Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

[Rakesh]

Excellent news. Page 1 has been updated.

[basant]

Addition of NP5 aircraft to LCA Navy prototype fleet will help to accelerate flight testing activities which will provide designers vital inputs towards design and development of the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), the prestigious futuristic carrier aircraft programme of the country.LCA Navy can also serve as an effective training platform for Indian Navy pilots for operations from the aircraft carriers. The new prototype NP5 will soon undertake field and carrier operations from both INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant, ADA said, adding it will incorporate all improvements identified during exploitation of NP1 and NP2 is a production ready aircraft. It will also incorporate the production standard airframe and rainwater compliance, maintainability improvements as well as futuristic system advancement.

Source: Maiden flight of LCA Navy Trainer Prototype aircraft successfully conducted

[Rakesh]

Thank you for posting this link Basant. I needed the names of the pilots who took NP-5 on her first test flight. I will update Page 1 now.

[basant]

Always a pleasure, Admiral.

[srin]

What a beauty ! NLCA is the prettiest variant of Tejas ...

[Bala Vignesh]

The new prototype NP5 will soon undertake field and carrier operations from both INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant, ADA said, adding it will incorporate all improvements identified during exploitation of NP1 and NP2 is a production ready aircraft. It will also incorporate the production standard airframe and rainwater compliance, maintainability improvements as well as futuristic system advancement.

Source: Maiden flight of LCA Navy Trainer Prototype aircraft successfully conducted

Does that mean the fuel system issues that Mao sir had indicated exists in NP1 and NP2 have been addressed?

[Barath]

Excellent news. Page 1 has been updated.

Could you add S1 EP48 of blueskies podcast to page 1 please ? (just before the DDR article). This is Cmdr Maolankar on the NLCA

Either transcript from below or podcast, whatever you prefer

https://blueskiespodcast.com/transcripts

https://youtu.be/Juri9dThwwA

[Rakesh]

Could you add S1 EP48 of blueskies podcast to page 1 please ? (just before the DDR article). This is Cmdr Maolankar on the NLCA

Either transcript from below or podcast, whatever you prefer

The youtube video is already there in the first post of this thread.

Go to the Videos sub-heading and you will see it.

[Barath]

Ah, thanks. My mistake

[Cyrano]

Even the Rafale M doesnt have a trainer version. When this bird lands and takes off from Vikrant, that will be another memorable day. Well done ADA, HAL, ASTE and IN !

[bala]

Witness a monumental moment in India's naval history as the LCA Navy conquers the challenging task of landing and taking off from the INS Vikrant.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/hvtiaf/status/1717480371594371525?s=20 ---> Slam. Look at the pilots. Look at the squeezed nose tire. Look at the compressed nose oleo. Most fighters never experience this. LCA Navy LIFT.



https://x.com/hvtiaf/status/1717480790844403868?s=20 ---> Main wheel tire.

[Nikhil_Naya]

https://x.com/hvtiaf/status/1717480371594371525?s=20 ---> Slam. Look at the pilots. Look at the squeezed nose tire. Look at the compressed nose oleo. Most fighters never experience this. LCA Navy LIFT.

''

Highlighted the key word here - LIFT - will this be the Navy Fighter trainer and all the work will fructify? Lesser wear on the Mig29K and Future Rafales...
Also, a capable point defense aircraft that can still be carried on board the AC.
Shall we see a future where the VikAD becomes a 'standby/trainer AC' with 2 squadrons of LCA Navy LIFT and the Vikrant and Vik2 become the 'active' Carriers?
So Navy Airmen graduate from the Hawk - NAVY LIFT - Mig29K/ Rafale.
Not sure of the payload of the Navy LIFT - I shall call it "Badal" (Shivaji Maharaj's Horse).
If Badal can carry a couple of Astra missiles with an underslung Anti Ship Missile it will be a formidable aircraft to back up the Raf/M29K...

[Rakesh]

@Nikhil_Naya: Future naval pilots will undergo a training schedule based on something like this...

HTT-40 (BTA) ---> HJT-36 (IJT) ---> BAe Hawk Mk 132 (AJT) ---> Naval Tejas (for aircraft carrier training) ---> Rafale M / TEDBF

[Cyrano]

Great pix. Whats a compressed nose "oleo" ? Oleo = oil..what?

[Cyrano]

Ah could be nose wheel shock absorber, hyrdaulic = oleo as per jargon I guess...

Of all LCA models, I think this is the one that has most export potential to NATO countries operating carriers.

[AkshaySG]

Of all LCA models, I think this is the one that has most export potential to NATO countries operating carriers.

What country?

US, France have their own fighters and pretty much everyone else in NATO with aircraft carriers is using or plans to use F-35B since their carriers are STOVL/VTOL

The only countries operating STOBAR carriers besides us is Russia and China.

As far as training goes then France etc have already decided that simulator training is enough until pilots are ready to land by themselves and the US provides training to all who use F-35.

[Rakesh]

Prior to Rafale M simulator training in France, the French Navy sends her rookie pilots to train with the US Navy on the T-45 Goshawk. Just to get a real world feel of taking off and landing from an aircraft carrier. It makes perfect sense for the French Navy, as the catapult system on the Charles De Gaulle is the same system found on the Nimitz Class aircraft carrier. The company that made the catapult system for the Nimitz Class, supplied the same system to the French Navy. Even the French Navy's new generation aircraft carrier (i.e. PANG) will use the same EMALS system found on the Gerald R Ford Class aircraft carrier.

These catapult systems are also why Northrop Grumman's E-2C/D AEW aircraft is so prominently featured on French aircraft carriers. When you operate the same system, platforms are fully interoperable. Rafale Ms of the French Navy can operate with ease from US aircraft carriers and one airframe even did an entire engine change on the USS George HW Bush. Don't be surprised to see future Malabar exercises featuring Rafale Ms of the Indian Navy taking off from US aircraft carriers. Same scenario with future Varuna exercises with the French Navy.

The Naval Tejas has a strong future, thanks to the selection of the Rafale M by the Indian Naval Air Arm. Similar setup like the French Navy, but the Indian Navy's training regimen will be "near" entirely on swadeshi platforms:

HTT-40 (BTA) ---> HJT-36 (IJT) ---> BAe Hawk Mk 132 (AJT) ---> Naval Tejas (for aircraft carrier training) ---> Rafale M / TEDBF

The Indian Navy will flog these Naval Tejas like no tomorrow, which is valuable data/experience for TEDBF.

[Roop]

Don't be surprised to see future Malabar exercises featuring Rafale Ms of the Indian Navy taking off from US aircraft carriers. ... Same scenario with future Varuna exercises with the French Navy.

You know, I was thinking exactly the same thing myself. Complete speculation on my part, of course, but I'm glad someone else is thinking creatively along the same lines.

On a separate but related topic (i.e. more speculation from me), I wonder if TEDBF will be catapult-launchable from a French / American aircraft-carrier? Probably not, I'm guessing, because the nose landing gear is not designed for the stress of a catapult launch.

[Pratyush]

Snip.....

On a separate but related topic (i.e. more speculation from me), I wonder if TEDBF will be catapult-launchable from a French / American aircraft-carrier? Probably not, I'm guessing, because the nose landing gear is not designed for the stress of a catapult launch.

If the TEDBF or the NLCA are actually put in service. Then being developed in India. We will have the freedom to build a subsequent Mk 2 of both the aircraft capable of catapult operations.

[Rakesh]

I believe I posted this picture before, but in case...

https://x.com/officialTatya_1/status/17 ... 54906?s=20 ---> Naval LCA Tejas.

[hgupta]

How many naval LCAs do we have? 2? or more?

[Rakesh]

How many naval LCAs do we have? 2? or more?

Saar, from Page 1 of this thread...

Acronyms:
• NP ---> Naval Prototype
• KHN-T ---> Two Seat Naval Trainer
• KHN ---> Single Seat Naval Fighter

First Flights of Naval Tejas Mk1 Prototypes

Construction Number ... Serial Number ... Aircraft First Flight ... Pilot(s)
• NP-1 ... KHN-T-3001 ... 27-Apr-12 ... Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (IN) and Wing Commander Malteesh Prabhu (IAF)
• NP-2 ... KHN-3002 ... 07-Feb-15 ... Captain Shivnath Dahiya (IN)
• NP-5 ... KHN-T-3005 ... 18-Aug-23 ... Captain Amit Kawade (IN) with Wing Commander Siddarth Singh (Retd)

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1730214472181293398?s=20 ---> Just a coincidence that the DAC nod for additional Tejas Mk1A came on a day when I was going through an yet-to-be-published, voluminous book by a very senior military official. It is true that not many in India understood the pains & pleasures of developing -- for the first time -- a platform that could undertake carrier ops. The challenges were many & one by one the team overcame them, inching closer to their dream of shaping a ship-borne aircraft. Whatever may be the shortcomings it has, like many who expressed in the past, I too still strongly feel a few numbers of naval LCAs could have been ordered. It would have only boosted the Aatmanirbharta & not dented it. Can it be still done? Or is it too late?

[JTull]

Mao Sir is on record that LCA-Navy isn't anywhere near matured for production. Unlike Tejas FOC, Naval version has far too many jugaads. The effort needed to get it production ready is better spent on NP-5 and other critical paths for TEDBF.

[AkshaySG]

Mao Sir is on record that LCA-Navy isn't anywhere near matured for production. Unlike Tejas FOC, Naval version has far too many jugaads. The effort needed to get it production ready is better spent on NP-5 and other critical paths for TEDBF.

Its a bit of chicken and egg tho.. There isn't any budget to be spent fixing those "jugaads" and as result HAL can't allocate any real resources and time to NLCA besides what the NP series requires"

If there was an order of even 8 NLCAs as a naval trainer/shore based test bed for upcoming TEDBF technologies /deployment at A & N etc then that money can be spent maturing NLCA.

That's what we have seen in the past with LCA/LCH etc

But I guess IN feels they don't have the budget to support that endeavor.

[Pratyush]

Purely from a technical stand point. I don't really understand the argument about the NLCA being unfit for carrier operations.

1) how difficult would it be integrate the mission suit of the Mk1 A into the NLCA airframe?

2) how much cost and effort would it take to harden the mission suite for the rigours of carrier operations?

This should not take more than 24 months and 2000 crores at the upper end of the scale.

The further advantage of this effort would be to de risk the TEDBF program.

[hgupta]

Purely from a technical stand point. I don't really understand the argument about the NLCA being unfit for carrier operations.

1) how difficult would it be integrate the mission suit of the Mk1 A into the NLCA airframe?

2) how much cost and effort would it take to harden the mission suite for the rigours of carrier operations?

This should not take more than 24 months and 2000 crores at the upper end of the scale.

The further advantage of this effort would be to de risk the TEDBF program.

Tejas with its single engine simply do not have enough thrust to take off from a ski ramp with all that mission suites and weapons. It is only fit for training roles because it can only lift off with minimal weapons and circle around close by and return to land. The only utility from that is training how to take off and land on aircraft carriers and IN does not have a huge cadre of pilots to train like the USN. Its fighter inventory is only at 45 fighters right now. That is why IN do not need more than 8 N-LCAs for training purposes.

If the IN had a catapult capable carrier, the story would be different and we would have seen more N-LCAs.

[Cybaru]

It can be a great training and Carrier defense craft. 12-18 would do well for IN. Much more high availability than the low 15-20% for M29Ks (from wiki)

[Rakesh]

Lovely Patches!

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1762 ... 19999?s=20 --->

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1834514223231041937 ---> #PaperToFlight l New book on LCA Navy ready for first flight

A pipping hot book that captures the design story of India's carrier-borne fighter LCA Navy is all set to fly out from the hangars of ADA Bengaluru on 19 Oct 2024. The book is authored by Commodore C D Balaji (Retd), ex-ADA Director.

A bit on the book...

'Paper to Flight’ charts the remarkable journey of India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), from its inception on paper to its successful flight operations. Beginning with a concise introduction to the Air Force variant, #LCA #Tejas, the narrative dives into the origins, design, and development of the Naval Version (LCA Navy) tracing the milestones from the initial Government Approval (Paper) through to the rigorous stages of flight testing (Flight). The book offers a vivid portrayal of the teams’ collective perseverance and innovation, highlighting their success in overcoming numerous obstacles to develop India's first indigenously produced ship-borne and air-based combat aircraft. The book highlights the strategic significance of both versions, demonstrating how the development of indigenous aircraft is vital for national defence and technological self-reliance. Offering valuable insights for future indigenisation efforts, the book serves as both an engaging narrative and a reference for the development of upcoming fighter aircraft programs. It is being published by Pentagon Press, pioneers in military-related books. The icing on the cake is a priceless foreword by ex-CNS Admiral Arun Prakash (retd).

[Rakesh]

DRDO proposal gets approval from ex-CNS, Indian Navy.

https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1838210064324415584 ---> This may not be a bad idea. A carrier-borne Tejas flight/squadron could undertake fleet air-defence role, while generating valuable data for TEDBF. But with HAL struggling to meet IAF orders, how long will it take?

DRDO Proposes 8-10 Naval LCA MkI for Indian Navy to Gather Valuable Data for Future TEDBF Program
https://defence.in/threads/drdo-propose ... ram.10129/
23 Sept 2024

[Kartik]

The book by Cmde Balaji is surely going to be a must buy for enthusiasts of Indian aviation. Such books are rare and afar and offer the kinds of glimpses into Indian fighter development that tell us all about the challenges that the teams face.

[Prem Kumar]

DRDO proposal gets approval from ex-CNS, Indian Navy.

https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1838210064324415584 ---> This may not be a bad idea. A carrier-borne Tejas flight/squadron could undertake fleet air-defence role, while generating valuable data for TEDBF. But with HAL struggling to meet IAF orders, how long will it take?

DRDO Proposes 8-10 Naval LCA MkI for Indian Navy to Gather Valuable Data for Future TEDBF Program
https://defence.in/threads/drdo-propose ... ram.10129/
23 Sept 2024

Another example: testing the NASM serries of missiles, which will be mated with the avionics/Uttam of Tejas & will be accelerate their certification on TEDBF.

Anything that will go into TEDBF in terms of network centricity, SDRs, data links, radars, coordination with AEW assets, sonobuoys, weapons integration - they can all be certified on Naval Tejas. Porting them to TEDBF will be a breeze.

At least with SOPs, the IN can get those fine-tuned via Rafale-Ms & Mig-29Ks. But the above leg-up is something they will get only via a Naval Tejas.

[BhairavP]

But the good Admiral Prakash is already casting doubt on any further NLCA procurement - surely purchasing a few has value as elucidated above?

[Brad Goodman]

Navy needs following capabilities as it prepares for future

Training & Skills
1) Train its pilots using a twin seater airplane with avionics customized for sea operations
2) Have dedicated platforms which the pilots can use to hone skills put hours in air
3) Have enough fighters so that they can realistically play scenarios and finetune strategies

Tejas can check all these boxes, You have a much cheaper plane than Rafale, Also Rafale has no twin seater plane so tough to put new pilots into it and crashing into flight deck, You have ageing MIG29 fleet with low availibility and expensive Rafales who you want to optimize its flight hours, You are with low numbers for giving pilots the flying hours they absolutely deserve...

Fleet Strength
1) Have enough planes in air to account for fleet availibility
2) Platforms where they can easily integrate weapons/ electronics/ software without being at mercy of foreign OEM
3) Platforms that can be upgraded constantly
4) Use platforms for what they are capable , Use tejas for point defence or as growler think out of box what I can do not what I cannot

Again with dwindling MIGs and expensive Rafales you need birds with availibility, Migs are too old to upgrade realistically & Rafale are too complicated to customize for desi weapons so you need to buy and upkeep meteors and other weapons. Making them compatiable with network centric capabilities as you get into manned unmanned teaming wont be easy for foreign platforms...

Strategies
1) Not every navy plane should be bought with assumption that it will fly off the deck
2) There are two static aircraft carriers for IN, Lakshadweep & Andaman, They can have bigger runways
3) Navy had a huge coast line to protect and carriers will not be everywhere, Navy needs its dedicated bases close to borders like Jamnagar Cochin Vishakhapattanam ...
4) How you can optimize response times to crisis with dedicated fighters that are strategically placed
5) How you can use the home grown cheetah and figure what it does good and what it can do better for continious improvement.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/guardingindia/status/1887189246068597039 ---> The Indian Navy has successfully tested and accepted four of fourteen newly identified technologies for the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) program, utilizing LCA Tejas naval prototypes.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/IndiannavyMedia/status/18 ... 2269121983 ---> From Concept to Conquest! Experience the remarkable journey of the LCA (Navy) – from concept to historical landing onboard the indigenous aircraft carrier; a true testament to Aatmanirbhar Bharat and Aatmanirbhar Navy! Quest for future indigenous deck-based fighter continues!

[AkshaySG]

Navy needs following capabilities as it prepares for future

Makes perfect sense. And anything that makes perfect sense is discarded from services/MOD procurement plan

[srai]

Not combat capable???

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1888161 ... 06854?mx=2 --->