Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1893547030225805435 ---> Some Key Features of Tejas Mk2:

• No External RWR
• 6.5 Ton Payload (Tejas Mk1 is 3.5 Ton)
• Mission Endurance is 120 minutes
• 3,000Km range with drop tanks
• Eight BVR Missile can be carried at once, 10 if pushed (Dual Rack For Astra)
• RCS is 1/4th of Tejas Mk1
• Planned Rate of Production is 25 Aircraft/Year (modular design leading to faster production)
• Higher maintainability again due to modular design
• Better turn around time
• +9G Turns
• Internal Health Monitoring System
• MAWS (Missile Approach Warning System)
• IRST (Infra Red Search & Track)

https://x.com/Collosal_60/status/1893548263430635707 ---> How is the RCS 1/4th, with bigger air frame and no design changes when Tejas itself uses composites? 1/4th of 0.5 m² would be like 0.125 m², which is difficult to believe. A Su-57 has RCS of 0.1 m².

https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1893548714796474822 ---> The Program Director is claiming that they may use the same RAM coating being developed for AMCA.

[A Deshmukh]

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1893183054983667742 ---> With two 1,700 litre drop tanks, one 1,350 litre centre line drop tank and full internal fuel, MWF will have a range of 3,000 km. With 3 drop tanks, it can still carry six Astra BVRAAMs and 2 ASRAAMs. It's perfectly suited for long range high endurance CAP sorties.

This is an impressive capability.
But in this era of tech evolution I would like to think - do we need a manned plane for a CAP?
Can Ghatak version or CATS version or some other derivative/new autonomous plane takeover CAP role?
we do have a lot of building blocks in place - Kaveri (as is), stealth design (Ghatak), radars, missiles (Astra).
easiest/fastest way would be to convert Tejas Mk1A itself (and then Tejas Mk2) into unmanned CAP patroller.

[Manish_P]

https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1893547030225805435 ---> Some Key Features of Tejas Mk2:
...
• RCS is 1/4th of Tejas Mk1
...

Very interested to know how they plan to achieve this without much change in the design/shape and with addition of canards.

[arvin]

Maybe they reduced the engine fan visibility due to elongated fuselage .

[fanne]

I have not seen any pic that says that mk1a has exposed blades. By definition, single engine planes usually have y ducts, shielding the blades. It can be seen as you say for not so long planes, but mk1a is long enough. Ready to be corrected

[Manish_P]

From what I have read and understood (mostly from BRF) the major points which affect RCS are shaping (includes engine blade exposure), hardpoints (weapons, sensors/probes, fuel tanks etc) and RAM coating. And jamming. But the first 3 being passive are the most critical.

So to get to 1/4 th RCS, without any significant changes to the first 3 parameters, seems highly improbable to my non-engineer, layman understanding.

Now any improvement makes the jingo in me happy.

A reduction to 1/4th would make me deliriously ecstatic

[drnayar]

I have not seen any pic that says that mk1a has exposed blades. By definition, single engine planes usually have y ducts, shielding the blades. It can be seen as you say for not so long planes, but mk1a is long enough. Ready to be corrected

No DSI for mk2..that's confirmed

[Rakesh]

This is an impressive capability.
But in this era of tech evolution I would like to think - do we need a manned plane for a CAP?
Can Ghatak version or CATS version or some other derivative/new autonomous plane takeover CAP role?
we do have a lot of building blocks in place - Kaveri (as is), stealth design (Ghatak), radars, missiles (Astra).
easiest/fastest way would be to convert Tejas Mk1A itself (and then Tejas Mk2) into unmanned CAP patroller.

from google chacha...

A "combat air patrol" (CAP) refers to a military aviation mission where fighter aircraft continuously patrol a designated airspace to intercept and neutralize enemy aircraft before they reach their target, effectively protecting friendly forces on the ground or at sea by providing air defense; essentially, it's a standing airborne patrol designed to deter and engage hostile aircraft at the furthest possible distance from their intended target.

So while tech has evolved and that too dramatically, we are still fairly new to the world of AI/autonomous CAP missions, using pilotless aircraft. Till that tech is matured and proven, manned CAP missions will still occur. Therefore, Tejas Mk2 will be undertaking the role.

Look at all the major tech developments in air combat over the decades and you will notice that the US is the leader in that field. Once they adopt a tech, rest of the world follows. AWACS, BVRs, LO/VLO, etc are all examples of this. Even Unkil has yet to "operationally" field the capability of autonomous CAP.

[ashishvikas]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/18972994 ... 27ZZg&s=19 ---> GE Engine deal stuck.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/18972994 ... 27ZZg&s=19 ---> GE Engine deal stuck.

Fantastic!

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/18972994 ... 27ZZg&s=19 ---> GE Engine deal stuck.

While we continue to negotiate, this is what sensible and responsible nations do.

X-Post from the International Aerospace Discussion thread ---> viewtopic.php?p=2640707#p2640707

South Korea to develop new engine for next-gen fighter jets
https://defence-blog.com/south-korea-to ... hter-jets/
05 March 2025

[A Deshmukh]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/18972994 ... 27ZZg&s=19 ---> GE Engine deal stuck.

Uncle is not our friend. Anyone proposing F-35s should keep this in mind.

[Aditya_V]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/18972994 ... 27ZZg&s=19 ---> GE Engine deal stuck.

Uncle is not our friend. Anyone proposing F-35s should keep this in mind.

The tweet has nothing to back it up, I am sure there is some negotiation in the Background- But whether its Russians, French, Anmerica- who ever supplies the Customer is the beggar. None will want us to Develop our own engines or our own Fighters.

We have to be smart- More Rafales is not the answer. Get the Tejas orders MK1A, 2, OrCA AMCA in numbers, volumes will create a demand which Indian Industry will fill.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/omcara30_k/status/1897534395827036582 ---> Snippets from Tejas Mk2 brochure @ Aero India 2025.

[ramana]

Rakesh,
Do we know if HAL or ADA has F 414 engines for Mk2 prototypes? I recall a few were ordered a few years back.

[ramana]

Grok says eight F 414 engines were delivered.

https://x.com/i/grok/share/khsfA3GtHE7bjbJ8zub9DAY2S

[Rakesh]

Rakesh,
Do we know if HAL or ADA has F 414 engines for Mk2 prototypes? I recall a few were ordered a few years back.

Yes, they do. There are pictures of GE 414 tubrofans @ HAL facilities. Let me see if I can find the pictures.

I am not sure of the amount they have, but it should be in the single digits I believe.

[Rakesh]

Rakesh,
Do we know if HAL or ADA has F 414 engines for Mk2 prototypes? I recall a few were ordered a few years back.

Here is one picture...

https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1714033671945023835 ---> GE F414 on a test stand in India, at the HAL Tarmac for ADA. In the background, the Mobile Engine Test Facility for the LCA is visible. These systems (and this image) are by @AIPL_INDIA

[SaiK]

What 20% is withheld?
Are the scb for hot compressor and turbine?

• Core design, IP
• Hot sections tech
• FADEC
• V&V QC process
• Supply chain, critical parts

Significant Hold!, but the best screwdriver for HAL.

[williams]

What 20% is withheld?
Are the scb for hot compressor and turbine?

• Core design, IP
• Hot sections tech
• FADEC
• V&V QC process
• Supply chain, critical parts

Significant Hold!, but the best screwdriver for HAL.

That means they are giving us nothing and also have the leverage to screw us when geopolitics comes to play.

[drnayar]

• Core design, IP
• Hot sections tech
• FADEC
• V&V QC process
• Supply chain, critical parts

Significant Hold!, but the best screwdriver for HAL.

That means they are giving us nothing and also have the leverage to screw us when geopolitics comes to play.

quite true, all it takes is for trump to have a headache

[Khalsa]

Lets hope our Pradhan Mantri Jee do not go for a visit to the white house.
I am sure both the PM and President will end up with migraines.

Just watching the debacle of Zelenisky and then the South African president.

[Rakesh]

So GE F414 out the window?

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/19 ... 3699727679 ---> In May 2023 it was first agreed upon and in July 2023 Biden administration notified US Senate about pending GE-414 deal. We have almost entered June 2025, with no end in sight. "IS THE GE F414 DEAL ON THE VERGE OF COLLAPSE" or these are Operation Sindoor side effects?

India eyes partnership with France's Safran to power next-gen Tejas Mk2 jets
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india ... 51280.html
27 May 2025

The move, after Operation Sindoor, is aimed at broadening India’s options to enable faster indigenous production of fighter jets for the Indian Air Force. US-based GE Aerospace is supplying engines for IAF’s Tejas MK-1 fighter jets to HAL, but delays in delivery have affected IAF’s upgradation timeline.

[basant]

Safran has no engine that can power the Mk2.

[Bharadwaj]

The m88 can be scaled up but this will set things back by a long time. I think this is us putting pressure on GE for TOT specifics.

[pravula]

Mk2, TEDBF and ORFA need to be streamlined into one program, with dual engine K-series

[Ankit Desai]

Safran has no engine that can power the Mk2.

https://x.com/shirobarks/status/1927412 ... FLFHx6kTtQ



https://x.com/shirobarks/status/1927436 ... FLFHx6kTtQ



-Ankit

[basant]

It's 50kN/75kN admiral. Even F404-IN is better.

[Khalsa]

We are genuinely up the creek without a paddle with Mk2.
We are going to get coerced into MRFA or MMRCA 2.0 big time.

[basant]

We are genuinely up the creek without a paddle with Mk2.
We are going to get coerced into MRFA or MMRCA 2.0 big time.

Yes. The beauty is just like with Tejas Mk2, we are building TEDBF/ORCA also around an engine that our current Kaveri cannot match. Though it should be possible to have Rafale like fighter as its engine is comparable in thrust to Kaveri (though with some weight penalty). And this choice of current engine for TEDBF cannot be an innocent/honest mistake. If we are serious about our security, we should immediately re-design TEDBF with engines that Kaveri can replace in the next few years. Always remember that we not even began to learn manufacturing even Kaveri at industrial scale and that will take its own time. IIRC, not even all the components of Kaveri!

[Prem Kumar]

I think we are falling for DDM'itis.

As one Tweeple said, ADA would've said Mk2 and the reported would've jumped to "Tejas MK2" while ADA meant "AMCA MK2".

ADA is not dumb to change engines at this stage of the program unless there is a massive geopolitical upheaval.

[Yagnasri]

We need to design things around the present achievable Kaveri parameters. A twin-engine Tejas evaluation will be like that of the Euro Canards, or we can go for a more stealthy MiG-29-type fighter with a lot of composites, serpentine air intakes, etc. That will help us a lot. Regarding the Mk1A concern, I am sure Kaveri can be used as GE 404, losing 10% of its efficiency under Indian conditions (this was not disclosed publicly until recently) once its afterburner is cleared.

In the meantime, put a lot of money and effort into Ghatak with Dry Kaveri. The future, anyway, belongs to unmanned platforms.

[Rakesh]

It's 50kN/75kN admiral. Even F404-IN is better.

I am assuming you meant the above for me However, that was Ankit who made the post above yours, not me.

I am surprised why this article from Money Control popped up all of a sudden. However, the GE F414 deal has not moved forward in any substantive way since the announcement in 2023 by the Biden Administration. Is this a media planted story to put pressure on GE or is there really something in the works with Safran, is anyone's guess.

But couple of points I would like to make;

1) There are proposed variants of the M88 (i.e. M88-3 and M88-4) that Safran has looked into developing. The issue is that Safran does not want to spend its own money to develop it and they would rather have someone else invest the money.

2) The M88-3 - on paper - is expected to deliver 80 - 93 kN (17,984 lbs to 20,907 lbs). Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20100113171 ... 00942.html

3) The M88-4 - on paper - is expected to deliver 95 - 105 kN (21,356 lbs to 23,604 lbs). Source: Same link as above.

4) The M88-4E (ECO) is the current production variant. It is built upon the M88 TCO program. It delivers 50 kN (11,200 lbf) dry thrust and 75 kN (16,900 lbf) wet thrust. This is the variant that powers the IAF Rafales and the incoming IN Rafales as well. Source: https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/de ... -airframe/

=====================================================

Now, Safran is one of the three contenders in the JV for a 5th generation engine for the AMCA program. The other two being GE and Rolls Royce. And the underlying factor between all three contestants is the MRFA contract i.e. offsets being the key negotiating tool. GE turbofans power the US contestants (F-15EX, F-21 and F-18SH), Rolls Royce's EJ200 powers the Eurofighter Typhoon and Safran's M88-4E powers the Rafale. And it is an open secret that Air HQ is heavily leaning towards more Rafales.

Now heaven only knows what Safran has proposed to the Indian Govt as part of the AMCA turbofan JV. Could Safran offer to develop the M88-3 and M88-4 as alternatives to the F404 for Mk1A and F414 for Mk2? It is possible, but the question is will the Govt take up the offer? Perhaps they are only offering the M88-4 for the Mk2 and leaving the Mk1A fleet with F404 turbofans. Nobody knows what discussions have taken place with Safran. Only time will tell.

[Rakesh]

We are genuinely up the creek without a paddle with Mk2.
We are going to get coerced into MRFA or MMRCA 2.0 big time.

The MRFA is coming, in some form or manner.

If there is any doubt, please see this post ---> viewtopic.php?p=2648137#p2648137

[Rakesh]

I think we are falling for DDM'itis.

As one Tweeple said, ADA would've said Mk2 and the reported would've jumped to "Tejas MK2" while ADA meant "AMCA MK2".

ADA is not dumb to change engines at this stage of the program unless there is a massive geopolitical upheaval.

Perhaps the article from Money Control is DDM'itis.

But post Operation Sindoor, there has been geopolitical upheaval. The least the Indian Govt expected the Trump Administration to *NOT* do, was side with Pakistan and threaten India over trade. Trump violated both. And that *IS* massive.

GE's shenanigans over tech transfer is a well known story and still a deal - IMVHO - would have been reached between India and the US. But the above behaviour from the Trump Administration has made the Modi Govt realise that neither Republicans nor Democrats can be trusted with India's geopolitical interests. As Prime Minister, NaMo has worked with US Presidents from both parties ---> Obama, Biden who are Democrats and Trump 1.0 (and now 2.0) who is Republican. NaMo expected better from Trump, but he turned out to be a disappointment and that is putting it mildly.

If the article is true...it will certainly delay the Mk2 program. However in the world of geopolitics, such delays have to be dealt with.

P.S. Also remember, you don't just switch out a turbofan on a whim and a fancy. Swapping out one turbofan for another is a lot of work and is not an easy task. If there is truth to this article, it is likely that Safran has been having backroom discussions with India, all while the latter is negotiating with GE for F414 production. Keep that in mind

[Rakesh]

From Saurav Jha. Tweet is dated Dec 30, 2024.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1873662546198356248 ---> Collaborative work on the M88-4 'ECO' is definitely a possibility and should be seen as a contingency plan. Of course, it needs to be done in 2025 itself. There is no point in waiting around to see what the Americans do with the F-414 deal. Obviously, contingencies are expensive.

[basant]

Now heaven only knows what Safran has proposed to the Indian Govt as part of the AMCA turbofan JV. Could Safran offer to develop the M88-3 and M88-4 as alternatives to the F404 for Mk1A and F414 for Mk2? It is possible, but the question is will the Govt take up the offer? Perhaps they are only offering the M88-4 for the Mk2 and leaving the Mk1A fleet with F404 turbofans. Nobody knows what discussions have taken place with Safran. Only time will tell.

Yes, we live in crazy times. Somehow I get a sense of déjà vu. Just like the Aryan Invasion 'Theory'. All Europeans want Aryans to be their ancestors. And our 'historians', I am ashamed to say, keep searching for Aryan land in Europe. Just like Pakistanis keep searching for their fathers -- Kabhi Gulf, Kabhi Türkiye. No self-respect, no respect for bare facts.

Wish the viral trend was #TEDBFwithKaveri. Would have been great a service.

[basant]

We are genuinely up the creek without a paddle with Mk2.
We are going to get coerced into MRFA or MMRCA 2.0 big time.

The MRFA is coming, in some form or manner.

If there is any doubt, please see this post ---> viewtopic.php?p=2648137#p2648137

Sorry I got confused in the other post and replied to you, but here you returned the favour attributing post of khalsa to me!

[Rakesh]

The MRFA is coming, in some form or manner.

If there is any doubt, please see this post ---> viewtopic.php?p=2648137#p2648137

Sorry I got confused in the other post and replied to you, but here you returned the favour attributing post of khalsa to me!

We are now even

[Khalsa]

Sorry I got confused in the other post and replied to you, but here you returned the favour attributing post of khalsa to me!

We are now even

Do we three need to have a beer ?