Radar - Specs & Discussions

Vicky · Post by **Vicky** » 18 Dec 2021 15:42

fanne wrote:so we have ability to manufacture GaN

Since atleast 2017 as QRSAM has a GaN radar. X-band was late and only started production in around 2020. Other bands were in production since atleast 2017. Currently X-band GaN QTRM planks are being designed for Uttam's successor. The recent press release highlights the final signoff of all the X-band GaN work.

Earlier only SSPL designed the GaN HEMT and MMIC structures, now they have standardised and handed over a dev kit so that other labs like DLRL, LRDE and companies like BEL can design their own MMIC's. S, X and L-band GaN MMIC's fom SSPL exist already and some of them are in poduction.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 18 Dec 2021 20:47

Why is then sjha1618 asking GOI to invest additional 3000 crores? To increase capacity? I hope they make enough chips to satisfy need for ground radar and tejas and others.

Vicky · Post by **Vicky** » 19 Dec 2021 13:13

fanne wrote:Why is then sjha1618 asking GOI to invest additional 3000 crores? To increase capacity? I hope they make enough chips to satisfy need for ground radar and tejas and others.

SJha claims that production capacity is insufficient. I don't know what's the truth though. Original proposal was to setup a GaN fab like what GAETEC did for GaAs at IISc Bangalore under SITAR. But that plan seems to have gone nowhere and many people assume GaN fab capacity doesn't exist as a result of inability to invest in IISc. This isn't an accurate assumption as it is clear that part or entire GAETEC is being converted/upgraded to GaN. Whether GAETEC's GaN production capacity is sufficient to meet India's needs? I don't know.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 19 Dec 2021 14:14

I thought it might be helpful to post an old article on "The benefits and challenges of using GaN technology in AESA radar systems"

https://militaryembedded.com/radar-ew/r ... ar-systems

It's not just a question of manufacture and yield; the entire circuits will require design optimization including new design rules (and/in tools) to take into account GaN based technology. Article gives example of thermal management and bias circuitry.

On a separate topic, this particular thread hasn't seen this article posted yet based on an interview by Dr Seshagiri of LRDE on Uttam a couple of weeks ago.

the developed AESA radar is 95% indigenous, with only one imported subsystem. It has the capacity to track 50 targets in the sky at a range in excess of 100km and engage four of them simultaneously.

. Also that testing on the HS800 exec jet _ 2 Tejs fightes has equled 250 hrs and there will be a demonstration flight this month. And plans for Mig29K and Su 30 MKI integration

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 19 Dec 2021 14:18

GAETEC GaN capability is based on an imported process, design capability is all inhouse developed as is the process optimization. Its sufficient for limited DRDO/services needs. Prior to that, GaN devices, especially X band and select other bands were import restricted. The DRDO's GaN design and manufacture capability allows us to match import level items or those on the commercial market (but restricted). Its good for the short and medium terms.

IISc GaN proposal is for a completely different process, based on their own research which is cutting edge and envisaged for both commercial, strategic and defense needs. It breaks us free of the need to depend on anyone else for process optimization in the longer term. Hence, the ask for funding.

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 19 Dec 2021 19:50

GAETEC though a very good GaN place....from what i know is GAETEC organization belongs to ministry of science and technology , where as the bosses come from NPL a DRDO lab...so there could be not so friendly alliance between management and lower rung personnel of GAETEC... it can not cater to the MIC GaN requirements of indian defence and Telecom industry. MoD needs to sort this out and make it a commercial organization.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Dec 2021 00:53

rrao wrote:GAETEC though a very good GaN place....from what i know is GAETEC organization belongs to ministry of science and technology , where as the bosses come from NPL a DRDO lab...so there could be not so friendly alliance between management and lower rung personnel of GAETEC... it can not cater to the MIC GaN requirements of indian defence and Telecom industry. MoD needs to sort this out and make it a commercial organization.

GAETEC has been upgraded and can now cater to defence needs, more thoroughly, and is run by DRDO. It's not meant for commercial applications. IMHO, best it remains focused on defence. That's why we need IISc to scale up for the rest.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Dec 2021 01:53

The IISC process was funded by DRDO around 10years back. So we have two process, one from SSPL and another from IISC.

DRDO foundry doesn't have capacity nor the cutting edge low nano scale tech meant for civilian market. It is good enough for defense needs. May be this might change with semiconductor PLI and commercial entities building up capacity.

Commercial GaN seems to be now available to DRDO. LRDE had issued an RFI earlier for American GaN devices.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 20 Dec 2021 02:04

nam wrote:The IISC process was funded by DRDO around 10years back. So we have two process, one from SSPL and another from IISC.

DRDO foundry doesn't have capacity nor the cutting edge low nano scale tech meant for civilian market. It is good enough for defense needs. May be this might change with semiconductor PLI and commercial entities building up capacity.

Commercial GaN seems to be now available to DRDO. LRDE had issued an RFI earlier for American GaN devices.

Are u saying commercial tech (= cutting edge low nano scale ) is more advanced than one reqd. for defence needs?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 20 Dec 2021 02:06

The domestic capacity (design, test, and produce) as those commercially available (even ITAR restricted) devices are nowhere near the level of capability of what the cutting edge military/defense specific GaN components and other supporting systems. For example, the products that Qorvo has offered to radar suppliers to the US Army and US MDA for a couple of their radar or upgrade programs are not available or even offer to their commercial customers (they are designs that are proprietary to those radar OEMs who have worked with Qorvo to develop them) so there will always be some gap between commercially available restricted components, and what's being pushed out into cutting edge military systems (not all military systems require this level of performance and I know several programs that can and do happily use COTS systems - but these aren't radar, or EW applications). Next you need volume and to field these systems and begin producing at scale to introduce user feedback and iterative improvements. Even the Raytheon's of the world go back and re-design several components for either better production or performance so cutting edge components are very much a WIP and require several iteration to make better. Lastly, even though GaN is getting matured at several levels there is still quite a lot of invention that is happening as it is being introduced in military applications and that will continue over the next decade. Even OEMs that have been at it for the last decade or two still need lot of low readiness level tech development to further improve their designs. This is true both in terms of R&D and production processes, yields, and quality improvement so that you are meeting or exceeding your cost, and reliability targets. So back to the initial point about investment they should double down on it as its a highly specialized and very competitive field where the more money you have for research, and the more volume you have for production the better you tend to get.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Dec 2021 03:49

Advanced GaN development for radar are typically on the amplification modules for radar systems. Companies like Qorvo, Wolfspeed, MACOM, NXP, and others have defense/aerospace specific products developed with radar system OEM and their subcontractors. The primes would be Raytheon, Northrop, LM, and others. MIL SPEC for surface mounted and IC components have now been replaced with the more commercial space certified components for satellites. What makes the defense industry products unique for GaN semiconductor companies are the pulse/frequency/amplitude/phase modulated capability at high frequencies (>3 GHz), power out, gain, and noise figure specifications. They aren't available to the public. However, modified COTS applications from these GaN semiconductor companies are available and they are quite good. Yes, they will be costly, but can be had as long as ITAR restrictions are approved or exemptions made.

There is enough radar expertise within India where they can approach US companies and purchase GaN semiconductor devices for their own applications. IMHO, not the same exact product need be sold to Indian defense contractors or DRDO, but enough for a stop gap until development of domestic GaN industry that would benefit both commercial and military customers. The time for from design to prototype for high frequency/power modules has been cut significantly by development of software and hardware tools in the RF industry.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2021 15:32

Mortji,
That is precisely what happened with the radar program. DRDO was able to get a few components from macom initially but were ITAR'd when they asked for bulk procurement for serial production.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Dec 2021 00:22

Prasad wrote:Mortji,
That is precisely what happened with the radar program. DRDO was able to get a few components from macom initially but were ITAR'd when they asked for bulk procurement for serial production.

Okay. So why wasn’t the initial purchase of a few ITAR restricted? It means that MACOM requested approval for a large quantity sale and one or two things happened. One US DoS/Commerce realized the sale would aid India’s indigenous programs and two MACOM production would be slowed impacting current US DAS applications.

GaN COTS semiconductor devices are quite good upto C band 6 GHz for the wireless industry, beyond that in the Ku band you have satellite comms and some radar, then X band is entirely radar applications. DRDO could use the performance specifications upto C band, and then work on X band devices. I suspect that’s what they’re probably doing. We may bad mouth DRDO quite a bit, but from what I can gather, they are a larger and more technically capable group in India’s public sector; and yes, DRDO seems to be more technically capable than ISRO based on the number of platforms and systems deployed.

The Chinese have invested heavily in the GaN semiconductor industry for both commercial and military use. Right now it is the domain of the US, Japan and EU. The PLA are about 10 years ahead of India, but I’m not so sure they’ve got as extensive radar expertise. I do know they’ve been throwing money at the problem for two decades now. I don’t see why India can’t do the same. It may be 2030 before any real production capability comes about.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 21 Dec 2021 00:45

There are clearly demarcated products that are ITAR free and ITAR restricted that these OEMs offered. Some are still pending review. These are commercial systems but restricted and not restricted defense only applications that are made unavailable after the fact. Any RF component that these firms design via government program contract either by themselves or in collaboration with a defense-contractor is generally not listed or made available for sale unless specifically pursued via the Government route. I've cited prior MDA examples and there's another US Army upgrade program that I'm aware of where Qorvo does not market many components it has co-developed with that radars OEM. The PAs that it markets that are in the same category as the ones co-developed do not offer the same performance and do not in fact meet the program requirements (they tried).

As Mort mentions there could be systems purchased that are ITAR free and yet others that aren't and several that may get released to the market while their export ruling is still in the works. Once you get to the higher frequencies they do tend to get restrictions slapped on them rather quickly.

Stepping back, these debates often lead to "we have XYZ" whereas this is an iterative process that builds on prior and current work. Milestones are often a moving target and you learn a lot as you begin designing systems, producing them at scale and then applying them on actual RF systems be it radar or EW. Often during this last phase you learn shortcomings of many of your components that did very well in demonstrations, and even during production. This then requires you to go back and re-do some of the things you thought you had mastered and had control over. Even Raytheon had to do this on the S-band SPY-6 and didn't uncover some of these things until it was well into producing full up arrays at a decent clip. Its since gone back and redesigned and approved these components but my point is that this was years after they had received their TRL ratings for the said systems.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Dec 2021 02:01

GaN high gain and high power low noise RF amplification is a phenomenon of the last 10 years. Before that GaAs worked well for low noise applications, but didn’t generate the power out or gain needed. As brar_w mentions Raytheon had to go back given they already had adequate TRL, but even other primes and subs were in the same situation. Some or many, I’m not exactly sure, cases were discover by engineers during IV&V when verifying radar performance. Where it was discovered that there are cases when GaN is not the answer to all radar problems and may introduce other technical issues.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Dec 2021 19:53

Twitter thread on radars developed by DRDO

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 17602?s=20

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Dec 2021 21:50

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 88901?s=20 ---> Construction of IAF BMD s/m progressing. In the first phase, 4 L-band LRTR are under construction/completed. These are dedicated for Western ADZ. Work progressing will complete in 2023. In phase 2, another 3 will be constructed for the western front. Work to start early 2022.

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 04708?s=20 ---> Construction of another 12 L-band High Power Radar sites. 8 for LAC and 4 for LOC, will start in 2022.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 11 Mar 2022 20:38

Former ISRO scientist’s startup to make low-altitude, high-resolution radars.

Tapan Misra, a retired scientist of the Indian Space Research Organisation, has founded a startup to make synthetic aperture radars (SAR) that will operate at low altitudes and can be fitted on drones to get more accurate images that can be used for military and civilian purposes.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 12 Mar 2022 09:50

Don't know much about Radars but a thread on Twitter about a simulation of detection of TB-2 using current Russian Radars

link
TSPAF is purchasing or using TB-2...certainly something to be considered.

One excerpt

Another Bonus test:

Adding the cutting edge E-7A Wedgetail of the RAAF to the AEW2 track gives us instant information on ALL TB2 in the scenario, and even an ID via the
@northropgrumman MESA Radar.

That seems to be one hell of a radar.

srin · Post by **srin** » 16 Mar 2022 12:24

Finally, some info on IISc GaN facility

Union Minister Rajeev Chandrasekhar visits Gallium Nitride Technology Centre

Union Minister of State for Electronics & Information Technology and Skill Development & Entrepreneurship Rajeev Chandrasekhar visited the Gallium Nitride Ecosystem Enabling Centre and Incubator (GEECI) in Bengaluru on Sunday.

Gallium Nitride (GaN) is believed to be the second most important material after silicon for electronics chips.

The facility, jointly set up by Ministry of Electronics and Information Technology and IISc Bengaluru, is aimed at establishing GaN based Development Line Foundry facility, especially for RF and power applications, including strategic applications.

"The next 2 to 3 years offer a window of opportunity for Gallium Nitride (GaN) to play a key role in enabling e-vehicles and wireless communication," Chandrasekhar said after reviewing the progress of the project and inspecting the facility.

He also saw GaN transistors fabricated in IISc Centre for Nano Science and Engineering (CeNSE) fab. The fab model in IISc will be a state-of-the-art incubation to promote indigenous development of technology, and thereby encourage final deployment into cellular infrastructure, and strategic technologies.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 18 Mar 2022 12:13

Now that the Chinese have cracked the issue of an AEW&C providing some sort of guidance to an Long Range AAM..... How long before we see such a capability in Netra as well (assuming it is not already there yet)?

Source
https://www.wionews.com/world/relativel ... sea-463208

US Air Force (USAF) general Kenneth Wilsbach said the US-built F-35 had an encounter with China's Chengdu J-20 adding that he was "relatively impressed with the command and control associated with the J-20."

The US general said the encounter took place in the East China Sea as he added that it was "too early to tell" whether the J20 would be "more like an F-35 that’s capable of doing many, many missions or more like an F-22 that is primarily an air superiority fighter".

The US general also touched on China's Shaanxi KJ-500 airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft.

Wilsbach said: "Some of their very long-range air-to-air missiles are aided by that KJ-500. Being able to interrupt that kill chain is something that interests me greatly."

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 May 2022 10:19

Army to order 12 more Swati WLRs for the China front. Good news!

https://www.indiatoday.in/defence/story ... 2022-05-12

The Toilet paper also says something interesting: "The new IA Chief Gen Manoj Pande is a major supporter of Atmanirbhar and we can expect more such orders to flow"

Gen Rawat, Gen Navarane and now Gen Pande - I think we are seeing a succession of Chiefs who are in line with the PMO's thinking.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 518383.cms

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 15 May 2022 05:03

Prem Kumar wrote:Army to order 12 more Swati WLRs for the China front. Good news!

https://www.indiatoday.in/defence/story ... 2022-05-12

The Toilet paper also says something interesting: "The new IA Chief Gen Manoj Pande is a major supporter of Atmanirbhar and we can expect more such orders to flow"

Gen Rawat, Gen Navarane and now Gen Pande - I think we are seeing a succession of Chiefs who are in line with the PMO's thinking.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 518383.cms

the question is why did it take so long for army to realize this??? these orders could have been given years back..nevertheless better late than never

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 23 Jun 2022 16:23

BEL receives order from Army to procure mountain variant of Weapon Locating Radar
June 23, 2022
https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... r-7985127/

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 04 Jul 2022 16:18

‘Divine eye’ hunts for survivors at Noney Landslide

Prabin Kalita / Jul 2, 2022

Divyachakshu is the Indian name of a hand-held portable "through wall Imaging Radar (TWIR)" developed by LRDE Bangalore ..

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Aug 2022 17:56

Video in first link below....

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... NVCfY9mzCw --->

+- 30 degree rotation of UTTAM MK-2 AESA radar

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> BIG: LRDE is looking at Uttam Mk2 antenna with a repositioner with up to +-90 degree and +-20 degree slewability in azimuth and elevation respectively. That is state of the art!

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> As you know Uttam Mk2 has better capability than Mk1 with reduced size. LRDE and ADA have also worked out how to place the antenna closer to the radome. This results in reduction in nose cone diameter by 18%. This reduces drag and opens up space behind the radar for IRST.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Aug 2022 17:02

https://idrw.org/lrde-concludes-uttam-a ... g-readied/

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 15 Aug 2022 17:40

Nothing new there.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Sep 2022 06:07

Indigenous UTTAM AESA Radar Ready: Doubts Loom Over Initial Order Size
https://delhidefencereview.com/2022/09/ ... rder-size/
05 Sept 2022

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Sep 2022 11:01

Why such doubts?

The LCA Mk1A is going to use the set. So at minimum 83 + spairs sets are a part of the initial orders.

The MK2 has 7 squadrons at minimum. So 18*7=126 unit's + spares in the second lot.

272 ? Su 30 in service, so MLU for them is that many units.

TEDBF can use the Su30 set. So whatever numbers are ordered will get those sets.

Plus the sensor platforms under development for CATS warrior.

I think we are looking at minimum of 600 sets in the first generations.

basant · Post by **basant** » 05 Sep 2022 11:42

The initial lot of Mk1A are going to have EL/M-2052 radars. This was decided a long ago.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Sep 2022 12:01

Are they?

That will reduce the numbers by what,20-30? Right?

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 05 Sep 2022 13:53

There are indications that the indigenous Uttam derivative may start equipping Tejas Mk1A fighters only from the 41st unit produced, thereby reducing the initial order size for Uttam radar sets to 33 units from the 53 units that was being projected earlier

From the article.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 05 Sep 2022 14:12

It makes no sense for the plan to be executed in the same way even today. The radar is ready to go. The first aircraft to use the radar is not even on the assembly line.

It's quite possible that the first production air craft will be equipped with the Uttam.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 05 Sep 2022 14:17

Pratyush wrote:It makes no sense for the plane to be executed in the same way even today. The radar is ready to go. The first aircraft to use the radar is not even on the assembly line.

It's quite possible that the first production air craft will be equipped with the Uttam.

The 2052 had some stipulations attached like 2 IAF ac to be equipped with.

One was the Jag and the other was the LCA.

I don’t know numbers involved but there could some conditions the Israelis put there as well for supplying the 2052.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 05 Sep 2022 17:03

Reduction in Uttam numbers on Mk1A could be due to production ramp up issues. It's not a big deal as other derivatives are clearly already being worked on.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 05 Sep 2022 17:23

Timely delivery of Mk1A is more important than the AESA it's carrying.

mody · Post by **mody** » 06 Sep 2022 13:20

Another point to consider is that almost all the 32 Tejas MK1 will also eventually get upgraded to the MK1A standard, to the extent possible. Upgrading the radar from the 2032 based MMR to Uttam Aesa, should definitely be possible and will add 32 units to the order numbers of the Uttam MK1. So total numbers will be either 53+32 or 33+32 for the Uttam MK1.
The Uttam MK2 is to come online for the Tejas MK2 from the first unit itself and upscaled derivative of the same will also be used for the TEDBF. Now as per reports, an upsclaed variant is being developed for the Su-30MKI as well.
These upgrades will probably also happen in tranches and we might see more advanced variants in the future, possibly even with GaN modules in place of GaA.

basant · Post by **basant** » 06 Sep 2022 14:38

IMHO, Mk1s will get AESA only during MLU (which can be preponed too) as they have been just delivered. In the interim, Mk1As, Mk2s and Sukhois will be carrying Uttams so it should be okay.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 06 Sep 2022 14:44

Extensive and parallel flight-testing & certification needs to happen for Mk1a for both 2052 and Uttam. Double-work, but unavoidable.

Given that Uttam has flown on 2 Tejas LSPs for 230 hours already, re-testing them on the Mk1a should not throw up big surprises. So, I am not sure where DDR heard that there will be a delay in delivery? Is it because orders need to be placed now, but aren't?