CAG) and democracy.
I forgot to mention that the export Type 214 submarine does not have the non-magnetic hull of the Type 212 submarine. Greece, Portugal and South Korea are the export customers for the Type 214. The non-magnetic hull is reserved only for the German and Italian navies
I forgot to mention that the export Type 214 submarine does not have the non-magnetic hull of the Type 212 submarine. Greece, Portugal and South Korea are the export customers for the Type 214. The non-magnetic hull is reserved only for the German and Italian navies
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
In the Indian Navy's submarine community, there are ardent believers of Western designs (Type 209) versus Russian designs (Foxtrot, Kilo, Charlie and Akula). Project 76 was to take the best from the Western design and the best from the Russian design and come up with an Indianized version of the two. Obviously that is not going to happen now.Rakesh wrote:The 30 year submarine plan - envisaged in 1999 - called for a total of 24 submarines --> six under Project 75, six under Project 75I and then another 12 (of an indigenous design) from the lessons learnt in Project 75 and Project 75I under a program called Project 76.
The Pakistan Navy's submarine community has been largely of French and American origin. They are in for a very rude shock when the first of their S-20 Class submarines gets commissioned. I believe Zardari (Mr 10%) torpedoed their Type 214 deal in favour of the Chinese boat. Good for us. The Navy of Thailand has given China an ultimatium - either install German engines onboard their S-20 boats or they will cancel the deal altogether. Pakistan cannot afford to do that. They handed their sovereignty to China a long time ago.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Rakeshji
A question then?
If the future is Orange(so to speak) why go Green
Meaning if the future is Lithium Ion electric propulsion then why go regular Diesel Sub.
Anything that is stopping from a deal with Japs
We could do the same non TOT for 6 boats
We get to use the new technology
Gives DRDO a chance and time for their own AIP/Battery etc to mature looking at the Jap boat.
Hopefully the BHEL JV may bear fruit earlier that DRDO stuff
We pulled back from the ShinMaywa deal for what ever reason
I dont think the Jap wont do the deal because of Chin pressure
But what the force behind Sleepy Joe facade will do for a deal like Taigei not sure!!
A question then?
If the future is Orange(so to speak) why go Green
Meaning if the future is Lithium Ion electric propulsion then why go regular Diesel Sub.
Anything that is stopping from a deal with Japs
We could do the same non TOT for 6 boats
We get to use the new technology
Gives DRDO a chance and time for their own AIP/Battery etc to mature looking at the Jap boat.
Hopefully the BHEL JV may bear fruit earlier that DRDO stuff
We pulled back from the ShinMaywa deal for what ever reason
I dont think the Jap wont do the deal because of Chin pressure
But what the force behind Sleepy Joe facade will do for a deal like Taigei not sure!!
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Every submarine fitted with Lithium battery will still require a diesel power pack for recharging.Rsatchi wrote:Rakeshji
A question then?
If the future is Orange(so to speak) why go Green
Meaning if the future is Lithium Ion electric propulsion then why go regular Diesel Sub.
Anything that is stopping from a deal with Japs
Snip.....
It's mostly replacement of lead acid battery with lithium battery. Along with installation of relevant safety devices.
These boats are thought to be the future (because of the energy density of such cells) when compared to a lead acid battery or other forms of non nuclear AIP.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Admiral sa'ab, do you mean to say that the Bakistan navy of future is going to be a switch role 'Yin-Yang' navy... with the surface fleet spending a lot of time below the water line and the submarine fleet above it?Rakesh wrote:...
The Pakistan Navy's submarine community has been largely of French and American origin. They are in for a very rude shock when the first of their S-20 Class submarines gets commissioned. I believe Zardari (Mr 10%) torpedoed their Type 214 deal in favour of the Chinese boat. Good for us. The Navy of Thailand has given China an ultimatium - either install German engines onboard their S-20 boats or they will cancel the deal altogether. Pakistan cannot afford to do that. They handed their sovereignty to China a long time ago.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
I am optimistic despite all the news., the Navy has all the required technology or has access to it for an entirely new class of subs., just a matter of dedicated funding and effort... much like the LCA!! Frankly the Navy shows how to the other services
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Pratyush replied to the first part of your post and he is correct. The Taigei Class also feature a diesel powerplant, as that is required to recharge the lithium ion battery. My fault. Sorry. Japan is among the global leaders in lithium ion (Li-ion) batteries and her predecessor ---> nickel–cadmium (Ni-Cd). They are widely used in their automotive industry and they have around three decades worth of actual customer experience & feedback. So upscaling Li-ion battery technology to power a submarine is not insurmountable for the Japanese.Rsatchi wrote:Rakeshji
A question then?
If the future is Orange(so to speak) why go Green
Meaning if the future is Lithium Ion electric propulsion then why go regular Diesel Sub.
Toyota Hybrids all feature Ni-Cd batteries and they now are moving platforms to Li-ion (the Toyota Rav4 Prime is a good example). They have recently come out with something even better than Li-ion, which is solid state (SS) batteries. This is supposed to be revolutionary, because the shelf life of Li-ion batteries is not long. Solid state batteries on the other hand are reportedly lighter, have a quicker charge time and can hold their effectiveness for a longer period of time. All in all, a win-win situation. But we are quite a bit way off, before we can even begin to conceive of upscaling such a battery technology into a submarine. I don't want to digress from the thread topic, but here are a couple of videos to wet your feet in SS battery technology if you are interested. Youtube has many more videos on the topic.
* Exploring When Solid State Batteries Will Arrive ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PyXQ0UXk9w
* Toyota FINALLY Reveals New Solid State Battery in 2022! ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2ou4JQbuZQ
The Japanese are a highly cultured and deeply ethical nation. They got emotionally scarred when they lost out to France in Australia's next generation SSK program, to replace their ageing Collins Class of submarines. The Japanese were the clear favourites to win. But Karma has a weird way of working out in life. The French in turn got soundly routed themselves, when they were given the boot in favour of nuclear powered submarine technology from the UK and US. When Japan lost in Australia, they were not interested in participating in India's P-75I program. And despite the late-Manohar Parrikar personally requesting them to do so. There is no indication - to date - that has changed.Rsatchi wrote:Anything that is stopping from a deal with Japs
We could do the same non TOT for 6 boats
We get to use the new technology
Gives DRDO a chance and time for their own AIP/Battery etc to mature looking at the Jap boat.
Hopefully the BHEL JV may bear fruit earlier that DRDO stuff
We pulled back from the ShinMaywa deal for what ever reason
I dont think the Jap wont do the deal because of Chin pressure
But what the force behind Sleepy Joe facade will do for a deal like Taigei not sure!!
I pity the poor Japanese who have to deal with our bania babus and with our services and their constantly-changing-requirements. The Japanese will pull their hair out and get themselves checked into mental asylums after working with India. Kudos to the French and the Americans who deal with us in arms deals. We can never make up our mind on anything. Partnering with Japan will require clear cut, set-in-stone commitments from our side. We just don't have that discipline, due to severe brochuritis. We also suffer from acute bania-fever. We want to be a superpower but will commit the less than bare minimum required to do so. Long Term Perspective Planning is a foreign concept to us. The Japanese eat that for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Govt instability in Japan does not necessarily threaten their defence programs in principle. Not so in India.
Our hope now lies in our own efforts plus with whatever fruits the BHEL-GE joint venture brings. Below is a good (open source) article on the Taigei Class boat and should give some indication of what a future Indian SSK might have;
Lithium-ion powered Taigei Class gives Japan a massive submarine advantage against China
https://frontierindia.com/lithium-ion-p ... nst-china/
17 March 2022
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Naval HQ will ask for Li-ion with back up SS battery, all combined into a AIP system and powered by a nuclear reactor.
Ask for unobtanium and then wait for eons for said product to arrive. In the meanwhile, run never ending contests to acquire phoren boats.
At each Navy Day function on Dec 04th, parrot the standard cliched line, "No expense shall be spared in the defense of the nation."
Ask for unobtanium and then wait for eons for said product to arrive. In the meanwhile, run never ending contests to acquire phoren boats.
At each Navy Day function on Dec 04th, parrot the standard cliched line, "No expense shall be spared in the defense of the nation."
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
You forgot photon torpedos and eye of Sauron powered Sonar..Rakesh wrote:Naval HQ will ask for Li-ion with back up SS battery, all combined into a AIP system and powered by a nuclear reactor.
Ask for unobtanium and then wait for eons for said product to arrive. In the meanwhile, run never ending contests to acquire phoren boats.
At each Navy Day function on Dec 04th, parrot the standard cliched line, "No expense shall be spared in the defense of the nation."
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
RakeshRakesh wrote: . So we will have to buy the powerplant from France (Naval Group) or Germany (HDW) or Sweden (Saab).
None of the shipyards mentioned above make any powerplant
The major manufacturers of marine diesel engines are MTU - Germany, MAN - Germany, Wartsila (Finland), Rolls Royce (UK), Mitsubishi (Japan), Hyundai (Korea) and of course Kirloskar (India) for smaller capacities.
The major manufacturers of large gear boxex for marine use is RENK and RUAG both of Germany
This excludes Russian, Chinese and east European suppliers.
I do not recollect any Swedish manufacturer
This is to the best of my knowledge. There could be other supplier too.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Kersi, thank you for the clarification.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Edwardd Luttwak on the USS Ford and its Cost due to EMALS.
So why does IN want a nuke carrier with EMALS only?Edward Luttwak : Look. The last U.S. aircraft carrier, USS Ford, cost thirteen billion dollars. Its predecessor, don’t ask me why … CVN, aircraft carrier nuclear. Ford cost thirteen billion, the predecessor was seven billion. They maintain the exact same size, shape, forms, hangers, and so on, but they manage to spend five billion dollars in adding an electrostatic catapult instead of a steam catapult. This is called baroque rococo embellishment. This is not a chair, a chair that costs five dollars is ten thousand dollars because of rococo enhancement.
The difference between electrostatic, electromagnetic whatever it is and steam is very little. It’s the aircraft carrier itself that’s questionable. In other words, the armed forces in regard to equipment have become some sort of historic preservation society. ....
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Do you have a link for this, sir?ramana wrote:Edwardd Luttwak on the USS Ford and its Cost due to EMALS.
I think this is a slightly disingenuous take on the EMALS, as well as a bit of creative fuzzying of development costs vs unit costs. The $5 bn is a mix of increased cost of manufacture, program costs and overall deployment cost since the USS Ford is first-in-class. This will amortize with follow-on ships in the class.Edward Luttwak : Look. The last U.S. aircraft carrier, USS Ford, cost thirteen billion dollars. Its predecessor, don’t ask me why … CVN, aircraft carrier nuclear. Ford cost thirteen billion, the predecessor was seven billion. They maintain the exact same size, shape, forms, hangers, and so on, but they manage to spend five billion dollars in adding an electrostatic catapult instead of a steam catapult. This is called baroque rococo embellishment. This is not a chair, a chair that costs five dollars is ten thousand dollars because of rococo enhancement.
The difference between electrostatic, electromagnetic whatever it is and steam is very little. It’s the aircraft carrier itself that’s questionable. In other words, the armed forces in regard to equipment have become some sort of historic preservation society. ....
The argument Luttwak makes is also a bit akin to "The Mig-21/27/29/Mirage is working out great right now, so why do we need to even work on the LCA?" A more accurate analogy might be the early history of solar cells, which were significantly more expensive at energy production than fossil-fuel based electricity generation. That didn't stop us from working on them to the point where photovoltaics are now often cheaper than coal-based power.
There are a number of advantages to EMALS - lighter weight, stress, complexity, maintenance requirements, energy needs, higher recharge (and therefore, launch) rate. Adaptive power delivery, which means both higher diversity of aircrafts and weights that can be launched, and significantly lower airframe stress. Just removing the need for a large, heavy, and complex steam boiler is a big advantage.
EMALS IS going to be the future. What we see now is just the standard growing pains with a new technology competing against an existing mature technology. The USS Ford might be a terrible aircraft carrier because of all the new systems, but it'll lead to more mature, highly effective supercarriers in the next decade.
That said, I agree with you about IN's wish for EMALS. They should look to it for the 4th carrier, but now is the time to get another IAC or two quickly, and if a catapult is what they want, then at least get the steam one so we have a mature, proven system.
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
In one of the Combat Approved programs on Youtube, they show a Russian nuclear submarine going through a process of hull de-magnetization in its home port before it heads out to sea. Don't know if Indian subs follow the same practice.Rakesh wrote: I forgot to mention that the export Type 214 submarine does not have the non-magnetic hull of the Type 212 submarine. Greece, Portugal and South Korea are the export customers for the Type 214. The non-magnetic hull is reserved only for the German and Italian navies
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
Two India-made warships enter the water today
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/05/two- ... water.html
16 May 2022
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/05/two- ... water.html
16 May 2022
Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 12 April 2021
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/153 ... 744SLBfIiA ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on the fin of Scorpène No.2 INS Khanderi today with the Indian Navy.
https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 744SLBfIiA ---> RM Shri Rajnath Singh undertakes sea sortie on stealth submarine ‘INS Khanderi’ at Karwar. The RM witnessed a wide range of operational drills with the submarine demonstrating the advanced sensor suite, combat system and weapon capabilities.
https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 744SLBfIiA ---> RM Shri Rajnath Singh undertakes sea sortie on stealth submarine ‘INS Khanderi’ at Karwar. The RM witnessed a wide range of operational drills with the submarine demonstrating the advanced sensor suite, combat system and weapon capabilities.