Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[Hriday]

@srai ji, thanks for the information. I clearly remember that long ago one of the top-level officer or chief of DRDO stated that our AAD missile is better than the Patriot PAC 3 variant.
So does it mean PAC 3 with the 180 tiny horizontal attitude control motors is inferior in manoeuvring than AAD or he is commenting about the higher range of AAD?
Two advantages of AAD I know are the longer range and the heavier and gimballed warhead which can aim at a missile that can evade AAD's hit-to-kill capability by last-minute manoeuvering.

A wild speculation by me is that Kinzhal does a lot of manoeuvering at higher altitudes or much earlier and by the time it approaches the target it bleeds a lot of speed and has a predictable trajectory. Ukrainians noticed this pattern and 'asked' PAC 3 to wait in a particular area for the Kinzhal to arrive.

I wish subject experts like Haridas, Indranil and others etc post more here. It would be really fun and informative.

[Prem Kumar]

I am reading conflicting variations about the NAL Harop-like drone. I don't think its developed yet. Only the approval for development has been given or maybe the project is in the works

[Pratyush]

There is also an effort to develop an attack version of Abhyas drone as well.

[MeshaVishwas]

Om Shanti.
May his aatma attain Moksha.

With profound grief and sorrow, DRDO offers the condolence on the sad demise of Dr Ram Narain Agarwal outstanding aerospace scientist and Padma Shree, Padma Bhushan awardee, who was instrumental in the development of India’s long range missile, Agni. Om Shanti

- DRDO on X

[SSridhar]

Om Shanthi.
Renowned DRDO scientist Ram Narain Agarwal, Father of Agni Missiles, passes away - Economic Times

[ramana]

1) Very welcome news about Astra-Mk1 additional order! But it bears repeating that these are still woefully inadequate numbers. US supplied Pakis with 500 AIM-120s back in 2006. And Astra-Mk1 is the only BVRAAM in our inventory that matches the AIM-120C/D. There was no reason the IAF could not have placed a larger order and bulk one at that, instead of this piecemeal business. But I guess that's asking for too much

Astra-Mk2 is still a few years away from induction, given our glacial pace of procurement. Hope the IAF is not doing this constant "wait for the next best thing"

2) Regarding Gaurav, I think this is a new variant. The earlier Gaurav test happened way back in 2021 (same 100 Km, 1000 Kg from Su-30 MKI), but it used laser-targeting. The latest test uses GPS, INS, IRNSS for targeting (though even the laser version would need some level of INS/GPS mid-course correction before using lasing for terminal targeting). Hopefully both variants are ordered in numbers. Not sure why there is no news of Gaurav testing (laser one) in the last 2 years - hope its happening and its just us who are unaware of it

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 80880.html

Yes, Gaurav is a purpose-built glide bomb and not a guidance kit for retrofitting iron bombs - the latter are the PG-HSLD kits & the TARA project

3) Btw, no news on SAAW - has been "successfully tested" dozens of times since 2016 and no word on any actual orders

4) There is also a HSLD Mk-2 in the works and the IAF has issued an RFP this month. It states a 180 Km range, for fitting on-board our Mig-29Ks. But since its a Make-III project, this could be license-assembly

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... -missiles/

https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/a ... e/HSLD.pdf

Tribune article is just a word salad. What new info he is providing?
Only that HSLD MKII is desired by the IAF. And calls it a missile when its a bomb!
The RFP also repeats the error of calling it a missile. And the qtys expected are so low why would anyone bid for it?
100 bombs total is bokwas.
Now what I think is they want a glide bomb with a 180km range based on HSLD.
This must be a copycat idea from Russians retrofitting glide kits on the FAB series bombs.
Any that's good.
It also implies the older HSLD are not suitable for glide kits but good for PGM kits which are more expensive.
The big problem will be how to carry this bomb on the existing bomb racks of Su-30MKI and Jaguar?
It has to have a stand-off from the lugs while earlier ones were flush. The reason is the kit will interfere with the current bomb release mechanism.
Someone should research the Jaguar bomb release system to get an idea of the challenges.
Does the IAF want to have build to print partner or a design-and-build partner?

[Muppalla]

Was there ever any information on missile stockpile of India. It's not disclosed but we just do useless extrapolation of maintenance strength and other logistics and assume them as low in numbers. We lack faith in everything and hence we get disappointed.

Regarding faith it reminds me of real story - Very early days of Y2K boom folks were purchasing 10 Honda civics at a time. One of my acquaintances asked the car dealer, how can I believe that air bags are really inside and they work? The dealer got furious as said take insurance and buy the car. Immediately crash it to a tree and see if the bag comes out or not.

[JTull]

@ramana I don't understand your comment about glide kit interfering with release mechanism. The bomb is secured on the opposite side of the fins. There are several videos of FAB bombs rolling 180 degrees and wings unfold. There's no reason to doubt desi version would be any different.

You can see the mechanism in the image with this tweet.

https://x.com/Kunal_Biswas707/status/16 ... MQ3A&s=19

[srai]

^^^

[Haridas]

..

[Haridas]

^^^
Pratyush ji, thanks for the suggestions. Over 15 years ago I was addicted to BRF missile thread. Spent many hours of the day just drooling over various missile photos and their specifications. Now I don't feel like spending that much time, but still follow this thread because missiles win war.

Adding just one more interesting fact about Brahmos here; long ago Arun_S commented on the photo of a Brahmos missile that had several triangular cuts along the rim of air intake; saying that it would add more stealth. He also said F-22 class stealth is possible for Brahmos. Maybe that's the basis of statements like Brahmos can't be shot down.

I still hold that assertion.
Frontal RCS is already quite low. Last decade is long enough time for Brahmos for further RCS reduction. Few relatively easy methods to do it. Not sure if it's done.
Easiest one is inlet rim modification to change frontal ring using low Dk ( dielectric constant) and moderate loss composite material and inclined up 3 degrees. The nose radar cone inside need to b made of frequency selective meta material.

The jagged metal input rim with composite lossy fill in such that front is even rim, and inclined 3 degree up is another way for even lower rim reflection

Bharat has huge inventory.

Only war will tell enemy what it is. All else is Maya onleee . IOW apwaad.

[Haridas]

I cannot look at an object and definitely state it's radar returns or wether it can be intercepted or not.

But having seen and read about SAM interceptions. I can definitely state the following.

The success of failure of a SAM system is a function of several factors. Namely, but not limited to; (and I am including multiple additional factors within the list below)

1) Detection and tracking.
2) The Interception geometry.
3) Available energy for the interceptor missile.

If interception geometry is optimal. Any airborne/ space born object can be intercepted. If it's within the operational parameters of the specific system.

If Interception geometry is not optimal, even the best system in the world with fail to intercept the target.

This is not addressing the human factors, in terms of training, stress, morale, etc.

Include the 2, and variables for a successful interception go up substantially.

It's as clear as the mud.

Yes, IMO #1 is most important.

[Haridas]

Om Shanthi.
Renowned DRDO scientist Ram Narain Agarwal, Father of Agni Missiles, passes away - Economic Times

I considered him one of my heroes since my time w BRF.

BHARAT MATAA ka sapoot on his eternal journey.
Bhagawaan sadgati deyway.
Om Shanti.

[Haridas]

......

4) There is also a HSLD Mk-2 in the works and the IAF has issued an RFP this month. It states a 180 Km range, for fitting on-board our Mig-29Ks. But since its a Make-III project, this could be license-assembly

.....

Tribune article is just a word salad. What new info he is providing?
Only that HSLD MKII is desired by the IAF. And calls it a missile when its a bomb!
The RFP also repeats the error of calling it a missile. And the qtys expected are so low why would anyone bid for it?
100 bombs total is bokwas.
Now what I think is they want a glide bomb with a 180km range based on HSLD.
This must be a copycat idea from Russians retrofitting glide kits on the FAB series bombs.
Any that's good.
It also implies the older HSLD are not suitable for glide kits but good for PGM kits which are more expensive.
The big problem will be how to carry this bomb on the existing bomb racks of Su-30MKI and Jaguar?
It has to have a stand-off from the lugs while earlier ones were flush. The reason is the kit will interfere with the current bomb release mechanism.
Someone should research the Jaguar bomb release system to get an idea of the challenges.
Does the IAF want to have build to print partner or a design-and-build partner?

The roosi FAB range is no greater than 100km when released from 10 km altitude AGL. Would not be surprised if it's glide ratio is limited to 8 to 9 (i.e. 80 to 90 km range across 10km altitude loss).


The 180 km range IMO can't be realized on pure glide (passive) range, as it would require long slender wings that won't fit folded under wing of fighter.

180 km range only means it's a rocket assisted glide craft.

As Vishwakarma prasaad, I would say it will be released at 10 km AGL. Glide down to 5 km AGL (50 km), fire long burn rocket motor to increase altitude to 13 km AGL (add 130km tange) accelerating slowly with peak velocity < 400Kt.

Challenge is the rocket fuel CG has to be close to weapon's CG. Can be done with dual wing configuration.

[ramana]

If so how is it a bomb? It's a missile as it has guidance.

JTull we know about Sudarshan and lack of roll control. Besides the roll maneuver cause loss of energy and thus range.
This 180 km for a bomb is a stretch goal and will waste a decade.

[Pratyush]

The Indian armed forces are known for wasting time of indigenous efforts to develop systems.

I cannot say anything about the sought range of the system the way it's sought to be executed.

But having studied the development of SAAW and its comparable systems. A range of 180 kms is not possible with an unpowered system.

The DRDO has recently initiated a program for the development of a powered SAAW.

https://idrw.org/drdo-explores-new-vari ... e_vignette

Published on 5th July 2023.

Note that the unpowered system has a range of 100 kms.

[JTull]

If so how is it a bomb? It's a missile as it has guidance.

JTull we know about Sudarshan and lack of roll control. Besides the roll maneuver cause loss of energy and thus range.
This 180 km for a bomb is a stretch goal and will waste a decade.

Let us not confuse travails of Sudarshan which was 20 years ago to what our capabilities are today. It didn't have large deployable wings as Gaurav does.

FAB-3000 will have different max-range from FAB-500/1000 besides just the firepower. Max range is also a function of lift from the wings,dimensions of which are related to bomb size. And the aircraft's flight profile at release!

[Prem Kumar]

The Indian armed forces are known for wasting time of indigenous efforts to develop systems.

I cannot say anything about the sought range of the system the way it's sought to be executed.

But having studied the development of SAAW and its comparable systems. A range of 180 kms is not possible with an unpowered system.

The DRDO has recently initiated a program for the development of a powered SAAW.

https://idrw.org/drdo-explores-new-vari ... e_vignette

Published on 5th July 2023.

Note that the unpowered system has a range of 100 kms.

Seems on par with global standards. Example: Spice-250 (unpowered) has a 100 Km range. To develop a 150 Km version, they are working on a Spice-250ER version with propulsion. The schematics of Spice-250-ER look similar to Gaurav

[JTull]

Ignore. It's just idrw verbal diarr..

[Rakesh]

Bingo!

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Archit_Ch/status/1823778666792288536 ---> Wow! So looks like the upcoming missile from the PG-LRSAM programme will have a range >250km (at least, for the naval variant). And interception capability at Mach 7 should be sufficient for short range ballistic missiles at least.

Source (timestamped URL):https://youtu.be/nK8D8sLeIjI?t=1810

[Haridas]

https://www.eurasiantimes.com/muscle-in ... ahmos/amp/

The diminished radar cross-section (RCS) and enhanced stealth of the new and compact BrahMos next-generation missile will complicate detection and engagement by air defense systems.

[Haridas]

If so how is it a bomb? It's a missile as it has guidance.

JTull we know about Sudarshan and lack of roll control. Besides the roll maneuver cause loss of energy and thus range.
This 180 km for a bomb is a stretch goal and will waste a decade.

Namining distinction is getting blurred with rockets being called rockets inspite of addition of guidence. Similarly Safran Hammer is bomb add on with extended glide kit, guidence and rocket.

[nachiket]

Patriot Proves Counter-hypersonic Capability

June 25, 2023

Two batteries of the Raytheon SAM system sent to Ukraine immediately proved their worth, shooting down Russia’s vaunted Kinzhal hypersonic missile.

I feel the need to point this out again. The "vaunted" Kinzhal is still a ballistic missile not a cruise missile. Think of it as an air-launched Iskander with a reportedly higher max speed. It is still unpowered in the terminal stage and will have very different flight characteristics to a hypersonic cruise missile like the Zircon. The media as usual sees the word "hypersonic" and gets all excited forgetting that most ballistic missiles out there are hypersonic. Even the 1950's designed Scud was hypersonic and plenty of them were taken out by Saudi Patriot batteries in the Yemen war. The Iskanders themselves have been intercepted in the Ukraine war as well, so a Patriot battery intercepting a Kinzhal is not that big of a surprise.

[Prem Kumar]

....
4) There is also a HSLD Mk-2 in the works and the IAF has issued an RFP this month. It states a 180 Km range, for fitting on-board our Mig-29Ks. But since its a Make-III project, this could be license-assembly

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... -missiles/

https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/a ... e/HSLD.pdf

Ok, there is clarity on what this HSLD Mk-2 is. Its nothing but the Israeli Rampage missile. Its powered & guided - not a glide weapon. The recent RFP is to identify a local partner to license-assemble it

We knew that the IAF has been drooling over this for a while now

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/india-t ... up-a-notch

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 649375.cms

The IAF is interested in both the Rampage & ROCKS (Crystal Maze-2). Not much is known about the latter other than the fact that its an ALBM and as per the Swarajya article above, has a 250 Km range

Depending on which numbers we believe, Rampage (HSLD Mk2) has either a 180 Km or 250 Km range. It weighs 570 Kg and is between Mach 1.1 to 1.6. Has a 150 Kg warhead for a variety of A2G targets

Rudram-1 is dedicated to ARM, has a Mach 2 speed, weighs 600 Kg and has a relatively smaller 55 Kg warhead for its ARM role

Rudram-2 is an ALBM with a 800 Kg weight, 150/200 Kg warhead (variety of A2G targets, including an ARM role), a 350 Km range and a Mach 5.5 speed. It might be the rough equivalent of ROCKS

The Rudram series missiles are heavier because they seem to be optimized for higher speeds & longer ranges

[AmolJ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POQA80rT8oA
Indian Navy's Yoga Day Pictures Expose Nuclear Revamp | Vantage with Palki Sharma

[ramana]

Good catch Prem Kumar. The specs match Rampage.
They wanted to put tilak and call it HSLD2.

[Haridas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POQA80rT8oA
Indian Navy's Yoga Day Pictures Expose Nuclear Revamp | Vantage with Palki Sharma

Quite a pathetic show by Palki Sharma. Of late her quality has dropped a big quantum step: lack of substance and half baked / illogical arguments.

It is no news that last month June 24 Dhanush was retired from service. Dhanush was Prithvi based temporary stop gap for sea triad leg when Arihant was yet to be operationalized. Two small ships were fitted with stabilized launcher for teh purpose. Meaning the two ships that carried it no longer doign that role being replaced by longer range sub-surface missile with bigger bang.

[Prem Kumar]

Good catch Prem Kumar. The specs match Rampage.
They wanted to put tilak and call it HSLD2.

Yeah. This is conmanship. Next, if Israel unveils a new BVRAAM (lets call it Derby-XR), the IAF will import it and call it Astra-3

The whitewashing of screwdriver-giri will be complete. Soon, no one can tell which one is Indian

[sanman]

DD covers Brahmos -- again



Has anybody in India not heard all about it by now, multiple times over?

[fanne]

I have no problem if it is rampage repackedged - if it is fully manufactured (and not assembled) in desh.
We have our own programs running and hopefullly delivering in parallel.

[srai]

^^^

…if it is fully manufactured (and not assembled) in desh …

Already disqualified

[ramana]

IAF reported one of their planes dropped a store. No injuries.
Alpha defence says it's a Rampage.
Glad the fuze didn't arm itself during the drop. Looks like a round was wasted.
No info on the plane.

[Aditya_V]

Ramana ji, I think as per reports it's was a training round without the explosives

[ramana]

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... -missiles/

This report explains that HSLD Mark II is a Rampage program with BRD in charge of the program.

IAF officers said that a request for proposal was floated by the Ministry of Defence on August 7, inviting industrial partners to undertake the project that would be overseen by the IAF’s No.11 Base Repair Depot.

According to a statement of case issued by the IAF for the indigenous production of HSLD Mk-II, these missiles are already deployed on the IAF’s Su-30 and Jaguar fighters and there is a requirement to manufacture these weapons within the country.

Modifying the MiG-29 for the HSLD would involve designing and integration of suitable bomb racks to be carried on the aircraft’s external hardpoints under the wings or fuselage and development of an avionics and software package along with cables and associated rigs.

Its full-scale integration project for Rampage on Mig-29 and mfg Rampage in India.
At least they didn't mfg those Hammer bokwas LGBs...

[ramana]

Ramana ji, I think as per reports it's was a training round without the explosives

I was wrong. The 'air store' was a practice bomb that blew and created a small crater.

Its not a Rampage.


https://x.com/i/status/1826211424713978031

[mody]

Recently IAF carried out networked test firing of the Astra MK1 missile from Tejas fighters. The target was tracked and locked onto by 1 Tejas aircraft and the targeting data was then transferred to a second Tejas aircraft to fire the Astra missile. The reports have not mentioned if mid-course guidance was provided to the missile via the data link or not.

This is excellent news and demonstrates a crucial capability of the missile and the aircraft. I am sure the Tejas will also be able to share data with the Su-30MKI and the MiG-29UPG. Not sure whether the Mirage 2000 and Rafale can share data with other IAF aircraft or not.

With the upcoming Tejas MK1A with the AESA radar and EW pod, the performance will only improve. The EW pod can help keep the silent aircraft off the enemy radar to a greater extent and the new AESA radars will have a better detection and targeting range as compared to the current Elta 2032 based hybrid radar, not to mention the capability to track greater number of targets.

[fanne]

There is a video or interview from few years old, on Hushkit, where a serving IAF pilot says that they will like to use the Tejas Mk1A as a sniper (due to its LO coming from composite, rumored that it's RCS is 1/3 of M2K). The Su-30MKI tracks the target at a larger distance and the Tejas Mk1A sneaks near and let go of the AA missile.

[Rakesh]

Recently IAF carried out networked test firing of the Astra MK1 missile from Tejas fighters...

Video of the above post that mody made. Please click on the link below...

VIDEO: https://x.com/Kuntal__biswas/status/1829952592434315532

[srai]

Recently IAF carried out networked test firing of the Astra MK1 missile from Tejas fighters. The target was tracked and locked onto by 1 Tejas aircraft and the targeting data was then transferred to a second Tejas aircraft to fire the Astra missile. The reports have not mentioned if mid-course guidance was provided to the missile via the data link or not.

This is excellent news and demonstrates a crucial capability of the missile and the aircraft. I am sure the Tejas will also be able to share data with the Su-30MKI and the MiG-29UPG. Not sure whether the Mirage 2000 and Rafale can share data with other IAF aircraft or not.

With the upcoming Tejas MK1A with the AESA radar and EW pod, the performance will only improve. The EW pod can help keep the silent aircraft off the enemy radar to a greater extent and the new AESA radars will have a better detection and targeting range as compared to the current Elta 2032 based hybrid radar, not to mention the capability to track greater number of targets.

Excellent!

Remember Gripen brochures used to tout this buddy capability… now Tejas possesses it as well