Indian Naval Aviation

[Prem Kumar]

Not too late to start negotiations for the local manufacturing of F404-IS20 turofans as well. We will need at least 1 more engine for the lifespan of our Tejas Mk1/A's. If we are indeed adding 97 more, then we will need between 410 - 500 engines in the next 30-40 years. It's always better to have a local assembly for both F404 & F414 engines here in India along with a MRA facility for both. If I were to make a decision, I will either create a private consortium or give it to 2 different private players and keep HAL out of this.

Not a bad idea, considering the big overlap in the components & supply chain of 404 and 414. The assembly lines & component suppliers can be spread across a consortium of Indian industries

But this should not delay the current deliveries. Let it be opened up as a separate negotiation

[Bala Vignesh]

And probably add Apaches to the not to buy list.
What about the platform for Desi Chapati's?? that has gone quite
Rakesh what about V22 Osprey for both Navy and Airforce ??
Potential for CSR/Supply/E-2D

I wouldn't touch the Osprey with a bargepole! With due credit to its Engineering brilliance, its a nightmare to operate and maintane. Unless you need it for its bespoke existing capabilities, staying away from Osprey is the best thing to do.

[Chinmay]

Agree. No need to touch the Ospreys. E2Ds will be nice though. Keep them shore based until or if we get a flattop. India lacks AEW aircraft in numbers anyway

[Rakesh]

And probably add Apaches to the not to buy list.
What about the platform for Desi Chapati's?? that has gone quite
Rakesh what about V22 Osprey for both Navy and Airforce ??
Potential for CSR/Supply/E-2D

Concur with both Bala Vignesh and Chinmay. The Osprey is best avoided. Has killed a number of US military personnel in many crashes over the years ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents ... -22_Osprey

The problem with the E2-D is India's lack of a CATOBAR aircraft carrier. The E-2D is a very capable and proven platform, but keeping it land based will hamper its ability to provide effective AEW coverage to a moving CBG (Carrier Battle Group). The only viable platform for a STOBAR aircraft carrier - that I can think off - is the helicopter. All the Indian Navy has - at present - is the Ka-31 AEW.

Hopefully in the future, an AEW variant of the DBMRH will take over from the Ka-31.

[Sumeet]

For foreseeable future our need is not power projection world over. We will be more of coastal Navy in our own region (500-600 miles) from our coast line. Bay of Bengal, Arabian Sea and parts of Indian ocean close to us is what we need to secure. A land based AWACS with good aircraft range should suffice for now. Rafale M + Astra/Meteor/Exocet/Harpoon/Brahmos NG + AWACS + P8I combo will work the best for deterring aerial and sea based aggressors.

We need Early Warning & Control assets with very high level of automation and AI for battle management, strategy/tactics execution etc .. The best will be our own indigenous platform, second best could be something from Israel or SAAB. Our Netra Mk2 will only start trials in 2029. That is late. We need to establish doctrines now since we constantly face threats from two countries.

[SRajesh]

^^ we are not Brown Water Navy
We are a Blue Water Navy with capabilities of Regional/Limited global power projection isnt it??
Yes we have not conducted any operation on a global basis but have capability to do so if need be
And hence the Navy quest for 3 CBG

[VKumar]

: One AC for Arabian Sea, one more for BoB. Third as a backup if one is under refitting.
Fourth to block ingress from sea of Timor or to visit South China. One to watch over Cape of Good Hope and one more for the Red Sea.
One backup for these.
Need to get our TEDBF available.

[Rakesh]

Navy and Coast Guard Set to Induct Made-in-India C295 Transport Aircraft
https://bharatshakti.in/navy-and-coast- ... -aircraft/
22 July 2025

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/19 ... 5901401599 ---> C-295 MRMR and MMMA:

RFP issued earlier this year
Commercial bids to be submitted by December 2025.
With Netra MK2 based on A-321 slated to cost over 20,000 crore and will be cleared by CCS soon and MRTT techno commercial bids to be opened next month. Along with additional C-295 orders from IAF. Airbus is slated to reap a bumper harvest in India.

[Manish_P]

So expect more delays

Amid Tariff War, India Tells US To Slash Price Of 6 P8I Aircraft

As the tariff wars between the Donald Trump administration and New Delhi rage, India has asked the United States of America for a hefty discount on 6 P8I maritime surveillance aircraft for the Navy.

This, in the middle of the tariff war, can be used as “leverage,” a top official said.

India’s reaction comes as the cost of the 6-plane package is considerably more than $3 billion, about 50 percent more than the earlier P8Is (P standing for Poseidon) purchased several years ago. The USA has said the final cost has shot up as a result of “supply chain problems.”

Nevertheless, this is a steep rise, too steep a rise, said Indian officials, and when a negotiating team arrives next month, India will make it’s position clear: “we want the aircraft, but cut the costs.”

[ritesh]

So expect more delays

Amid Tariff War, India Tells US To Slash Price Of 6 P8I Aircraft

But is there any competing platforms available, which is as good if not better??

[Rakesh]

So expect more delays

Amid Tariff War, India Tells US To Slash Price Of 6 P8I Aircraft

But is there any competing platforms available, which is as good if not better??

Competing yes, but not sure about being better. From a platform perspective, Airbus has a proposed A321 MPA. But I doubt this would be a wise move considering we already operate the P-8I on a Boeing 737 platform. The best bet would be to get six more P-8Is, as long as we get them at the discount that the Indian Navy is looking at. Then there is the C-295 MRMR and MMMA (see a few posts above). But it will not have the range of the P-8I. Below is some info on A321 MPA....

Airbus signs new study contract to define France's future maritime patrol aircraft
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/pres ... e-maritime
04 Feb 2025

With the A321 MPA maritime patrol aircraft, can France and Airbus challenge the American P-8A Poseidon?
https://www.meta-defense.fr/en/2025/08/ ... 8a-patmar/
03 Aug 2025

[Rakesh]

So expect more delays

Amid Tariff War, India Tells US To Slash Price Of 6 P8I Aircraft

But is there any competing platforms available, which is as good if not better??

https://x.com/sneheshphilip/status/1953788529772765668 ---> And no, Indian Navy has NOT put on hold the negotiations for additional P-8I. Discussions are on and pricing is the main issue.

[Manish_P]

So expect more delays

Amid Tariff War, India Tells US To Slash Price Of 6 P8I Aircraft

But is there any competing platforms available, which is as good if not better??

As the Good Admiral pointed out, negotiations are on due to price increase brought about ostensibly by new policies.

Having said that, the system broadly comprises of two packages - the sensors & communication and the aircraft.

Maybe some gurus here will be kind enough to explain if it is possible for us to do some mix-and-match integration

Say the aircraft from Airbus (or Antonov) and the various sensors developed in-house, from Russia, from France ?

[ritesh]

But is there any competing platforms available, which is as good if not better??

https://x.com/sneheshphilip/status/1953788529772765668 ---> And no, Indian Navy has NOT put on hold the negotiations for additional P-8I. Discussions are on and pricing is the main issue.

[Kartik]

So expect more delays

Amid Tariff War, India Tells US To Slash Price Of 6 P8I Aircraft

As the tariff wars between the Donald Trump administration and New Delhi rage, India has asked the United States of America for a hefty discount on 6 P8I maritime surveillance aircraft for the Navy.

This, in the middle of the tariff war, can be used as “leverage,” a top official said.

India’s reaction comes as the cost of the 6-plane package is considerably more than $3 billion, about 50 percent more than the earlier P8Is (P standing for Poseidon) purchased several years ago. The USA has said the final cost has shot up as a result of “supply chain problems.”

Nevertheless, this is a steep rise, too steep a rise, said Indian officials, and when a negotiating team arrives next month, India will make it’s position clear: “we want the aircraft, but cut the costs.”

This is true across other projects as well. For e.g. Swiss F-35s were negotiated as part of FMS and a year ago the US asked the Swiss to cough up an additional USD 1.5 billion or so for the 36 F-35s that were previously supposed to cost USD 6.5 billion. Reason given was the higher costs due to supply chain disruptions after Covid 19.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/19 ... 7100654862 ---> RFI issued for 76 Naval Utility Helicopter up to 5.5 tons with 5 years minimum in service experience with foldable wings.

51 for Indian Navy.
25 for Coast Guard.
Contenders include AS565 Panther, AW-109.
Naval Dhruv out of contention.

Info Sheet on AS565 Panther ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_AS565_Panther

Info Sheet on AW-109 ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_AS565_Panther

[KSingh]

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/19 ... 7100654862 ---> RFI issued for 76 Naval Utility Helicopter up to 5.5 tons with 5 years minimum in service experience with foldable wings.

51 for Indian Navy.
25 for Coast Guard.
Contenders include AS565 Panther, AW-109.
Naval Dhruv out of contention.

Info Sheet on AS565 Panther ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_AS565_Panther

Info Sheet on AW-109 ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocopter_AS565_Panther

This has got to be a hedge, LOI exists for 60 UHM but things have gone very quiet on that front after the ICG/IN safety issues, I believe that fleet is still grounded

[uddu]

HAL conducts extensive tests on Dhruv ALH to fix lingering flaws
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/ha ... r-AA1KtDwv

Plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has carried out extensive tests on the Dhruv advanced light helicopters in a maritime setting in an attempt to pinpoint and fix a lingering flaw in helicopters operated by the navy and coast guard that have been grounded for more than seven months following a fatal crash in Gujarat, officials aware of the matter said on Wednesday.

The tests, carried out off the Visakhapatnam coast for two weeks, saw the ALH operate from warships in different weather conditions, the officials said, asking not to be named.

“HAL has collected a lot of data during these trials. The data is being analysed at the Rotary Wing Research & Design Centre and the findings will be submitted to the defect investigation committee (DIC) by August-end,” said one of the officials cited above.

Naval Dhruv will be back soon.

[KSingh]

HAL conducts extensive tests on Dhruv ALH to fix lingering flaws
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/ha ... r-AA1KtDwv

Plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has carried out extensive tests on the Dhruv advanced light helicopters in a maritime setting in an attempt to pinpoint and fix a lingering flaw in helicopters operated by the navy and coast guard that have been grounded for more than seven months following a fatal crash in Gujarat, officials aware of the matter said on Wednesday.

The tests, carried out off the Visakhapatnam coast for two weeks, saw the ALH operate from warships in different weather conditions, the officials said, asking not to be named.

“HAL has collected a lot of data during these trials. The data is being analysed at the Rotary Wing Research & Design Centre and the findings will be submitted to the defect investigation committee (DIC) by August-end,” said one of the officials cited above.

Naval Dhruv will be back soon.

From your lips to god’s ears

Makes the RFI timing even more weird, I don’t think anyone seriously expects it to go anywhere and it is explicitly written to exclude HAL

[chetak]

HAL conducts extensive tests on Dhruv ALH to fix lingering flaws
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/ha ... r-AA1KtDwv

Plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has carried out extensive tests on the Dhruv advanced light helicopters in a maritime setting in an attempt to pinpoint and fix a lingering flaw in helicopters operated by the navy and coast guard that have been grounded for more than seven months following a fatal crash in Gujarat, officials aware of the matter said on Wednesday.

The tests, carried out off the Visakhapatnam coast for two weeks, saw the ALH operate from warships in different weather conditions, the officials said, asking not to be named.

“HAL has collected a lot of data during these trials. The data is being analysed at the Rotary Wing Research & Design Centre and the findings will be submitted to the defect investigation committee (DIC) by August-end,” said one of the officials cited above.

Naval Dhruv will be back soon.

to what end, uddu ji.

There is no trust anymore, either in the manufacturer or the product

any potential export markets would have dried up completely

[uddu]

issues do happen in Aviation. This time its issue with Naval variant and there is no export of Naval variant ever proposed. Boeing plane crashed. Every now and then there is a video of a Boeing plane on fire. Not a single person will say, people have lost trust in Boeing. 400+ Dhruvs are in service and is flying with IA and IAF as we speak. The Naval variant will get fixed once issue is figured out.

[basant]

to what end, uddu ji.

There is no trust anymore, either in the manufacturer or the product

any potential export markets would have dried up completely

Respect your handle (name) pl! Weren't Apaches, in production over 50yrs, grounded last year too?

[Rakesh]

Basant, read this post from Prem Kumar ---> viewtopic.php?p=2657671#p2657671

And then see these tweets from two retired Admirals of the Indian Navy. No wonder Naval ALH is out of the running!

https://x.com/girish_luthra/status/1959491931588751713 ---> Regrettably NUH (Naval Utility Helicopter) case has been going around in circles. Had initiated in 2008, named NUH to distinguish from LUH. Different category at diff times, including SP (strategic partnership) model, with RFI, AoN, Empowered Committees. Lease options also examined. 17 years, still at RFI. Time to expedite contract.

https://x.com/AjendraBs/status/1959553552855998897 ---> To be blunt - without even the very basic knowledge & understanding of deck based helicopter design blade fold and ops at sea - DDP & DRDO (for HAL) - have hijacked NUH for ages - we have lost so much time and denuded the nation of capability. Just because they had a product called ALH that is unfit for sea based operations - if you ever witness the process of blade fold - you would want to fly in it as a passenger. Hats off to our brave ALH crew. Imagine a buy and make approval in 2008 would have by now. What a pity and no one is held accountable for the lapse in decision making. In fact most of them got plum govt jobs even after superannuation. Hope it sees the light of the day this time around and the Chetaks which were manufactured since 1961 will finally retire.

[basant]

Admiral, I have long lost respect, and frankly interest, in our Servicemen (leadership only). Very few mean business and are upright like Mao sir. To begin with, this NUH business sounds like Arjun. I mean, if you want to have Arjun, you'd build the infra by the time it joins the service, not the other way round. What real estate problems on ships do the IN guys have, the very guys who take pride in indigenization? Have they even attempted to address it, I doubt. Having said that, I agree that the specs should have been given for NUH much earlier for blade-folding. They haven't. OTOH, they invented a reverse parameter to disqualify, max. all up weight! And killed NLCA when it was flying! Same with TEDBF, a bogey they used to kill NLCA as a quick replacement. If NLCA was a TD as they claimed (of which no one heard earlier, apparently even the then Navy officer heading ADA), they could have asked for a twin-engine version earlier. They didn't.

Everyone makes mistakes, and often they can be genuine. ADA, HAL, DRDO, etc, have had sr. officers who did course correction and delivered even if late. We can't even begin to count on fingers such officers from top echelons of the Services. In the past few years as pilots and airframes were lost regularly, esp in the MiGs, and the loss of sq. strength was apparent to all, did even one ACM say we should have ordered LCA earlier? I don't think so.

That's the tragedy.

[konaseema]

To be fair to our Navy, the naval version of ALH is having some or one teething issue that is yet to be resolved by the OEM, in this case, HAL. With such an issue and its fleet grounded along with that of Coast Guard, the rank & file can assume that their leadership is forcing them to use another bird from the same OEM, from which they have seen a few crashes in quick succession. I don't necessarily disagree with you as, there are a few bind spots with each of our services and no one is immune to it, when it comes to full commitment to fighting with home grown weapon platforms. The earlier HAL & any of the DRDO labs directly involved solves the problem/s associated with the Naval ALH (Mk3), they will be in a better position to squeeze their way back into this above RFI.

[uddu]

The negativity against our own platforms are 100x that we ever show against any other foreign platforms. It is obvious from psychological standpoint as we have never had such products and used to import them and used to see nice Discovery Natgeo videos of them glorifying their own platforms in their own channels. This will change with time. Apache crashed after we purchased them. Loss of power at high altitude is the reason. Now it is restricted to western front. A platform purchased with such money is useless for Indian armed forces. Imagine such a compromise of Dhruv being restricted to only on the western front, and the hungama that comes with it? BRF members will be jumping over each other to criticize this useless helicopter that cant even function in the high altitude in Ladakh and Siachen. Apache's are useless. Money wasted. Here there is no fix to that problem. Not a single criticism or article. No one has asked Rajnath Singh or Modi to Rejine. Not even opposition ever raised this issue in Parliament. Complete silence.

Fair criticism should be always welcome that helps improve things, but blatantly going against our own platforms with comments like losing trust etc is absurd and literally stabbing ourselves in the back. We better utilize that energy in criticizing GE to push for delivery of the engine rather than let them keep moving goalposts every month. This is the comment of Air Chief to HAL about how they supported the forces during Op Sindoor. In this video he is very pleased with HAL for the support they gave.

Why this picture is so important?



Now do a google search for Air Chief and HAL, what comes out are the "Maza Nahi Aa Raha" comment videos and the Air Chief slams HAL. Articles full of it. This should also tell you the consistent psychological warfare being done against Indians through their platforms shaping the narrative for years and years and nothing is being done against it. Now look at western media. Do anyone of them ever criticize GE or write a single article telling how bad is GE or failing to deliver engines to India on time and how they are losing market share or How bad are the Apaches that cant operate in high altitude? How bad are their Strykers compared to the new platforms from India? Even if the IAF chief comes out and make a public statement criticizing GE, not a single western article will come out calling GE out, but you will see 95x articles and video channels criticizing Air Chief and 75 of them will be compromised Indian Media copying and pasting the 20 from west. You may see 5 counters and articles from non compromised Indian channels which don't make much of a wave other than in BRF and in Indian defense enthusiasts circle.

https://x.com/shreedharsingh9/status/19 ... 2631489661 ---> This picture will tell you who is competent and who is not.

[chetak]

to what end, uddu ji.

There is no trust anymore, either in the manufacturer or the product

any potential export markets would have dried up completely

Respect your handle (name) pl! Weren't Apaches, in production over 50yrs, grounded last year too?

basant ji,

one could go full monty and do the chapter and verse thing, but one refrains

two words: "arrogance" of an over flowing order book, and "hubris" that the country has no other option but to look only to them for the order placement and delivery