Project 75I - It Begins

[maitya]

A thought:
Since we're going to throw-in substantial amounts (INR48K Cr has now become INR70K Cr etc, is it?) to stand-up this ToT (whatever that means) and license manufacture of these 6 boats, why is it so difficult for the MoD to demand that TKMS does dual-track parallel ToT for:
1) for a 4 boat build program to MDL (similar to what TKMS has agreed for the Typ2-212CD class for the Norwegian Navy program)
2) for 2 boat parallel build program to L&T (provided L&T match the MDL quote of per boat cost)
3) plus an option of 2 more boats to whoever hands-over their first 2 boats first to IN
(ofcourse with a measurable demonstration of a set-target (say 60%) indigenization content at the end of their 2nd boat builds)

That will squeeze in the overall timelines, though by not very much - as the lead time to build the first boat is abnormally long (compared to the entire program). But it will also mitigate the risk of ToT absorption etc and build the relevant submarine building tech indigenization.

Ofcourse, L&T can always decline the offer, in which case, it's back to where it's currently anyway ...

[Rakesh]

Sijree, this same thing can be done with the Scorpene program, of which a trained workforce exists in India.

MDL will already be building three improved Scorpenes, just convert that into a six-build program and call it Project 75I. The first Project 75 (Kalvari Class) boat will already be undergoing a refit with the DRDO AIP plug. Just work with that.

Why we need to waste 70K Crore or even 48K Crore with TKMS? If the Navantia boat (S-80 Plus SSK) can participate in the P-75I contest, then what exactly will the three new improved Scorpenes not have vis-à-vis the S-80 Plus SSK? In the same vein, what will the six Project 75 (Kalvari Class) boats not have vis-à-vis the S-80 Plus SSK...post their MLU refit with the DRDO AIP plug?

And give L&T a six build program for Project 76 (larger boat i.e. Ocean Going SSK*). We can do this in India, with what we have. Best is the enemy of Good Enough! What is this fascination with the Type 212CD?

*A marketing term to convince gullible navies who cannot afford a SSN program.

[maitya]

Sijree, this same thing can be done with the Scorpene program, of which a trained workforce exists in India.

MDL will already be building three improved Scorpenes, just convert that into a six-build program and call it Project 75I. The first Project 75 boat will already be undergoing a refit with the DRDO AIP plug. Just work with that.

Why we need to waste 70K Crore or even 48K Crore with TKMS? If the Navantia boat (S-80 Plus SSK) can participate in the P-75I contest, then what exactly will the three new improved Scorpenes not have? In the same vein, what will the six Project 75 (Kalvari Class) boats not have...post their MLU refit with the DRDO AIP plug?

And give L&T a six build program for Project 76. We can do this in India, with what we have. Best is the enemy of Good Enough!

Well, what if this 75I tamasha fails in the price-negotiation stage itself?
Also, I have a feeling, and can be wrong as well, that TKMS will renege majorly on the ToT aspects in a few years time - creating another impasse, spending some more years resolving it, if at all.

So, I think, either 4+2 P-75I split, or maybe, it'd be better to convert the 3 more Scorpene deal with MDL to 3 MDL + 3 L&T parallel-build deal with Scorpene - and let P76 go to whoever wins it (or even that can be split between MDL and L&T).

Any which way, none of these approaches will be any less costly or anything ...
Schedule/Timelines are of crucial importance ... we are destined to spend obscene amounts, due to our procrastination and decision-making-paralysis, so why not atleast mitigate one of the dimensions (schedule) atleast?

[Rakesh]

I *REALLY* and *SINCERELY* hope the TKMS acquisition fails spectacularly in the price negotiation stage. That program needs to crash and burn just like the 65K IAC-2 super carrier program. The PMO needs to step in and put an end to the Navy's fantasy.

MDL and L&T are capable and proven to develop submarines. MoD needs to stop giving excuses that the Naval Group is hard to deal with and they reneged on ToT terms. When TKMS will treat you the same way, is MoD going to give this same excuse again? Stop with the excuses and get a capable team to handle price/contract negotiations with Naval Group for six more Scorpenes. Heck, make it a 12-build program and split the contract with MDL (six Project 75I boats) and L&T (six Project 76 boats).

You have a price/contract negotiation team right now, with the three follow-on Scorpene acquisition. Work with that team and add additional capable people if needed. If you are impotent to handle Naval Group, how are you going to handle TKMS?

FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE, DO THE RIGHT AND PRAGMATIC THING! FOR ONCE!

[Aditya G]

I *REALLY* and *SINCERELY* hope the TKMS acquisition fails spectacularly in the price negotiation stage. That program needs to crash and burn just like the 65K IAC-2 super carrier program. The PMO needs to step in and put an end to the Navy's fantasy.

MDL and L&T are capable and proven to develop submarines. MoD needs to stop giving excuses that the Naval Group is hard to deal with and they reneged on ToT terms. When TKMS will treat you the same way, is MoD going to give this same excuse again? Stop with the excuses and get a capable team to handle price/contract negotiations with Naval Group for six more Scorpenes. Heck, make it a 12-build program and split the contract with MDL (six Project 75I boats) and L&T (six Project 76 boats).

You have a price/contract negotiation team right now, with the three follow-on Scorpene acquisition. Work with that team and add additional capable people if needed. If you are impotent to handle Naval Group, how are you going to handle TKMS?

FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE, DO THE RIGHT AND PRAGMATIC THING! FOR ONCE!

Nothing is stopping us from going ahead with project-76. You may cancel Project 75I - but does that automatically lead to a successful P76?

As of today we dont even have design signed off for a desi submarine let alone contractuals. Forget design has the Navy even put down requirements to paper? 3 years to write requirements, 3 years to design, 3-4 years of negotiations the earliest we can ask for P76 is 2035.

We took 15 years just to do a repeat order of Scorpenes.

Quoting the first post of this thread - 10 years old at which stage it was already a saga - it is a miracle that we could even down select to TKMS so pray that miracle bears fruit and we complete contracts in next 3 years.

Project 75I - It Begins
Post by Will » 25 Oct 2014 12:36 pm

This is the next awaited big ticket project. Finally cleared and the RFP should be out soon. Lets track it here. Hope it doesn't turn into another saga though in way it already kinda is...

[Rakesh]

Nothing is stopping us from going ahead with project-76. You may cancel Project 75I - but does that automatically lead to a successful P76?

As of today we dont even have design signed off for a desi submarine let alone contractuals. Forget design has the Navy even put down requirements to paper? 3 years to write requirements, 3 years to design, 3-4 years of negotiations the earliest we can ask for P76 is 2035.

We took 15 years just to do a repeat order of Scorpenes.

Quoting the first post of this thread - 10 years old at which stage it was already a saga - it is a miracle that we could even down select to TKMS so pray that miracle bears fruit and we complete contracts in next 3 years.

We got Einsteins for negotiators who represent India with foreign OEMs.

The South Koreans are able to build a whole new generation of submarine (KSS-III Class - 9 hulls in total) from their experience with TKMS over the HDW 209 and 214 boats. They were one of the participants in the P-75I contest, before they voluntarily exited. They built a total of nine Type 214 boats, split between two shipyards ---> HHI (Hyundai Heavy Industries) and Hanwha Ocean Company Ltd (formerly Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering {DSME}). Prior to that, HHI built a total of nine HDW 209, Type 1400 boats and produced three more boats of this class for the Indonesian Navy. 27 submarines (not incl the 3 for Indonesia) for a nation whose coastline is vastly smaller than that of India's. Shame on us!

The Spanish never even built a single Scorpene boat, but yet were one of the two contestants in the P-75I contest. The S-80 Class is a bigger and more advanced Scorpene, with AIP. Navantia worked with Naval Group and produced a design off the Scorpene design.

What the South Koreans and Spanish did, India's negotiators are unable to do or they are impotent? The MoD is working with Naval Group now on three follow-on Scorpene boats, that will be similar to the S-80 Class boat once completed. India's negotiating team needs to work with Naval Group on improving that design for Project 76, in lieu of giving them the contract for minimum 6 boats, instead of three. Why does India need to work with a whole other OEM, when they are partnering with one now? And I am not going to buy the lame excuse that because the Scorpene was compromised in a leak, so now the Navy has to look at another foreign OEM. If the boat was compromised, then why acquire three more?

If Naval Group's attitude was a tough pill to swallow (damage to ego) for the MoD, how will they deal with TKMS' attitude...where they will stomp on their ego. The Germans will not give you squat of value and the MoD will be forced to drink that bitter water. Once the contract is signed, you are at the mercy of the OEM. And after P-75I is done and dusted, India will still have no idea on how to build a SSK.

Also, the Navy's penchant of I-must-have-the-best is nonsensical. Delays in acquisition cost lives in war. But Admirals and the MoD do not care, because it is not their life. Pin a medal, sing national anthem and then hold contest for Project 76 and claim that this will be the last ToT for submarines. Post that, we build our own SSK. How much longer are we going to rinse and repeat this foolishness?

[maitya]

<snip>
The MoD is working with Naval Group now on three follow-on Scorpene boats, that will be similar to the S-80 Class boat once completed. India's negotiating team needs to work with Naval Group on improving that design for Project 76, in lieu of giving them the contract for minimum 6 boats, instead of three. Why does India need to work with a whole other OEM, when they are partnering with one now?
<snip>

But but, before that, whatever happened to the project for retrofitting of the existing 6 Kalvari class with DRDO AIP as a part of the their mid-life refits? Looks like this has been quietly dropped ...
If these worthies are not able to negotiate something as simple as that, not sure what good is this bunch for ... and tasking them to negotiate a whole new program like P-76 etc, is like

[V_Raman]

I honestly think we overestimate indian domestic mic capability. It took them decades to produce Bofors for which we got a honest tot. i dont think we have the capability we think we have right from education to productionizing designs. we are fooling ourselves if we compare india to sk for industrial capability. indian society does not have the relationship with machines like these advanced countries have. knowledge about using/fixing machines is at a much deeper level in those countries than in india. i would say that the govt is trying its best despite the mic shortcomings. they got to keep the forces fighting fit at the end of the day. get tot where possible - it might take decades to use them and make them as the capability improves...

[uddu]

But but, before that, whatever happened to the project for retrofitting of the existing 6 Kalvari class with DRDO AIP as a part of the their mid-life refits? Looks like this has been quietly dropped ...
If these worthies are not able to negotiate something as simple as that, not sure what good is this bunch for ... and tasking them to negotiate a whole new program like P-76 etc, is like

The refit of INS Kalvari is going to happen in 2026. So the retrofit is planned during that time.

Indian Navy’s Scorpene submarine to get strategically critical Air Independent Propulsion by 2026: DRDO chairperson
https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... n-9556072/
08 Sept 2024

Decades passed without any action after the HDW scandal. So P75I seems a temporary measure to make up for the many decommissioning of submarines about to happen. Many other aspects of work are going on. The reliance on foreign OEMs is being cut. Now BEL tasked to work on new CMS (Combat Management System) for the Kalvari Class submarines.

Indian Navy to replace French CMS on Kalvari Class submarines with indigenous solution
https://idrw.org/indian-navy-to-replace ... -solution/
06 Feb 2025

Work on Project 76 is going on and design work to be completed by 2028. The sub is supposed to be around 3,000 - 4,000 tons.

Indian Navy aims high with Project 76 plans for over 3000 ton submarines
https://idrw.org/indian-navy-aims-high- ... ubmarines/
06 Feb 2025

Another good news is the integration of mission computer on MiG-29K for the Astra MK1.

Indian Navy's MiG 29K fleet upgraded with indigenous mission computer set for Astra Mk1 integration
https://idrw.org/indian-navys-mig-29k-f ... tegration/
06 Feb 2025

[Rakesh]

Another good news is the integration of mission computer on MiG-29K for the Astra MK1.

Indian Navy's MiG 29K fleet upgraded with indigenous mission computer set for Astra Mk1 integration
https://idrw.org/indian-navys-mig-29k-f ... tegration/
06 Feb 2025

Please post this in the Indian naval aviation thread ---> viewtopic.php?t=7308&start=2840

[Rakesh]

Naval Group charges rival ThyssenKrupp with selling out submarine tech
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... rine-tech/
20 Feb 2025

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 6315531368 ---> The Manohar Parrikar conundrum in India’s submarine production. In this piece I argue why India needs to scrap its Rs 1 lakh crore imported submarine buys (3 P76 + 6 P75I), double down on P76 and learn from its Atmanirbhar N-sub line. Restart the Arihant line for a new line of SSGNs.

Make Indian Subs Great Again
https://www.news9live.com/india/make-in ... in-2825865
20 Feb 2025

The four Arihant Class SSBNs are India’s biggest technological breakthroughs. The Arihant and Arighat are in service with the larger S4 and S4* displacing over 7,000 tons each, slated for induction by 2026.

[Manish_P]

Naval Group charges rival ThyssenKrupp with selling out submarine tech
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... rine-tech/
20 Feb 2025

Brilliant marketing of the German rivals by the French

The IN/MoD will now be able to say 'See, we told you we will get lot of ToT by going along with the Germans'

[drnayar]

Naval Group charges rival ThyssenKrupp with selling out submarine tech
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... rine-tech/
20 Feb 2025

Doesn't this mean that Naval Group would never sell anyone including India any significant submarine tech ?!!..

So the scorpenes "tot" ..one can just imagine it did nothing to build up Indian capability

[srai]

^^^
In India, all the decades of wide ranging ToTs haven’t done much … why still surprised?