Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

[pravula]

As long as DRDO keeps using IAF to launch/test their products, IAF will look like they are contributing to local production. If MOD wants to castrate IAF, then let DRDO and HAL have their own testing platforms. That will shine a light on IAF's GSQR (or whatever them alphabets are) and their impotence when it comes to planning more than a day's worth of itinerary.

[Aditya_V]

You are making as if 100% of the IAF is against Indigenization, it is probably % across the Forces, IAS, Babus, Politicians, commission agents, Media etc. an ecosystem which has some influence on GOI decisions.

It is precisely IAF personal working with DRDO in Testing weapons like Gaurav, programmes run by some good GOI Babus. Lets not tarnish the name of forces as a whole.

[ernest]

You are making as if 100% of the IAF is against Indigenization, it is probably % across the Forces, IAS, Babus, Politicians, commission agents, Media etc. an ecosystem which has some influence on GOI decisions.

This should be understood by everyone. No such thing like X org is against indegenization, Y org is corrupt, Z org is inefficient. there are people of all kinds across orgs, and they cooperate for their shared incentives. You'll find scientists, pilots, bureaucrats, engineers, politicians, civilians, journalists for atmanirbharta, and also against it for their own reasons.

What the top level of leaders need to do is create incentives for atmanirbharta, and it will strengthen the right kind of people across organizations.

The simplest of this is financial incentive. Have a large capex dedicated to domestic products only, for example. The govt has made some progress in this direction by the indegenization lists and idex programs and so on.

Second kind of incentive (which Saurav Jha talked about in his IAH) is to have indeginezation efforts as one of the components of annual reviews and promotions.

[nachiket]

Rakesh ji, some questions. Do you mean SU-30 used the SAP-14 escort jammer to counter F-16? I thought they were used only for the protection of a relatively large group of fighters. Also recently several members here commented about how having the large SAP-518 SPJ severely restricts the hard manoeuvering of SU-30 MKI. So most likely SU-30 evaded the missiles using the SAP-518 and standard-level manoeuvering?

Saar, I too have read that the weight of the SAP pods on the Su-30MKI does put strain on manoeuvering. But those AMRAAMs were jammed, along with the Rambha taking evasive manoeuvering to avoid getting hit. I don't know more than that.

Rakesh, sorry to dig up an old post but I'd missed reading this thread for a long time and only just saw it. Is there any source for the claim that the AMRAAMs were defeated because of jamming? Sameer Joshi's twitter post which you referenced does not mention that.

Reason I ask is because it is entirely possible to defeat BVR missiles without jamming, although having the capability would certainly help. The mere fact that the two MKI's defeated them does not prove it was because of jamming or that they were even carrying the SAP-518's. But I'm curious if there were other posts especially from someone in the know mentioning this.

[Aditya_V]

Retd. ACM Dhanoa mentioned IAF used some tricks to make sure the AMRAAMS missed that day.

[Rakesh]

Rakesh, sorry to dig up an old post but I'd missed reading this thread for a long time and only just saw it. Is there any source for the claim that the AMRAAMs were defeated because of jamming? Sameer Joshi's twitter post which you referenced does not mention that.

Reason I ask is because it is entirely possible to defeat BVR missiles without jamming, although having the capability would certainly help. The mere fact that the two MKI's defeated them does not prove it was because of jamming or that they were even carrying the SAP-518's. But I'm curious if there were other posts especially from someone in the know mentioning this.

See this post from KaranM... ---> viewtopic.php?p=2337688#p2337688

...and I am highlighting the relevant portion here....

And all AMRAAMs fired at Su-30s miss. Here are the options.
1. Clearly the F-16 radars did not guide the missiles in. So either they were jammed or were avoiding the Su-30s in turn. Conclusion> Su-30s held off a larger force of F-16s in BVR
2. AMRAAM missiles could not get a lock-on to the Su-30s. So either their initial cues were hopelessly wrong, or they were jammed/countermeasured by the Su-30s. Either way, Su-30s defeated AMRAAMs.

Sameer Joshi posted this tweet (dated 24 Jan 2022) on the IAF vs PAF duel that occurred on 27 Feb 2019.

https://x.com/joe_sameer/status/1588347324593762304 ---> 2 x Su-30MKIs from the No 15 Sqn 'Flying Lances' of IAF as Defensive Counter Air (DCA) held upto 12 x F-16 OCA of @DGPR_PAF at bay on 27 Feb 2019. A peek into this elite Flanker squadron of the IAF, where jets from the squadron are taking part in India's 75th Republic Day celebrations

Sameer Joshi then posted this tweet (dated 03 Nov 2022) on the same duel.

https://x.com/joe_sameer/status/1588347324593762304 ---> Two Su-30MKIs from No 15 Squadron duelled with 8 F-16s on 27 Feb 2019 & held their own. The Avenger formation crew have a beer bash every time the PAF ceremonial parade honours its fake MKI kill at the Operation Swift Retort memorial in Sargodha AFB, hoping for an invite to attend one day.

=================================

So what is special about No 15 Squadron, that Sameer Joshi labels it as elite? The squadron is among the IAF's premier EW squadrons. Prior to operating the Rambha, they were the sole squadron that operated the MiG-21 in the recon role. With the Rambha, No 15's choice of platform is the SAP-514 and SAP-518. These are being replaced, with their heavy weight being one of the issues. See this link ---> https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... oser-look/

By the way, the same squadron took part in the strike on Balakot the day earlier, by providing air support to the Mirage 2000s.

Post the duel, badges were created for No 15 Squadron and No 51 Squadron. See below.

Image Source: Commemorating the strike: Abhinandan’s Squadron now Falcon

[Rakesh]

KaranM can certainly add a lot more to this discussion. I will point him to this thread…

[nachiket]

See this post from KaranM... ---> viewtopic.php?p=2337688#p2337688

...and I am highlighting the relevant portion here....

And all AMRAAMs fired at Su-30s miss. Here are the options.
1. Clearly the F-16 radars did not guide the missiles in. So either they were jammed or were avoiding the Su-30s in turn. Conclusion> Su-30s held off a larger force of F-16s in BVR
2. AMRAAM missiles could not get a lock-on to the Su-30s. So either their initial cues were hopelessly wrong, or they were jammed/countermeasured by the Su-30s. Either way, Su-30s defeated AMRAAMs.

Thanks. Your ability to find old posts is second to none. It would have taken me ages to search for that. I was trying to make a sortof similar point as well. That the use of SPJ in defeating the missiles is certainly a possibility but by no means essential or certain. It would be possible to achieve the same results without that with careful maneuvering. Especially since it seems likely that at least 3 of the the AMRAAMS were fired at very long range, possibly near their max head-on engagement range.

What gave me pause though is Sameer Joshi's contention that the fourth AMRAAM was defeated despite Avenger 1 being inside the MAR. That would be quite an achievement, requiring some truly extreme maneuvering along with a bit of luck not to mention nerves of steel in the cockpit. Even if they were carrying jamming pods they would be of limited use at that range and during rapid turns etc. when neither the receiver nor the transmitter might be even pointed at the missile.

So what is special about No 15 Squadron, that Sameer Joshi labels it as elite? The squadron is among the IAF's premier EW squadrons. Prior to operating the Rambha, they were the sole squadron that operated the MiG-21 in the recon role. With the Rambha, No 15's choice of platform is the SAP-514 and SAP-518. These are being replaced, with their heavy weight being one of the issues. See this link ---> https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... oser-look/

Interesting. I had not made that connection.

[prashantsharma]

Couple of additional points - the Su could have also used the mountains and valleys to hide themselves, break the lock and escape.
At the end of its flight the amraam is coasting and is subsonic if i am not mistaken, so it can be evaded by engaging AB and turning away
Did IAF ever find the wreckage of the amraams some of which must have surely fallen inside Bharat?

[Aditya_V]

IAF has public ally displayed 1 AMRAAM wreckage in a Media Briefing, the PAKI ISPR was initially claiming no F-16's used on 27 Feb 19 - aircraft were shot down by JF-17 and SD-10, then claimed wreckage was from lot sold to Taiwan, when US Govt documents showed serial no belonged to lot sold to Pakistan- the entire ecosystem went quiet.

After sometime, they awarded F-16 Pilots for shooting down MIG 21 Bison with an AMRAAM and lesser award for XYZ pilot for shooting down a SU-30 MKI.

But for 2 days the entire Paki Ecosystem was certain Su-30 MKI was downed but latter shut up when they realised they had all missed with 1 missile being fired at pretty close range.

Even in the Russia Ukraine after the Ukraine counteroffensive in Sep22, they recovered a SU 30SM with a SAP514 which the Russians had left.
The US Government/Pentagon were very interested and had shifted the POD to the USA as they wanted to know more about how its Jamming worked.

I believe the US wanted to know how the Missile known as Slammer missed with such overwhelming odds the PAF had for 5 mins that day. After the F-16 Shootdown and with More IAF Su-30 MKI, MIg 29's, M-2000, Mig 21 Bison incoming the entire 28 PAF Aircraft lit afterburners and ran to their airbases and the PAKI Army Tank brigade near Sialkot was Running on civilian roads destroying infrastructure.

[Hriday]

In Grok 3 search, it says,

Additional sources, such as EurAsian Times: SU-30 MKI Shot Down AMRAAM Missiles Fired From Pakistan's F-16's, mention the SU-30MKI shooting down AMRAAM missiles, implying BVR combat, but do not specify the exact distance.

[Aditya_V]

I don't think Eurasian times is reliable- they do not have a proper quote here

[Hriday]

^^
FWIW, can't find Business Today article.
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/su-30-mki ... air-force/

The Indian Airforce says that it shot down AMRAAM Missiles fired from Pakistan’s F-16 Fighter Jets. The AMRAAM Missiles allegedly missed their intended targets and in fact, one of them was shot down by an IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKI air dominance fighter. EurAsian Times brings to you a report from Business Today.

[Roop]

IAF has public ally displayed 1 AMRAAM wreckage in a Media ...

... and the PAKI Army Tank brigade near Sialkot was Running on civilian roads destroying infrastructure.

Yes, I distinctly remember both these incidents now; they were widely discussed on this forum. Thanks for the reminder.

That Eurasia Times report about "shooting down AMRAAMs" is speculative sensation-mongering b/s. I think the AMRAAMs were simply defeated by the IAF by EW measures and/or aerodynamic maneuvering (the so-called "go hot / go cold" techniques) by the Su30-MKIs. The AMRAAMs lost lock (if they ever had it), ran out of fuel and kinetic energy and fell harmlessly to ground.

I shudder to think of what would have happened that day if a single IAF plane had been shot down in Indian airspace, or if the PAF had succeeded in landing even a single item of ordinance on an Indian ground target. A full-on war would have resulted -- guaranteed. As it was, even without those triggers, India was ready to go to war within 24 hrs if Abhinandan had not been freed and returned home unharmed. Several friendly neutral nations had been asked (by us) to convey this warning to Pakistan, and obviously the Pakis took these warnings seriously.

[drnayar]

IAF has public ally displayed 1 AMRAAM wreckage in a Media ...

... and the PAKI Army Tank brigade near Sialkot was Running on civilian roads destroying infrastructure.

Yes, I distinctly remember both these incidents now; they were widely discussed on this forum. Thanks for the reminder.

That Eurasia Times report about "shooting down AMRAAMs" is speculative sensation-mongering b/s. I think the AMRAAMs were simply defeated by the IAF by EW measures and/or aerodynamic maneuvering (the so-called "go hot / go cold" techniques) by the Su30-MKIs. The AMRAAMs lost lock (if they ever had it), ran out of fuel and kinetic energy and fell harmlessly to ground.

I shudder to think of what would have happened that day if a single IAF plane had been shot down in Indian airspace, or if the PAF had succeeded in landing even a single item of ordinance on an Indian ground target. A full-on war would have resulted -- guaranteed. As it was, even without those triggers, India was ready to go to war within 24 hrs if Abhinandan had not been freed and returned home unharmed. Several friendly neutral nations had been asked (by us) to convey this warning to Pakistan, and obviously the Pakis took these warnings seriously.

Quite right , apparently a full complement of around 30 nuclear capable Agni missiles and the IN fleet were all on standby for an all out war, pakistan would have ceased to exist !

[srai]

Tutorial on BVR escape maneuver- “notch”

[nachiket]

^^
FWIW, can't find Business Today article.
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/su-30-mki ... air-force/

The Indian Airforce says that it shot down AMRAAM Missiles fired from Pakistan’s F-16 Fighter Jets. The AMRAAM Missiles allegedly missed their intended targets and in fact, one of them was shot down by an IAF Sukhoi Su-30MKI air dominance fighter. EurAsian Times brings to you a report from Business Today.

Long ago we had a popular term on BRF called DDM - Desi Dork Media - to describe clueless journalists reporting on defence matters without bothering to understanding anything about the domain and predictably churning out absolute drivel. For example I remember one particularly hilarious article which mentioned Akash missiles with "nuclear capability" . Things are much better now in the Defence reporting space but this Eurasian times claim makes me want to bring that term back.

[Rakesh]

Couple of additional points - the Su could have also used the mountains and valleys to hide themselves, break the lock and escape.
At the end of its flight the amraam is coasting and is subsonic if i am not mistaken, so it can be evaded by engaging AB and turning away
Did IAF ever find the wreckage of the amraams some of which must have surely fallen inside Bharat?

Yes to the bolded part....

India produces proof, rubbishes Pakistan claim that F-16s weren’t used across LoC
https://theprint.in/defence/india-produ ... oc/199723/
29 Feb 2019

Image Caption: Air force spokesperson Group Captain Anupam Banerjee with debris of the AIM-120 missile which was fired by the Pakistani F-16.

[Manish_P]

I don't think Eurasian times is reliable- they do not have a proper quote here

I used to think the Eurasian times was China owned

Apparently the founding members are indian origin persons and it is based out of Canada.

Have not found it very reliable though. A lot of articles seemed superficial or just sensationalist.

[prashantsharma]

Thanks Aditya V and Rakesh for pointing out the recovery of amraam wreckage.
My memory needs a little sharpening!

[Rakesh]

Thanks. Your ability to find old posts is second to none. It would have taken me ages to search for that. I was trying to make a sortof similar point as well. That the use of SPJ in defeating the missiles is certainly a possibility but by no means essential or certain. It would be possible to achieve the same results without that with careful maneuvering. Especially since it seems likely that at least 3 of the the AMRAAMS were fired at very long range, possibly near their max head-on engagement range.

What gave me pause though is Sameer Joshi's contention that the fourth AMRAAM was defeated despite Avenger 1 being inside the MAR. That would be quite an achievement, requiring some truly extreme maneuvering along with a bit of luck not to mention nerves of steel in the cockpit. Even if they were carrying jamming pods they would be of limited use at that range and during rapid turns etc. when neither the receiver nor the transmitter might be even pointed at the missile.

Sorry for not responding earlier. You are welcome.

KaranM said he will be responding to your query over the weekend. Honestly, is the SME on this issue.

[srai]

https://codex.uoaf.net/index.php/Air-to ... munication


https://forum.warthunder.com/t/kings-of ... 42?page=36


https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/com ... _notching/


https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=54668


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 24.2403424


https://www.joaopadantas.com/files/dantas2021weapon.pdf


https://www.scientific.net/AMM.842.329.pdf

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1916832385112436969 ---> IAF Su-30MKI Aka "Mini-Bomber"

[Hriday]

^^
For those who wonder about the risky nature of dropping such unguided bombs, refer to Vivek _Ahuja's thrilling military scenario of the Indo-China war in the Possible Military Scenarios thread. IIRC, one scenario is the bombing of a Chinese military convoy, which is passing through roads on the side of hills.
A few Indian bombers suddenly popped out of hills and valleys, passed along the long convoy, dropped all the bombs and disappeared again in the next instance amongst the hills. What happens next is the continuing thunder of bombs exploding all over the convoy. Just imagine the destruction!!

Where is Vivek _Ahuja now?

[sohamn]

unless you can use the cover of hill and features well, and you dont have a high altitude enemy awac tracking you, you have no hope in hell to drop dumb bombs on your enemy. That era is over with mass proliferation of shoulder fired and short ranged sams.

[ritesh]

Cross posting...
https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1919975349632299248
IAF Su-30 proves its mettle again, despite being targeted today again by over 8 HQ-9BE SAMs and PL-15 BVR missiles of PAF, the IAF jet successfully dodged them all.

[Luit]

No harm in ordering more numbers of this aircraft and emergency sanction of indigenous upgrade.

[srai]

^^^
Only 12 more were ordered

[TVenky]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1916832385112436969 ---> IAF Su-30MKI Aka "Mini-Bomber"

For a much better mini bomber version, what if these FABs are replaced by SAAW ?.. How many SAAWs can be carried in total.. ?.

[Cybaru]

^^^
Only 12 more were ordered

Should have been 40 more in the new MKI-super avatar. A huge error on our part. But maybe they were saving for 40 new Rafales.

[ernest]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1916832385112436969 ---> IAF Su-30MKI Aka "Mini-Bomber"

For a much better mini bomber version, what if these FABs are replaced by SAAW ?.. How many SAAWs can be carried in total.. ?.

16 easily (4 each on 4 hardpoints), and more. I remember seeing some mockup like this.

[Luit]

^^^
Only 12 more were ordered

Should have been 40 more in the new MKI-super avatar. A huge error on our part. But maybe they were saving for 40 new Rafales.

HAL had proposed another 60 to be delivered by 2029-30. Perhaps, the file is gathering dust on some desk.

[srai]

3rd BrahMos Equipped SU-30MKI Squadron on Horizon by 2027 as IAF Readies 20 More Jets for This Game-changing Missile

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to significantly enhance its aerial strike capabilities with plans to integrate the formidable BrahMos-A air-launched cruise missile onto an additional 20 Su-30MKI fighter jets.

This initiative, undertaken by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and the IAF, follows the highly successful deployment of the missile system on its existing Su-30MKI fleet. Work on upgrading these aircraft is expected to commence later in 2025.

The BrahMos-A, a 2.5-ton supersonic cruise missile jointly developed by India and Russia, has already been fitted to approximately 40 Su-30MKI aircraft.

These modifications involve strengthening the aircraft's wings and reinforcing the undercarriage to handle the missile's considerable weight and launch dynamics.

The existing fleet of BrahMos-equipped Su-30MKIs plays a crucial role in India's strategic defence posture, providing the ability to conduct precision attacks on high-value targets on land and at sea from extended ranges, thereby enhancing aircraft survivability.

With the upcoming integration on 20 more fighters, the IAF's inventory of BrahMos-capable Su-30MKIs will increase to around 60. This expanded fleet will enable the formation of a third dedicated squadron for these advanced weapon systems.
…
According to official information, HAL is slated to begin the modification process at its Nashik facility later this year. The initial batch of these newly upgraded Su-30MKI fighters is anticipated to be delivered to the IAF by 2027.
…

[Rakesh]

3rd BrahMos Equipped SU-30MKI Squadron on Horizon by 2027 as IAF Readies 20 More Jets for This Game-changing Missile

https://x.com/sajaniaf/status/1924689340174844121 ---> If timelines of BrahMos integration on flanker is anything to go by, two of the three proposed platforms may retire before getting to fire NG.

[Manish_P]

Not directly related to the Su 30s per se but still

Boeing out, Lord Jagannath’s chariot in Kolkata gets Sukhoi fighter jet tyres

This year’s Rath Yatra in Kolkata will see Lord Jagannath’s chariot rolling on brand-new tyres designed for a Russian Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighter jet, marking the end of a two-decade hunt for a worthy replacement for its ageing Boeing 747 wheels.

The International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON) Kolkata, which organises the annual festival, confirmed the switch after years of struggling with worn-out tyres originally sourced from a jumbo jet. The new Sukhoi tyres, supplied by Indian manufacturer MRF, promise better stability and safety on Kolkata’s often uneven roads, some of which still have tram tracks.

The original tyres, fitted in 1977, were second-hand Boeing 747 wheels donated by an ISKCON member when the chariots were first built. Over time, they deteriorated, requiring frequent repairs. By 2005, organisers realised a full replacement was necessary but finding a match proved difficult, as per NDTV.

"We first approached Dunlop, but they had stopped making these tyres," said Radharamn Das, ISKCON Kolkata’s vice-president. "After extensive research, we found Sukhoi tires to be the best match.”

The challenge? Ensuring the new tyres could handle the chariot’s immense weight. "Finding a weighing scale for a massive chariot was a huge task. We eventually managed to weigh it and it came to about nine tonnes. Factoring in the weight of devotees on the chariot during the Yatra, we realised that the tires would need to support a weight of about 16 tonnes," Das explained, quoted NDTV.

"When I contacted MRF requesting Sukhoi tyres for the chariot, they didn't believe us at first," Das was quoted by TOI. "They even sent senior officials to Kolkata to inspect the chariot.”

The Sukhoi tyres, each 4 feet in diameter and weighing 110kg, matched the Boeing wheels in size but came with superior durability, having undergone rigorous speed and load tests for military use. "The only other client for these tyres is the Indian Air Force," Das quipped.

Priced at Rs 1.80 lakh for a set of four, the tyres were delivered earlier this year. A 24-km trial run confirmed they could handle the chariot’s weight without issues, NDTV reported.

The upgrade isn’t just about durability. The Sukhoi tyres will improve manoeuvrability, reduce strain on devotees pulling the chariot and minimise the risk of technical failures, a concern after last year’s steering snag, as per TOI.

Jai Jagganath

[williams]

^^^ I guess the dimension of the tire mattered. I thought It is an overkill to use the tires of a 34 ton aircraft for a 16 ton chariot . Also 1.8 lakh for a tire is dirt cheap. Commercial Boeing tire costs 6000 USD. If not done already, MRF needs to bid for export orders.