Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

[Rakesh]

We paid French for integrating these addons to F3 variant, the newer one is F4. We will still have to pay French once again to integrate them to the new variant.

Some of the components in the F4 variant came from the F3R(I) variant that the IAF operates.

The money India spent on the ISE for the Rafale was used to fund the development of the F4 variant

[Cybaru]

^^^
IMO, repeat of MMRCA 1.0 GoI will get a sticker price shock. Looking at upwards of $30 billion plus for triple digits Rafales. To put in context, 36 Rafales costs $8 billion and that was without ToT/license assembly.

First order of the day will likely go for 97 follow-on Tejas Mk1A. That itself will be around $8 billion deal.

Tejas Mk2 MWF and AMCA are still on the drawing boards so to speak. GoI doesn’t have to spend large amounts on those just yet. Maybe only after the next election cycle in 5-years at the earliest.

So there is a room for “some” type of deal for Rafales for the IN and IAF, but doubtful if it exceeds beyond $10 billion. Quantities will be limited.

There is no appetite in GOI to spend more on defence. They are even going after DRDO to try and move it's core capabilities to the pvt sector whom they think will spend on R&D on their own for assured orders abd hence the R&D budget can be directed towards the usual political stuff. Sadly, even this Govt will not wake up until and unless there is conflict at its doorstep. ABV in 1999 was quite similar in his own way.

The pace of orders has been so disappointing. It makes no difference which govt is in power, none can seem to order. Parrikar was the only breath of fresh air in many decades.

[Khalsa]

One can only hope that the 24 Election brings the MMRCA Drama to an end. We will see finalization and execution of the Naval Rafales. Plus the final Air Force order.

Until the above does not happen, I am sorry to see but our IAF will continue to choke and strangle the desi babies till the phoren baby deal is signed in ink and blood.

[mody]

We paid French for integrating these addons to F3 variant, the newer one is F4. We will still have to pay French once again to integrate them to the new variant.

Some of the components in the F4 variant came from the F3R(I) variant that the IAF operates.

The money India spent on the ISE for the Rafale was used to fund the development of the F4 variant

The India specific enhancements doesn't mean that the planes come ready integrated with Indian weapons. It means that the French will offer us access to APIs so that we can integrate our own weapons if required. All the testing for the same would have to be carried out and in some cases we would still need help from the OEM to integrate some specific weapons system and we would have to pay for the same. If we run into trouble while integrating some weapons system (e.g. like the flutter issue with the Python-V on the Tejas), we would still need help from the OEM and would have to pay them for the same.

The French themselves have to spend a fair bit to integrate new stuff on the planes. I have written in the Rafael thread, how the French had to run a new dedicated fiber optic line from the pylon to the cockpit to integrate the Talios targeting pod in place of the old Damocles pod, as per of the F4.1 upgrade. Integrating the Litening-IV pod would have also involved some such additional work, which we had to pay for.

[Rakesh]

One can only hope that the 24 Election brings the MMRCA Drama to an end. We will see finalization and execution of the Naval Rafales. Plus the final Air Force order.

Until the above does not happen, I am sorry to see but our IAF will continue to choke and strangle the desi babies till the phoren baby deal is signed in ink and blood.

When Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria (retd) recently joined the BJP, many were elated as he is a strong proponent of Atmanirbhar Bharat. The Indian defence community on Twitter was jumping up with joy. This same community - I am afraid - will be disappointed when the dice is finally rolled by Bhadauria Sir. IMVHO, Sir is being brought on board to handle the messaging.

The 2024 Elections will indeed spell the end of the MMRCA/MRFA saga. The second tranche of 97 Mk1As will be ordered, the 26 Rafale Ms will be ordered, there will be a firm commitment on the Tejas Mk2 by Air HQ and to tie these up, will be the MRFA. And who better to drive that message home than Sir himself. You really have to hand it to the Govt and especially the PM. NaMo plays chess 10 steps ahead of everyone else.

[srai]

^^^
Time will tell!

Too many years of high hopes ending in disappointment

[ashthor]

Mk2 is coming so is Rafale 72+ 26(M) just enough to start local production for India and exports.

[srai]

^^^
I remember someone in this forum guaranteeing Modi GoI will sign the MMRCA (SE) in the last election cycle. More that 5-years have gone by fast!

[basant]

[Pratyush]

https://idrw.org/tejas-mk-2-set-for-fir ... e_vignette

IDRW, is quoting ADA chief, that the first flight of the MWF will take place in 2025.

Since 2025 is till the end of 31st of December. The timeline, if met, is extremely aggressive.

But i just wish that the various responsible Babu log to keep there mouths shut in such things.

They should simply say that the program is on schedule and is expected to perform XYZ operation in due course.

[nachiket]

But i just wish that the various responsible Babu log to keep there mouths shut in such things.

They should simply say that the program is on schedule and is expected to perform XYZ operation in due course.

Exactly. We have heard all kinds of highly optimistic timelines in the past. And then we came to know that the funding wasn't even being released in full till the engine negotiations had been completed. So on what basis were these rollout and first flight dates being given out? I don't know.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1779389129283002525 ---> HAL CMD on LCA AF Mk2: Certain parts being manufactured. HAL expects first prototype to roll out by the end of 2025. Expects to deliver first aircraft by 2029. Ambitious timeline, requires extremely smooth coordination and of course, satisfactory trials.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1791491287537086617 ---> HAL is looking to roll out the first LCA Mk2 by March 2026.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1791492414508765395 ----> Source: HAL Analyst/Investor Meet

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1793943714898788561 ---As we know now, projected first flight of Tejas Mk2 is around (fingers crossed).

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1793940581304922612 ---> Mark 2, here we...

[ashishvikas]

The Tejas Mark 2: Incremental development

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2024/05/part ... l.html?m=1

[drnayar]

an useful image to refer to

source: janes.com

[drnayar]

source : https://chanakyaforum.com/lca-tejas-rea ... ith-glory/

[Kartik]

The Tejas Mark 2: Incremental development

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2024/05/part ... l.html?m=1

Lazy ass article, filled with wrong info. Regurgitates stuff that everyone knows, but mixes up facts and data all over.

Tejas Mk2 MTOW is 17,500 kg not 16,500 kg.

Tejas Mk2 completed it's Critical Design Review (CDR) in November 2021 itself, only after which the AoN was granted by CCS in September 2022.

So when this Ajai Shukla writes that it completed it's PDR in November 2023, I can only laugh. He's egotistical enough that even if this is pointed out, he will stick to his outlandish claim and refuse to change it, attributing it to the HAL CMD.

Here is the Janes article that states that the CDR for Tejas Mk2 was completed in November 2021. The Govt. accorded AoN to the Tejas Mk2 in September 2022! So where is the question of PDR being completed in November 2023? Kuch bhi!

Update- India sanctions Tejas Mk2 fighter

[JTull]

source : https://chanakyaforum.com/lca-tejas-rea ... ith-glory/

Mk1A payload isn't 5300 but it's 3500

[Prem Kumar]

The best article to read comparing Tejas-Mk2, Gripen-E, Mirage-2000 etc is the one by our own Indranil Roy in Delhi Defence Review. Rest is bakwas

Unfortunately, the DDR website is down now - something I have seen happen in the past too

[Kartik]

source : https://chanakyaforum.com/lca-tejas-rea ... ith-glory/

Mk1A payload isn't 5300 but it's 3500

Wrong.

Tejas Mk1 payload - 3,500 kg
Tejas Mk1A payload - 4,000 kg

Source- HAL CMD Ananthkrishnan during his interview with Mr Gokhale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk3xiSjTQtk&t=1625s

[VinodTK]

Part 3: The Tejas Mark 2: Incremental development

(Part III of a four-part series on the Tejas)

[VinodTK]

Part 3: The Tejas Mark 2: Incremental development

(Part III of a four-part series on the Tejas)

================================

Timeline: Tejas Mark 2 development

Preliminary Design Review : December 2023

First Mark 2 prototype build : June 2026

Flight testing (two years) : June 2028

Delivery begins of production aircraft : June 2029

Building of Tejas Mark 2 fleet (5 years) : 2035-36

[hgupta]

And yet this plane is only equal to Mirage 2000 or f-16 blk 52 which both of them are already 30 years old while China is already fielding 5th gen fighters in huge numbers.

India is seriously behind the ball.

[LakshmanPST]

Part 3: The Tejas Mark 2: Incremental development

(Part III of a four-part series on the Tejas)

================================

Timeline: Tejas Mark 2 development

Preliminary Design Review : December 2023

First Mark 2 prototype build : June 2026

Flight testing (two years) : June 2028

Delivery begins of production aircraft : June 2029

Building of Tejas Mark 2 fleet (5 years) : 2035-36

I don't think production will start before 2030...
Mk2 will most probably use same facilities as Mk1A only... Mk2 production will only start after Mk1A production ends in 2032...
Contract signing for Mk2 may happen only in 2030...
Manufacturing of parts may start in 2031...
Mk2 assembly may start in 2033 and production aircraft will start coming out from 2034...

[Raman]

And yet this plane is only equal to Mirage 2000 or f-16 blk 52 which both of them are already 30 years old while China is already fielding 5th gen fighters in huge numbers.

India is seriously behind the ball.

That's not quite true - there is more to an aircraft than just payload. Tejas Mk2 will have a lot of tech that is being developed for AMCA, so it's systems and corresponding capability will be quite a bit higher than a Mirage 2000 or F-16 Block 52. It will be a lot more comparable to Rafale in sophistication.

That being said, for sure there remain gaps in both numbers and pace of development.

[Karan M]

And yet this plane is only equal to Mirage 2000 or f-16 blk 52 which both of them are already 30 years old while China is already fielding 5th gen fighters in huge numbers.

India is seriously behind the ball.

Completely mistaken. Please do a bit more research about what Tejas Mk2 is to have. As far as 5th gen goes, the Mk2 with an adequate sensor network should be able to hold it's own.

[Pratyush]

One more thing. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

Within the Tibetan theatre of operations. IAF will have a numerical advantage. And will be nearly matched technologically.

[JTull]

Mk1A payload isn't 5300 but it's 3500

Wrong.

Tejas Mk1 payload - 3,500 kg
Tejas Mk1A payload - 4,000 kg

Source- HAL CMD Ananthkrishnan during his interview with Mr Gokhale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk3xiSjTQtk&t=1625s

Please listen again from this point
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk3xiSjTQtk&t=2030s

Tejas Mk1 payload - 3,000 kg
Tejas Mk1A payload - 3,500 kg

[ramana]

The podded gun for Mk2 what model it it?
Is it 23mm or 30 mm caliber?

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1813918583111745683 ---> HAL has signed an amendment to MoU with ADA w.r.t. completion of LCA AF Mk2 development, leading to operation clearance during Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Phase-3 of LCA AF Mk2 program for a value of Rs 2,970 crores including FE of Rs 285 crores.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1821901936007991656 ---> Secretary DDR&D and Chairman DRDO, Deputy Chief of Air Staff took high level review meeting of LCA MK-II development program by ADA at DRDO Bhawan. DRDO Labs and DGs of DRDO clusters involved in the development of systems, sub-systems, CEMILAC and NFTC associated with Flight Testing of the prototype participated and presented the development status, risk and mitigation plan towards realisation of first fly worthy prototype.

[Rakesh]

Link below has access to the article. But it is behind a paywall. If someone has the link to the entire article, please post that link in here. The deal for additional GE F404 turbofans - for the second tranche of 97 Mk1As - are also being negotiated.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1822 ... Tymk2TdEXQ —-> Technical, price bids submitted in fighter jet engine deal with US. ToT to include coating for the hot end of the engine as well as crystal blades and laser drilling technology. Bengaluru is the location for the new engine factory.

Reports: @manupubby

[Rakesh]

Summary tweet from the above article.

https://x.com/vinoddx9/status/182218111 ... Tymk2TdEXQ —> Big updates on Indo-US engine deal:

1) Signing within 6 months.
2) 99 GE F414 engines.
3) Deal estimated to be US $1 billion with ToT
4) Facility operational within 2 years.
5) Order size to grow eventually.
6) Negotiation initiated for more GE F404 for next 97 Tejas Mk 1A.

[Rakesh]

Someone uploaded the article…

https://x.com/sushantsin/status/1822126 ... Tymk2TdEXQ —>

[srai]

Still need to “discuss size and scope of ToT”

[maitya]

Link below has access to the article. But it is behind a paywall. If someone has the link to the entire article, please post that link in here. The deal for additional GE F404 turbofans - for the second tranche of 97 Mk1As - are also being negotiated.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1822 ... Tymk2TdEXQ —-> Technical, price bids submitted in fighter jet engine deal with US. ToT to include coating for the hot end of the engine as well as crystal blades and laser drilling technology. Bengaluru is the location for the new engine factory.

Reports: @manupubby
https://x.com/sushantsin/status/1822126 ... Tymk2TdEXQ

Notice the play of words (have highlighted it) - anybody (less informed) reading it will quickly infer as if the entire mass-manufacturing tech of SC casting (4th Gen) of HPT blades (and vanes) are being handed over in a platter, via this ToT program.

Reality ofcourse will be very different - read here - machining of already casted SC blades, and then TBC coating of it, are the very last 2 stages of any turbine blade (and vanes as well) manufacturing process/technology.
Does it mean, raw (i.e. green-casted) HPT/LPT blades (and vanes) will arrive as SKD units (maybe even the PM based HPT/LPT discs as well), which will then be machined and TBC coated before being assembled with the other SKD unit (HPT Disc), to create a HPT/LPT stage?
[Don't worry such of level of reporting will never happen, given the lack of even rudimentary level of technological depth of DDM (which means such questions will never get enquired upon)]

And then, few years later, when somebody points out that HAL is waiting for HPT blades (vanes) to be shipped from GE, USA (and is resulting in some sort of delay of a platform production etc), the collective rudali, led by the very same DDM, will start again viz. "HAL bad/incompetent", "Break-up HAL", "No Accountability" etc etc.

So, people here when they start posting such nonsense, often spicing up these blabberings with their own egg-spert comments, like they are doing now (wrt Mk1A delay etc), sometime feels like it has been a complete waste of time and effort wrt posting on these very aspects, often repeatedly, for so long (spanning decades).

========================================================================================================
But, then again, that shouldn't deter some of us to continue pointing out the facts, ad nauseum - so here goes, AGAIN:
At a very generic level (almost embarrassingly generic actually) there are 6 essential steps of SC casting (or for that matter, DS casting) of any TF turbine blades (and vanes):
1) Raw Material processing – Ingot prep
2) Mold Production (hint: Alumina based vs Silica based core prep, at mass mfg levels)
3) Investment Casting
4) Heat Treatment
5) Coating/TBC and Laser Drilling
6) Testing (NDT etc)
etc.
(Hint: you may want to refer to my many posts in the Kaveri thread, wrt all of these steps, a la Kaveri program and 4th and 5th Gen TF technologies involved.
Just an an example, coverage wrt step no 2, and also the struggle that GTRE/DMRL/MIDHANI et all had to endure, spanning 1.5decade+, wrt the Kaveri program)

After this comes the entirely different ultra-high-tech mfg technologies of actually assembling (read joining) the blades to the disc, testing them etc - and even after that comes another complex technological word of "repairing" these blades (and vanes), when they invariably get "damaged" during field-operations ...
The list goes on and on and on ...

In the SC world, each of these steps are culmination of multiple ultra-closely-guarded technologies (spanning from the required machinery, the applicable mfg processes and mostly empirical nature of mfg parameters), that have been matured over 7-8+ decades (and zillions of manhours of hardcore R&D and $s).
To be able to mfg SC HPT blades (and vanes), and that too at a mass scale, all of these technological know-how (and almost always not the know whys maybe), machinery, processes, testing methodology and testing data etc, have to be “transferred” - and more importantly absorbed, demonstrated and performed daily, by the recipient team.

Now question is:
If only the ingots are being imported (Step1 above), as is being reported for the AL-31FP, then how (and by who and where) are the rest of the steps being performed, to "indigenously" manufacture the HPT blades (and vanes).
Plus what does that indicate about the competency levels of the teams actually performing those steps, hien jee?
...
...
I'll stop here, and will leave to it the esteemed BRF members to make whatever they want to make out of these/such posts.

[bala]

I just want to add to Maitya ji excellent post. I know factually HAL with ToT never produces critical items for an engine to pass QA and Test. At the last moment there is some jockeying for parts to be shipped directly by Original Vendor and HAL then passes QA & Test. I will stop here.

Just to provide more color on manufacturing, I am familiar with Silicon fabs. The manufacturing floor is filled with machines which cost quite a lot and are highly specialized per domain. The supplier of the machine completely knows the machine back & front. So say Intel does manufacturing of Pentium class chips. The Vendor machines are bought with full support for the machine often paying more than MSRP prices! The lithography machine that Netherlands controls is similar. One of favorite diagrams on blackboard, is straight lines drawn for pnp transistor. However in actuality the surface of wafer is undulating and not straight. To dope it chemically means you have to first understand the undulating surface and then based upon the curve you control doping. Otherwise your device is kaput in manufacturing. Yes practical aspects dominate. Undulating surface is gleaned from another machine which does optical scanning for each wafer. Data is fed into the chemical doping machine from the optical scanner which is yet another vendor machine.

GE ain't giving any tech to HAL. It will be another ToT like above and everyone pretends ToT and HAL making things. There will be many machines supplied by Vendors who will know how to fix them. HAL needs to pay for both machine and support. No shortcuts. HAL will be clueless what the machines does internally.

[YashG]

Actually 'ToT' only helps babus protect the budget in the purchase. Now its swadeshi, so dont question anything now. Once the budget is protected - their commissions are also safeguarded.