Indian Multi-Role Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

[Rakesh]

Nod for multi-role chopper by early 2024; Safran, HAL to set up firm in Bengaluru
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 087484.ece
17 July 2023

French firm Safran and HAL to set up engine plant in Bengaluru, with primary focus on the Indian Multi-Role Helicopter.

[Cybaru]

Assumptions/Predictions

- IMRH's powerplant: Will be built around a fresh engine. We will probably be using Anteo as the blueprint. We're talking 3350 shp / 2500 kW for the configuration for each engine.

- Payload for Sonam Point: Given the engine above, we could easily get a cool 2000 kgs, made up of 300 kgs of crew, 700 kgs of fuel, and 1000 kgs of payload (rough calculations)

- Indian Navy version: Plenty of juice left for an AEW radar. We're talking 20 kW at an altitude between 10-15K feet. That's some serious high-altitude surveillance and detection capabilities right there. This could seriously be our own KA-31 replacement of the future.

[Kartik]

Assumptions/Predictions

- IMRH's powerplant: Will be built around a fresh engine. We will probably be using Anteo as the blueprint. We're talking 3350 shp / 2500 kW for the configuration for each engine.

- Payload for Sonam Point: Given the engine above, we could easily get a cool 2000 kgs, made up of 300 kgs of crew, 700 kgs of fuel, and 1000 kgs of payload (rough calculations)

- Indian Navy version: Plenty of juice left for an AEW radar. We're talking 20 kW at an altitude between 10-15K feet. That's some serious high-altitude surveillance and detection capabilities right there. This could seriously be our own KA-31 replacement of the future.

AW&ST reports that the baseline for this new IMRH turboshaft engine will likely be the RTM 322, the engine that powers the NH90. It is an engine designed for 10 to 15 ton helicopters. IMRH variants will fall right into that category, including the DBMRH which is likely to be heavier due to additional crashworthiness requirements and heavier mission avionics equipment.

RTM 322 - NH90 engine

[Cybaru]

Taking a gamble here, but I'm putting my money on the Anteo... NH90's is smaller than IMRH. Sits comfortably in the 9-10 ton range, so two engines are just about right. The 9-15 tons they advertise is for NH90 to the AW101, AW101 has three rtm322 engines. I'm guessing they're sizing it up as a triple-engine setup when they quote the 15 tons side of the range.

We need about 20-22% more power than the mi17 engines to get to sonam pt. This means a whole new class as there is nothing in Safran's stables as is. That is why the agreement and workshare to develop this.

DBMRH is lighter than IMRH due to constraints on size and all on the ship. Reports put it at 12.5 tons vs 13 tons for IMRH.

[Cybaru]

If we really wanted to go down the 9-ton route, 3 * Ardiden 1U ( the one that powers LUH) puts us in the 9K category easily. Developing a new engine would have been a waste. Maximizing the existing powerplant would make a whole lot more sense. The biggest requirement is replacing Mi17 and making a product that has more life than mi17 does at the moment. I think they are even trying to keep the rotor size the same as that of Mi17 for IMRH.

[nachiket]

Trying to build a helicopter that can comfortably replace the Mi-17 while also having a version that can do the job of an SH-60 seems like a dicey proposition. All major ASW helos in the world are in the 9-11 tonne range and none of them even without their ASW equipment can do the job of an Mi-17. The only exception is the AW101 and that thing needs three RTM-322's. Also bear in mind that the IN did not consider it for the Sea King replacement. The competition was between the NH90 and SH-60 which are smaller, lighter and better suited for the mission.

[nachiket]

- Payload for Sonam Point: Given the engine above, we could easily get a cool 2000 kgs, made up of 300 kgs of crew, 700 kgs of fuel, and 1000 kgs of payload (rough calculations)

For heaven's sake why do you want this thing to fly to Sonam point? Has such a requirement been specified by the IAF/IA?

[hnair]

nachiket-saar, BrahmosNG is onlee 1500 kg…. Just leaving that out here

[Pratyush]

- Payload for Sonam Point: Given the engine above, we could easily get a cool 2000 kgs, made up of 300 kgs of crew, 700 kgs of fuel, and 1000 kgs of payload (rough calculations)

For heaven's sake why do you want this thing to fly to Sonam point? Has such a requirement been specified by the IAF/IA?

Guys,

Please don't specify fantasy performance characteristics for the machine. The forces might just use those to prevent induction after the development and user trials are over.

[Manish_P]

nachiket-saar, BrahmosNG is onlee 1500 kg…. Just leaving that out here

[Cybaru]

- Payload for Sonam Point: Given the engine above, we could easily get a cool 2000 kgs, made up of 300 kgs of crew, 700 kgs of fuel, and 1000 kgs of payload (rough calculations)

For heaven's sake why do you want this thing to fly to Sonam point? Has such a requirement been specified by the IAF/IA?

The info boards and presentation at aero india always specify service ceiling as 6.5 kms or 22k ft…

[Kersi]

- Payload for Sonam Point: Given the engine above, we could easily get a cool 2000 kgs, made up of 300 kgs of crew, 700 kgs of fuel, and 1000 kgs of payload (rough calculations)

For heaven's sake why do you want this thing to fly to Sonam point? Has such a requirement been specified by the IAF/IA?

Hey. What is this Sonam Point ?

[Manish_P]

For heaven's sake why do you want this thing to fly to Sonam point? Has such a requirement been specified by the IAF/IA?

Hey. What is this Sonam Point ?

Hope the site is ok on this forum - http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... f-siachen/

[Cybaru]

For heaven's sake why do you want this thing to fly to Sonam point? Has such a requirement been specified by the IAF/IA?

Hey. What is this Sonam Point ?

It’s just places to visit in a hill station, like lovers point, suicide point, bandar point etc…

[Paul]

Sonam Post name: How it came about

[Kersi]

Hey. What is this Sonam Point ?

Hope the site is ok on this forum - http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... f-siachen/

THANKS
Excellent article

[Kersi]

Sonam Post name: How it came about

THANKS

[Rakesh]

"Safran-HAL Helicopter Engines: Co-development Pushes Envelope Further Than ToT"

[Kersi]

It’s just places to visit in a hill station, like lovers point, suicide point, bandar point etc…

Great.

Let us have a BR Meet at Sonam Point !!!!!

[Cybaru]

"Safran-HAL Helicopter Engines: Co-development Pushes Envelope Further Than ToT"

Good interview.. But the movement is too slow on our side. We are taking for ever to start working on this.

[Rakesh]

HAL-Safran Chopper joint venture to be in place within 3 months
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 811959.cms
17 August 2023

[Rakesh]

Ramping up capacity, prepared to execute big orders: HAL chief
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 82823.html
24 Oct 2023, By Rahul Singh

^^^^
https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1716685 ... 99935?s=20 ---> Key points:

- Safran HAL JV for IMRH engines soon, production in 4 years. IMRH by 2031.
- Mk-1A delivery 24/year by 2025-26
- Mk-1A near to CEMILAC clearance
- LCH ~ 25/year for 156 units
- GE F414 deal in an year (fingers crossed)
- 84 Su-30 MKI Uttam + upgrade will not involve any foreign OEM

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1716 ... 33147?s=20 ---> IMRH engine joint venture will become operational next month and production of engines is expected to begin in four years. Safran and HAL will have a 50:50 work-share. IMRH could go into production with the new engine by 2031. Around 400 IMRH will be produced.

[hgupta]

IA needs at least 1200 IMRHs to develop rapid movement capabilities.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1718168 ... 26900?s=20 ---> CB Ananthakrishnan, CMD, HAL: Safran/HAL joint venture to become operational in Nov 2023 at the new Tumakuru facility (for IMRH/DBMRH engines). We can manufacture up to 90 helicopters in Tumakuru every year; a mix of LCH, LUH and IMRH. The IMRH could go into production with the new engine by 2031.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1719 ... 87427?s=20 ---> HAL releases RFI on Airframe Design and Analysis for IMRH.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/strategicfront/status/172 ... 09670?s=20 ---> HAL incorporated a new joint venture company with Safran Helicopter Engines by name "SAFHAL Helicopter Engines Pvt Ltd".

The new company will design, develop and produce engine for the IMRH/DBMRH programs.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1737380 ... 94802?s=20 ---> Final part of our interview with Admiral R Hari Kumar, CNS, Indian Navy.

Deck Based Multi-Role Helicopter: The DBMRH for the Indian Navy is part of joint case being progressed by IAF as the lead service. It would be designed/developed by HAL. HAL plus all other stakeholders are being engaged to present the case for consideration of MoD, seeking approval to initiate design & development i.a.w provisions of Chapter IV DAP 2020. Design & development of IAF and IN variants would be undertaken concurrently by HAL as per the requirements projected by the Services.

[Rakesh]

Mi-17s to be replaced with IMRH.

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1737728 ... 06555?s=20 ---> Good to see that there's no mention for Ka-226 as a replacement of IAF's Chetak/Cheetah fleet. All bets should be on LUH. And IMRH for Mi-17.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1777002006525382840 ---> Looks like GoI has decided to go AMCA route for IMRH. After multiple failed attempts to create a special purpose vehicle for IMRH program. HAL may soon get a nod to go solo.

[hgupta]

Where are the fittings for external weapons such as a machine gun pod and mounted gunner machine and fins for holding rockets and etc? Flares and anti missile warning systems?

[Rakesh]

Where are the fittings for external weapons such as a machine gun pod and mounted gunner machine and fins for holding rockets and etc? Flares and anti missile warning systems?

The above is a representational picture of the helicopter in the VVIP scheme and with the HAL logo. If memory serves me right, this was the first picture that was shown on the IMRH. Additional pictures have displayed Army and Air Force versions with the fitment you have indicated above.

The author of the tweet, used this picture as a placeholder in his tweet. That's all.

[Cybaru]

Hopefully they are working on AEW version from day one! Those KA-31s will retire in a decade. We need new assets for shipborne AEW.

NAVY needs to send requirements to HAL and start working on a prototype. They could use Mi17 for all their radar testing. They do not need it to be shipborne at the moment.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1791488301435854875 ---> The board has sanctioned Rs 4,000 crore for R&D activities of IMRH Program and Rs 2,000 crore for Utility Helicopter Maritime (UHM) for the Indian Navy from the internal funds of HAL. The R&D expenditure of HAL is around 78%. HAL is also approaching Global Certification Agencies for better export: HAL.

[Rakesh]

The turboshaft of the IMRH will be a JV between Safran and HAL.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1791493808301191333 ---> In the case of IMRH, the IPR remains in the country. For the export of GE-414 from HAL will require case-to-case permission from GE.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1812705838706102590 ---> 𝐇𝐢𝐧𝐝𝐮𝐬𝐭𝐚𝐧 𝐀𝐞𝐫𝐨𝐧𝐚𝐮𝐭𝐢𝐜𝐬 𝐋𝐢𝐦𝐢𝐭𝐞𝐝 (𝐇𝐀𝐋) to use 𝐀𝐍𝐄𝐓𝐎–𝟏𝐇 𝐄𝐧𝐠𝐢𝐧𝐞 for 𝐈𝐧𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐚𝐥 𝐃𝐞𝐯𝐞𝐥𝐨𝐩𝐦𝐞𝐧𝐭,𝐓𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐨𝐧 𝐈𝐌𝐑𝐇 & 𝐃𝐁𝐌𝐑𝐇 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐓𝐞𝐜𝐡𝐧𝐢𝐜𝐚𝐥 𝐒𝐮𝐩𝐩𝐨𝐫𝐭 𝐝𝐮𝐫𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐢𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐠𝐫𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 𝐚𝐧𝐝 𝐅𝐥𝐢𝐠𝐡𝐭 𝐓𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠. Total 12 numbers of 𝐀𝐍𝐄𝐓𝐎–𝟏𝐇 𝐄𝐧𝐠𝐢𝐧𝐞 will be acquired by 𝐑𝐖𝐑𝐃𝐂, the delivery date indicated is from 𝐓𝟎 (𝐂𝐨𝐧𝐭𝐫𝐚𝐜𝐭 𝐅𝐢𝐧𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐳𝐚𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧) + 𝟐𝟒 𝐌𝐨𝐧𝐭𝐡𝐬.

https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1812722928779157996 ---> An upgraded design of this engine will be manufactured by HAL-Safran JV in India for IMRH and DBMRH. Could see a run of more than 2,000 engines over lifetime of the IMRH program. Design IP rights to stay with HAL. Thanks @alpha_defense

[Rakesh]

Exclusive: ANETO–1H Engine for IMRH and DBMRH
https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... and-dbmrh/
15 July 2024

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/HALHQBLR/status/1829443101359771934 ---> HAL and SAFHAL Helicopter Engines Pvt Ltd have signed an airframer contract, to commence joint design, development, manufacture, supply and support of a new generation high power engine ‘Aravalli’ for 13-ton Medium Lift class, IMRH and DBMRH being designed & developed by HAL.

https://x.com/HALHQBLR/status/1829443105050820896 ---> The collaboration will not only ensure the operational capabilities of the IMRH and DBMRH platforms but also contribute to the broader goal of indigenous development of critical defence technologies strengthening Aatmanirbharta in engine technologies.

https://x.com/livefist/status/1829444018243002398 ---> HAL announces agreement with HAL-@SAFRAN JV (SAFHAL) to develop & produce 'Aravalli' helicopter engine for its in-development Indian Multi-Role Helicopter (IMRH) and the naval Deck-Based Multi-Role Helicopter (DBMRH).

[Rakesh]

My response (last two tweets at the bottom) to the news above....

https://x.com/SpaceManav1/status/1829455838165016758 ---> Naming them makes it easy to claim it as indigenous.

https://x.com/kartike72187940/status/18 ... 2611139904 ---> Another brahmos, russian missile , indian seeker and Indian paint. SAF-HAL safran engines, Indian paint.

https://x.com/RakeshKoshy/status/1829594951988191580 ---> For all the (valid) rona-dhona replies that are occurring in this tweet, please also enlighten us as to how many times Shakti turboshafts have faced delays...as in the case of the F404-IN20 turbofans for the Tejas Mk1A?

https://x.com/RakeshKoshy/status/1829596270630953055 ---> The HAL Shakti is the licensed produced version of the Ardiden 1H1, which is used aboard the HAL Dhruv. Go here from more info: https://www.safran-group.com/products-s ... helicopter

[bala]

The Helo section of HAL is much more that Naming and Paint. Most of the engine is made by HAL, maybe some critical section from Safran is the import content. The french are less stringent about tech sharing. It is upto GTRE and others like DMRL to create the critical components. This is where an insightful mantriji can make a difference like Monohar Parrikar did with Tejas and Artillery programs. The Indian side should really put their heads together with proper funding and create Indian engines for Helos, Aircrafts and Ships. There is enough talent within India and with sufficient nudge by leadership and babus things are feasible.