Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

ritesh wrote: 10 May 2024 08:22 https://www.opindia.com/2024/05/atmanir ... cial-year/

Quoting from the article.
As a result of a gradual implementation of a negative import list or positive indigenisation lists, foreign producers currently supply only 5–10% of the army’s ammunition requirements.

The aim is to stop all ammunition imports by 2025-26
My view is "bandook kahin se bimhi ho goli hamara!:
While weapon can be from anywhere he shell has to be ours.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
There would also be a need to at the minimum license manufacturing of core replacement parts for regular wear and tear. For example, gun barrel.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

That brings us back to the question of industrial capacity and the minimum annual order quantities. In order build and retain capacity to produce replacement barrels and other spare parts in sufficient quantities. So that fighting can be continued.

Because in times of war, you can't wake up a say that you need build a capacity to produce 5000 barrels per month. When your pre war capacity was, say 50 barrels per month. The industrial and human resources required to accomplish that is an order of magnitude different from one to another.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by pravula »

Pratyush wrote: 14 May 2024 09:06 ^^^

That brings us back to the question of industrial capacity and the minimum annual order quantities. In order build and retain capacity to produce replacement barrels and other spare parts in sufficient quantities. So that fighting can be continued.

Because in times of war, you can't wake up a say that you need build a capacity to produce 5000 barrels per month. When your pre war capacity was, say 50 barrels per month. The industrial and human resources required to accomplish that is an order of magnitude different from one to another.
U certainly can. That’s what NATO is doing right now. :mrgreen:
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Can it still be done after PRC has solved it's force protection and sustainment issues in Tibet.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

Yes takes a long lead times to set up production ecosystem and scale up from orders being placed. Usually it is anywhere between 12 months to 36 months.

And sometimes even longer when original vendors go out of business.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

True, we are country which expects Arjun and LCA to be delivered without placing Orders, highest rate of production with 3 years lead time is Orders/8 or 10 if their further promise of orders. But free bus and revdi win elections, we have too many players with the eco systems to disturb everything.

Lets hope Ukraine/ Other conflicts keep happening sucking up suppliers in other parts of the world and we are forced to supply ME/ AFRICA and SE asia which feeding our domestic stocks, that is only way our MIC will ever pick up speed.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ashthor »

The world will buy from us but we will not buy indian.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

pravula wrote: 14 May 2024 09:13
Pratyush wrote: 14 May 2024 09:06 ^^^

That brings us back to the question of industrial capacity and the minimum annual order quantities. In order build and retain capacity to produce replacement barrels and other spare parts in sufficient quantities. So that fighting can be continued.

Because in times of war, you can't wake up a say that you need build a capacity to produce 5000 barrels per month. When your pre war capacity was, say 50 barrels per month. The industrial and human resources required to accomplish that is an order of magnitude different from one to another.
U certainly can. That’s what NATO is doing right now. :mrgreen:
How, sir?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

Sarcasm Saar.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Prem Kumar wrote: 11 May 2024 12:39 Baba Kalyani's son, in an interview recently, said that they can ramp up production to even 250 Guns per annum!!

As mody said above, forget China, overmatch vs Pakistan or 2.5 front war! We are facing a situation where Pakis will outgun us

Given the massive indigenous production capacity, this is criminal negligence by the IA leadership import lobby, bordering on treason

Like it or not, Modi Ji needs to step in and clean house
Kalyani already recently gave a statement that they are going to focus on export opportunities for the ATAGS, as the orders from IA haven't materialized as yet. Truly a sad state of affairs. Even placing a measly order of 307 ATAGS is taking so long. Baba Kalyani had spoken about a potential future upgrade of the ATAGS to a 58 caliber version. With a 25 liter chamber and 58 caliber barrel, the gun would be able to fire precision guided shells to ranges between 75 to 100 Kms. All this can be done, only if the decision makers get off their high horse and start placing orders for domestic systems.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote: 14 May 2024 16:24 ^^^

Sarcasm Saar.
Oh. Apologies.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

mody wrote: 14 May 2024 16:47 ...
Kalyani already recently gave a statement that they are going to focus on export opportunities for the ATAGS, as the orders from IA haven't materialized as yet. Truly a sad state of affairs.
...
Could even be downright farcical. Imagine if Kalyani systems got orders from the gelf and they in turn loan/pass on some of the pieces to the pakis...
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

The Indian Army learnt that there was a Company called Tonbo Imaging after the Americans praised the Tonbo scopes they were using in a joint exercise. Such is the state of affairs.

https://www.livemint.com/companies/sta ... 060.html

Read it all
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
:((

Maybe RAW agents could pose as foreign defense consultants/contractors and praise indigenous products as “state-of-the-art” (brochure-worthy) in their meetings with IA top brass :twisted:
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Not enough, unless RAW agent also shows up with baksheesh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Prem Kumar wrote: 16 May 2024 09:43 Not enough, unless RAW agent also shows up with baksheesh
It's children and thier future too, one aspect is foreign company taking 15% commission putting foreign sticker on an Indian product
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Canadian Armed Forces Journal article on Russian artillery modernization.

https://www.canada.ca/en/army/services/ ... ation.html

Will post text later.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote: 26 May 2024 08:35 Canadian Armed Forces Journal article on Russian artillery modernization.

https://www.canada.ca/en/army/services/ ... ation.html

Will post text later.

I read the article. Overall an okay read into the Russian arty developments.

However it's written for those who have not been regularly reading about Russian military developments over the last 10 to 15 years.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Link: https://youtu.be/r2YQhoJF_o4?si=3BsTLHbCdhn-JCX9





The video describes the efforts required to make the K-9 and its uniqueness in the Western world.

India should get 400-600 K-9s as a lesson from the Ukraine war.
Getting a few 100 K-9s is ridiculous.

With its burst fire mode, a K-9 battery is equal to two Bofors at a minimum.
And much more mobile.
India should develop its own armor plate from the Arjun tank pedigree.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1800181925350670461 ---> CCS clearance for LCH with ATGMs, 12 Su-30MKIs and MP-ATGM to be granted, meeting likely in August 2024. Might include: 307 ATAGS and 100 K-9s as well.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
Even when it’s indigenous IDDM, there is no “fast track” process.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Rakesh wrote: 10 Jun 2024 22:47 https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1800181925350670461 ---> CCS clearance for LCH with ATGMs, 12 Su-30MKIs and MP-ATGM to be granted, meeting likely in August 2024. Might include: 307 ATAGS and 100 K-9s as well.
Thathasthu! Hope the 100-day plan that Modi chalked up prior to elections, has some serious defence items in it
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

Has ATAGS been supplied to Armenia?? (per wiki 80+ ordred by Armenia)
Any indication of how they have fared in Armenia
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I have seen confirmed news of the receipt of 6 MARG. No confirmation for the rest of contract.

Armenia has not seen any fighting over the last 12 months for results to come out.

Politically speaking, Armenia has been giving ground without any fighting since 2020. The Russians are letting Armenia bleed. Perhaps because of who is the current leader of that nation. That clown is letting his country be picked apart by Azerbaijan. Because in order to join the western world. Armenia has to have settled borders. Nagorno Karabakh was a dispute. But what he had not understood, that the Azerbaijanis had a similar enclave on the Armenian -Turkish border. Now the Azeris are demanding the handover of that enclave.

It's a flustercuck.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Anshuni Limited receives Rs 682 crore letter of interest for supply of 155mm shells
https://aninews.in/news/business/anshun ... 614192814/
14 June 2024
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

This is for 250 k empty shells to be delivered between 2025 to 2030. Contingent upon munitions India Ltd reciving confirmed orders.

It's a good development from the POV of developing metallurgical capacity within the private sector industry.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

mody wrote: 10 May 2024 15:03 https://swarajyamag.com/defence/as-indi ... d-howitzer

Pakistan could possibly be ordering more than 400 SH-15 truck mounted howitzers from China, whereas we are still twiddling our thumbs.
...At this rate, even the Pakis will outgun us, forget about China.
Oh its worse than that. They already have some SH-15's already if I remember correctly. So this order would be on top of that. Like I had posted earlier somewhere in this thread, the pakis have outnumbered us in self-propelled artillery from the 1960's till today. We seem determined to continue that fine tradition.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

But Pakis like Ukranians get everything for free, we can only compete if we manufacture the equipment, but there are International Lobbies with domestic Partners willing to scuttle every development
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Money is not an issue. Our GDP increases by the equivalent of Paki's GDP each year

The issues are at DG Artillery level:

1) Inability to plan or execute
2) Import lobby & gravy train
3) Lack of vision
4) Unwillingness to learn from own successes & mistakes
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

nachiket wrote: 18 Jun 2024 10:16
mody wrote: 10 May 2024 15:03 https://swarajyamag.com/defence/as-indi ... d-howitzer

Pakistan could possibly be ordering more than 400 SH-15 truck mounted howitzers from China, whereas we are still twiddling our thumbs.
...At this rate, even the Pakis will outgun us, forget about China.
Oh its worse than that. They already have some SH-15's already if I remember correctly. So this order would be on top of that. Like I had posted earlier somewhere in this thread, the pakis have outnumbered us in self-propelled artillery from the 1960's till today. We seem determined to continue that fine tradition.
Pakistan already has the SH-15 in their arsenal. This is an additional order that they are planning. They could potentially end up having more than 600 self propelled 155mm guns, as opposed to 100 K9 Vajra with the Indian Army.

We already have the old Bhim prototype with the Arjun chassis and Denel gun. L&T is also making the K9 Vajra. If higher indigenous content is required, ask L&T to partner with Tata or Kalyani to develop a ATAGS version suitable for the existing K9 Vajra chassis. Most of the chassis is made by L&T and the gun turret is imported from Korea. If the existing gun turret is replaced by a ATAGS derivative and the new indigenous 1,500HP indigenous engine is used, we would a largely indigenous solution ready.

The pakis also have a SoKo designed 155mm artillery ammunition shell factory.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

Saar, these are logical alternatives but logic does not work with DGArtillery. We need everything to be gold plated in PZH2000 and Ceasar mode. And even when we do develop one like Atags it is deemed to be unsuitable because it is too advanced.

DGArtillery is just holding out for Athos gun at the cost of everything else.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

IA has screwed up the procurement of:

1) Artillery
2) Armor
3) Infantry

Need one say more?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

mody wrote: 18 Jun 2024 18:34 We already have the old Bhim prototype with the Arjun chassis and Denel gun. L&T is also making the K9 Vajra. If higher indigenous content is required, ask L&T to partner with Tata or Kalyani to develop a ATAGS version suitable for the existing K9 Vajra chassis. Most of the chassis is made by L&T and the gun turret is imported from Korea. If the existing gun turret is replaced by a ATAGS derivative and the new indigenous 1,500HP indigenous engine is used, we would a largely indigenous solution ready.
There is no need to resurrect the ghost of the Bhim. We already have the truck mounted ATAGS in testing. All we need to do is fast track the orders once the trials are complete. But last we heard, it would take 7 years for orders to materialize as per the current procurement plan apparently. This and more orders for the K9 Vajra should completely take care of our self-propelled artillery needs.

Image

If we need something lighter and more mobile, Kalyani has the MaRG-155mm (39cal) mounted on a 4x4 HMV:

Image

They are apparently selling this to Armenia. No orders from the IA of course.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The Adani's are going to be producing Athos in India under a different name and the Indian army is going to procure it.

The 12 ton guns that they had released the RFI for a few years ago will be given a quite burial along with the complete and utter destruction of any indigenous capability to design arty in India.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^

All recent updates (Artillery, Armor, etc) point to “imports” under the guise of MII. Nothing has changed in the end :twisted:
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Pratyush wrote: 19 Jun 2024 10:43 The Adani's are going to be producing Athos in India under a different name and the Indian army is going to procure it.

The 12 ton guns that they had released the RFI for a few years ago will be given a quite burial along with the complete and utter destruction of any indigenous capability to design arty in India.
If this news is true and the army is allowed to buy the guns by the Govt., then what RaGa says about Adani and the current Administration might be true!! :cry:
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

It's not about either Adani or Modi government.

It's the Indian army. Their mind is fixated on Athos. Adani is just the latest prospective Indian screwdriver for the bloody thing.

The Israelis have tied up with whose who of the Indian Industrial partners over the last nearly 15 years. Starting with Punj Lloyd, Bharat Forge, the OFB, Adani is just the latest.

You are not going to change the Indian Army's mind.

If this deal is signed, I will also abuse the Modi government. But not due to Adani.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/Kunal_Biswas707/status/18 ... 3421763042 ---> Blast From The Past - a rare photo of a hybrid 155mm x 39 caliber SPGH, consisting of a British Vickers AS90 turret, mated with an Indian made Russian T-72M1 chassis in India back in 1993-1994. If inducted In the Indian Army, this beast would have been decisive in upcoming battles and skirmishes.

Image

https://x.com/chinmoyboruah/status/1805287406335410493 ---> Not just that, also this with AUF-1 155mm turret. But both the design were ridiculous and impractical IMO.

Image
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

Lt Gen P R Shankar has a YT on ammunition for long wars. He goes into depth about all the issues in scaling up ammo, private vs public entities and other factors.

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