Indian Multi-Role Helicopter: News & Discussion: 06 Feb 2021

[Cybaru]

Good to see a 2500-3200 SHP engine being worked on! It will have really good high altitude parameters!

Good stuff!

[Prem Kumar]

I sound like a broken record, but we need to get this idea into the heads of PM & RM. Just like PLI for electronics, National Semiconductor Mission, Supercomputing & Quantum Computing missions, we need a National Engine Mission

Engines are the prime-movers. We should start with Jet Engines for our fighters. But eventually, we need to make ALL sorts of powerplants indigenously - from those for cars, trucks, tractors to marine engines to Wankel & other UAV engines to Jet Engines

[Kartik]

From Janes

HAL SAFHAL sign contract to develop new engine for heavy lift helicopter

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) announced it has signed a contract to develop and produce a new powerplant for its Indian Multi Role Helicopter (IMRH) programme.

According to HAL, it signed an “airframer contract” with SAFHAL Helicopter Engines Pvt Ltd. SAFHAL is an HAL and Safran Helicopter Engines SAS joint venture formalised in November 2023 to design, develop, produce, sell, and support the new engine, according to HAL.

The contract covers the commencement of the “joint design, development, manufacture, supply, and support of a new-generation high-power engine” for the 13- to 14-tonne IMRH and its planned naval counterpart, the Deck-Based Multi-Role Helicopter (DBMRH), HAL said in a statement on 30 August.

The new contract follows a July 2022 memorandum of understanding (MOU) that both companies signed to co-develop the new engine for the IMRH. HAL has now named the new powerplant Aravalli.

Under the conditions of the contract, SAFHAL will work with its parent companies on engine technologies to ensure the development of a powerplant with the required “performance, reliability, and operational efficiency”, HAL said.

Janes earlier reported that HAL expects development of the engine to take at least 48 months following the signing of the contract and that project completion is likely to require 60 months. HAL also previously told Janes that the new engine could be based on Safran's Aneto engine family. The Aneto engine family is designed for medium and heavy helicopters and can deliver take-off power ranging from 2,500 to 3,000 shp.
..

[Rakesh]

HAL and SAFHAL Partnership: Advancing India’s Aerospace Industry
https://ensembleias.com/hal-and-safhal/

[dinesh_kimar]

^ While HAL has tied up for engine, which is a good step towards risk mitigation, some points to ponder.

- Livefist has information on the IMRH, an article dated 2010.
- In 2023, HAL made a presentation of IMRH (Aero India?), and stated Design Work is completed by 2030 (6-7 years).
- The planning and intent is very poor. Risk mitigation should hv been done with Eurocopter and Safran as full partners in 2010-2014 timeline, and funds given (same as S.Korea route with their local Puma class helo).
- By now, 15 years later in 2025, a 40-60% indigenised bird would have flown and limited series, Armed Forces orders,etc. would have followed.

- Today, they are planning a new engine ANETO, which will require 8-10 years of development to iron out the kinks.
( Makila, though old, can give 1700-2000 shp, it's good and reliable, a known beast. Used for Puma, Caracal,etc.).

- They need a heavier body for a Mi-17 class helo. So, weight optimisation , selection of materials, crash worthiness,etc. has to be done. This is actually possible by HAL, but they take more time than Western Company.

- The Control systems and Main Gear Box. HAL will take 10-15 years to crack it, it's complex. This is the heart of the helicopter.

- The accessories- landing gear, the Electrical supply, the starter motor and APU, oil pumps, hydraulic systems, winch, etc.,etc. have to be initially catered for by Western Company, as was done / still done on Dhruv. Indigenisation will follow slowly.

- HAL should have taken a leaf from the S.Korean/ Japan route, who are actually very experienced in Mfg. Process and Indegenisation.

- Today, HAL has started indegenisation of Safran engines, which is basically what the HTSE 1200 KW is all about.
- The path forward is difficult, complicated. Their route to go it alone means we are looking at timelines 20-25 years from now. Main Gear Box takes 10 years by itself, when done first time- split torque gears and face width optimisation, materials, dry run without lubricant at full power for 30 minutes, etc.

( Make no mistake, if HAL had finished crash worthiness testing, designed landing gear, Main Gear box , etc., they would have informed everyone, as was done for similar work with Dhruv/ LUH. Their silence means work is still on-going or worse, has not yet started.)


When Japanese do indegenisation of complex projects, their planning is much better. The goals are somewhat like this:

- Introduce a similar class system, 1-2 generation behind state of the art, but built locally.
- Design the system and understand how it functions, what are its requirements.
- Create the ability to manufacture this system locally
- Train the manpower to Design, Manufacture, Service and Operate the system.

I have not seen such intent with HAL. They are eager to move on to new toys (IMRH), instead of improving the Dhruv, which has again been grounded as we speak.

[dinesh_kimar]

^ to continue:
When Japan understands the above 4 points well, they make small innovations which improve the performance
( Kaizen).

They recently had a hybrid propulsion module for their Navy Frigate/Destroyer in place of GE LM2500.

They swapped in 2 diesel generators, (2 x 17 MW) made locally by IHI and Mitsubishi, and also licensed from MAN ( different versions). They put in a Rolls Royce MT-30 compact gas turbine.They generated 70 MW total power.

- High Power achieved 70 MW better than some aircraft carriers.
- Worlds first hybrid propulsion for naval ship.
- System fully designed and fitted in Japan, bulk of power produced by Japanese component.
- No GE involvement
- One imported component MT-30 gas turbine from Rolls Royce.

In future, the Japanese will make this system work well, and localise the single MT-30 turbine with their local version, a development of F-9 gas turbine.

GE will not longer have a stranglehold on the Japanese Navy in future, due to the LM 2500.

Compare their efforts to our supply issues with another GE product, for LCA.

[dinesh_kimar]

Chinese Govt. had planned an IMRH class helicopter.

This is how they implemented it:

1. Z-20 helicopter with design inputs of in-service S-70 helicopters from USA.

2.Mi-17 helicopter manufactured locally in joint venture since 2008. ( Remember we bought 80+50 Mi-17 off-the-shelf with no local mfg. during same time frame).

3. Their Changhe Z-8 helicopter , an old collaboration of the Super Frelon ,was continued. They modified it to new version Z-18, as a Carrier borne AEW helo + a regular cargo with 4 ton underslung capability. It is a sub optimal helicopter not used anywhere else, but they pressed it into service on their carriers, no SH-60 Romeo for them, no waiting for uber Z-20 to arrive. Existing platform has many advantages, such as short induction time and lesser costs, they can field something on their platforms and Commanders can fire back ( Like Our Scorpene with Type 209 torpedo). When the Z-20 carrier version arrives after 2025-26, they will induct it into service. By then, the Z-18 would have done 10-11 years of service as an AEW, can give valuable data, avoid common mistakes, etc.
4. H-175 Joint Venture with Eurocopter for medium helicopter . This is civil version, some Navy sales as a liaison Helo may be planned.

The Chinese typically do multiple joint ventures for complex projects, as seen here as well as in Bullet Train manufacturing.

This is a risk mitigation step, the JV partner knows that other options are available, they cannot play the fool. It is a costlier approach (5-10 X the price of single helicopter), but has advantages as well, design inputs of different manufacturers, access to Aviation Standards and Testing methods, etc.

It's a long game played by other countries. Here, our leadership and vision are severely missing.

The Indian Mi-17 order for 120 helos should have been made in-house with 40-50 % TOT and full MRO capability in India itself.( As indeed the recent orders for 1000 Airbus A-320 aircraft).

HAL was stretched with existing projects, the Pvt.Players can be roped in, IAF BRDs,etc. There is no shortage of manpower, trained engineers,etc, as seen by Tata JVs with Airbus.

Somehow, we are led up the garden path time and again.

[pravula]

No money, nothing happens. Where is the funding for these high risk projects?

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1889344807967080842 ---> The Aravalli has been selected to power the IMRH (Indian Multi-Role Helicopter), a new 13-ton multi-role helicopter designed by HAL to meet the needs of the Indian armed forces. A naval version, the 12.5-tonne DBMRH (Deck-Based Multi-Role Helicopter), is also being developed for the Indian Navy. Named after the mountain range Aravalli in north-west India, this perpetuates a tradition of naming helicopter engines from Safran after mountains, peaks or lakes, and symbolizes a high point in the partnership between Safran and HAL.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1889345925593874764 ---> SAFRAN and HAL unveiled the new Aravali engine at Aero India 2025, which was developed within the SAFHAL joint venture. The engine will develop between 3,500 to 4,000 shp and power the IMRH and DBMRH helicopters under development.