Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

[Rakesh]

Local 155mm ammunition, broader production vendor base: Army counters supply issues amid Russia-Ukraine war
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... r-9591276/
28 Sept 2024

[Rakesh]

Amid military standoff with China, Indian Army gets new high-altitude firing range in Arunachal's Tawang sector
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 927182923/
27 Sept 2024

[Manish_P]

Local 155mm ammunition, broader production vendor base: Army counters supply issues amid Russia-Ukraine war
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... r-9591276/
28 Sept 2024

'Looking', 'Hoping', 'financial year'.... and if Trump wins the US election and works to scale down the Ukraine adventure, it will be back to placing orders with Russia as usual.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/BharatForgeLtd/status/1839981387434054126 ---> On this Gunners Day 2024, as we salute the valor and dedication of our defense forces, Shri Baba Kalyani, CMD of Bharat Forge Ltd., reflects on India's path towards becoming a $30 trillion economy. Guided by the spirit of Make in India and Atmanirbhar Bharat, we are committed to transforming India’s defense capabilities through innovation and self-reliance. The shift toward renewable energy, advancements in AI & ML and a focus on defense manufacturing underscore our vision to transition from muscle power to brain power. These efforts are crucial to shaping a Viksit Bharat by 2047.

[Rakesh]

India inducting more long-range firepower & indigenising ammo amid border row with China
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 747998.cms
27 Sept 2024

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1839858538950340996 ---> Rs 8,500 crore contract for 307 indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems (ATAGS), with range up to 48 km, to be inked soon. Also, trials begin next year for induction of 300 'shoot-&-scoot' Mounted Gun Systems (MGS) and 400 'versatile' Towed Gun Systems (TGS).

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1839858538950340996 ---> Rs 8,500 crore contract for 307 indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems (ATAGS), with range up to 48 km, to be inked soon. Also, trials begin next year for induction of 300 'shoot-&-scoot' Mounted Gun Systems (MGS) and 400 'versatile' Towed Gun Systems (TGS).

https://x.com/sriramthg/status/1840261106079572339 ---> Orders delayed for ATAGS, trials upon trials as usual for MGS. God knows what's now classified as "versatile" towed guns (army & govt now creating entirely new*classes* of weapons). All coming soon. When are building blocks coming? Nobody knows, nobody cares, nobody asks.

https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1840276618549584258 ---> DG Artillery is talking of 100 more K-9 Vajra while the manufacturing line lies gathering dust for three years now after completing previous orders. In serious nations, when the need and manufacturing capability both exists, orders would be fulfilled in a jiffy to keep costs low and manufacturing line alive.

[srai]

No lessons learnt from the Russian-Ukrainian War … heads still buried in sand … “We will fight with what we got”

[konaseema]

Let us put ourselves in the shoes of the Armed forces and understand why across the board (Army, Navy & Air force) will only accept a product only when they are 200% confident of the performance of the weapon system, even to the extent of the above statement of "We will fight with what we got". Not subjective but in an objective way without prejudice and sarcasm. I would like us to provide suggestions and alternatives like what can be done to encourage our forces to induct a certain % of the total order in the IOC specification. What does it take to convince all 3 services to do IOC / FOC (mimic Tejas) across all Indigenous platforms and NOT need a Manohar Parrikar every single time?

[Manish_P]

...only accept a product only when they are 200% confident of the performance of the weapon system...

How would you decide if you are 100% confident of the performance of a weapons system. Genuinely asking.

[sohamn]

Let us put ourselves in the shoes of the Armed forces and understand why across the board (Army, Navy & Air force) will only accept a product only when they are 200% confident of the performance of the weapon system, even to the extent of the above statement of "We will fight with what we got". Not subjective but in an objective way without prejudice and sarcasm. I would like us to provide suggestions and alternatives like what can be done to encourage our forces to induct a certain % of the total order in the IOC specification. What does it take to convince all 3 services to do IOC / FOC (mimic Tejas) across all Indigenous platforms and NOT need a Manohar Parrikar every single time?

And somehow we are confident 200% about the imported maal, say mig 29, Vikramaditya etc. although their serviceability is low, the performance of these imported maal is 200%. Somehow a soltam gun is so superior than either desi bofors or atags . It's basically our generals hatred towards indigenous products. Foreign and flashy is always better.

[Rakesh]

New Truck-Mounted Howitzer
https://www.spslandforces.com/experts-s ... d-Howitzer
28 Sept 2024

[bala]

I would like us to provide suggestions and alternatives like what can be done to encourage our forces to induct a certain % of the total order in the IOC specification. What does it take to convince all 3 services to do IOC / FOC (mimic Tejas) across all Indigenous platforms and NOT need a Manohar Parrikar every single time?

This happens even in West/Russia/China which is into their own systems. The famed Lockheed Martin Skunkworks believes in 80:20 rule, i.e. 80 % of spec is first targeted by any system they build. The rest 20% comes later. Of course they target only the most significant ones in the 100% which is 80%. Our armed forces are always interested in 100% or more and that is a fallacy during IDDM process or any indigenous dev process. These are basics, there is umpteen literature out there to showcase the above. Since Bharat culture was imports for a long time, the Armed forces became adept at brochure reading and picked the best of the lot and created mythical specs which no one can fulfill. The specs were handed to the Indian IDDM effort which is unobtanium. Everywhere we notice this process. Only the Tejas effort can truly be called IDDM using 80:20 rule. Next came the Helos and Army picked these up since they did not even have a decent air wing and worked with HAL to get the 20% over time after induction. Indian Navy implements the 80:20 rule for their crafts, but lately due to several imports in ISR area are lapsing back into brochuritis. For IDDM to progress we have to adopt the 80:20 rule, it requires a culture change at the leadership level.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/amanroutray7/status/1849164752788005177 ---> ATAGS barrels are getting *modified* again.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1849169023142952966 ---> ATLGS is in making. So TGS will see a stronger competitor.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1849303246923272489 ---> This is incredible and a perfect depiction of the DRDO and their private partners never give up attitude. In the past, a DPSU would have simply given up and let an import go through. Now the import lobby is being fought back. Hope the GOI, PMO, MOD support this.

[srai]

^^^
ATAGS -> 18t (307 guns)
ALTGS -> 15t (400 guns)

Development of the Advanced Light Towed Gun System (ALTGS)

[A Deshmukh]

while we are developing ALTGS (or trying to fit in ALTOS),
we need orders for
- 100 more K9s
- 307 ATAGS

[konaseema]

I would like us to provide suggestions and alternatives like what can be done to encourage our forces to induct a certain % of the total order in the IOC specification. What does it take to convince all 3 services to do IOC / FOC (mimic Tejas) across all Indigenous platforms and NOT need a Manohar Parrikar every single time?

This happens even in West/Russia/China which is into their own systems. The famed Lockheed Martin Skunkworks believes in 80:20 rule, i.e. 80 % of spec is first targeted by any system they build. The rest 20% comes later. Of course they target only the most significant ones in the 100% which is 80%. Our armed forces are always interested in 100% or more and that is a fallacy during IDDM process or any indigenous dev process. These are basics, there is umpteen literature out there to showcase the above. Since Bharat culture was imports for a long time, the Armed forces became adept at brochure reading and picked the best of the lot and created mythical specs which no one can fulfill. The specs were handed to the Indian IDDM effort which is unobtanium. Everywhere we notice this process. Only the Tejas effort can truly be called IDDM using 80:20 rule. Next came the Helos and Army picked these up since they did not even have a decent air wing and worked with HAL to get the 20% over time after induction. Indian Navy implements the 80:20 rule for their crafts, but lately due to several imports in ISR area are lapsing back into brochuritis. For IDDM to progress we have to adopt the 80:20 rule, it requires a culture change at the leadership level.

The different reasons that I can come up are here. And one of them is an analogy from my father.
1) DRDO or the developmental agency unable to explain why they can't deliver the unobtanium spec given to them
2) Technology and / or warfare has changed while DRDO and other developmental agencies are working to arrive at the spec they were provided
3) Armed forces had indeed realized that they never imagined what would be the result of the spec is delivered...aka Arjun MBT
4) Armed forces spec was created to ensure the Developmental agencies will never be able to deliver
5) Developmental agencies did deliver but the armed forces would still say that the imported weapon system is close to my heart (My father would tell my mother that the food was good but not as good as his mother would make - when my mother would ask his feedback)

[ashishvikas]

Bharat Forge emerges as lowest bidder in Indian Army's tender to buy 307 ATAGS howitzers

Read more At:
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 104210930/

[williams]

Many of the things discussed here are technicalities. The bottom line seems to be that there is a strong import lobby that has captured a very significant number of Babus and military decision makers who are motivated by various means to choose imported items and find excuses to reject local stuff. This is obvious because billions of dollars are involved and the seller will go to any length to sell their products.

The political class who sign on these decisions need to figure out a way to motivate these decision makers to root for local stuff and allow their maturing while they live and breath in the actual field. There are to be a motivated coordination between the R&D community, users and the production house to nurture this local military industry. This industry is still by and large in the public sector with all its inefficiencies and local private sector does not have the economic muscle to compete with the foreign OEMs and their agents.

Finally there has to be powerful enough technocrats in the Defence ministry to understand the green field technology development nuances and help a bit with the hand holding. We need to hope for such bold leaders. Hon Parrikar did that well, Gen Rawat showed some signs of it, unfortunately such leaders are in short supply today to fight this invisible monster.

[Rakesh]

Bharat Forge, Tata likely to get DRDO-made towed guns deal
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 956159.cms
05 Nov 2024

[Rakesh]

Bharat Forge & Defence Ministry start contract negotiations for ATAGS
https://theprint.in/defence/bharat-forg ... r/2363625/
19 Nov 2024

[ernest]

Bharat Forge & Defence Ministry start contract negotiations for ATAGS
https://theprint.in/defence/bharat-forg ... r/2363625/
19 Nov 2024

Such a long trial for ATAGS, when it is the leading design worldwide. Hard to digest the gyan we are often given that we need to import the best. Then shifting goalpost to TGS. There is no sane reason for import of towed guns, but somehow the circus continues in one form or the other.

Perhaps in a war 10 years from now, IA can lease some ATAGS from Armenia, or buy them second hand /s.

[Tanaji]

We should actually lease IA generals or get some second hand as clearly the current lot do not have the best interests of their force in mind.

[Haridas]

We should actually lease IA generals or get some second hand as clearly the current lot do not have the best interests of their force in mind.

We should enroll Generals with commonsense in recruitment drive. Catch them young and have 30 yr of continuity at helm.

[VinodTK]

Bad News for Pakistan, China as DRDO plans to expand Pinaka Rocket System with three extended range variants, they are...

120 KM's
150 Km's
200 Km's

[NRao]

ATAGS, ATHOS or Mounted gun systems? Understand India’s artillery plan & where it's headed

As Bharat Forge enters into formal negotiations with the Defence Ministry for ATAGS, Deputy Editor Snehesh Alex Philip speaks to former DG, Artillery Lt Gen P R Shankar (Retd) to understand where India’s artillery programme is headed.

[uddu]

Decoding The Science Behind India's Indigenous Rocket Launcher 'Pinaka'

India’s indigeneous multi-barrel rocket launcher system, the 'Pinaka' has attracted some interest lately. The French army says it is evaluating the system for potential use. Why this is significant and what's the rocket science behind it? Join News9 Plus Editor Sandeep Unnithan as he discusses this with three experts who have watched this system very closely -- Lt Gen (Retd) Ravi Shankar; former DG, Artillery, Lt Gen Sanjay Kulkarni; and Rahul Chaudhary, former CEO, TATA Strategic Electronics Division, the company that made the first 'Pinaka' launchers

[Rakesh]

CCS clears Rs 20,000 crore Make in India projects for Su-30 fighter jets, 100 K-9 howitzers
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 212193209/
12 Dec 2024

Image Source: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1867222982973890916

[ramana]

The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) selected five domestic ammunition manufacturers in 2024 to supply around 2,000 155mm terminally guided munitions (TGMs) for the Indian Army’s in-service 155mm guns of 39/45/52 caliber artillery guns. The 155mm TGM is the most advanced artillery ammunition, and its technology was not available in India in the past. The Indian-made artillery ammunition is cheaper than other global options. Each indigenously made-in-India 155mm TGM projectile costs around Rs. 80 Lakhs ($100,000), one of the cheapest globally. Typically, a Western and Russian TGM projectile costs more than double, while US-made artillery ammunition costs three times more...

Five domestic companies – state-run Munitions India Ltd and private sector companies Adani Defence Systems and Technologies Ltd (ADSTL), Bharat Forge Ltd, Economic Explosive Ltd, Premier Explosives, and SMPP Ltd have been issued Project Sanction Orders (PSOs) by Army under the industry funder Make-II procurement scheme to develop 25 rounds of 155 mm TGMs along with four fire control systems in one year and participate in the trials on a no-cost-no-commitment basis. The prototypes must have 50 percent indigenous technology. Several overseas original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) have shown interest in partnering with Indian companies to bulk-produce 155mm TGM projectiles. Amongst the OEMs that have shown interest are Nexter of France, Rosoboronexport of Russia, Nammo AS of Norway, Saab Bofors Dynamics of Sweden, Elbit Systems of Israel, Diehl Defence of Germany, Denel of South Africa, Yugoimport SDPR of Serbia, Arsenal of Bulgaria, and Raytheon/ BAE Systems Inc of the US.

[Manish_P]

...
Each indigenously made-in-India 155mm TGM projectile costs around Rs. 80 Lakhs ($100,000), one of the cheapest globally. Typically, a Western and Russian TGM projectile costs more than double, while US-made artillery ammunition costs three times more...
...

Quite costly but good bang for the buck ROI. Especially considering they are harder to intercept/jam.

Still the advent and prolific usage of cheaper (comparatively) suicide drones, like the lancet for eg, in recent wars have certainly complicated things.

Yes, it is apples vs oranges and both have the pros and cons. We need both, in good numbers. Our military planners would be thinking real hard on what would be a good balance given the budget constraints

[Prasad]

So they wont be IDDM? When there was PGK program for mortar & artillery rounds?

[srai]

^^^
All the BR forum threads point towards “MII”

Forgotten is the acronym “IDDM”

[ritesh]

...only accept a product only when they are 200% confident of the performance of the weapon system...

How would you decide if you are 100% confident of the performance of a weapons system. Genuinely asking.

Not withstanding the low sevicability of russi maal overall.

[Tanaji]

The lessons from Ukraine war are stark. Closer to home, so are the lessons from Kargil. The rate of expenditure of 155mm shells in war time is an order of magnitude higher than what we have envisaged. Current stocking is simply not enough for a high intensity 2 front conflict that we will see. Artillery still remains the cheapest way of landing ordinance on the enemy. Drones are a poor substitute and an expensive one for this.

We need to stockpile more shells, create more dumps for them, place more orders for barrels that inevitably will get chewed up.

IA artillery generals surely are aware but no orders will be placed right now. It is more advantageous to make emergency purchases….

[ramana]

...only accept a product only when they are 200% confident of the performance of the weapon system...

How would you decide if you are 100% confident of the performance of a weapons system. Genuinely asking.

When its imported maal they are 100% confident.
Even if it won't work in Indian conditions they order with 100% confidence.
The assumption is somehow foreigners are better weapon mfgs is the myth.
Ukraine war has sucked the mfg capability of both the West and Russia leaving them only desi maal which gets exported to conflict zones supposedly.
But this does not move the import bahadurs in the military.
Still order piecemeal to drive up the costs and justify imports.
Ukraine has shown the survivability of new artillery in the filed is in weeks if not months due to FPV drones.
So new procurement have to be on scale of the Soviets and US in WWII to make up for losses in a protracted war.
However they think in British terms of minuscule equipment profile.
British has broken the Nazi Enigma codes and had clear advantage.
They could do with less.
Indian military has no such advantage.

[Rakesh]

When its imported maal they are 100% confident.
Even if it won't work in Indian conditions they order with 100% confidence.
The assumption is somehow foreigners are better weapon mfgs is the myth.
Ukraine war has sucked the mfg capability of both the West and Russia leaving them only desi maal which gets exported to conflict zones supposedly.
But this does not move the import bahadurs in the military.
Still order piecemeal to drive up the costs and justify imports.
Ukraine has shown the survivability of new artillery in the filed is in weeks if not months due to FPV drones.
So new procurement have to be on scale of the Soviets and US in WWII to make up for losses in a protracted war.
However they think in British terms of minuscule equipment profile.
British has broken the Nazi Enigma codes and had clear advantage.
They could do with less.
Indian military has no such advantage.

South Korean twitter account peddling even more artillery maal from Hanwha Aerospace. This will be much to the glee of our import bahadurs.

https://x.com/mason_8718/status/1867942212270727420 ---> India's Modi government has approved the production of 100 additional Korean K9 self-propelled howitzers. It's a huge amount, but it's somewhat insufficient considering the size of the country that India has to defend. Most of the existing K9 Vajra have already been deployed near the Himalayas. Between the borders India and China. South Korea, Turkey, Poland, Finland, Estonia, India, Norway, Australia, Egypt, and Romania are the customers of K9. More superior K9A2 and K9A3 would be recommended for the next acquisition programs.

K9A2
Image Source: https://x.com/mason_8718/status/1867942904704213475



K9A3
Image Source: https://x.com/mason_8718/status/1867942904704213475

[Rakesh]

CCS clears Rs 20,000 crore Make in India projects for Su-30 fighter jets, 100 K-9 howitzers
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 212193209/
12 Dec 2024

Click on the link below to watch the video and the following tweets as well (with more videos)....

VIDEO: https://x.com/KDefenseInsight/status/18 ... 1188329744 ---> The success of the K9 Thunder is incomplete without the K10, the world's first ammunition resupply vehicle. Carrying 104 shells, it refills a K9 twice in 28 minutes — 10 times faster than manual reloading. This ensures uninterrupted firepower on the front line.

[Manish_P]

...
Ukraine has shown the survivability of new artillery in the filed is in weeks if not months due to FPV drones.
...

Absolute brutal truth. We got to witness the changed nature of ground warfare right in front of our eyes. And our foe has a huge dominance in manufacturing of drones at scale.

...
So new procurement have to be on scale of the Soviets and US in WWII to make up for losses in a protracted war.
...

Kargil itself made clear the required numbers of ammo and replacement of components like barrels. And that was a few decades ago. Before range drone warfare.

Guided Ammo is needed no doubt. But so is dumb ammo. Lots of it. At least exports are helping our orgs keep churning them out

[Kartik]

Army has already tested the 105mm Garuda from Bharat Forge by para dropping it from a C-17 and having it ready to fire in 3 minutes!

Twitter link

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1870067105334505791 ---> Defence Ministry inks Rs 7,628 crore contract with Larsen & Toubro for procurement of another 100 155 mm/52 calibre K-9 VAJRA-T self-propelled tracked artillery guns for the Army.

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1870094798084026572 ---> The 100 new K-9 Vajra-T guns, with a strike range of 28-38 km, will add to the 100 such 155mm/52-calibre guns already inducted by the Army under a Rs 4,366 crore deal inked in May 2017.