Military Flight Safety

[basant]

Read about helicopter safety and maintenance (apart from others):

Chauhan @Platypuss_10
Vikas Divyakirti (ex IAS) talks about corruption which happens in Military Engineering Services (MES)

MES is also a Part of corps of Engineers

Watch till end!

Source: https://x.com/Platypuss_10/status/1911658150853583351

[ernest]

One of the issues is that the top position of MES is not given to engineers, but by an Armed Forces officer. Poor incentives, where engineers are not considered fit to lead an engineering service. A lot is rotten with the archaic hierarchy and rules of the armed forces organization.

[Avik]

^^^^^^^
this is wrong info being peddled. MES reports into the Engineer-in-Chief of the Corps of Engineers, Indian Army . He is a qualified engineer, always. You dont get to be an officer of the Indian Army's Corps of Engineers without being an engineer!!!

Divyakriti is a gasbag.....

[basant]

Army Re-Deploys Grounded Dhruv Helicopters For Counter-Terror Ops In Srinagar

In the wake of the deadly terrorist attack on tourists in Pahalgam, the Indian Army has redeployed its Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv fleet for counter-terror operations in Srinagar and adjoining areas of Jammu and Kashmir.
...
Although the precise cause of the fracture remains under investigation, possible factors include material defects, operational stress, and environmental exposure, particularly in saline maritime conditions. Subsequent inspections found similar cracks in swashplates on other Navy and Coast Guard ALH helicopters, raising broader safety concerns.

As a precaution, the fleet was grounded not due to a fundamental design flaw, but to ensure the safety of pilots and crews while a thorough investigation was conducted.

The manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), and independent bodies like the Netherlands Aerospace Centre (NLR) have reviewed the design, with HAL leadership asserting that the helicopter itself has no inherent design flaw. Instead, the focus has shifted to maintenance and operational practices.
...
This temporary clearance comes as security forces intensify efforts to track and neutralize the perpetrators of the Pahalgam attack, underscoring the indispensable role of the ALH Dhruv in India's high-stakes security environment.

[Baikul]

Read about helicopter safety and maintenance (apart from others):

Chauhan @Platypuss_10
Vikas Divyakirti (ex IAS) talks about corruption which happens in Military Engineering Services (MES)

MES is also a Part of corps of Engineers

Watch till end!

Source: https://x.com/Platypuss_10/status/1911658150853583351

There are multiple wrong assumptions, IMO. Also that IAS officer doesn’t have complete grasp over the subject.

First MES has doesn’t deal with military flight safety (the topic of this thread).

It is an arm of the army staffed mostly by civilians. The bulk of the MES job is to do with civil work- construction- buildings, workshops, runways etc.

Entrance examinations to the MES officer cadres are separate from the armed forces. However, army officers on are sent on deputation to the MES.

Undeniably the significant civilian interaction and tender based project work lead to lots of corruption.

However that has not a lot to do with either this thread or what the IAS officer in the link is talking about (which is procurement, and that’s to do with other branches).

Source: know someone very well who was a Brigadier on deputation to an MES unit; he was a high performer sent there specifically to root out corruption.

[vimal]

Army Re-Deploys Grounded Dhruv Helicopters For Counter-Terror Ops In Srinagar

In the wake of the deadly terrorist attack on tourists in Pahalgam, the Indian Army has redeployed its Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv fleet for counter-terror operations in Srinagar and adjoining areas of Jammu

As a precaution, the fleet was grounded not due to a fundamental design flaw, but to ensure the safety of pilots and crews while a thorough investigation was conducted.


This temporary clearance comes as security forces intensify efforts to track and neutralize the perpetrators of the Pahalgam attack, underscoring the indispensable role of the ALH Dhruv in India's high-stakes security environment.

Are they going to do another round of winter, summer, monsoon, spring, Sun, Moon trials after this while happily flying those mig-21s ?

[basant]

There are multiple wrong assumptions, IMO. Also that IAS officer doesn’t have complete grasp over the subject.

First MES has doesn’t deal with military flight safety (the topic of this thread).

I am no one to verify but because the video specifically talks about military safety, I posted here. The claim is not that MES does the maintenance of helos, but what was said was there are some services that compromise the equipment, endangering helicopters too. The source is currently claimed to be an IPS officer who was earlier in MES.

Sabotage by Services is not what just some jingos claim. Years ago Arjun MBT used to pass development trails but mysteriously fail in user trails. So much so that DRDO had to install a 'black box' to nail tinkering. To quote:

Minister of State for Defence (Production) Rao Inderjit Singh has also hinted at a conspiracy to "sabotage" the Arjun tank in April. "The possibility of sabotage needs to be examined. The engines fitted in the tanks were German and were performing well for the past 15 years. I wonder what has happened to them overnight," Singh had said, talking about the reported failures of the tank.

Source: DNA India

Question: Does it really make sense in the context of helo safety?
Ans: Consider the stats on ALH. Despite operating under much more challenging conditions compared to other helicopters, the rate of serious accidents due to technical reasons is about 3 per 1 lakh hours. The recent problems curiously were related to Coast Gaurd, allegedly due to saline conditions. But this makes less sense if you note that there was a brand new helo too while IN has been operating ALH since 2002, with first squadron at Kochi operational since 2013! For sure, none of the naval versions should be flying at all if the design is so bad that brand new helos crash.

Could it be sabotage? If so by whom? I can't answer.

[Bharadwaj]

https://x.com/HALHQBLR/status/1917906189184340007

In furtherance to the clarification dated 11th April 2025, it is now intimated that the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv Army and Air Force versions are cleared for operations based on the Defect Investigation (DI) Committee recommendations.

The skid versions will be back in full service soon.

[Manish_P]

Sometimes I wish that there were two separate threads.

The 'Military Flight Safety' thread would discuss issues, developments, reports etc in the field of aviation safety and a specific 'Military Aircraft Accidents & Crashes' thread

Would help to keep the BP and breathing in control

[ramana]

https://x.com/HALHQBLR/status/1917906189184340007

In furtherance to the clarification dated 11th April 2025, it is now intimated that the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv Army and Air Force versions are cleared for operations based on the Defect Investigation (DI) Committee recommendations.

The skid versions will be back in full service soon.

Investigation found that swashplates have fatigue cracks for the wheeled ALH which In and Coast Guard use. So skid versions are released which both IA and IAF use.

As to why wheeled versions are experiencing issues the hypothesis is the rolling takeoff on ships induces extra loads.

Easy to find out by instrumenting them on shore.

[Manish_P]

..

Investigation found that swashplates have fatigue cracks for the wheeled ALH which In and Coast Guard use. So skid versions are released which both IA and IAF use.

As to why wheeled versions are experiencing issues the hypothesis is the rolling takeoff on ships induces extra loads.

..

Very interesting Ramana ji. But surely there are/were other helicopters which had versions used on land and on ships. Did they experience such issues?

In any case as you have mentioned extensive rolling testing on land could help. Are there rigs on land which simulate the roll/sway of a ship?

[Haridas]

Investigation found that swashplates have fatigue cracks for the wheeled ALH which In and Coast Guard use. So skid versions are released which both IA and IAF use.

As to why wheeled versions are experiencing issues the hypothesis is the rolling takeoff on ships induces extra loads.

Easy to find out by instrumenting them on shore.

Wheeled configuration allows greater MTOWeight compared to skids that require hovering T/O & landing.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/DDRNewDelhi/status/1933453402756743448 ---> How many Apaches have faced hard landings/technical problems in its entire history since fleet induction in May 2019?

1. 17 April 2020, precautionary landing, Hoshiarpur, Punjab
2. 29 May 2023, Precautionary landing, Bhind, MP
3. 03 April 2024, hard landing, Ladakh
4. 06 June 2025, precautionary landing, Saharanpur, UP
5. 13 June 2025, precautionary landing Pathankot, Punjab

"Apaches have already lost Combat Edge per the US Army & unfit for service and roles!

[chetak]

Very interesting Ramana ji. But surely there are/were other helicopters which had versions used on land and on ships. Did they experience such issues?

In any case as you have mentioned extensive rolling testing on land could help. Are there rigs on land which simulate the roll/sway of a ship?

Manish ji,

A ship's motion at sea usually experiences simultaneous movement in six axes, (or degrees of freedom) and that any such test rigs are mandatorily required to contend with all six axes, if they are serious about the tests

[Manish_P]

....

A ship's motion at sea usually experiences simultaneous movement in six axes, (or degrees of freedom) and that any such test rigs are mandatorily required to contend with all six axes, if they are serious about the tests

Noted, Chetak sir.

Like an airplane training simulator.

But much larger and sturdier to handle the weight of the helicopter.

Not viable I guess.

I do think however that there would be equations, based on recorded logs of other helicopters over the past decades, to have safety band parameters.

[Rakesh]

Fix eludes HAL on navy, coast guard Dhruvs
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 33534.html
26 June 2025

The military’s advanced light helicopter (ALH) fleet was grounded following a fatal coast guard crash at Porbandar in Gujarat on January 5

[ramana]

https://x.com/HALHQBLR/status/1917906189184340007



The skid versions will be back in full service soon.

Investigation found that swashplates have fatigue cracks for the wheeled ALH which In and Coast Guard use. So skid versions are released which both IA and IAF use.

As to why wheeled versions are experiencing issues the hypothesis is the rolling takeoff on ships induces extra loads.

Easy to find out by instrumenting them on shore.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 33534.html

This report confirms my conclusion that the sea borne helicopter with wheels are at risk. And HAL has instrumented two naval ALH. Report will be out end of July
They also are attributing to saline environment. Probable but not plausible. Could be a minor contribution.
Reason is fatigue is a load or stress induced phenomenon.
Coffin-Miner rule on cumulative damage from stress cycles.

[SSridhar]

Jaguar crashes in Rajasthan. More details awaited.

[sajaym]

I really hope they are still not practicing those high speed low-level strike sorties. In this day and age when we have drones and Hy/supersonic missiles , only Tom Cruise still does those low level passes anymore!

[Manish_P]

Sad to learn there seem to be some loss of life.

Added : IAF official X handles informs that we lost both of them.

Om Shanti!

May god give strength to their families to bear their irreplaceable loss.

[Ambar]

This is the third crash involving Jaguars this year.

Doesn't matter what the maintenance, keeping 40+ yr old planes in service comes with risks. Om Shanti to the brave souls!

[SRajesh]

^^ The present one was a training sortie in a twin sitter.
Second of the twin seater incidents
Of the four pilots three lost their lives.
Are these ?? Engine issues or Pilot errors or the airframe fatigue given that they are 40+ yrs old!!
And given the fact that they were for DPSA and low level flying if there is engine thurst concerns then the crashes are a major issues isnt it!!

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/IAF_MCC/status/1942888015635861696 ---> An IAF Jaguar Trainer aircraft met with an accident during a routine training mission and crashed near Churu in Rajasthan, today. Both pilots sustained fatal injuries in the accident. No damage to any civil property has been reported. IAF deeply regrets the loss of lives and stands firmly with the bereaved families in this time of grief. A court of inquiry has been constituted, to ascertain the cause of the accident.

[Baikul]

I don’t have the knowledge to comment on IAF safety record over the years but news like this is always disturbing (to say the least).

I was reading that this is the third such Jaguar incident this year. Unacceptable, I’d think.

News of Jaguar crashes always reminds me of a high school batchmate who died going down with his Jaguar a few years ago; he was quite senior. Rest in Peace, S, your sacrifice deserves better from the IAF and this nation.

[Shameek]

Sq Leader Lokender Singh became a father a month ago

CHANDIGARH: One of the young pilots of Indian Air Force (IAF) who died on Wednesday in IAF’s Jaguar aircraft crash in Rajasthan, Squadron Leader Lokender Singh had become father a month ago.
He was originally a resident of Dev colony area of Rohtak district in Haryana. Lokender was married during the COVID-19 period, and only on June 10, his wife gave birth to a son at her parental home in Hisar.
At the time of the tragic incident, when the news of her husband's demise reached her, his wife was still at her parents' home in Hisar. He was commissioned into IAF as fighter pilot in 2016.

Link

[Manish_P]

^ His sister was in the IAF as well.

[Nihat]

I don’t have the knowledge to comment on IAF safety record over the years but news like this is always disturbing (to say the least).

I was reading that this is the third such Jaguar incident this year. Unacceptable, I’d think.

News of Jaguar crashes always reminds me of a high school batchmate who died going down with his Jaguar a few years ago; he was quite senior. Rest in Peace, S, your sacrifice deserves better from the IAF and this nation.

The loss of pilots is incredibly heartbreaking. 3 incidents over the last 6 months and 3 precious pilots lost is a national shame.

Jaguars are the new Mig-21 and with over a 100 still in active service, it's a nightmare waiting to happen.

The failure to deliver of LCA program is costing our points their lives. When on earth will the government wake up and smell the coffee

[dinesh_kimar]

Jaguars are the new Mig-21 and with over a 100 still in active service, it's a nightmare waiting to happen.

The loss of lives is deeply saddening.

The Jaguars are newer than the Mirage 2000 aircraft. Jaguar was built in-house by HAL, and the last builds were made in 2002.

Darin-III upgraded versions were made from 2019 onwards.

The issue is not airframe life, IMHO. IAF bought 31 jets from UK and France in 2023, to cannabalise for spares.

The spares and indegenisation are not done by IAF / HAL, making it difficult to support the aircraft.

I believe some parts like engine washers/ seals/ fuel pipes have life of 100-500 hours, and are definitely critical in nature. Where do these come from?

HAL?
IAF BRD?

Or worse, they inspect and re-use them.

Other critical components like Computers, Chips, Rubber items,etc. are all built in small British/ French specialist suppliers, who no longer produce them.

This is an issue which needs to be addressed.

HAL built 120- 160 Jaguars, i believe. That's more than enough volume and time to learn the secrets inside out, provided there's clear direction and leadership.

I heard poor stories of Su-30 and Mig-29, as well, whose engines and complete MRO is done by them.

Mig-29 supply after Soviet dissolution forced IAF BRD Nasik to indegenise spares like tyres, brake pads, engine filters,etc. Today, this is better safety record than Jaguar due to this ecosystem, though Mig -29 are older, bought in 1987.

[Shameek]

A routine training mission turned tragic on Wednesday afternoon when a twin-seater Jaguar trainer jet of the Indian Air Force (IAF) crashed near Bhanoda village in Churu district, Rajasthan, killing both pilots on board. The incident, which occurred around 1:25 pm, marks the third Jaguar crash this year, raising renewed concerns about the ageing fleet’s safety.

The IAF identified the deceased as Squadron Leader Lokendra Singh Sindhu, 31, from Rohtak, Haryana, and Flight Lieutenant Rishi Raj Singh, 23, from Pali, Rajasthan. Both officers were conducting a routine sortie when the aircraft went down, leaving no survivors. The jet, which had taken off from the Suratgarh airbase, crashed into an agricultural field, miraculously causing no civilian casualties or property damage.

Local residents described hearing a loud explosion followed by plumes of smoke rising from the crash site. Eyewitnesses reported that the pilots appeared to steer the aircraft away from populated areas, likely preventing further loss of life. Emergency services and security forces quickly cordoned off the area, and a team from the Rajaldesar Police Station launched an immediate investigation.

Link