Project 75I - It Begins

[Pratyush]

Ton for ton of displacement, the Indian SSK is going to be more expensive than the verginia class submarines of the USN. So the argument of costs is not really justified.

The problem is the brass. That is making a complete dog's breakfast of our procurement programs. Consequently our war fighting ability.

In a sane military. The force would have taken 6 Kalvari class as is. Then they would have ordered 6 more with indigenous improvements. Followed by a 100% indigenous submarine by now.

But the brass has no ability to think in these terms.

The same situation applies in terms of aircraft carriers.

[Rakesh]

German Government Throws Weight Behind Indian Navy’s Submarine Deal
https://bharatshakti.in/german-governme ... rine-deal/
10 April 2024

[Pratyush]

German Government Throws Weight Behind Indian Navy’s Submarine Deal
https://bharatshakti.in/german-governme ... rine-deal/
10 April 2024

Now I am well and truly frightened of this program.

We are going to get boats that will not be able to engage any thing.

[Prem Kumar]

Ton for ton of displacement, the Indian SSK is going to be more expensive than the verginia class submarines of the USN. So the argument of costs is not really justified.

The problem is the brass. That is making a complete dog's breakfast of our procurement programs. Consequently our war fighting ability.

In a sane military. The force would have taken 6 Kalvari class as is. Then they would have ordered 6 more with indigenous improvements. Followed by a 100% indigenous submarine by now.

But the brass has no ability to think in these terms.

The same situation applies in terms of aircraft carriers.

Well said Pratyush! The rot, in this case, is squarely with the IN Leadership.

While the IN has, no doubt, been the most Atmanirbhar-friendly of all forces, they have huge blindspots - the submarine program is one of them.

And over the years, they have also started to demonstrate some of the undesirable characteristics (& biases) of the other Arms. And why not? If such behavior goes unpunished & even rewarded, the IN will imbibe the lesson that its ok to take the easy way out, its ok to dip into the gravy train & its ok to have an attitude of "since no one else cares for Atmanirbhar, why should we?"

This is why examples must be made of senior people - publicly. So that others watching will learn the right lessons

[Rakesh]

Stop giving out Scorpene plaques and build more Scorpenes!!!

https://x.com/navalgroup/status/1783397739767706009 ---> We are honoured to welcome General Anil Chauhan, CDS_India (@HQ_IDS_India) and Indian dignitaries at our headquarters in Paris. It was an opportunity to exchange on our long-standing cooperation with the Indian Defence industry in the spirit of Aatmanirbhar Bharat to offer our latest generation of technologies to the Indian Navy.

[R Charan]

P-75I Delays Leave India Vulnerable as Pakistan's Hangor Class Grows

https://defence.in/threads/p-75i-delays ... rows.6100/

[Pratyush]

^^^^

Don't worry.

Its all part of super intellectual plan the brass has come up with.

The capabilities desired by the brass were not available with any in service design in 2014. The South Koreans have developed a new design that has a VLS. Are you not able to see that the Indian program was designed to take SSK tech to the next level. So much so, that the South Koreans are not even in the running right now.

The other boat was one of the Amur Family with VLS. Yet that boat is also not in the running. The DRDO AIP is such a dead end that we know that it cannot be scaled up. Or even further developed to power a different JV project.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1785971031578128695 ---> This is why a AIP based submarine is important. A detailed article on website by 5 p.m.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1785971031578128695 ---> This is why a AIP based submarine is important. A detailed article on website by 5 p.m.

Why Indian Navy needs “AIP based Submarine”
https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... ine/?amp=1
02 May 2024

[Adrija]

^^^ still does not answer why we cannot standardize around nuclear SSNs and SSBNs

[Rakesh]

^^^ still does not answer why we cannot standardize around nuclear SSNs and SSBNs

An all SSN fleet is very expensive. It is the most ideal situation, but not enough funds.

Secondly, our SSN program (Project 75 Alpha) is still on the drawing boards. It will be another decade - at minimum - before the first one takes to the water. Once that program gets underway, then the Govt of that time can look at an all SSN fleet. Till that time, AIP powered SSKs will be required.

The SSBN will remain a nuclear powered fleet, as the case is now.

[Rakesh]

Indian Navy begins trials in Rs 60,000 crore tender for 6 advanced submarines
https://aninews.in/news/world/asia/indi ... 503202534/
03 May 2024

[wig]

India's submarine project battles hurdle amid rising China, Pakistan pressures
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/in ... pressures/
20 May 2024

excerpts

P75(I) has strategic implications, especially considering China's growing submarine presence in the Indian Ocean Region and Pakistan's accelerated acquisition of these warships. The urgency for India to modernise its submarine fleet is evident as its current fleet is ageing and depleting. The Indian Navy's fleet of attack submarinesâ all diesel-powered has come down from 21 in the 1980s to just 16 at present. Only eight are battle-ready at any given time, as half of the fleet undergoes mid-life upgrades and is 30 years old. P75(I)'s success will enhance the India Navy's underwater capabilities and support the country's strategic defence objectives against regional threats.

the future

Naval experts say that at a time China has been frequently deploying its conventional and nuclear submarines in the Indian Ocean Region under the pretext of anti-piracy missions, the Indian Navy's underwater capabilities need to be ramped up urgently. While China, with over 65 submarines, is the biggest threat, even the smaller navy of Pakistan appears to be racing ahead of India with faster acquisitions. Last month, China launched the first of eight Hangor-class submarines for Pakistan's navy at a Wuhan shipyard. The remaining four submarines will be built at Pakistan's Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works Ltd under a transfer-of-technology agreement. The Pakistan Navy plans to add the submarines to its fleet by 2028.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Mark99xm/status/1793151527173099539 ---> China is preparing for a war and meanwhile India has put a submarine acquisition plan on hold to give some foreign company time to develop a tech (that has already been developed in India). Om Shanti.

https://x.com/EkNashwar/status/1792896401254257035 ---> P-75I @indiannavy

[Rakesh]

@Rakesh - I've exactly same thoughts on the P-75I Navantia sub entry.

Our Service Chiefs do give amazing speeches though. See below...

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1793158676020425095 ---> Anytime, Anywhere, Anyhow protect national maritime interests: The new motto of the Indian Navy given by Admiral Dinesh Tripathi.

What a load of horseshit!

The key buzzword in the Anytime, Anywhere, Anyhow mantra is ANYHOW. If YOs and Sailors have to die (due to procurement delays) so be it, but protect the nation at all costs. Who bears responsibility (at Naval HQ or in the GOI) for sending young men and women to their deaths? Not a single Admiral or a Minister will stand before a court. Not a single one. Award a bravery medal to the family, sing National Anthem and then move on.

After the Sindhurakshak explosion on 14 Aug 2013, one YO submariner remarked, "Sir, we sit daily on a ticking time bomb."

[Rakesh]

Meanwhile....

Latest On Indonesia’s Scorpène And Plan To Acquire Four More Submarines
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ubmarines/
19 May 2024

France Offers New ‘Scorpene Evolved’ Li-Ion Submarine To Indonesia
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... indonesia/
13 Oct 2023

[Rakesh]

When Plan A (Project 75I) does not work for whatever reason, where is the back up plan (more Scorpenes)? Key naval acquisition programs suffer from this myopia i.e. aircraft carriers, submarines, torpedoes. I really hope the contract for three additional Scorpene boats are signed soon after the elections.

Indonesia (and even Philippines) are being courted by Naval Group for Scorpenes with lithium ion batteries and F-21 torpedoes. But our bright Admirals at Naval HQ will wait for the mythical P-75I to come. This tamasha has gone on since 2008-09, when the original RFI was issued for the P-75I program. 16 years since that date and still nothing has happened.

Even the Scorpene boats we have in service now do not have modern torpedoes. Our submarine force is in an abysmal state of affairs.

[uddu]

https://idrw.org/bdl-and-drdo-forge-ahe ... velopment/
Takshak Torpedo is ready to be tested from a ship. Meant for submarines and ships. Got better range than Varunastra.
The said video from Bharat Shakti

[JTull]

idrw isn't a reliable source. Let us avoid quoting it.

[vonkabra]

We don't know which boat the Indian Navy is evaluating in Germany. I doubt it will be the Type 212, as that is classified tech. I am assuming it will be some variant of the Type 214. The rumour mill is that HDW is offering a larger variant of the Type 218SG, of which four have been purchased by Singapore. But it is speculation at this stage.

Pity, I was really hoping for the Type 212CD - the next frontier for stealth is going to be submarines shaped to counter active sonar

[Rakesh]

Pity, I was really hoping for the Type 212CD - the next frontier for stealth is going to be submarines shaped to counter active sonar

Reportedly it is a variant of the Type 214 customized for the Indian Navy. The non-magnetic hull of the Type 212 is classified tech and does not feature on the Type 214 (export variant of the Type 212). But the non-magnetic hull on the Type 212 cannot dive as deep as the hull on the Type 214. Thus the non-magnetic hull is a trade off, but it works for Germany and Italy as their Type 212s operate mainly in the littorals.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1796209348705735130 ---> Field evaluation trials with TKMS is successfully done.

[Rakesh]

India to hold trials in Spain for P-75 India submarine project by June-end
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 617131417/
17 June 2024

[Rakesh]

Most Advanced Submarines for Indian Navy

[SRajesh]

A question to Rakesh:
Is VLS not one of the pre-requisites of the Navy going forwards??
None of the two contenders have VLS
Given that the Spanish Cigar is slightly longer will it accomodate VLS if need be??
Or will the Navy forego for the Import maal??
Or will Thyssen incorporate VLS as in 216

[Rakesh]

The last I heard is that the VLS requirement was dropped in the P-75I contest. If it is back on, it would be news (to me).

The variant of the TKMS boat - that is being offered to India - is a customized Type 216 design (which is a larger Type 214). That variant does have VLS tubes. That tube will have to be able to fit a sub-launched BrahMos cruise missile, which is the logical fitment in the VLS tube. I don't know of any other missile that is being planned. However, the dimensions of a sub-launched BrahMos are not publicly known, so it remains to be seen if such a mating will be successful. The missile has to fit inside the tube and that tube has to fit within the dimensions of the Type 216's hull. That is a tall order, but doable. Similar issue will exist with the S-80 Class boat from Navantia.

The main issue will be time, which the Indian Navy does not have. The better bet would be to commission these P-75I boats without the VLS tubes and then fit them at a later date, like a plug/extension, just like the six Scorpene boats are being fitted out with the DRDO AIP at their refits. This is the better option IMVHO.

P.S. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but the Navantia boat offer is tragic. She is a modified Scorpene. We could have done this ourselves, by partnering with Naval Group. We got goats for brains at the MoD and at Naval HQ. Spain has not built a single Scorpene and is building four modified Scorpene boats and calling them S-80 Class. And the Spanish are cheeky enough to participate in the P-75I program.

My instinct tells me it will be the Type 216 boat from TKMS. The boat crews - of the Indian Navy - that operate her predecessor (the HDW 209 boat) have nothing but praises for her.

[Pratyush]

A question to Rakesh:
Is VLS not one of the pre-requisites of the Navy going forwards??
None of the two contenders have VLS
Given that the Spanish Cigar is slightly longer will it accomodate VLS if need be??
Or will the Navy forego for the Import maal??
Or will Thyssen incorporate VLS as in 216

The VLS is a function of the height of the boat and not the length of the sub.

The Navy has an option to procure one of the Amur class designs and that will give the Navy VLS. The fact that Amur is not a finalist design tells me that VLS is off the table.

I am not aware of the U 216 design so I cannot comment on it.

[Pratyush]

snip...


I don't know of any other missile that is being planned.

Snip....

The DRDO was developing a subsonic AShM with a range of 400 kms for the Scorpene class torpedo tubes. This missile should be capable of being fitted to the new boats as well. But I don't know where it's on the development scale.

[Rakesh]

The Navy has an option to procure one of the Amur class designs and that will give the Navy VLS. The fact that Amur is not a finalist design tells me that VLS is off the table.

There is no such option of the Amur Class design on offer to the Indian Navy in the P-75I contest. The Indian Navy evaluated the Amur design in the past and found her unsatisfactory. No surprise there.

[Rakesh]

The DRDO was developing a subsonic AShM with a range of 400 kms for the Scorpene class torpedo tubes. This missile should be capable of being fitted to the new boats as well. But I don't know where it's on the development scale.

The torpedo tube is not VLS, but a welcoming news if DRDO is working on such a program. SRajesh was inquiring specifically about VLS tubes.

[Rakesh]

P.S. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but the Navantia boat offer is tragic. She is a modified Scorpene. We could have done this ourselves, by partnering with Naval Group. We got goats for brains at the MoD and at Naval HQ. Spain has not built a single Scorpene and is building four modified Scorpene boats and calling them S-80 Class. And the Spanish are cheeky enough to participate in the P-75I program.

I forgot to mention that the S-80 Class boat is on offer to Turkey. And the first (of six) Type 214 boats has just entered service with the Turkish Navy. So Scorpene data was leaked and Turkey (Pakistan's new friend) has access to both designs in the P-75I contest. See below....

https://x.com/Defence_IDA/status/1723713891132387361 ---> Spain's Navantia has allegedly granted a license for the design of its S-80 Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarines to Turkey. Turkey is purportedly abandoning its intentions to acquire additional German U214TN submarines.

https://x.com/Defence_IDA/status/1723714125866602924 ---> The S-80 design is expected to integrate with Turkey's MILDEN program to expedite the process.

https://x.com/TayfunOzberk/status/1723755220268711980 ---> There are some problems about this news. The U214TN submarines are called Reis-class, and the first submarine of the class, TCG Pirireis, will enter service soon. The second one was already launched, and the construction of the following boats are ongoing. The S-80 rumours might be about Turkish Navy's MILDEN (National Submarine) project, but the Turkish defence industry is capable to build ~%80 of a submarine, so, such claims are interesting. There might be an intention about getting support of AIP propulsion system, but this is just an idea, needs confirmation.

https://x.com/Defence_IDA/status/1723950070704349609 ---> Yes it seems that it is actually related to AIP and for the Milden program.

Reis Class submarine ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reis-class_submarine

========================================================

https://x.com/TayfunOzberk/status/1723755220268711980 ---> There are some problems about this news. The U214TN submarines are called Reis-class, and the first submarine of the class, TCG Pirireis, will enter service soon. The second one was already launched, and the construction of the following boats are ongoing. The S-80 rumours might be about Turkish Navy's MILDEN (National Submarine) project, but the Turkish defence industry is capable to build ~%80 of a submarine, so, such claims are interesting. There might be an intention about getting support of AIP propulsion system, but this is just an idea, needs confirmation.

https://x.com/MostInsensitive/status/17 ... 5074578534 ---> Mr. Tayfun, what is in the 20 percent that we cannot produce?

https://x.com/TayfunOzberk/status/1723764166043795948 ---> The main propulsion system and the periscope system are the first things that come to my mind. However, many critical weapons and systems, from domestic sheet metal to section 50 containing torpedo launchers, from electronic warfare systems to command control systems, from sonar suites to data distribution systems, are produced domestically.

https://x.com/UKH90/status/1723767477560062103 ---> I remember, Mr. Tayfun, that last time Aselsan was working on the periscope.

[SRajesh]

^^Then why this delay and usual tamasha of assessment :everyone and everything inlcuding Gori mem and her Grandmother!!!
Is it the single vendor issue??
Crying over scorpene issue is all water under the bridge!!
Like a career Diplomat being EAM why cant we have a Defence person being the RM!!
Should the next order be 6+6 with graudated improvements and local product additions ultimately leading to 6+6 local design.
I were asking for I would be asking for that with a an agreement that unless there is a mjaor global meltdown the agreement would be honoured.
Asking for 24 am I asking for the moon do you think!! given our pond has just got a bit busier and we have a little more policing and controlling to do.

[Pratyush]

There is no such option of the Amur Class design on offer to the Indian Navy in the P-75I contest. The Indian Navy evaluated the Amur design in the past and found her unsatisfactory. No surprise there.

I was going by memory when I referred to the Amur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amur-class_submarine

This is suggesting that the Amur can have 10 VLS. The boat was lacking AIP though.

Even HI Sutton in his encapsulation of choices for P75I has included the Amur with VLS. But this was in 2021

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... i-program/

[Rakesh]

^^Then why this delay and usual tamasha of assessment :everyone and everything inlcuding Gori mem and her Grandmother!!!
Is it the single vendor issue??

That is the issue. The Navy had to encourage (I will use cajole) TKMS to participate in the P-75I contest. In my personal opinion, Navantia is there for eye candy and to avoid the single vendor issue.

Crying over scorpene issue is all water under the bridge!!
Like a career Diplomat being EAM why cant we have a Defence person being the RM!!

Having an ex-defence person can backfire Saar. How many Generals/Admirals/Air Marshals walk the talk on Atmanirbhar Bharat?

We have proven artillery guns, tanks and other armoured vehicles, infantry weapons, DRDO AIP, etc. But yet we still want ATHOS, next gen MBT, Stryker IFV, imported rifles, phoren AIP, etc. All under the blessing of Generals/Admirals/Air Marshals. We love to import. Nothing like that new phoren smell.

The last time a poster used the term "import-pasand" to describe the armed forces ... another poster had a sanctimonious meltdown (because he believed that the term dishonours the men/women in uniform). But that is what this is. Senior military leadership will whine and complain about everything local (ATAGS is overweight, Arjun is overweight, AIP is still under testing phase, etc). But will wait for decades (hold-my-breath-till-I-turn-BLUE) for imported maal, even if it is not up to the RFI spec. So who is really dishonouring the men/women in uniform?

Should the next order be 6+6 with graudated improvements and local product additions ultimately leading to 6+6 local design. I were asking for I would be asking for that with a an agreement that unless there is a mjaor global meltdown the agreement would be honoured.
Asking for 24 am I asking for the moon do you think!! given our pond has just got a bit busier and we have a little more policing and controlling to do.

Project 75I will be for six vessels. The follow-on Project 76 is supposed to be an all indigenious design with a 6+6 build program. Don't hold your breath on that though. We will figure out a way to import that also.

If there is a global meltdown, we are royally screwed Lets hope that does not happen.

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the Indian Missiles thread...

An article on Naval News encapsulating the different long ranges naval missiles. The NASM-MR is a candidate for a submarine torpedo tube launched anti-ship missile. It suggests that it's a Harpoon class weapon. In the P-75I thread, I had suggested that it was a 400 km ranged weapon. But I had confused it with a different missile also under development.

India Focuses On Long Range Naval Missiles Development
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... velopment/
Published on 14th December 2023

Pratyush, an awesome find! Thank you so much for posting this.

I completely forgot about Nirbhay in VLS configuration. My bad!!!!

So both BrahMos and Nirbhay in VLS configuration, possibly on the P-75I boat and on the 'planned' P-76 boat. Will definitely be on the P-75 Alpha boat (the Indian Navy's planned six-build SSN program).

[nachiket]

The Navy has an option to procure one of the Amur class designs and that will give the Navy VLS. The fact that Amur is not a finalist design tells me that VLS is off the table.

There is no such option of the Amur Class design on offer to the Indian Navy in the P-75I contest. The Indian Navy evaluated the Amur design in the past and found her unsatisfactory. No surprise there.

The VLS option on the Amur only existed on a scale model shown once. It is nothing more than a boondoggle. But you could say that about the whole submarine itself. Not a single Amur (even without the VLS) has ever been actually built.

[Rakesh]

The VLS option on the Amur only existed on a scale model shown once. It is nothing more than a boondoggle. But you could say that about the whole submarine itself. Not a single Amur (even without the VLS) has ever been actually built.

Saar, see this. No wonder the Indian Navy wanted nothing to do with this.

https://x.com/Saturnax1/status/1804417824120553488 ---> Sales pitch vs. Reality OR a Saturday morning rant.

Context: Russian United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) is presenting (among others) model of the Amur 1650-class AIP attack submarine, an export variant of the Project 677 Lada/St. Petersburg-class of diesel-electric attack submarines at the International Naval Show FLOT-2024 opened today in Kronshtadt. The unfinished hull section of the single Amur 1650/Project 677E-class submarine remains outside of the Admiralty Shipyards since 2010(!), when the construction was stopped due to lack of possible customers & budget.

History: The Project 677 Lada/St. Petersburg-class, heralded as the Air-Independent Propulsion (AIP) successor of the ageing Project 877 Halibut/Kilo-class diesel-electric attack submarines, suffered heavily during the design & construction phases and the lead boat of the class, Sankt-Petersburg (B-585), is already scheduled for decommissioning - the missing AIP technology being the key factor for this decision. Only two more hulls of the upgraded Project 677M Class are operational today: Velikiye Luki (B-587) & Kronshtadt (B-586). Another two Project 677M Class units are under construction: Vologda & Yaroslavl, but the shipyard reportedly halted all works on both hulls due to missing funds. The third unit was reportedly ordered by the MoD in 2020, but no more info is available today.

Future (?): In a related news from 2016, the Russian news agency RIA Novosti announced that no additional Project 677 Lada/St. Petersburg-class units will be ordered and built, and all engineering resources will be transferred to the upcoming Project 777A Kalina/Improved Lada, a fifth generation of diesel-electric/AIP attack submarines designed by the RUBIN Design Bureau. The original time schedule of this project called for the construction to start in 2020. In 2018 however, a USC representative said that construction has not yet begun due to missing order from the Russian MoD. In 2020, the then head of the USC Aleksey Rakhmanov announced the work on Project 777A is continuing and the project received a partial funding. Since this statement there are no more available updates on the Project 777A status.

So much for the domestic & export Russian AIP submarine development. @mikeplunkettuk

[Rakesh]

P.S. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but the Navantia boat offer is tragic. She is a modified Scorpene. We could have done this ourselves, by partnering with Naval Group. We got goats for brains at the MoD and at Naval HQ. Spain has not built a single Scorpene and is building four modified Scorpene boats and calling them S-80 Class. And the Spanish are cheeky enough to participate in the P-75I program.

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1805078892899680314 ---> Talks advance on procuring additional Kalvari submarines. MDL in detailed discussions for Rs 35,000 crore deal with MoD. New submarines to be larger, stealthier, with more endurance. At least 60% indigenous content and 5,000 jobs to be created.

[nachiket]

"First of the advanced boats to be delivered within six years"

Yeah I call BS on that. This is essentially a new design based on the Scorpene. We'll be lucky if the development is even complete in six years. We needed these boats yesterday. First it was the insistence on VLS which delayed the whole thing and now it will be this.

[SRajesh]

^^^It's Arjun and missile launch capability all over again this VLS
We are like this onleee: Bean counting /head scratching /
We have successfully reversed the proverb; AAAJ KARE SO KAL KAR itna Jaldi Kyah Hain!!!