Project 75I - It Begins

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Rakesh
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

The Scorpene line has been idle since 2022. Naval Group has been repeatedly pressing the Indian Navy to build more Scorpenes since 2013. The first of the three new Scorpenes will arrive only in 6 years. Let all this sink in.

This is sheer criminality from every stakeholder (PMO, Babus, MoD and the Indian Navy) involved in the decision making. The same navy that cries hoarse about the dwindling submarine arm, runs a never ending contest to get the latest and greatest boat.

Shame on the stakeholders if they go in for the TKMS boat or the Navantia boat. Both are equally tragic, but for different reasons.

If the Chief is so confident that the pair of SSNs will arrive on time and the project is proven to date, this same Navy could not come up with a follow on Improved Scorpene design?

Absolutely they could and they even did. That is exactly what the three new Scorpenes are. Increased local content and with DRDO AIP.

But Import, Import, Import….that is all these stakeholders want to do. Shame!!!!
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by A Deshmukh »

Only justification for German or Spanish submarine lines is that the leaks undermine the whole Scorpene fleet.

Then why 3 additional Scorpenes with DRDO AIP - I look at them as test beds to trial out the AIP and improve upon.
That would be fastest way to get DRDO AIP underwater for prolonged periods and mature the technology.
Why 3? not clear.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by williams »

Indian Navy hopes to sign Rs 90,000 crore deals for 26 Rafale, 3 Scorpene submarines by next month

Works out to 10.6 billion USD. That is quite cheaper than 8.8 billion USD for 32 AF Rafales if you include 3 Scorpenes. May be that is why 3 Scorpenes?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Aditya_V »

williams wrote: 03 Dec 2024 10:38 Indian Navy hopes to sign Rs 90,000 crore deals for 26 Rafale, 3 Scorpene submarines by next month

Works out to 10.6 billion USD. That is quite cheaper than 8.8 billion USD for 32 AF Rafales if you include 3 Scorpenes. May be that is why 3 Scorpenes?
Given we have 6 scorpenes where we are going to DRDO AIP, this makes the perfect sense to order 3 More Scorpenes to be built by MDL, plus Shakti Engines. Only with USD 30 -40 Billion at Stake you can expect France to share some Jet technology. it is pocket Change to Uncle Huge MIC and the Russians also dont seem to want to part with core tech. But for France at this point of time it could force them to help us uncover some key parts of the puzzle.

We have to keep fitting pieces of the puzzle with our own R&D, production factories etc and somewhere and still get some key tech.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by williams »

A Deshmukh wrote: 03 Dec 2024 09:22 Only justification for German or Spanish submarine lines is that the leaks undermine the whole Scorpene fleet.

Then why 3 additional Scorpenes with DRDO AIP - I look at them as test beds to trial out the AIP and improve upon.
That would be fastest way to get DRDO AIP underwater for prolonged periods and mature the technology.
Why 3? not clear.
In 2021 itself DRDO AIP was reported as ready for fitment and the news was they could be retrofitted during the midlife upgrade of all these boats. Perhaps it is easier to fit them in the new ones. It seems there is a huge gap between planning and execution of these projects. However, it is better news than no news.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by fanne »

Wasn’t it supposed to be fit in kilo class sub first. A kilo class sub was promptly retired for that purpose (sindhudhwaj).if I read between the lines, drdo aip is either facing issues or is not fully qualified (having been tested or retrofitted with sindhudhawaj).
And any defect in aip can sink the whole submarine with 0 hope of rescuing the crew. So caution and thorough testing is needed.
Read this with the news that France is ready to help integrated drdo aip with scorpene, perhaps double speak for helping it first with kilo.

Only thing is these things take time. Drdo is not God that whatever it has designed or build will automatically work in the first go. Most likely it will not, it will be slower and riskier than other established players. Not because of incompetence, but natural order of things, drdo aip is some distance away.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Fanne, the same issue exists with the AIP on the Type 212CD. Not a single Type 212CD exists and that too in the tonnage size that the Indian Navy wants. The AIP shown - by TKMS - to the Indian Navy evaluators was on an older and smaller boat. To date, their AIP system has yet to be proven on the Type 212CD. So while they have ample experience with AIP systems, their work around solution was found acceptable to the Indian Navy.

This same work around solution exists with the DRDO AIP. The design has been proven on land and now will be tested on an actual boat. It was Naval Group who did not want to incorporate the DRDO AIP on to the Kalvari Class, but they are now agreeing to do this. This clearly indicates that the desi AIP system performs as designed and to their satisfaction. This is an important point, because they are an established submarine manufacturer.

If the first of three new Scorpenes will take 6 years to arrive, imagine how long it will take the first P-75I boat to arrive.

Does the Indian Navy have time for this?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Kartik »

The timing is extremely important, given that the system on offer to the IN is going to be almost the same as what has been integrated to the S-80 Plus submarine of the Spanish Navy.

Navantia completes installation of first AIP system on board a S-80 Plus class submarine
Navantia has completed installation of the first hydrogen-based air-independent propulsion (AIP) system on board a Spanish Navy S-80 Plus-class diesel-electric attack submarine (SSK).

A ceremony to mark the milestone was held at Navantia's shipyard in Cartagena, southern Spain, on 26 November, the shipbuilder confirmed the same day.

The AIP system, commercially named Bio-Ethanol Stealth Technology (BEST) by Navantia, is based on bioethanol reforming technology and will provide the Spanish Navy's new submarines with the capability to remain submerged for up to three weeks.

Developed by Navantia in partnership with the Spanish Navy, US company Collins Aerospace, and local partners Abengoa and Bionet, it belongs to the third generation of AIP systems that use hydrogen produced on board from a fuel – agricultural bioethanol in this case – as required instead of pure stored hydrogen for their operation. Navantia has championed the use of bioethanol – a renewable fuel obtained from organic feedstock – as a source of hydrogen because it is readily available worldwide, is cost-efficient, does not require special infrastructure, and is safe.

BEST-AIP components
The BEST-AIP system comprises three main components: a miniature bioethanol reformer (developed by Abengoa); a 300 kW militarised proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell (supplied by Collins Aerospace); and a carbon dioxide disposal system (developed by Bionet).
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Aditya_V »

Maybe I am ignorant but DRDO developed fuel cells can produce far more energy than the bioethonal AIP which restricts a sub to very slow speeds.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 06 Dec 2024 22:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by maitya »

Aditya_V wrote: 06 Dec 2024 19:02 Maybe I am ignoran but DRDO is fuel cell which can produce far more energy than the bioethonal AIP which restricts a sub to very slow speeds.
Well, it's confusing as hell , for sure:
TKMS is offering it's so-called 4th Generation Fuel Cell (FC4G), also known as the Advanced Submarine Fuel Cell (ASFC), that is rated at 320KW.
(actually it's modular, with each module rated at 80KW (2 x 40KW FC stack) - and 4 of them can be used at max)
However do note, the "operational" FCAIP that was demonstrated to Navy, was on an existing operational boat - which would mean, most probably a 214-type, which in turn means BZM120 based 240KW (120KW x 2) AIP system.

In contrast, the S-80 is supposed to include a 300 KW FC AIP system via it's Bio-Ethanol Stealth Technology (BEST).

The DRDO PAFC based FCAIP is currently at 324KW (13.5KW x 24 cell stack).

So, prima facie, all 3 are comparable (320KW vs 300KW vs 324KW) wrt their claimed max power output levels - and thus their respective submerged displacements*, would determine each of these boats effectiveness (in terms of underwater endurance etc).
(*both S80 and 212CD-variant would be in 3K Ton level, while the upgraded-Kalvaris would be around 2.2K-2.5K Ton, incl the FCAIP plug)

However it is being reported that an upgrade program is in place, to scale it up, first to 15.5KW/cell, and then, ostensibly for the P76 program, eventually to a whooping 20KW/cell.
So if we are to assume that this upgraded 15.5KW/cell modules are for the P75/Kalveri class, then its max FCAIP rating would go to 372KW.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by maitya »

More delays for Project 75I: AIP Dilemma – Stuck Between Germany and Spain

Some very valid points made in this article:
...
According to sources in the defence and security establishment, the outcomes of the trials carried out earlier this year are being reviewed again. “This means that the Project-75I will get delayed further,” they added.
...
An AIP system must be evaluated based on its at-sea performance and engineering reliability—key factors like MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) and other operational parameters that emerge only through real-world testing,” he notes.
...
“An AIP system that has undergone real-world testing offers valuable data for comparison. The Spanish system, for instance, uses bioethanol technology, while the German system has been tested in smaller boats but has not yet been applied to the larger, more complex submarines that India requires.”
...
Remember none of the FCAIP system on offer, are operational yet, so there are no real-world performance data to make a technical down-select - will have to base decision on forecasted perf parameters, or wait out for these systems to be operational first, and get the real-world data collected and anlysed.

No easy solution ...

====================================================================================================================
Added Later: The following point that Rakeshji made in the previous page, makes this whole tamasha more stark:
...
If this is not hypocrisy, I do not know what else can be. DRDO AIP is not proven, so we want foreign AIP. But one of the foreign AIP systems is also not proven, but it is foreign. So that is okay. Import Pasand? You bet it is.
...
The only quibble, in the above is - it's not one of the foreign AIP systems, that is not proven, but it's *BOTH* the foreign FCAIP systems on offer, that are not proven yet (and so is the one from DRDO) ...
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by wig »

India’s ambitious $6 billion submarine building plan stalls after sea tests
https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/topstor ... r-AA1vMPrq
13 Dec 2024

extracts
India’s $6 billion plan to build submarines has stalled because of contractor complaints over whether proper procedures were followed during tests at sea, delaying the navy’s efforts to bolster its capabilities as China expands its presence in the Indian Ocean.
The South Asian nation’s bid to build six conventional diesel-electric subs is now delayed by a year and further delays are expected, according to two senior officials direct aware of the situation who asked not be identified because the information isn’t public.
objections by local contractors
German defense manufacturer ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, in partnership with India’s state shipyard Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd., and private shipbuilder Larsen & Toubro Ltd. with Spain’s Navantia SA, are competing for the project.

About a half-dozen objections were raised by local contractors as the navy came close to picking a winner following crucial field trials in June of some of the key technologies needed for the subs, the people said, without naming the companies involved. Each objection will need to be investigated before the process can proceed.
Complaints ranged from alleged violations of proper procedures to unclear guidance about how to conduct the sea trials, the people said. The nature and timing of the complaints raise questions about whether contractors are trying to stall the project because they fear losing out, the people added.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Navantia is the one complaining... :mrgreen:
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Boost to the Indian Navy's desire for the Type 212CD boat ---> viewtopic.php?p=2636282#p2636282
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

X-Post from the Naval Procurements & Acquisitions thread...
Rakesh wrote: 30 Dec 2024 18:38 MoD inks Rs 1,990 crore contract with MDL
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2088874
30 Dec 2024

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1873710776403566989 ---> The AIP marks a culmination of a long journey for DRDO & L&T against heavy odds, a different tech from other OEMs, developed completely in house. The electrical torpedo, likely a variant of NSTL Takshak, fiber optic/RLG-INS guided, extended range unit. Trials are underway.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1873700484110025006 ---> Very significant. Both the DRDO developed Air-Independent Propulsion System and the contemporary 'Electronic Heavy Weight Torpedo' have been ordered as part of the Kalvari Class (Scorpene) upgrade path.
https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1873707347211931995 ---> The AIP is there. The materials are there. The sensors are there. The combat management system is there. The weapons are there. It is time for India to seriously embark on the development of an indigenous diesel-electric submarine.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by srai »

^^^
India should have ordered 6 follow-on Scorpene SSKs with higher indigenous content.

Those then would have been the ideal step taken towards indigenous SSK. Some foreign design consultancy/collaboration could have been sought after for this purpose instead of license production path.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Yagnasri »

They ordered or plan to order just 3 Kalvari class ones with AIP. Not 6.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

srai wrote: 30 Dec 2024 23:24 ^^^
India should have ordered 6 follow-on Scorpene SSKs with higher indigenous content.

Those then would have been the ideal step taken towards indigenous SSK. Some foreign design consultancy/collaboration could have been sought after for this purpose instead of license production path.
OEM will not agree to consultancy/collaboration without a sizeable order first i.e. Project 75I. We have to go at it alone. Even ordering 6 follow-on Scorpenes from Naval Group will likely not make them budge.

What the game changer between the AIP-equipped Kalvari Class and the S-80 Plus Class from Navantia is a mystery. Six more Scorpenes makes ample sense at this moment.

https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1873729647567147308 ---> + order 3 more P-75 with DRDO AIP from Day 1. Can P-75I officially. Sanction P-76 ASAP. Full investment and attention on SSNs. Indian Navy's sub problem can be resolved within 15 years largely.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_P »

^ from the above linked article
The L&T and its partner had showcased the functioning of its critical Air Independent Propulsion system in Spain to the Indian Navy team there on shore but the Indian Navy demanded a sea-proven system in its requirements in the tender document.
Why were they allowed to submit a tender if the IN had clearly specified a proven system?

Anyway now there is only Mazagaon Dockyard and ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems left. Hopefully we can move forward quickly

PS: i hope the L&T chairman doesnt use this loss to get his employees put in 90hrs week :mrgreen:

Added : A question, does it become a single vendor thing if one vendor is disqualified ?
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

44 Years Later, India Chooses German U-Boats Again
https://www.livefistdefence.com/44-year ... ats-again/
23 Jan 2025

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Ministry of Defence moves ahead with submarine plan, MDL qualifies for next round
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 465649.cms
23 Jan 2025
The defence ministry is progressing with a multi-billion dollar initiative to construct next-generation submarines in India. Mazagaon Dockyards Limited, along with Germany's TKMS, has advanced to the commercial negotiation stage for the ₹43,000 crore project. The new submarines, featuring air-independent propulsion systems, are expected to be operational within seven years after contract signing.
https://x.com/manupubby/status/1882367020651733420 ---> MDL confirms the ET story today on progress in the P 75I contract for six new submarines. Will be the biggest single contract awarded to MDL if the process goes through. However, tough commercial negotiations ahead.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote: 23 Jan 2025 11:53Why were they allowed to submit a tender if the IN had clearly specified a proven system?
Navantia was just there to avoid single vendor situation. The Indian Navy had the final say. They wanted the TKMS boat, based on their experience with the HDW 209, Type 1500 boat. All four of them are still in service, which speaks volumes of the build quality of the German boat.

This is going to be uber expensive, but the navy wants the latest and greatest. The irony and hypocrisy of the Navy's choice is that the AIP on the TKMS boat does not exist either! It exists only in theory, as there is no AIP system that powers a boat with the displacement specified in the P-75I contest. The Navy was shown an AIP system on a Type 212 boat I believe and they were told that it could be scaled up. How is this proven?

Expect long technical delays, just like with the Project 75 (Kalvari) Class program. Delays will be measured in decades i.e. the first P-75 boat was expected to be commissioned in 2012 and the last one in 2017. What occurred was that the first boat was commissioned in 2017 and the last one in 2025. This is the price you pay for latest and greatest.
Manish_P wrote: 23 Jan 2025 11:53Anyway now there is only Mazagaon Dockyard and ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems left. Hopefully we can move forward quickly.
Now contract negotiations will begin with TKMS and the Navy's house of cards could fall down at this stage. Navantia is not going down with a fight. Will have to wait and see how Navantia is going to play this. I doubt they will go down quietly.
Manish_P wrote: 23 Jan 2025 11:53Added : A question, does it become a single vendor thing if one vendor is disqualified ?
Remember the recent F-18SH vs Rafale M contest? The former clearly lost, much to the chagrin of the MUTU dalals on BRF and on twitter. But evaluation trials were conducted and reported & documented widely by the media. Boeing was so confident that they were going to win, that they were resorting to outright lies about the Rafale M. However the arrestor gear on INS Vikrant threw cold water on Boeing's plans.

The Indian Navy has made the technical selection in the P-75I contest and now is when the MoD will step in, to negotiate with TKMS. The service has to first make the technical down select, before the MoD commences its job i.e. contract negotiations. This is what the American apologists (like Ashley Tellis and others) can never seem to (or want to!) understand. I believe single vendor situation is that it only arises when there is one vendor for the service to choose from. That is not the case here.

See all the recent prior contests, in which at least two contestants participated;

• Chinook vs Mi-26
• Apache vs Mi-28
• C-17 vs IL-76
• P-8I vs A320MPA (I believe that was the platform)
• F-18SH vs Rafale M
• Rafale C/B vs Eurofighter Typhoon

In the last one, both won the technical down select (27 April 2011), but Dassault took home the red rose (31 Jan 2012).
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

I think this is a good thing considering. 3 Kalvari plus and these German boats will keep the line humming for a few years. I have a strong feeling that L&T will be back in the fray for Project 76 with their experience building the Arihant and the 'purported' SSN Fleet. By 2030 hopefully we will hear of the 'Indian' AIP sub.

We shall effectively have two conventional lines and one nuclear line for manufacturing.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Indeed, L&T will be back. They are going to be busy with the Arihant Class' successor (the S5 Class), the Project 77 SSN and likely Project 76.

MDL built the last pair of HDW 209, Type 1500 boats. They are also built the six Scorpene boats + will build the three follow-on Scorpene boats. From the Navy's standpoint, awarding MDL the contract is a sign of confidence and continuity.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 23 Jan 2025 19:44 Navantia was just there to avoid single vendor situation. The Indian Navy had the final say. They wanted the TKMS boat, based on their experience with the HDW 209, Type 1500 boat. All four of them are still in service, which speaks volumes of the build quality of the German boat.
So the match was 'fixed'
Rakesh wrote: 23 Jan 2025 19:44The irony and hypocrisy of the Navy's choice is that the AIP on the TKMS boat does not exist either! It exists only in theory, as there is no AIP system that powers a boat with the displacement specified in the P-75I contest. The Navy was shown an AIP system on a Type 212 boat I believe and they were told that it could be scaled up. How is this proven?
Oh
Rakesh wrote: 23 Jan 2025 19:44 Navantia is not going down with a fight. Will have to wait and see how Navantia is going to play this. I doubt they will go down quietly...
exactamente, Senor!

They will use their agents (in our system) to raise a stink - 'single vendor scenario', 'bribe'... maybe even rope in the clown prince.
Rakesh wrote: 23 Jan 2025 19:44 I believe single vendor situation is that it only arises when there is one vendor for the service to choose from. That is not the case here.
But, as you mention, the German product is also not 'sea proven'. So they risk getting disqualified too.... unless it is like 'hey the GE-404 is proven, so probably the GE-414 will be good as well'

Sigh.. I fear a long delay unless it's goes the route of the Sarkar-to-Sarkar deal
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote: 23 Jan 2025 20:46 So the match was 'fixed'
Remember when TKMS earlier walked out of the P-75I contest? :)

Find out who had meeting with TKMS post walkout.
Manish_P wrote: 23 Jan 2025 20:46exactamente, Senor!

They will use their agents (in our system) to raise a stink - 'single vendor scenario', 'bribe'... maybe even rope in the clown prince.
Clown prince is ever eager to undermine India's national security.

And then on BRF we have the clown prince's mini-me who stated that RaGa is doing India a great service by raking up the Rafale issue :roll:
Manish_P wrote: 23 Jan 2025 20:46Sigh.. I fear a long delay unless it's goes the route of the Sarkar-to-Sarkar deal
Severely delayed. Get ready for that! But it is imported, so all izz well.

They should have just built six more Scorpenes (instead of three) and then moved on to the P-76 program.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Defence Ministry finds L&T proposal non-compliant in Rs 70,000 crore submarine deal
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 122221402/
22 January 2025

===========================================

Centre okays Mazagon Dock & German maker Thyssenkrupp’s bid for multi-billion dollar submarine deal
https://theprint.in/defence/centre-okay ... l/2458495/
23 January 2025

^^^ from the above article....
...will see TKMS design a whole new submarine to cater to Indian requirements.
So much for proven AIP. The sheer hypocrisy!
The design will be given to the Indian Navy, which will then use it to make their own indigenous submarine under Project 76.
Oh please, the Germans ain't going to give you squat. But let's peddle that lie to the Indian citizenry.

This was the same lie that was peddled when the Project 75 (Kalvari) Class program was launched. The French gave us zilch of value.
The first submarine under P75I is to be delivered in 7 years from the date of signing the contract. So, if a contract is inked tomorrow, the first submarine would come earliest by 2032.
Expect first boat by 2039 at the earliest. But since this is an import, no one will complain about delays. Complaining is only there for local maal.
But TKMS had a proven AIP system fitted in over 60 Type 214 submarines, though its size and capacity were smaller than what the Indian Navy requires. Since it was a proven system, sources said, the company only needed to scale it up to meet the Indian Navy’s requirement for a 3,000-tonne displacement rather than the 2,100-tonne displacement of Type 214.
Just as I mentioned in my previous post above ---> viewtopic.php?p=2638005#p2638005

When scaling up of this AIP system occurs and technical issues arise (and they will!), who will take responsibility for the delay? Rhetorical question, as that concept does not exist onlee!

By the way, there is a grand total of 16 Type 214 boats worldwide, not 60! :lol: When peddling the value of phoren maal, a simple google search would greatly help.
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1882279902189396402 ---> Given that the seemingly 'ever troubled' P-75I submarine acquisition tender has reportedly become a single-vendor situation, here is the case for embarking on an indigenous diesel-electric development programme without delay.

Episode 26: Indigenization Appreciation Hour with Saurav Jha
03 January 2025: Domestic Diesel Electric Submarines


India's sixth and final Scorpene Class submarine will be delivered to the Indian Navy on January 15th. What is the way forward for the Navy's submarine fleet? Will Project P-75I fructify? What of indigenous efforts towards conventional submarine prowess aka project P-76? Catch us live tonight as we discuss India's submarine building program.

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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 23 Jan 2025 19:29 44 Years Later, India Chooses German U-Boats Again
https://www.livefistdefence.com/44-year ... ats-again/
23 Jan 2025
https://x.com/RupakChatto/status/1882413064127152305 ---> Big story is that even after 44 years of "tech transfer" India still imports submarines. A real scam on the taxpayers.
Rakesh wrote: 23 Jan 2025 20:56
Centre okays Mazagon Dock & German maker Thyssenkrupp’s bid for multi-billion dollar submarine deal
https://theprint.in/defence/centre-okay ... l/2458495/
23 January 2025

The design will be given to the Indian Navy, which will then use it to make their own indigenous submarine under Project 76.
Oh please, the Germans ain't going to give you squat. But let's peddle that lie to the Indian citizenry.

This was the same lie that was peddled when the Project 75 (Kalvari) Class program was launched. The French gave us zilch of value.
https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1882453513667826130 ---> Famous ToT claim. Pulled on Indian taxpayers since time immemorial.
Manish_P
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_P »

Well hope the germans don't 'leak' the sub secrets like the frenchies did.
drnayar
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by drnayar »

Manish_P wrote: 23 Jan 2025 23:06 Well hope the germans don't 'leak' the sub secrets like the frenchies did.
They did before through South Africa.

https://www.millenniumpost.in/german-hd ... how-159536

In the mid-1980s, under Rajiv Gandhi’s Prime Ministership, the German technology to build HDW submarines, also in the Mazagon Docks, which India purchased at huge cost those days, was reported as “already sold and transferred” with other sensitive documents to South Africa. The HDW submarine deal caused a huge embarrassment to Rajiv Gandhi and his government not for the know-how leak alone, but also for a kickback allegedly received by those involved in the purchase deal, including the Prime Minister. Tragically, the government said it was unaware of both the developments before they were exposed by the overseas media.

The HDW, a German concern, not only gave South Africa blueprints of the submarines it had sold to India, but also some "sensitive details" which compromised India's security as well. This was part of its deal with South Africa, signed on June 15, 1984. It was reported that on November 22, 1989, under specific instructions from the Rajiv Gandhi government, the Indian delegation to the 63rd meeting of the United Nations General Assembly abstained in a vote that retained a condemnatory reference to the West German firms and to West Germany in connection with the supply to South Africa of blueprints for the manufacture of submarines and other related military material. The abstention came on a motion related to the UN General Assembly resolution A/44/L. 34/rev.1 entitled "Military collaboration with South Africa".
Rakesh
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote: 23 Jan 2025 23:06 Well hope the germans don't 'leak' the sub secrets like the frenchies did.
If it does leak secrets, then the Navy can launch Project 76 as a final ToT venture with a foreign OEM to build new generation SSK :mrgreen:

Rinse and repeat same strategy for eternity.
Manish_P
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_P »

drnayar wrote: 24 Jan 2025 03:02 ....
They did before through South Africa.
....
Proven ToT
A Deshmukh
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by A Deshmukh »

TKM (and Germany) is not in good state financially.
We should be able to negotiate from position of strength (they need us more than we do them).
Maybe a controlling stake in TKM and shared IP of all technologies?

Technologywise, it will be good hedge.
Scorpene (with unvalidated DRDO AIP) in parallel to HDW AIP.

seems like we will have multiple submarine manufacturing lines
Scorpene, HDW, SSN, SSBN, L&T (smaller, midget, UUWV).
In another decade we will be a major powerhouse and exporting submarines all over.
Manish_P
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Manish_P »

I can't find the Rants thread so posting this here.

(apologies for the large image.. Mods pls. remove if intrusive.)

Image
SRajesh
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by SRajesh »

^^^ Saar
This is our own making.
There is no point in blaming the 'Bean Counter' all the time.
People who travel in Cars with two or three 'Star' on the nameplate are equally responsible.
There was a line in Ram Teri Ganga Maili (by Raza Murad though crass and suggestive here it sits apt):
Yeh to Behti Ganga Hai Jitni Chahiye Dubki Lijiye!!
Rakesh
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Re: Project 75I - It Begins

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy’s P75(I) submarine program progresses
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... rogresses/
29 Jan 2025
TKMS has announced that its partner, Mazagon Dockyard Ltd. (MDL), has informed the company that their joint bid for the P75(I) project—comprising six conventional submarines—has been deemed compliant by the Indian Ministry of Defence and is now progressing to the next stage of evaluation.
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