Project 75I - It Begins

[maitya]

A thought:
Since we're going to throw-in substantial amounts (INR48K Cr has now become INR70K Cr etc, is it?) to stand-up this ToT (whatever that means) and license manufacture of these 6 boats, why is it so difficult for the MoD to demand that TKMS does dual-track parallel ToT for:
1) for a 4 boat build program to MDL (similar to what TKMS has agreed for the Typ2-212CD class for the Norwegian Navy program)
2) for 2 boat parallel build program to L&T (provided L&T match the MDL quote of per boat cost)
3) plus an option of 2 more boats to whoever hands-over their first 2 boats first to IN
(ofcourse with a measurable demonstration of a set-target (say 60%) indigenization content at the end of their 2nd boat builds)

That will squeeze in the overall timelines, though by not very much - as the lead time to build the first boat is abnormally long (compared to the entire program). But it will also mitigate the risk of ToT absorption etc and build the relevant submarine building tech indigenization.

Ofcourse, L&T can always decline the offer, in which case, it's back to where it's currently anyway ...

[Rakesh]

Sijree, this same thing can be done with the Scorpene program, of which a trained workforce exists in India.

MDL will already be building three improved Scorpenes, just convert that into a six-build program and call it Project 75I. The first Project 75 (Kalvari Class) boat will already be undergoing a refit with the DRDO AIP plug. Just work with that.

Why we need to waste 70K Crore or even 48K Crore with TKMS? If the Navantia boat (S-80 Plus SSK) can participate in the P-75I contest, then what exactly will the three new improved Scorpenes not have vis-à-vis the S-80 Plus SSK? In the same vein, what will the six Project 75 (Kalvari Class) boats not have vis-à-vis the S-80 Plus SSK...post their MLU refit with the DRDO AIP plug?

And give L&T a six build program for Project 76 (larger boat i.e. Ocean Going SSK*). We can do this in India, with what we have. Best is the enemy of Good Enough! What is this fascination with the Type 212CD?

*A marketing term to convince gullible navies who cannot afford a SSN program.

[maitya]

Sijree, this same thing can be done with the Scorpene program, of which a trained workforce exists in India.

MDL will already be building three improved Scorpenes, just convert that into a six-build program and call it Project 75I. The first Project 75 boat will already be undergoing a refit with the DRDO AIP plug. Just work with that.

Why we need to waste 70K Crore or even 48K Crore with TKMS? If the Navantia boat (S-80 Plus SSK) can participate in the P-75I contest, then what exactly will the three new improved Scorpenes not have? In the same vein, what will the six Project 75 (Kalvari Class) boats not have...post their MLU refit with the DRDO AIP plug?

And give L&T a six build program for Project 76. We can do this in India, with what we have. Best is the enemy of Good Enough!

Well, what if this 75I tamasha fails in the price-negotiation stage itself?
Also, I have a feeling, and can be wrong as well, that TKMS will renege majorly on the ToT aspects in a few years time - creating another impasse, spending some more years resolving it, if at all.

So, I think, either 4+2 P-75I split, or maybe, it'd be better to convert the 3 more Scorpene deal with MDL to 3 MDL + 3 L&T parallel-build deal with Scorpene - and let P76 go to whoever wins it (or even that can be split between MDL and L&T).

Any which way, none of these approaches will be any less costly or anything ...
Schedule/Timelines are of crucial importance ... we are destined to spend obscene amounts, due to our procrastination and decision-making-paralysis, so why not atleast mitigate one of the dimensions (schedule) atleast?

[Rakesh]

I *REALLY* and *SINCERELY* hope the TKMS acquisition fails spectacularly in the price negotiation stage. That program needs to crash and burn just like the 65K IAC-2 super carrier program. The PMO needs to step in and put an end to the Navy's fantasy.

MDL and L&T are capable and proven to develop submarines. MoD needs to stop giving excuses that the Naval Group is hard to deal with and they reneged on ToT terms. When TKMS will treat you the same way, is MoD going to give this same excuse again? Stop with the excuses and get a capable team to handle price/contract negotiations with Naval Group for six more Scorpenes. Heck, make it a 12-build program and split the contract with MDL (six Project 75I boats) and L&T (six Project 76 boats).

You have a price/contract negotiation team right now, with the three follow-on Scorpene acquisition. Work with that team and add additional capable people if needed. If you are impotent to handle Naval Group, how are you going to handle TKMS?

FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE, DO THE RIGHT AND PRAGMATIC THING! FOR ONCE!

[Aditya G]

I *REALLY* and *SINCERELY* hope the TKMS acquisition fails spectacularly in the price negotiation stage. That program needs to crash and burn just like the 65K IAC-2 super carrier program. The PMO needs to step in and put an end to the Navy's fantasy.

MDL and L&T are capable and proven to develop submarines. MoD needs to stop giving excuses that the Naval Group is hard to deal with and they reneged on ToT terms. When TKMS will treat you the same way, is MoD going to give this same excuse again? Stop with the excuses and get a capable team to handle price/contract negotiations with Naval Group for six more Scorpenes. Heck, make it a 12-build program and split the contract with MDL (six Project 75I boats) and L&T (six Project 76 boats).

You have a price/contract negotiation team right now, with the three follow-on Scorpene acquisition. Work with that team and add additional capable people if needed. If you are impotent to handle Naval Group, how are you going to handle TKMS?

FOR ONCE IN YOUR LIFE, DO THE RIGHT AND PRAGMATIC THING! FOR ONCE!

Nothing is stopping us from going ahead with project-76. You may cancel Project 75I - but does that automatically lead to a successful P76?

As of today we dont even have design signed off for a desi submarine let alone contractuals. Forget design has the Navy even put down requirements to paper? 3 years to write requirements, 3 years to design, 3-4 years of negotiations the earliest we can ask for P76 is 2035.

We took 15 years just to do a repeat order of Scorpenes.

Quoting the first post of this thread - 10 years old at which stage it was already a saga - it is a miracle that we could even down select to TKMS so pray that miracle bears fruit and we complete contracts in next 3 years.

Project 75I - It Begins
Post by Will » 25 Oct 2014 12:36 pm

This is the next awaited big ticket project. Finally cleared and the RFP should be out soon. Lets track it here. Hope it doesn't turn into another saga though in way it already kinda is...

[Rakesh]

Nothing is stopping us from going ahead with project-76. You may cancel Project 75I - but does that automatically lead to a successful P76?

As of today we dont even have design signed off for a desi submarine let alone contractuals. Forget design has the Navy even put down requirements to paper? 3 years to write requirements, 3 years to design, 3-4 years of negotiations the earliest we can ask for P76 is 2035.

We took 15 years just to do a repeat order of Scorpenes.

Quoting the first post of this thread - 10 years old at which stage it was already a saga - it is a miracle that we could even down select to TKMS so pray that miracle bears fruit and we complete contracts in next 3 years.

We got Einsteins for negotiators who represent India with foreign OEMs.

The South Koreans are able to build a whole new generation of submarine (KSS-III Class - 9 hulls in total) from their experience with TKMS over the HDW 209 and 214 boats. They were one of the participants in the P-75I contest, before they voluntarily exited. They built a total of nine Type 214 boats, split between two shipyards ---> HHI (Hyundai Heavy Industries) and Hanwha Ocean Company Ltd (formerly Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering {DSME}). Prior to that, HHI built a total of nine HDW 209, Type 1400 boats and produced three more boats of this class for the Indonesian Navy. 27 submarines (not incl the 3 for Indonesia) for a nation whose coastline is vastly smaller than that of India's. Shame on us!

The Spanish never even built a single Scorpene boat, but yet were one of the two contestants in the P-75I contest. The S-80 Class is a bigger and more advanced Scorpene, with AIP. Navantia worked with Naval Group and produced a design off the Scorpene design.

What the South Koreans and Spanish did, India's negotiators are unable to do or they are impotent? The MoD is working with Naval Group now on three follow-on Scorpene boats, that will be similar to the S-80 Class boat once completed. India's negotiating team needs to work with Naval Group on improving that design for Project 76, in lieu of giving them the contract for minimum 6 boats, instead of three. Why does India need to work with a whole other OEM, when they are partnering with one now? And I am not going to buy the lame excuse that because the Scorpene was compromised in a leak, so now the Navy has to look at another foreign OEM. If the boat was compromised, then why acquire three more?

If Naval Group's attitude was a tough pill to swallow (damage to ego) for the MoD, how will they deal with TKMS' attitude...where they will stomp on their ego. The Germans will not give you squat of value and the MoD will be forced to drink that bitter water. Once the contract is signed, you are at the mercy of the OEM. And after P-75I is done and dusted, India will still have no idea on how to build a SSK.

Also, the Navy's penchant of I-must-have-the-best is nonsensical. Delays in acquisition cost lives in war. But Admirals and the MoD do not care, because it is not their life. Pin a medal, sing national anthem and then hold contest for Project 76 and claim that this will be the last ToT for submarines. Post that, we build our own SSK. How much longer are we going to rinse and repeat this foolishness?

[maitya]

<snip>
The MoD is working with Naval Group now on three follow-on Scorpene boats, that will be similar to the S-80 Class boat once completed. India's negotiating team needs to work with Naval Group on improving that design for Project 76, in lieu of giving them the contract for minimum 6 boats, instead of three. Why does India need to work with a whole other OEM, when they are partnering with one now?
<snip>

But but, before that, whatever happened to the project for retrofitting of the existing 6 Kalvari class with DRDO AIP as a part of the their mid-life refits? Looks like this has been quietly dropped ...
If these worthies are not able to negotiate something as simple as that, not sure what good is this bunch for ... and tasking them to negotiate a whole new program like P-76 etc, is like

[V_Raman]

I honestly think we overestimate indian domestic mic capability. It took them decades to produce Bofors for which we got a honest tot. i dont think we have the capability we think we have right from education to productionizing designs. we are fooling ourselves if we compare india to sk for industrial capability. indian society does not have the relationship with machines like these advanced countries have. knowledge about using/fixing machines is at a much deeper level in those countries than in india. i would say that the govt is trying its best despite the mic shortcomings. they got to keep the forces fighting fit at the end of the day. get tot where possible - it might take decades to use them and make them as the capability improves...

[uddu]

But but, before that, whatever happened to the project for retrofitting of the existing 6 Kalvari class with DRDO AIP as a part of the their mid-life refits? Looks like this has been quietly dropped ...
If these worthies are not able to negotiate something as simple as that, not sure what good is this bunch for ... and tasking them to negotiate a whole new program like P-76 etc, is like

The refit of INS Kalvari is going to happen in 2026. So the retrofit is planned during that time.

Indian Navy’s Scorpene submarine to get strategically critical Air Independent Propulsion by 2026: DRDO chairperson
https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... n-9556072/
08 Sept 2024

Decades passed without any action after the HDW scandal. So P75I seems a temporary measure to make up for the many decommissioning of submarines about to happen. Many other aspects of work are going on. The reliance on foreign OEMs is being cut. Now BEL tasked to work on new CMS (Combat Management System) for the Kalvari Class submarines.

Indian Navy to replace French CMS on Kalvari Class submarines with indigenous solution
https://idrw.org/indian-navy-to-replace ... -solution/
06 Feb 2025

Work on Project 76 is going on and design work to be completed by 2028. The sub is supposed to be around 3,000 - 4,000 tons.

Indian Navy aims high with Project 76 plans for over 3000 ton submarines
https://idrw.org/indian-navy-aims-high- ... ubmarines/
06 Feb 2025

Another good news is the integration of mission computer on MiG-29K for the Astra MK1.

Indian Navy's MiG 29K fleet upgraded with indigenous mission computer set for Astra Mk1 integration
https://idrw.org/indian-navys-mig-29k-f ... tegration/
06 Feb 2025

[Rakesh]

Another good news is the integration of mission computer on MiG-29K for the Astra MK1.

Indian Navy's MiG 29K fleet upgraded with indigenous mission computer set for Astra Mk1 integration
https://idrw.org/indian-navys-mig-29k-f ... tegration/
06 Feb 2025

Please post this in the Indian naval aviation thread ---> viewtopic.php?t=7308&start=2840

[Rakesh]

Naval Group charges rival ThyssenKrupp with selling out submarine tech
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... rine-tech/
20 Feb 2025

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 6315531368 ---> The Manohar Parrikar conundrum in India’s submarine production. In this piece I argue why India needs to scrap its Rs 1 lakh crore imported submarine buys (3 P76 + 6 P75I), double down on P76 and learn from its Atmanirbhar N-sub line. Restart the Arihant line for a new line of SSGNs.

Make Indian Subs Great Again
https://www.news9live.com/india/make-in ... in-2825865
20 Feb 2025

The four Arihant Class SSBNs are India’s biggest technological breakthroughs. The Arihant and Arighat are in service with the larger S4 and S4* displacing over 7,000 tons each, slated for induction by 2026.

[Manish_P]

Naval Group charges rival ThyssenKrupp with selling out submarine tech
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... rine-tech/
20 Feb 2025

Brilliant marketing of the German rivals by the French

The IN/MoD will now be able to say 'See, we told you we will get lot of ToT by going along with the Germans'

[drnayar]

Naval Group charges rival ThyssenKrupp with selling out submarine tech
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... rine-tech/
20 Feb 2025

Doesn't this mean that Naval Group would never sell anyone including India any significant submarine tech ?!!..

So the scorpenes "tot" ..one can just imagine it did nothing to build up Indian capability

[srai]

^^^
In India, all the decades of wide ranging ToTs haven’t done much … why still surprised?

[Rakesh]

VLS Cell is back on Project-75I

VIDEO: https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/19 ... 7244353663 ---> Brahmos Missile Vertical Launch system will be integrated with coming P75-I Submarine for long range attack says : former CEO & MD of Brahmos, Dr Sudhir Mishra.

[maitya]

VLS Cell is back on Project-75I

VIDEO: https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/19 ... 7244353663 ---> Brahmos Missile Vertical Launch system will be integrated with coming P75-I Submarine for long range attack says : former CEO & MD of Brahmos, Dr Sudhir Mishra.

Oh man!! Oh man!! Oh man!!
Round and round we go again - what a merry-go-around tamasha this whole program has degenerated to ...

[Rakesh]

Oh man!! Oh man!! Oh man!!
Round and round we go again - what a merry-go-around tamasha this whole program has degenerated to ...

The AIP system on offer to India (from HDW) is not proven on the scale of the P-75I submarine i.e. tonnage wise.

Now if you add a VLS cell, it would only increase the tonnage. So an unproven AIP will be installed aboard the P-75I, when the Indian Navy insisted on a proven AIP system. So more delays (measured in minimum of a decade). But it does not matter. Only the lives of the sailors and officers are at risk who operate ageing submarines. And when the older Kilos and HDW boats retire, we will be down to six Kalvari Class boats. The follow-on three additional Kalvari Class boats have yet to be signed. All is well onlee.

Moral of the Story --->

* Foreign Unproven AIP = Perfectly Fine, because it is Phoren.
* DRDO's AIP = Not Acceptable, because it is never been tested on an operational vessel.

[Prem Kumar]

Every Arm of our forces have their Achilles heel. For the IN, its their submarines

The Army has too many to count

Too bad that our RM is clueless on whose bottom needs a crack of the whip. Rajnath Singh is decently competent - he is like a good project manager. He gets the job done & if given a directive (Atmanirbhar), he tries to stick to it. But he does not know when he is manipulated nor is he a leader who can set the vision, bash heads together and get stuff done

This is unfortunately where we are. We have to be content with the fact that we don't have an A K Anthony, under whose watch nothing moved

[maitya]

Oh man!! Oh man!! Oh man!!
Round and round we go again - what a merry-go-around tamasha this whole program has degenerated to ...

The AIP system on offer to India (from HDW) is not proven on the scale of the P-75I submarine i.e. tonnage wise.

Now if you add a VLS cell, it would only increase the tonnage. So an unproven AIP will be installed aboard the P-75I, when the Indian Navy insisted on a proven AIP system. So more delays (measured in minimum of a decade). But it does not matter. Only the lives of the sailors and officers are at risk who operate ageing submarines. And when the older Kilos and HDW boats retire, we will be down to six Kalvari Class boats. The follow-on three additional Kalvari Class boats have yet to be signed. All is well onlee.

Moral of the Story --->

* Foreign Unproven AIP = Perfectly Fine, because it is Phoren.
* DRDO's AIP = Not Acceptable, because it is never been tested on an operational vessel.

A pretty sad state of affairs, must say ...
Anyway as I've said before, the only option is:

...
So, I think, either 4+2 P-75I split, or maybe, it'd be better to convert the 3 more Scorpene deal with MDL to 3 MDL + 3 L&T parallel-build deal with Scorpene
...

But there'll be the std "dekho no money" rudaali from MoD, whilst their boss keeps uttering, in many of his public interviews, that "Money is not a problem" ... etc etc etc.
But wait, the 3 more Scorpene with MDL "base" deal itself is nowhere to be seen ... Ditto with the deal for AIP integration at mid-life refit for the Kalvaris

[nachiket]

VLS Cell is back on Project-75I

VIDEO: https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/19 ... 7244353663 ---> Brahmos Missile Vertical Launch system will be integrated with coming P75-I Submarine for long range attack says : former CEO & MD of Brahmos, Dr Sudhir Mishra.

This is a cunning plan to ensure that this thread will be active with the same title "It begins" even in 2034, 20 years after it was created.

[Rakesh]

None of the below was good enough for Project 75I. This obsession of VLS cell on P-75I is such a boondoggle. Import the latest and greatest is all the services are interested in doing. We will never learn to do iterative improvements. But will go and buy a whole other boat! The first of three follow-on Scorpenes is due to arrive within 72 months (or 6 years) from contract signature. Imagine how long the P-75I boat will take to arrive. In an ideal world, they would have built six more follow-on Scorpene boats with the below. And at a future MLU, incorporate the DRDO AIP on all 12 boats. And the upcoming Project 76 program should be a 12 build program, in a 6 + 6 build schedule and with lessons learnt from the earlier 12 boats.

Kalvari Class vs follow-on Scorpene
- Twice the mission endurance: Check
- Twice the weapon load: Check
- Better Propulsion: Check
- Reduced Fuel Consumption: Check
- Reduced IR Signature: Check
But-Nyet*-I-want-my-Project-75I-boat-onlee-from-HDW-with-super-duper-VLS-cell-and-will-hold-my-breath-till-I-turn-BLUE
*Nyet is the Russian word for No

Nod for additional Scorpene submarines still awaited, Navy & Mazagon Dockyard Ltd in limbo
https://theprint.in/defence/nod-for-add ... o/2684757/
09 July 2025

One of the primary differences between the new batch and the original six is size. The new submarines will feature nearly double the mission duration, thanks to improvements in design that include larger accommodations, increased food and water storage, and expanded sanitary and oil storage facilities.

Another key upgrade is in armament. The new submarines will be able to carry more than twice the weapon load of their predecessors and are designed to accommodate additional weapons in the future—provided they fit existing weapon tubes.

While neither the older or newer Scorpenes will be fitted with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) systems just yet with India’s indigenous AIP still under development, the new ones will feature modernised electric propulsion motors. These upgrades will ensure lower power consumption and quicker maintenance. The diesel generators on the new submarines will also be sourced from a different company, chosen for its superior after-sales service and industrial support for the Indian Navy. These generators are expected to reduce fuel consumption by 20 percent and significantly lower vacuum build-up while snorting. In addition, the new submarines will incorporate a new design that reduces infrared signatures, gas volume, and overall visual profile. Thanks to their increased size, the upcoming submarines will have greater endurance, range, and mission capability, according to sources.

[Rakesh]

From Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai, NM (Retd.) - former Flag Officer Naval Aviation, CoS ANC, CI (Navy) DSSC Wellington

https://x.com/sudhirpillai__/status/1942948047874675053 ---> Haven’t we learnt from the HDW debacle? MDL’s sub-building ecosystem was left to die once. It’s been rebuilt at great cost with Scorpene. With the line now complete and the final submarine (Vaghsheer) undergoing sea trials, further delay risks idling this ecosystem, forcing retrenchment or diversion of resources just when continuity is critical. Now, strategic drift threatens to stall @indiannavy, @MazagonDockLtd & its MSME chain again. @DefenceMinIndia.

[sanjayc]

^^ Something needs to be done about decision-making delays in Def Ministry. Delays of decades is common in acquiring any platform. Nothing gets ordered, or get ordered with delay of 20-30 years. Don't know who is behind this.

[Prem Kumar]

From Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai, NM (Retd.) - former Flag Officer Naval Aviation, CoS ANC, CI (Navy) DSSC Wellington

https://x.com/sudhirpillai__/status/1942948047874675053 ---> Haven’t we learnt from the HDW debacle? MDL’s sub-building ecosystem was left to die once. It’s been rebuilt at great cost with Scorpene. With the line now complete and the final submarine (Vaghsheer) undergoing sea trials, further delay risks idling this ecosystem, forcing retrenchment or diversion of resources just when continuity is critical. Now, strategic drift threatens to stall @indiannavy, @MazagonDockLtd & its MSME chain again. @DefenceMinIndia.

Letting a line go idle is the 2nd favorite past-time of our Armed Forces leadership (the favorite is endless trials)

Tejas: let GE line go idle
K9-Vajra: let the L&T line go idle
Scorpene: let MDL line go idle

The sanest approach would've been to call the 6 Scorpene follow-ups as P75-I, ordered it long before the line went idle & in parallel, build our own Project-76 with foreign consultancy (German, if the IN loves them so much). So that, by the time the 12 Scorpene boats are delivered, the 1st P-76 is hitting the water. Plus a built-in clause to order 3 more Scorpenes (beyond the 12), in case P-76 gets delayed

But hell no! That which is common-sense, mustn't be done

[Rakesh]

MDL to get submarine contracts worth over ₹1 lakh crore in FY25-26
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 49664.html
09 July 2025

The first contract is the ₹70,000-crore Project 75I under which MDL and German Yard Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems will build six advanced submarines.