Pahalgam Terror Attack: News & Discussion

[partha]

External Affairs Minister Dr. S. Jaishankar meets Israeli Ambassador Reuven Azar in New Delhi.

Says, “Appreciated Israel’s steadfast support in combating cross-border terrorism.”

EAM also spoke to Saudi FM and then interestingly Saudi FM called Paki FM and had a chat.

[sanjayc]

India’s neighbour from hell

Indian understanding of Pakistan and Pakistanis has no rigour. It is mostly anecdotal, flaky, superficial and pedestrian. The distinction that is often made between the Pakistani state and society is entirely and completely fallacious. There is no difference between the two. It is a country whose existence is based on anti-Indiaism and anti-Hinduism

Sushant Sareen

The greatest intellectual and strategic failure of India is the absence of Shatrubodh (understanding of the enemy). This is not limited to only the society but also extends to sections of the Indian state and many of its functionaries, political, military and bureaucratic. The inability to clearly identify the enemy, much less its motivations and its mindset, means India has never prepared itself to vanquish, or even deter, the enemy.

Forget China or Bangladesh or the fifth column inside India, even an enemy like Pakistan that avows enmity and hatred for not just the idea of India but also of Hindus has not been studied and understood like it should have been. What is mind boggling is that even when Pakistanis openly proclaim they are an enemy of India and Hindus and want to balkanise India, there are people (including people who have served as advisors to Prime Ministers) who insist that “no, no, you are not an enemy but a brother and friend”. And then there are people who were responsible for securing India and fancy themselves as experts on Kashmir feel proud to call for “moving on and moving forward” with Pakistan.

While it is unfair to doubt anyone’s integrity without evidence, there is sufficient proof to question their intellect, intelligence and sheer obtuseness.

Indians have a shallow understanding of Pakistan

Indian understanding of Pakistan and Pakistanis has no rigour. It is mostly anecdotal, flaky, superficial and pedestrian. Personal experiences are often conflated with the political and imagination is allowed to run wild thinking if personal relations are cordial then it can be the same at the political level. Worse, anecdotal experiences are delusionally extrapolated to think everyone on the other side is the same and that peace and friendship with Pakistan is within grasp.

After all, we speak the same language (no we don’t), we share the same traditions and customs (no we don’t), we like the same music (no we don’t), we wear the same clothes and look the same (no we don’t), we have the same dreams and ambitions (most certainly we don’t – Indians dream of educating their kids and moving up in life, Pakistanis dream of how to make their kids a martyr in jihad against Kafirs; Indians have ambitions of becoming the next Elon Musk or Mukesh Ambani, Pakistanis dream of becoming a Hafiz Saeed or if very ambitious then Khaled the conqueror).

"Two nations" carried to an extreme

What the Indians just haven’t got is that Pakistan is an Islamist ideological state in which hate and intolerance for the ‘other’ is framed in the so-called “Two Nation Theory” (2NT). This ideology of hate which gave birth to the country is the ruling paradigm. Interestingly, the 2NT operates at different levels: it created Pakistan because Hindus and Muslims were two nations that couldn’t live together – communal and religious 2NT; it created Bangladesh because Punjabis couldn’t live with the Bengalis – an ethnic, linguistic and racist 2NT; it is now reflected in the Pakistani Punjabi Muslim wanting to colonise and exploit the Baloch – a colonial 2NT; it is also reflected in Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) wanting to enforce its brand of Islam on the Punjabi dominated Pakistan – an Islamist 2NT; and it is manifest in Sunnis vs Shias and Deobandis vs Barelvi divides – the sectarian 2NT. What this means is that anyone who subscribes to the 2NT and believes in ‘ideology of Pakistan’ is incapable of living in peace with anyone else.

That is why wherever Pakistanis go they bring trouble – UK being a prime example, and many Arab states also running out of patience with Pakistani shenanigans. And yet, if any Indian thinks there can be peace with Pakistan, then they are living in an alternate reality.

Myth of the whisky drinking generals

Most Indians have manufactured their own myths and measures for judging the Pakistanis. Needless to say, these are utterly specious, even puerile. Sample this: such and such general drinks whisky so he must be a moderate; such and such politician wears three piece suits so he must be enlightened; such and such journalist tells us ‘pleasant lies’, appreciates India and Indians so he/she must be secular; such and such Pakistani has studied in a Western university so he must be progressive.

This kind of labelling and stereotyping is not just superficial, it makes for utterly wonky analysis. If only these Pakistanis were scratched to ferret out their true nature, the Indians would realise that there is little to choose between these characters and the more visible jihadist elements. In anything, with the latter you get what you see, which is hardly these case with these two-faced faux liberals, or Islamists with a secular façade.

Regardless of their accent or their act of being enlightened moderates, Pakistanis, especially Punjabi Muslims who suffer from a deep inferiority complex of the neo-convert trying to prove his faith but unable to shake off his caste identity – Jat, Gujjar, Arain, Rajput, Shaikh (baniya converts) etc. – have a visceral hatred for Hindus (also Sikhs and Christians) and by extension India. The Punjabi Muslim is the most vicious, venomous, visceral and even vacuous Pakistani. These are people who are the products of Pakistan’s enormously successful indoctrination program through which multiple generations have been brainwashed with lies, half-truths and bigotry to make them ‘good’ Muslims who not just hate the ‘other’ but are incapable of living in peace with anyone not like them.

This includes othering the Baloch or the Pashtun nationalists for example. Some decades ago, they hated the Bengalis but now that Bangladesh is becoming a mirror image of Islamist Pakistan, the Bengalis of Bangladesh are suddenly long-lost brothers of Punjabi Muslims.

Indians are easy patsies for Pakistanis who try to infiltrate by pretending to be democrats and anti-Pakistan Army. Almost all of these are traps laid out for gullible Indians who take them at face value and give access to them which otherwise would not be available.

A candid Afghan perspective

Unlike the Indians, the Afghans got a good measure of the Pakistanis, particularly the Punjabi Muslim. In what is probably the most accurate description of Pakistan, the former Taliban ambassador to Islamabad, Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef in his book “My Life With Taliban” described Pakistanis in the following words:

"Pakistan...is so famous for treachery that it is said they can get milk from a bull. They have two tongues in one mouth, and two faces on one head so they can speak everybody's language; they use everybody, deceive everybody. They decieve the Arabs under the guise of an Islamic nuclear power, saying that they are defending Islam and Islamic countries. They milk America and Europe in the alliance against terrorism, and they have been deceiving Pakistani and other Muslims around the world in the name of Kashmiri jihad. But behind the curtain they have been betraying everyone. Their Islam and their jihad were to destroy their neighbouring Islamic country together with infidels...”

Wake up, India

India and Indians need to wake up from their delusions about Pakistan and understand that the distinction that is often made between the Pakistani state and society is entirely and completely fallacious. There is no difference between the two. All you need is to scratch at the surface and the truth will out. This distinction is nothing more than a kind of virtue signaling by Indians who don’t want to accept the reality of Pakistan being an implacable, civilisational enemy of India. It is a country whose existence is based on anti-Indiaism and anti-Hinduism. To expect that such a people can be befriended is to live in cloud cuckoo land.

It is imperative that Indian policy makers also throw in the rubbish bin the proposition that if we talk to the Pakistan Army, we can settle matters and normalise affairs. The thing is that this too is a desultory path because what one general decides is often reneged by his successor – Ashfaq Kayani did 26/11 to undo Musharraf’s peace moves; Asim Munir has done Pahalgam to undo what his predecessor Qamar Bajwa was trying to do.

If India is serious about putting Pakistan in its place, the first thing it needs to do is get real about the country and people it is dealing with, their mindset and their maniacal motivations. Otherwise, India will continue to get surprised and shocked by Pakistani actions. It is indeed time to move on and move forward on Pakistan, not in the direction that a former spook would have us take but in the opposite direction. And while doing so, it might serve India well to do a deep dive in studying all aspects of Pakistan and become better informed about the enemy at the gates.

Sushant Sareen is Senior Fellow at Observer Research Foundation. Views are personal and do not represent the stand of this publication.

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/opini ... 04131.html

[williams]

Gents our objective is very simple.

We need Kashmir to thrive normally without any Islamic terrorists killing and threatening day to day living.
We need India to thrive with out any Islamic terrorist threats.

If the above is impossible, then we need to render punishment to the terrorists and their perpetuators every time they attempt to do it. Note the word "attempt". That means not only when the incident happens. We should start thinking about when incidents are attempted and our security forces have thwarted it.

We need to neutralize the whole chain of leadership, finances and economic assets that produce the finances. To that goal, if we need to occupy some territory, conduct assassinations or support insurgency we should do that without hesitation irrespective of collateral damage or moral ramification in any land outside ours. If we are not equipped or organized that way, we need to build that up and have the ability to do it. If a country with a population of 10 millions people (Israel) can do that. Why cannot we do that?

[Cyrano]

^^^ Spoken like a BRFite! Sareen I mean

[A_Gupta]

Alleged links with Hamas and Bangladesh.
https://youtu.be/93pnWLgB4qo?si=2vA7cYis7j9x-V-4

[Amber G.]

Steps (documenting):

Diplomatic Relations: India downgraded diplomatic ties with Pakistan, accusing Islamabad of having a hand in the Pahalgam terror attack.
Indus Water Treaty: India held the Indus Waters Treaty in abeyance with immediate effect until Pakistan ceases support for terrorism.
Visa Suspension: India suspended all kinds of visas for Pakistani nationals, asking them to leave the country by April 27 (medical visas valid till April 29).
Diplomat Expulsion: Pakistan's top diplomats in India were handed persona non grata, and three military attaches were expelled.
Staff Reduction: Pakistan's high commission staff in New Delhi was reduced from 55 to 30.
Border Crossing: The Integrated Check Post at Attari was shut, and those who crossed over with valid endorsements were directed to return through that route before May 1.
Military Exercises: Indian Navy tested a medium-range surface-to-air missile, and the Indian Air Force executed 'Exercise Aakraman', a comprehensive operational drill.
Army Operations: The Defence Ministry allowed the Army to fly 'Dhruv' advanced light helicopters in Srinagar and adjoining areas for counter-terror operations.
Border Security: Civilian movement near the border was halted, and the Beating Retreat ceremony at the Attari border was scaled down.
All-Party Meeting: The Centre held an all-party meeting, where leaders unanimously condemned the attack and expressed solidarity with the government's zero-tolerance policy toward terrorism.

[Amber G.]

Two more houses of Pakistan sponsored Kashmiri Muslim terrorists have been destroyed in Kashmir valley. Ahsan ul Haq Sheikh’s house in Murran of Pulwama, South Kashmir and house of LeT terrorist Haris Ahmad was destroyed in a blast in Kachipora area of Pulwama:

[Amber G.]

Bilawal Bhutto is speaking the language of Hafiz Saeed who has issued the same threat few years ago.

Meanwhile Baloch rebels release footage of eliminating 10 Pak forces personnel in Margat today

[Amber G.]

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas writes to Indian President; condemns the 'heinous act'..

[Amber G.]

Pakistani Journalist SHUT DOWN in White House ..

[Rudradev]

Some people want aar paar ki ladai leading to total decapitation of TSP— impractical for obvious reasons.

Some people say— a short sharp limited engagement that gives TSPA a bloody nose. Fine (assuming all goes according to our limited escalation plan). But also of little use. India can keep giving TSPA jhaapads... TSPA can keep absorbing them, rewriting history & brainwashing its public while continuing its jihad against India. So nothing gained in the medium to long term.

I suggest a 3rd option. Take this opportunity to inflict on TSP a cut that bleeds profusely and never stops bleeding. Let the blood loss, cumulative over time, do its work and take them out in the long term (we don't have to do all the harm in one shot).

IWT and follow ups are one such option. FATF & economic measures will be another.

On the military front, do what Turkey did in Syria. "Liberated zones" of territory like in Idlib & Afrin where TSPA cannot operate or supply through, TSPAF cannot fly over, anti-TSPA insurgent ground forces can resupply/regroup, and new assaults can be staged from. In the Syrian case these were nominally held by HTS and other Ankara-sponsored insurgent militias... but all the tech, ADS, and everything there was operated by Turkish army personnel.

Can't we support BLA and/or TTP along the lines of this model?

Right now we may not have the opportunity or scope to give Pakistan a wound that is immediately lethal... but we should definitely give Pakistan a wound from which it can never recover.

[williams]

I suggest a 3rd option. Take this opportunity to inflict on TSP a cut that bleeds profusely and never stops bleeding. Let the blood loss, cumulative over time, do its work and take them out in the long term (we don't have to do all the harm in one shot).

IWT and follow ups are one such option. FATF & economic measures will be another.

On the military front, do what Turkey did in Syria. "Liberated zones" of territory like in Idlib & Afrin where TSPA cannot operate or supply through, TSPAF cannot fly over, anti-TSPA insurgent ground forces can resupply/regroup, and new assaults can be staged from. In the Syrian case these were nominally held by HTS and other Ankara-sponsored insurgent militias... but all the tech, ADS, and everything there was operated by Turkish army personnel.

Can't we support BLA and/or TTP along the lines of this model?

Right now we may not have the opportunity or scope to give Pakistan a wound that is immediately lethal... but we should definitely give Pakistan a wound from which it can never recover.

That should be the strategy, if we cannot do a total decapitation. IWT seems to be a done deal. HM has already started up a plan to shut it down quickly. FATF came through well until Biden admin deep state killed it. We need to restart that with the seemingly friendly Trump admin. We also need to use our influence in WB and IMF to stop the currency bailouts.

We also need to come with some sneak attacks on a continuous basis. The pattern like Atlantique shoot down should be pursued - giving free hand to our armed forces and intelligence units. Basically where we find easy opportunities to bring down a major Paki asset we should bring it down without impunity.

[williams]

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... mir-attack

it is time India turn on the screws with UN. This agency is completely useless and is generally there to support Islamic terrorists.

[Amber G.]

BLA statement on killing 10 Pakistan Army soldiers in an IED blast in Quetta of Balochistan. Five photos of the eliminated Pakistan Army soldiers. Asim Munir unable to protect his soldiers. Morale of Pakistan Army at its lowest.

[A_Gupta]

Decapitation of Pakistan can no more be done in a few weeks than setting up a bullet train.

India has to use this opportunity to build the capability to control almost totally the flow of water from the Himalayan rivers into Pakistan - a four to six years task if tackled with urgency.

If India can push Pakistan onto the FATF grey or black list that would be a win.

india should get agreement from Afghanistan that it will respect the around 100-km section of the Durand line that touches Kashmir (currently PoK ) and agree that neither side recognizes the rest. India must also deftly keep any nukes from falling into the hands of the Taliban.

Diplomatic support for the Baloch is a must.

[S_Madhukar]

We need some more tricks. The Djinnahs can fly to heaven making Zimbabwe seem like a cheap and cheerful place to live. Hafeez can trade in Corans

[RCase]

The fault line between Dimran and his supporters (including those factions in the Army) and the TSPA and the current political dispensations should be leveraged so that they fight each other (1/2 front).
If possible, declare/ enforce no-fly zone over POK/ GB. Any Paki aircraft is fair game to be shot down or missiles fired at it. (This is Indian territory, after all)!
Encourage (1) Baluch and (2) KPK factions in their independence struggle. Let the (3) Sindhis fight the Panjabi's over water. This can become a four and half way fight for TSPA. Stretch them thin and tire them out. If they beef up LoC, they lose Balochistan faster and possibly Sindh. Try countering the no-fly zone, they lose the KPK front.

Pakistan is not a migraine. Treating the symptoms with surgical strikes, FATF, etc. is the wrong cure.

It is a brain cancer. The only permanent 'cure' is its death. Meanwhile, any interim cure to give it a modicum of survivability involves major surgery (Remove the tumor - TSPA), Chemo and Radiation (deradicalization - ruthless destruction of radical islamists and terrorists and denuclearization) and morphine (containment of a neutered Pakjab awam and re-education). Permanent remission only possible with natural remedies (Ghar wapsi).

[A_Gupta]

The guarantee of continued good behavior from what is Pakistan is that their water can be cut off at any time. Deradicalizing 250 million people is beyond even Allah's powers; they will seek to lynch Him for blasphemy should He suggest it. And also burn down some KFCs and McDonalds for also being the Yehudi deity.

For the shorter run I don't claim to know what military action will take place and what action will be fruitful. Perhaps taking PoK will sink the Paki army in the eyes of its aawaam.

What India can do that Pakistan has very little capability to respond **in kind** is the economic stranglehold.

The second is insurgencies - Pakistan can provoke insurgencies in India, but India has the advantage of treating insurgencies as political problems; Pakistan treats them as military problems. May a thousand insurgencies bloom in dry soil of Pakistan!

The third is solving the Durand line once and for all, to the advantage of the Afghans.

[nishant.gupta]

I have a possibility which I would like to put forward:

Since we already know about the terrorist hideouts and at the very least, we have to neutralize them, we do it with a lot of fanfare. In addition, we openly support and assist the Balochis to take back Balochistan. Declare that we recognize them as a separate country. We not only give the Pakistanis a country that is half of what it was but also disconnect Gwadar (and hence the reason why China has its BRI). PA will end up trying to figure which side of the border they should fight.

We previously halved them in 71. They did not dare do anything for next 2-3 decades. Similar cut and they will end up weaker in the eyes of their own public and then we can sit back and squeeze the POK as well as Indus water as and when we feel like. I dont think Balochistan gets any water from the Indus basin and we have a nice friendly neighbor on the other side of Pakistan with an alternate route all the way to Central Asia. Gives us power to negotiate with Iran as well in future if needed.

Thoughts?

[ramana]

^^^ Spoken like a BRFite! Sareen I mean

many experts visit the site over the years.

[ramana]

Decapitation of Pakistan can no more be done in a few weeks than setting up a bullet train.

India has to use this opportunity to build the capability to control almost totally the flow of water from the Himalayan rivers into Pakistan - a four to six years task if tackled with urgency.

If India can push Pakistan onto the FATF grey or black list that would be a win.

india should get agreement from Afghanistan that it will respect the around 100-km section of the Durand line that touches Kashmir (currently PoK ) and agree that neither side recognizes the rest. India must also deftly keep any nukes from falling into the hands of the Taliban.

Diplomatic support for the Baloch is a must.

Pak doesn't have any big nukes. The recent test claimed can put a tactical nuke.
And that's not credible.
New redlines are IWT and blocked Karachi harbor.
IWT is being held in abeyance.
As we write IN taskforce is deployed off Karachi waters.
As for nuke threats bring them on

[RCase]

Yulia Petrova is pretty popular in the Russian-Ukrainian circles with her tarot card predictions about the war between Russia and Ukraine. So far, her predictions on that war has been pretty accurate and people from both sides follow her (she is originally from Odessa, Ukraine, but her readings are neutral). She doesn't know much about the India Pakistan issues, but in this reading she ventured to predict the turn of events with the two countries. It is pretty interesting about her observations.

The Youtube video is in Russian. For those of you who understand Russian, great. For others, you can use the Settings | Subtitles | Auto Translate -> English. The subtitles will show up in English and is pretty good. The Indo Pak content starts from 5:30 onwards.

https://www.youtube.com/live/ISrCxaDJwd ... A69N&t=530

Key points:
- India and Pakistan are in a karmic knot
- Water is a problem (she has no clue about IWT)
- War is inevitable
- Pakistan doesn't have a strategy
- Islam supremacy fuels their thought process from scriptural doctrine (Ghazwa-e-Hind)
- Aided and abetted by two countries with Stars on their flags! (China and Turkey)
- Pakistan is like a weakling entering a boxing ring that will get thrashed
- Pak is probably nook nude!
- There will be no nuclear flashpoint
- Water may be poisoned (or should that be interpreted as water deprivation?)
- Food scarcity in Pak
- I was not clear if there was an indication of financial tranche (IMF tranche?)

[Amber G.]

Diplomatic front: (Breaking news)

UN Security Council Calls for the "

need to hold perpetrators, organizers, financiers and sponsors of this reprehensible act of terrorism accountable and bring them to justice

"

United Security council issues statement condemning the J&K attack; Extends condolences to Indian, Nepal Govt

[bala]

Looks like the Kashmiris are happy that IWT has been placed in abeyance. The waters in indus river reasi dam can be diverted elsewhere like ladakh.

With the Pukis maybe in exchange for them leaving PoJK India can ease of water supply. Going forward however only good behavior would guarantee water supply.

ASim Munir will be perhaps remembered as the one who caused the break up of Puke land. BLA has effectively wrested Baluchistan from Puke Land. Only a matter of time the rest will be gone, leaving behind a bitter PakJabi faction.

[Deans]

A question to Deans ji and others, Tushar Gupta a well known handle in X also suggest canal network in Northern India to divert the Indus water system. But he mentioned that it could be a double edged sword because China can covertly flood the entire system and flood and destroy our urban and populated centres. Any comments on it?
https://x.com/aravind/status/1915803791 ... aEWmw&s=19

Those imagining it will take 10-15 years for India to implement the suspension of Indus water treaty and cause issues to Pakistan in comments to the below post are mistaken.

A drop of even 40% in their water will cause severe issues and this is achievable in a year.

We don't need old tech like expensive dams. Simple canals and prefab pipeworks by our army engg corps can achieve it soon.

My prediction: Large parts of Rajasthan will become green in 5 years as Pakistan becomes a desert and breaks up, if it choses to be a terrorist state.

We can't do canals to divert water (apart from minor projects and local irrigation), it will take decades, cost a lot and is inadvisable in the unstable Himalayas. Some of the water we will save on the projects we plan to do, can go the SY canal (a project we have to restart), or the Indira Gandhi canal in Rajasthan.
In theory, China can dam the waters of the Brahmaputra, but the biggest loser will be their new ally Bangladesh,
If they divert the water of the Indus Pakistan loses a lot more than India.

[Deans]

I have a possibility which I would like to put forward:

Since we already know about the terrorist hideouts and at the very least, we have to neutralize them, we do it with a lot of fanfare. In addition, we openly support and assist the Balochis to take back Balochistan. Declare that we recognize them as a separate country. We not only give the Pakistanis a country that is half of what it was but also disconnect Gwadar (and hence the reason why China has its BRI). PA will end up trying to figure which side of the border they should fight.

Thoughts?

Better to let the Balochis and Pashtuns fight the Pak state endlessly. If we recognise Baluchistan (when the BLA is considered a terrorist organization
in some countries) we will be alone and only look silly.

[Cain Marko]

This is HUGE development . Tulsi Gabbard (US President Donald Trump’s Director of National Intelligence ) clearly says US will support India to hunt down those responsible for this heinous Pahalgam terror attack.

We stand in solidarity with India in the wake of the horrific Islamist terrorist attack, targeting and killing 26 Hindus in Pahalgam. My prayers and deepest sympathies are with those who lost a loved one, PM @narendramodi, and with all the people of India. We are with you and support you as you hunt down those responsible for this heinous attack.

Can India just do a Qasim Suleimani type move on some top TSPA or ISI leadership. Especially since they don't seem to be that popular in any case.

[Amber G.]

Pakistan’s military proxy is retreating ..

[Deans]

A sobering thought if we are looking at military action.
If it happens, it will most likely be across the LOC, since it is now disputed area.
That will mean infantry. There is no place along the LOC where we can use mechanized forces. The area is Jammu where we can, is the International
border. The LOC starts in the mountains.

We have approx 410 Infantry battalions in the Indian army.
We are short of at least 100,000 men in the army. Gen Bakshi puts the shortage at 150,000.
Assuming 100k short, it would mean an infantry shortage of at least 25,000 men. (30 battalions).
The equivalent of 30 infantry battalions are the RR (60 battalions, of which half are infantry)

So, a 15% shortage in the infantry (60 of 410).
In Kashmir, we have 7 divisions deployed - from Kargil (8th Mountain) to Jammu, or about 70 infantry battalions.
We have the equivalent of 5 divisions in the RR, deployed for counter insurgency.

Pak has the equivalent of 4 divisions and five brigades along the LOC. Plus irregular forces.
To make up our shortage, we need 10 more battalions (15% of 70) immediately.
This will mean transferring 1 division from the East.

If we have to have even local fire and manpower superiority (like in Kargil), we need to move two of our three artillery divisions to Kashmir.
That gives four artillery brigades in addition to the three at corps level (one each with XIV, XV and XVI corps. That would mean one artillery brigade
for every division.

We would also have to transfer at least one more division, to increase the effective strength of the infantry along the LOC.
What we have available to transfer is 23 Infantry division in Ranchi and One of the three divisions of III Corps in the North East.

Jaidev Jamwal who is on this forum, is an authority on Pakistan's order of battle.

[Amber G.]

Pakistani Army Chief to address an event later today....

Wonder do Indian Army know that location....

[Cyrano]

Gents our objective is very simple.

We need Kashmir to thrive normally without any Islamic terrorists killing and threatening day to day living.
We need India to thrive with out any Islamic terrorist threats.
...

All other external objectives achieved, we will still need all of Jammu and Kashmir to become a Hindu majority state/UT for it to remain peaceful. This will be real test of how far the BJP and Modi ji are willing to go to achieve lasting peace.

[Amber G.]

Full blown Anti India rhetoric by Pakistani Army Chief & Pakistani PM. Pakistan PM terms Kashmir as 'Jugular vein', warns of response if Indus waters are diverted...

Meanwhile Pakistan PM says open to participating in 'any neutral, transparent probe on Pahalgam attack

[Mukhi]

@Deans Ji

How does this equation change with full use of Air Force.

[Hriday]

A sobering thought if we are looking at military action.
If it happens, it will most likely be across the LOC, since it is now disputed area.
That will mean infantry. There is no place along the LOC where we can use mechanized forces. The area is Jammu where we can, is the International
border. The LOC starts in the mountains.

Deans ji, an all out infantry war in mountain will cause huge casualties for us. Pakistan will be waiting with anti-personnel mines, suicidal FPV drones, rockets and machine guns well concealed amongst the thick vegetation across the hills. Even if we get air superiority it is hard to find them. VatsRohit had detailed writing on retaking POK. As per him, it is a very difficult task requiring exceptionally large numbers of helicopters and troops. For now, I can't find where is that article or X thread. But taking relatively barren hills will be easier but here again providing them protection and logistics will be a problem.

My suggestion is to do continuous salami slicing on POK during peacetime.

Alternatively, take possession of huge land across the plains; we need not send soldiers there but shoot anyone intruding into it.

The best course seems to do a limited air and naval war and, in addition, target ammunition and missiles stocks. We had a clear superiority now in air and naval power and with a duration of less than a day. If we repeat such mini wars once or twice per year then Pakistan will be easier to handle.

[nachiket]

A sobering thought if we are looking at military action.
If it happens, it will most likely be across the LOC, since it is now disputed area.
That will mean infantry. There is no place along the LOC where we can use mechanized forces. The area is Jammu where we can, is the International
border. The LOC starts in the mountains.

We have approx 410 Infantry battalions in the Indian army.
We are short of at least 100,000 men in the army. Gen Bakshi puts the shortage at 150,000.
Assuming 100k short, it would mean an infantry shortage of at least 25,000 men. (30 battalions).
The equivalent of 30 infantry battalions are the RR (60 battalions, of which half are infantry)
....

Manpower requirement would depend on the objective. What is the objective that you are looking at in this scenario? If it's capturing and holding territory, how much and in which sector?

[drnayar]

Pakistani Army Chief to address an event later today....

Wonder do Indian Army know that location....

Maybe a Brahmos accidentally launched..but the point is he would then become a matyr.. we don't want that..need a response that will reduce their capabilities both militarily and economically through generations.. the kinetic is actually only for show..a properly implemented IWT withdrawal will bring down their gdp by around 10 %. Next would be ramping up covert activities., a free baluchistan.....anyone thinking there might be another power hoping a full fledged war can heel India a bit ..downgrade it's economic progress ?... our response needs to measured and hit where it hurts.

[nachiket]

Medical visas should have been stopped long ago. I remember in Sushma Swaraj's time, a visa applicant had to produce a letter from the Pak govt that the desired treatment was unavailable in Pak. Pak H&D did not permit such a letter being issued.
I'd bet my last penny that not all the visa holders return to Pak.

Unfortunately our society is cursed with a widespread trait of suicidal empathy towards even the most implacable foes. Even now sob stories of paki children who were brought to India for treatments and transplants are being spread on social media and we have a large section of Indians feeling sorry for them and asking that their visas should not be canceled. These nitwits do not pause for a moment to question why paki children need to be treated in India in the first place. Their country clearly has more than enough money to arm and train thousands of terrorists for decades just to come and murder our people, but they don't have money to build hospitals? Also if a paki is receiving a transplant in India it means the organ came from an Indian as well and is now being given to a paki while there is a long waiting list for our own people who need it.

At the end of the day though I will always blame the government. No matter how stupid the people can be nobody twisted the government's hands and forced them to keep giving out these visas. They should have stopped all visas except for diplomatic visas for embassy staff years ago. There is no reason whatsoever to let a single paki into the country.

[bala]

This YT is claiming that Chenab river flow has been stopped.

In a high-level Cabinet Committee on Security meeting, the decision was made to stop the flow of water from the Baglihar Hydroelectric Power Plant on the Chenab River. Visuals have also emerged from the Salal Dam as tensions rise.

youtube.com/watch?v=Wn81GK_VhaE

[Cyrano]

I feel we are not analysing enough the psychology of Pak forces and people before concluding that kinetic options cannot succeed. Fanatics do not make good fighters when we take the fight to them. Seeing such defeatist comments like
We don't have enough soldiers
We don't have enough aircraft
We don't have enough this or that
We don't have a big enough economy
...
Tells me we are not having the will to fight.
We should pause and think to realise that if the bikhari Pakis with their ragtag orbat can provoke India repeatedly knowing that they cannot survive a riposte, then they are counting on precisely this kind of thinking from indian establishment.

Our shatru bodh is indeed appalling.

Knowledgeable folks here should try and put themselves in paki establishment shoes and see what is the most scary thing for you if India ripostes. Then hopefully we will get somewhere.

[nachiket]

https://x.com/TheRealDharm/status/19160 ... 7UMzw&s=19

A massive operation could be launched within 48 hours as India prepares to take strong action.

The Indian Army is fully prepared, reports Zee News.

Something big is coming..

See the Zee news clip in the link.

One of two things is true.

1. Zee news has no info whatsoever about what the govt. and IA are planning and when and they are doing this for getting views.
2. They somehow do have real information about the timing of any action in which case the people who decided to broadcast that news should be locked up for treason or alternatively institutionalized for being absolute cretins.