Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/hukum2082/status/1946219658862051507 ---> On the @SAFRAN engine deal, the offer from Rolls Royce in terms of IPR and joint development terms was frankly mouthwatering. Perhaps we had the Australians on the backs of our minds and what the Brits did to them with the AUKUS submarine deal. The French were also once bitten twice shy and did not want to lose out on our dollars, to further develop the M88 stack. To be fair to them, despite the premium prices they have been extremely reliable as security partner. The ALH-LUH-IMRH totally rides on SAFRAN power packs. We did well by fanning the @RollsRoyce news to crack a fairly good deal with the French. As Henry M Paulson (US Treasury Secretary) once said, “The British …they do a lot of talking but never close.”

[Rakesh]

A good timeline has been provided in the article...

India–France Jet Engine Pact Nears Takeoff
https://chakranewz.com/defence-and-aero ... rs-takeoff
19 July 2025

[Rakesh]

This article is from 2022 and is with regards to Safran's development of their next gen turbofan for their FCAS (Rafale replacement) program.

https://x.com/ShiroBarks/status/1947213768116846962 ---> France’s DGA tested a prototype SCAF engine based on the M88 using Thermocolor to map turbine temps up to 2,100K. 250K higher than the M88’s TET. Safran, ONERA & the DGA are developing new alloys for turbine.

France completes first engine test for its 6th generation fighter
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/2995 ... -fcas-test
13 January 2022

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/1947569158440251402 ---->
• Limited defence trade and relationship
• Minimum presence of British OEMs vis-a-vis French
• Intense lobbying and penetration of France in strategic decision making
• Trust deficit with Britain
• Ambiguity over restrictions and control

All this and other reasons led to Safran over Rolls Royce

[Rakesh]

How India will build its own Jet Engine

India dreams of 5th-generation fighters like the AMCA, but still relies on foreign engines. In this episode of The Sandeep Unnithan Show, Saurav Jha, Founder of the Delhi Defence Review, breaks down the engine crisis holding back India’s airpower. Why did the Kaveri project stall? Can India catch up with China’s jet engine mastery? And is engine self-reliance now a matter of national sovereignty? From test beds to international collaboration, we discuss what it’ll take for India to truly fly on its own power.

[bala]

As India grows and becomes truly #3 soon, the dynamics of high tech products becomes critical, which shows you are really #3 or higher. For this to happen, the Govt has to increase investments in the high tech area. No private companies will fund this effort. In the US the funding goes towards private defence behemoths albeit in firm control with the US Govt, in India these R&D centers are with the govt. mostly. India has to 10 x the current budget for R&D and these moneys will be well worth the investment. Isro, DRDO, BARC, aerospace sector, HAL, academia (IITs, REC, Eng colleges) have to be funded on high tech goals, some require multiple redundant centers of R&D. The gamut spans everything, since leadership implies having fully indigenous capability which allows a nation to dictate terms and conditions for others. Without this crucial funding and investment your position in the world is on shaky terms and you will be knocked of your perch or invaded.

The next effort for the Govt is to bolster the supply chain for production and manufacturing clout. This has to be done for all the high tech stuff that is being created. Without production this will be an achilles heel in case of conflicts. Production requires many ancilliary industries, testing, certification, quality control and much more.

[Rakesh]

Indian firm sets up titanium, superalloy plants to meet global need. Safran, Dassault, BAE line up
https://theprint.in/defence/indian-firm ... p/2699217/
23 July 2025

PTC Industries is investing Rs 1,000 cr in 4 manufacturing plants in UP, has already started supplying titanium parts to BAE Systems for its M-777 howitzers that India also uses.

[Rakesh]

Godrej’s Aerospace unit signs manufacturing contract with Pratt & Whitney
https://manufacturing.economictimes.ind ... /122878219
24 July 2025

The agreement covers the production of complex aerospace components for use in aircraft engine applications.

https://x.com/DefenceDecode/status/1948351723892002908 ---> Big Win for Indian Aerospace! Godrej Aerospace, a Tier-1 supplier to global giants like GE, Boeing & Rolls-Royce, has secured a contract from Pratt & Whitney to manufacture complex aircraft engine components. A leap forward in engine tech & global supply chain integration.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/DefenceDecode/status/1948349629126279411 ---> Rolls-Royce and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are considering a significant expansion of their JV, International Aerospace Manufacturing Pvt Limited (IAMPL), in Tamil Nadu. The companies are exploring the possibility of establishing four to five new manufacturing units in Hosur and other locations in the state. IAMPL manufactures complex components for the global supply chain, serving both civil and defence aero-engine markets. Currently, around 200 engineers work on producing high-precision, quality products, which are exported to the UK and Germany.

[Rakesh]

Fighter Jet का इंजन किसकी गलती से नहीं बना पाया भारत? Kaveri से AMCA तक की कहानी

नवभारत टाइम्स की खास सीरीज "Border-Defence" में आज हम बात कर रहे हैं भारत के लड़ाकू विमान के इंजन बनाने की रेस में पिछड़ने की। फाइटर जेट इंजन टेक्नोलॉजी की। क्या आपने कभी सोचा है कि भारत तेजस बना सकता है लेकिन उसका इंजन क्यों नहीं बना पाया? भारत रॉकेट बना चुका है, हाइपरसोनिक मिसाइल बनाने की कगार पर है, परमाणु बम बना चुका है, फिर भी लड़ाकू विमान का इंजन क्यों नहीं बना पाया? दिल्ली डिफेंस रिव्यू के डायरेक्टर सौरव झा, जो डिफेंस टेक्नोलॉजी के एक्सपर्ट हैं, उनके साथ NBT के इंटरनेशनल अफेयर्स जर्नलिस्ट अभिजात शेखर आजाद ने लड़ाकू विमानों के इंजन पर बात की है। जिसमें उन्होंने फाइटर जेट इंजन बनाना इतना मुश्किल क्यों है? Kaveri इंजन की नाकामी — तकनीकी या राजनीतिक? AMCA और GE-414 डील — क्या अब सब बदलेगा?, जैसे सवालों के जवाब दिए हैं

[chetak]

This is not verified but several you tube channels are carrying this news.


Japan offers IHI XF9–1 6th generation engine for India's AMCA ...

US, UK, France Shocked! Japan Offers Huge 200 Kn Engine for AMCA! Invites GTRE for Secret Review

Japan surprises the world as it offers a powerful 200 kN engine for India's 5th-gen stealth fighter AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft)! This game-changing move shocks the US, UK, and France, who were also eyeing India's AMCA deal. GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) has been secretly invited to review this next-gen engine technology developed by Japan for fighter jets.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ojTkSgIi ... ture=share

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ojTkSgIiNsg

[Rakesh]

^^^ I am going to stick my neck out and state that is fake news. I have seen this before.

[Cybaru]

Sourav Jha mentioned this in passing at the end of the interview with Sandeep Unninathan.

[Rakesh]

Putting my neck back

[Cybaru]

if thats on offer - we should look at that and double down and invest in a much bigger engine than the 120KN. Even if we can't use it right away as we have too many programs on the book.

I hope we can get a derated 100KN engine for Tejas Mk2 out of the Safran effort as well. Although the timelines dont match, it's good to have a backup and build our R&D/Industrial base.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1948689492841562305 ---> NEWS: Flight worthy Kaveri Dry Engine Development with the cost of Rs 472.42 crore and Technology Demonstration of Kaveri Derivative 'Dry' Engine with the cost of Rs 251.17 crore have been sanctioned.

DEVELOPMENT OF INDIGENOUS DEFENCE TECHNOLOGIES
https://www.pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage ... ID=2148337
25 July 2025

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/19 ... 9062405496 ---> Kaveri Derivative Engine (KDE) is the power plant for the remotely piloted strike aircraft (IUCAV aircraft). In this regard two projects have been sanctioned namely:

Flight worthy Kaveri Dry Engine Development with the cost of Rs 472.42 crore.

Technology Demonstration of Kaveri Derivative 'Dry' Engine with the cost of Rs 251.17 crore.

[bala]

I found this YT walking through the various steps in creating hot section turbine blades for the LEAP engine at SAFRAN. There are so many meticulous steps with blades casting as a group. The mold for casting is designed to create four parts. The various steps require so many engineering processes and some practical know how. Tooling technology and materials science are the key. Many materials used are closely guarded secrets. Every step is inspected some with very high tech machines before proceeding to the next. The intensity of the step complexity and its precise detail are quite a treat to watch. Successful production of turbine blades depends on so many factors.

The birth of a turbine blade | Safran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tM96B77n0U

// maybe Maitya ji can comment and also where India stands on the various steps towards turbine production.

[drnayar]

I found this YT walking through the various steps in creating hot section turbine blades for the LEAP engine at SAFRAN. There are so many meticulous steps with blades casting as a group. The mold for casting is designed to create four parts. The various steps require so many engineering processes and some practical know how. Tooling technology and materials science are the key. Many materials used are closely guarded secrets. Every step is inspected some with very high tech machines before proceeding to the next. The intensity of the step complexity and its precise detail are quite a treat to watch. Successful production of turbine blades depends on so many factors.

The birth of a turbine blade | Safran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tM96B77n0U

// maybe Maitya ji can comment and also where India stands on the various steps towards turbine production.

i was comparing the complexity with the 80s technology as here : https://youtu.be/zCAR4wPrwrg . Remarkable !!

[ritesh]

Shiv's take on Kaveri and ityadi Vayusena issues.

[Rakesh]

Safran has reportedly won the contest for the AMCA turbofan. Awaiting official news though...

Indo-French next-generation fighter engine collab gets minimum thrust
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 670184.cms
17 July 2025

Article below sources its info from the above ^^^

Safran selected to develop the engine of the future Indian AMCA fighter aircraft
https://opexnews.fr/safran-inde-moteur-chasseurs-amca/
18 July 2025

https://x.com/DefenceDecode/status/1946073872245399841 ---> Following extensive deliberations involving stakeholders and a technical panel, the Indian MoD has suggested a ₹61,000 crore joint development program with France for a 120kN-class engine to power next-gen platforms like AMCA.

https://x.com/DefenceDecode/status/1948999533293146460 ---> BTW, this ₹61,000 cr agreement is for engine R&D and production capability only under Safran’s partnership. Facilities like twin engine test beds, high altitude, wind tunnels, etc will be built in parallel with agencies like NAL, GTRE, HAL and will not be funded by this package.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/19 ... 1346835766 ---> Orpheus 703 reheat engines developed by GTRE.

[maitya]

From X: By @sriramthg

https://x.com/sriramthg/status/1950891589095883161
thermal conductivity oxides such as doped YSZ, Yb2O3 doped Gd2Zr2O7 & La2Zr2O7 based TBC were developed. Doped YSZ plasma sprayed TBC exhibited lower thermal conductivity, lower erosion rate, higher temperature drop & thermal cycles compared to the commercial YSZ coating

Now this doped TBC concept is interesting, and needs some analysis.
But before that, pls try to go thru the basics of TBCs, in layman terms (6-part series), before trying to appreciate the significance of this "doped" keyword vis-a-vis TBCs.

Will confine this post to Ytterbium Oxide (Yb2O3) doped YSZ TBCs only:
As we know, normally std PSZs (like 7-8YSZs) are limited by 1250deg C ambient temp levels due to unacceptable level of Tetragonal to Cubic Phase transformations beyond this temp, which results in:
1) such phase transformations result in vol changes, which generates stresses, which in-turn leads to TBC cracking
2) cubic YSZ phase inherently has poor fracture tolerance, resulting in TBC spalling

But doping/mixing with Yb2O3, especially at low doping concentrations, prevents this tetragonal to cubic phase transformation upto a much higher temp (some claim upto 1500deg C) levels - and, as a bonus of sort, it comes with good CMAS corrosion resistance at 1300 °C.

What all these essentially means is, in such a doped YSZ, since the tetragonal phase is maintained (by preventing Tetragonal to Cubic phase transformations) for high temp levels (>1250deg C, claims of upto 1500deg C), the "fracture tolerance" Achilles heel of PSZs (like 7-8YSZs) is substantially (but not fully) mitigated.

Remember, transitioning to FSZs (like 10YSZ) would have provided the same advantage wrt no Phase transformation related stress induced fracture/cracking (since minimal Tetragonal crystal structure, almost fully Cubic) - but then it comes at a cost of sacrificing the very same fracture tolerance strength, that is inherent to Cubic phases anyway.
This then would, in turn, require considering functionally graded TBC mechanisms (i.e. 7YSZ intermediate layer with 10YSZ top layer etc) for high rpm components like Turbine blades.

Plus one more point - the thermal conductivity levels of a Yb2O3 doped YSZ coating, are ~20% lower than that of the plain YSZ coating.
And interestingly, higher the doping %, the Thermal conductivity levels actually increases - so careful trade-offs are required to be arrived as to what % of doping would provide a good balance of Phase Stability and lower Thermal Conductivity levels.

So net net, a YbYSZ (scientific term is Yb2O3–Y2O3 co-doped ZrO2) TBC provides all the advantages of a FSZ TBC application, but without its strength (read fracture toughness/tolerance) related headaches/limitations.

However, as always there are some cons as well.
Typically doping YSZ with YB2O3, reduces the CTE compared to plain YSZ coatings.
i.e. the CTE variance of Bond coat (say NiCrAlY, typically at 12-16 x 10^-6 K^-1 CTE) increases wrt YB2O3 doped 8YSZ (at ~10 x 10^-6 K^-1 CTE) - compared to that of plain 8YSZ (at ~11 x 10^-6 K^-1 CTE).

Which means Thermal stresses increases due to difference in CTE between the various coating layers (substrate, bond and top coat)during thermal cycling. And higher thermal stresses contributes to cracking, spalling, and ultimately, failure of the TBC.

Again, these can be mitigated by using graded coatings, by varying degree of doping across the TBC layers etc etc.

However, not sure how much of this is currently at a practical application level, but it's an interesting futuristic TBC option nevertheless.

[SSridhar]

India explores partners beyond US to build fighter jet engines - ET

India is engaging with manufacturers from at least three other countries for jointly making fighter jet engines, expanding its defense partnerships beyond the US as it seeks to close capability gaps amid rising regional tensions, according to people familiar with the matter.

The engines being considered are from the UK, France and Japan and India wants to start the project quickly, senior officials said, asking not to be named as discussions are private. The offers will be evaluated by the Defense Research and Development Organisation — India’s military research body —they added.

The London-based defense manufacturing giant Rolls-Royce Holdings PLC offered to jointly produce and transfer technology to India during a visit by senior defense ministry officials to the UK in April, according to one of the officials.

Talks with Safran SA also gathered momentum as the Paris-based aerospace company is open to transferring technology and sharing intellectual property rights, the people said.

Japan made a similar offer in May, they said, without indicating a possible partner.

India’s Defence Minister Rajnath Singh held a bilateral meeting with his Japanese counterpart in New Delhi earlier this month, outlining potential areas of collaboration, including tank and aero engine development.

India’s Ministry of External Affairs, along with the defense ministries of both India and Japan, did not respond to requests for comment. The companies mentioned in the story also did not reply to queries.

The engines will power India’s twin-engine fighters that are under development, the people said, adding the Ministry of Defence will move to get government clearance soon.

India has been seeking to modernize its air force through the purchase of jet fighters from overseas and bringing production to within its borders through joint projects with leading weapons makers from abroad.

Earlier this week, India for the first time allowed domestic private firms to design and develop advanced warplanes to replace its aging, mostly Russian-made fleet.

The South Asian nation has also been in talks with Boston-based General Electric since 2023 to jointly make GE F414 engines but the talks are taking longer than expected. India had imposed penalties on GE last year for severe delays in the delivery of engines that power the country’s locally-made single-jet fighters.

India’s Air Force Chief AP Singh warned at an industry event Thursday that delays in procuring critical weapons pose a serious challenge to national defense readiness. “Not for a single project that I can think of that been completed on time,” he said, emphasizing the need for India to design, develop, and produce weapons domestically in sufficient numbers.

India’s push to manufacture jet engines reflects its broader effort to secure the supply chain for critical defense equipment— a major take away of the military from the war in Ukraine which is on its third year.

Joint manufacturing of jet engines with the US is part of a wider effort to deepen bilateral defense cooperation. India’s decision to look beyond Washington for critical technologies should not be seen as a sign of strained ties with the US, but rather as evidence of its focus on securing reliable supply chains.

[maitya]

India explores partners beyond US to build fighter jet engines - ET

India is engaging with manufacturers from at least three other countries for jointly making fighter jet engines, expanding its defense partnerships beyond the US as it seeks to close capability gaps amid rising regional tensions, according to people familiar with the matter.

The engines being considered are from the UK, France and Japan and India wants to start the project quickly, senior officials said, asking not to be named as discussions are private. The offers will be evaluated by the Defense Research and Development Organisation — India’s military research body —they added.[/b]
...

Given that HAL and RR have ~3+ decades of partnership ongoing (Adour MFg and the latest being expanding International Aerospace Manufacturing Pvt Limited (IAMPL), in Tamil Nadu), how about parallel programs,
i) of Safran + GTRE (~7B) - main partnership
and
ii) RR + HAL Engine Div (~$3.5-4B) - backup partnership

Given the roadmap that GTRE has asked for even for the "main" partnership the entire Hot Core (HPC + HPT + Combustor) is completely with OEM (so Safran, here) ownership - so, for the "backup" partnership, can also follow the same model, with Hot Core with RR and remaining with HAL Engine Div.

Disastrous would be taking a "solo" partnership (cheaper) route, and then 7 -8 years hence, we have an OEM willing to handover only Lic Mfg ToAsT, keeping the D&D IP with them - we need to have the option to walk-away midstream into the program, for any such hanky-panky.

What's troubling is this $7B does NOT include FTB and HATB setup - now that's an additional investment of ~2 - 2.5K Crores if not more.

It was never going to cheap, and thus we must be laser-focussed on the "technology value addition" (aka BOTH D&D and Mass-Mfg) that it's supposed to accrue. Anything less, would mean we have been taken for an ultra-expensive royal ride, all these years.

==========================================================================
Added Later: For the Pt 2 above (Backup Partnership), HAL Engine Div partnership doesn't necessarily have to be with RR, it can as well be with Saturn, provided they are willing to bring-in Izdeliya-30 tech (which I doubt).

[pravula]

Let HAL tie up with Saturn and RR tie up with some private org (with sufficient risk mitigation orders)

[Kailash]

Can we expect anything substantive for Kaveri 2.0, in terms of testing infrastructure, or a KDE+AB flying on a Tejas or a mig29 after PMs passing reference during the independence day speech?

KDE never had any fanfare or PR until the testing in Russia was almost completed, and it exceeded the design thrust. Should we expect a similar silence for the weight optimized A/B version as well?

Milestones can still be wrapped in secrecy, but the need for a broad and deep initiative like GATET, envisioning a family of engines, turbo fan/prop will definitely be a worthy endeavour, isn't it? Especially in terms is continuing funding across successive governments, finding/hiring/retaining talent etc.?

[williams]

Can we expect anything substantive for Kaveri 2.0, in terms of testing infrastructure, or a KDE+AB flying on a Tejas or a mig29 after PMs passing reference during the independence day speech?

KDE never had any fanfare or PR until the testing in Russia was almost completed, and it exceeded the design thrust. Should we expect a similar silence for the weight optimized A/B version as well?

Milestones can still be wrapped in secrecy, but the need for a broad and deep initiative like GATET, envisioning a family of engines, turbo fan/prop will definitely be a worthy endeavour, isn't it? Especially in terms is continuing funding across successive governments, finding/hiring/retaining talent etc.?

PM mentioning in I-day speech is quite significant. It tells me there is some priority set on the mission. It also tells me Americans are not being sincere when it comes to timely engine delivery.

[VinodTK]

Totally off the wall thought; if Russia agrees to enter into a equal partnership (50 : 50) in the development and ownership of izdeliye 30’s designation AL-5 powerplant for AMCA and future aircraft it might be worth investing money and partner with them; lot of challenges, due to the current environment try an outside the box approch.

[maitya]

Totally off the wall thought; if Russia agrees to enter into a equal partnership (50 : 50) in the development and ownership of izdeliye 30’s designation AL-5 powerplant for AMCA and future aircraft it might be worth investing money and partner with them; lot of challenges, due to the current environment try an outside the box approch.

Not happening ... no OEM would just hand over this level of cutting-edge 5th Gen TF tech on a platter - and Russians are no exception.
In fact, one of the main reasons (there were others ofcourse) why we walked out of the FGFA program was Russians decline on even revealing basic info wrt Izdeliya-30/AL-51 - let alone any sort of ToT.
Times have changed ofcourse, so can max expect Mfg ToT (we'll be lucky if that's even as deep as that for AL-31FP), and that'll be about it - very tightly tied to Su-57 Lic Mfg program, if any.

Yes we can ask for 50:50 de Novo JV based 5th Gen TF dev program with Russians - not any diff from what we've asked from Safran or RR.
But the issue is, whilst these 2 OEMs will develop these technologies (with our funding), but for Russia it's like handing over these already-developed tech to us. Which is why there's very less chance of them agreeing - Mfg ToT yes, D&D No.

[uddu]

What happened to Kaveri Marine? Though there is work going on to develop a 6 MW diesel engine by Godrej with 50% indigenous content by 2027 or so. Also plans to scale it up to have 10 MW diesel engine.

[uddu]

GTRE started working on Kaveri 2.0 (80kN engine)


Around 6 Kaveri Derivative engines are supposed to be delivered by Aug 2025. Has this happened?

Godrej Aerospace's Kaveri Engine Delivery: A Milestone in India's Defense Manufacturing
https://www.indianweb2.com/2025/04/godr ... ngine.html

India's aerospace and defense sector has taken a significant leap forward with Godrej Aerospace's delivery of the first two modules of the Kaveri derivative engine to the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).

Godrej Aerospace's successful delivery of these modules demonstrates India's growing capability in precision manufacturing and advanced engineering. The company has committed to delivering six more modules by the end of 2025

[drnayar]

This is not verified but several you tube channels are carrying this news.


Japan offers IHI XF9–1 6th generation engine for India's AMCA ...

US, UK, France Shocked! Japan Offers Huge 200 Kn Engine for AMCA! Invites GTRE for Secret Review

Japan surprises the world as it offers a powerful 200 kN engine for India's 5th-gen stealth fighter AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft)! This game-changing move shocks the US, UK, and France, who were also eyeing India's AMCA deal. GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) has been secretly invited to review this next-gen engine technology developed by Japan for fighter jets.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ojTkSgIi ... ture=share

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ojTkSgIiNsg

[youtube]ojTkSgIiNsg[/youtube

I think the japs have the right idea to counter the massive Chinese 5th gen and 6th gen jets ..the west simply have no counter to those ..let alone power any !!

[maitya]

This is not verified but several you tube channels are carrying this news.


Japan offers IHI XF9–1 6th generation engine for India's AMCA ...

US, UK, France Shocked! Japan Offers Huge 200 Kn Engine for AMCA! Invites GTRE for Secret Review

Japan surprises the world as it offers a powerful 200 kN engine for India's 5th-gen stealth fighter AMCA (Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft)! This game-changing move shocks the US, UK, and France, who were also eyeing India's AMCA deal. GTRE (Gas Turbine Research Establishment) has been secretly invited to review this next-gen engine technology developed by Japan for fighter jets.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ojTkSgIi ... ture=share

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/ojTkSgIiNsg

[youtube]ojTkSgIiNsg[/youtube

I think the japs have the right idea to counter the massive Chinese 5th gen and 6th gen jets ..the west simply have no counter to those ..let alone power any !!

Trouble is, unlike Safran or RR, IHI's XF9-1 is fully developed engine ... just like Izdeliya-30 or F-119 etc. So, for them, there'll be no reason or incentive to co-develop any TF tech etc with us.

And like any other OEM, there's simply no reason (or incentive) for IHI/Japan to simply handover these hard earned (and via obscene costly development programs) TF techs to us.
So max that can accrue is some sort of Lic Mfg deal, like what is getting negotiated with GE wrt F414 i.e sharing of Mfg Tech, of course the degree of Mfg Tech Transfer can vary.

However, that doesn't mean such partnerships are of no value - having a parallel Lic Mfg setup for a similar genre of TF, when another TF D&D ongoing is a very good hedge wrt IP sharing by the D&D partner OEM.
Allows us to simply walk away, at the first hint of hanky-panky (which is inevitable) by the D&D partner OEM - as opposed to having to continue with the D&D program at all cost, due to the TINA factor.

Best would be to have an indigenous 5th Gen TF D&D program in parallel, with one of such OEMs (IHI, Saturn, GE - who already have an established 5th Gen TF available) acting as an active consultant (for a fee of course) - and also have a deep Lic Mfg setup with the same OEMs TF (so either XF9-1* or Izdeliya-30 etc).

It ain't be cheap of course!!

=================================================================================
Added Later:
*With, F-X now evolving to multi-nation 6th Gen GCAP program and it's intended engine (XF9) now evolving to Japan-UK-Italy consortium for a 6th Gen TF, XF9 currently doesn't have an intended use case - now this can be a good incentive for IHI to consider a deep Lic Mfg ToT for AMCA.

[Kailash]

Exactly Maitya ji. The Japanese engine is an orphan, which has consumed a lot of funds, time etc. Only thing left is for them to monetize it. We will have a workhorse that serves us for the next 2-3 decades.

If it will consume more time to derate it to 120-140kn, a powerful single engine fighter in the class of su75 or f35 (HLFT 42 is still engine less??) with a 200KN engine makes more sense than a heavy twin engined AHCA.

[Hriday]

From idrw X post.

Safran's Proposal for AMCA engine.

>Safran India will co develop new engine with GTRE
> No Export Restrictions
> Rafale Will be Testbed for the engine
> Full Production of the engine in the Country.
> Co-testing and Co-Certification of the new engine
> ToT on both Material and Technologies to manufacture them locally (Tools n Machinery)

Many times experts in the forum had said that fighter jet engine ToT is a myth. But Safran is doing that offer again. Read the right side of the above picture.

[Nikhil_Naya]

I think it is official now - Safran is the selected partner.

BIG Announcement: India To Build 5th Generation Fighter Jets, Announces Rajnath Singh
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/indi ... -152508111
22 August 2025

[Rakesh]

I think it is official now - Safran is the selected partner.

BIG Announcement: India To Build 5th Generation Fighter Jets, Announces Rajnath Singh
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/indi ... -152508111
22 August 2025

https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/19 ... 8820081124 ---> So we are going to develop the M88-4

[Rakesh]

I think it is official now - Safran is the selected partner.

BIG Announcement: India To Build 5Th Generation Fighter Jets, Announces Rajnath Singh
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/indi ... -152508111
22 August 2025

https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/19 ... 8820081124 ---> So we are going to develop the M88-4

From Saurav Jha, dated 30 Dec 2024.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1873662546198356248 ---> Collaborative work on the M88-4 'ECO' is definitely a possibility and should be seen as a contingency plan. Of course, it needs to be done in 2025 itself. There is no point in waiting around to see what the Americans do with the F-414 deal. Obviously, contingencies are expensive.

[drnayar]

From idrw X post.

Safran's Proposal for AMCA engine.

>Safran India will co develop new engine with GTRE
> No Export Restrictions
> Rafale Will be Testbed for the engine
> Full Production of the engine in the Country.
> Co-testing and Co-Certification of the new engine
> ToT on both Material and Technologies to manufacture them locally (Tools n Machinery)

[img]https://i.ibb.co/4RKnXTH0/20250822-193000.jpg[/[/url
[url=https://imgbb.com/]

Many times experts in the forum had said that fighter jet engine ToT is a myth. But Safran is doing that offer again. Read the right side of the above picture.

Interesting ., if India does not develop the critical metallurgy skills., no "TOT" is going to help..it will be just locked to the manufacturer's ecosystem!! what's the use of spending billions ?!