Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

LakshmanPST wrote: 24 Aug 2025 07:10 97 Tejas Mk1A order is being pushed only due to delay in Tejas Mk2... That's how I see it...
Any reduction in Tejas numbers (and even MRFA) will result in not achieving 42 squadrons.

40 Mk1s + 83(+97) Mk1As + 200 Tejas Mk2s + 114 MRFA + 272 Su-30MKIs + 36 Rafales = 842 aircraft. Divide that number by an average of 20 aircraft per squadron and it comes to a little over 42 squadrons.

Every Air Chief in the past quarter of a century keeps harping on 42 squadrons to be able to effectively fight a two-front war. The other term that has been mentioned is full spectrum of operations. Regardless of the terminology, every number listed above is required. One can reduce the MRFA (heaven forbid!) and increase the Tejas numbers, but at the end of the day....it has to come to a minimum of 842 combat aircraft.
LakshmanPST wrote: 24 Aug 2025 07:10Note:- Even the ppl who praise Tejas Mk1/1A in public always use the words "it is best in its class"... It is diplomatic way of saying, "It is best in its class, but this is not the class we need..."
The Class IAF wants has always been Mirage 2000 Class, which is Tejas Mk2...
Air HQ is forever chasing after the next best thing.

When Tejas Mk2 comes along, then it will be...Tejas Mk2 numbers should be substituted for AMCA.

When AMCA comes along, then it will be something else. Rinse & Repeat this bokwas logic with every local maal product.

But no Air Chief (or his senior Air Staff) has ever talked about reducing/substituting MRFA numbers for a local product. First it was 126 MMRCA, then when 36 Rafales finally arrived...then it switched to 114 MRFA. What is even more surprising is that that 114 MRFA must be only Rafale and nothing else. Although in all fairness...geopolitically speaking, no other foreign platform makes sense at this stage. The less said about the Fancy Cornish Hen (F-35) the better.

P.S. There is NO aircraft - not Su-30MKI (even with Super Sukhoi upgrade) or the latest Rafale variant - on the horizon that can conduct the ORP role in a cost effective manner like the Tejas Mk1A. After the MiG-21 Bison, it is the Tejas Mk1A that has the next quickest response time. Kudos to the Govt of India for inducting the Mk1A in triple digits. The Tejas - in multiple variants - is India's MRFA. Everything else is a distraction.
ritesh
BRFite
Posts: 581
Joined: 13 Dec 2005 17:48
Location: Mumbai

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ritesh »

The african saying goes, a bird in hand is better than 2 in bush. Mk1A is ready sans engine ge404, while Mk2 is proposed with ge414.

Atm for 404, atleast ge is playing the ball and has committed to provide the same while no such agreement in place for 414.

So,. logically speaking shouldn't IAF just happy to get something in hand rather than waiting endlessly?
KSingh
BRFite
Posts: 518
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by KSingh »

LakshmanPST wrote: 24 Aug 2025 07:10 Regarding ACM Bhadauria's comments about order going to Mk2, instead of Mk1A, I'm quoting my old post from Dec 2023--->
viewtopic.php?p=2609681#p2609681
Requoting here--->
I don’t see any grand conspiracy- who benefits if the MK1A or MK.2 are ordered?

IAF were fiddling with the MK.2 right up to the last moment, 4 different major design specs in since ~2010s? Then Modi or Simone inside his govt made the still unexplained and egregious decision to link full funding of the MK.2 to the 414 TOT deal even after the CCS had cleared the MK.2 leading to 1-2 years of further delays for absolutely nothing

Anyway it is where it is, unserious people make unserious countries and it’s no wonder all IDDM programs are part failures with this buffoonery behind the scenes.

As it is there’s ample room to absorb 200+ MK1A and 200+ MK.2, ANI are weirdly saying as much now. Will it require the IAF abandoning their 30 year old MMRCA dreams? Maybe but they’ll definitely get at least another 2-3 Rafale squadrons off the shelf so maybe towards the end of this decade they can get their wish of absorbing 30-40 jets a year at least for 2-3 years, if they have the capacity to absorb such huge numbers is a different story
KSingh
BRFite
Posts: 518
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote: 24 Aug 2025 07:19...
It’s quite alarming that to achieve 42 squadrons the SUs are going to have to fly 40+ years each.

I’m still yet to see any actual roadmap outlined by any IAF official on how they get to 42, they claim it is their intent though. They themselves say AMCA will be capped at 126 units

200+ MK1A in that context is a bare minimum and 200 MK.2 isn’t even ambitious, they could easily justify 300, maybe that’s how they get an actual private company to get serious about this game, all the balls in HAL’s court is an unacceptable strategic risk considering they also have the entire helo industry of India to manage
pravula
BRFite
Posts: 672
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 05:01

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by pravula »

KSingh wrote: 24 Aug 2025 08:18They themselves say AMCA will be capped at 126 units
Its not for IAF to decide. They will have to make do with what the GOI gives them.
KSingh
BRFite
Posts: 518
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by KSingh »

pravula wrote: 24 Aug 2025 08:21
KSingh wrote: 24 Aug 2025 08:18They themselves say AMCA will be capped at 126 units
Its not for IAF to decide. They will have to make do with what the GOI gives them.
I don’t see how that works, it is up to the users to come up with ORBAT.

That said the MK1A seems to be the example that disproves this, more than fair to say that left up to the IAF they would not have inducted a single MK1A today.
pravula
BRFite
Posts: 672
Joined: 07 Aug 2009 05:01

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by pravula »

KSingh wrote: 24 Aug 2025 08:24
pravula wrote: 24 Aug 2025 08:21
Its not for IAF to decide. They will have to make do with what the GOI gives them.
I don’t see how that works, it is up to the users to come up with ORBAT.

That said the MK1A seems to be the example that disproves this, more than fair to say that left up to the IAF they would not have inducted a single MK1A today.
IAF's ORBAT depends on what GOI thinks its priorities are and what it wants IAF to do. If they cannot deliver, GOI will be well within its right to challan every flyboy.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4579
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

https://x.com/VarlinPanwar/status/1959534507234582616

Dropping it here, for want of a better thread. This is a first person account of a retired IAF Squadron Leader about HAL Helicopter work-ethic (if one can call it that)

I am surprised that, with this level of effort, they manage to manufacture Tejas, Dhruv etc. Maybe there are some good souls who overwork, to compensate for the lazy (m)asses
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

pravula wrote: 24 Aug 2025 08:33 IAF's ORBAT depends on what GOI thinks its priorities are and what it wants IAF to do. If they cannot deliver, GOI will be well within its right to challan every flyboy.
Govt's Priority = Atmanirbharata

Air HQ's Priority = 114 MRFA (aka Rafale)

Govt is not delivering, but Air HQ has kept the dream alive for the past 25 years. It will soon become a reality.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4579
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Prem Kumar »

IAF is piecemeal ordering (83 + 97 Mk1a or 120 + hopefully 80 Mk2 etc) to conserve funds for MRFA, as Rakesh repeatedly has stated. While never failing to gripe about how they are short on squadrons

MoD returned 12,500 Crores to the MoF in Feb 2025. Though it might have not all come from the IAF, this amount translates to an entire squadron of Tejas-Mk1a (if we discount other capital support equipment and go by per-unit costs alone, this translates to nearly 3 squadrons of Mk1a)

If the IAF wants, it can address the squadron shortage by careful planning & timely bulk ordering
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1454
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by V_Raman »

After this ALH grounding - IMO IAF is hedging and rightly so - they want to see how things shape up. Maye Helis are inherently more complex - but this is my guess...
VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 806
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by VKumar »

Rakesh wrote: 24 Aug 2025 07:19...
Earlier years, BRF used to speak of 62 squadrons, as far as I remember.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

VKumar wrote: 24 Aug 2025 23:02
Rakesh wrote: 24 Aug 2025 07:19...
Earlier years, BRF used to speak of 62 squadrons, as far as I remember.
First lets hit 42 squadrons, before aiming to hit 60 or even 50 squadrons.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14806
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Aditya_V »

Is this news credible, if true then GOI must definitely have an alternative before proceeding for 97 Mk1A

https://www.airdatanews.com/hal-ho ... r-jets/
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1959949988726718714 ---> Nal Air Base, Bikaner, Rajasthan: Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal AP Singh says, "Tejas was designed as a MiG-21 replacement. That's why it's a small aircraft. It was designed around MiG-21 and it was conceived with some kind of motivation from Mirage. That's why there's a delta platform. It is going to replace MiG-21 quite well, but it will have to evolve. We will have to think of new weapons for Tejas also. As an initial fighter training role, I think it can fit in very well. We have this 83 contract already on. We have another contract lined up to be signed very soon. I expect, like we had the MiG-21s, various versions of Tejas, whether Tejas Mk1 or Mk2 or later on AMCA, will replace this fleet."
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6783
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Manish_P »

LakshmanPST wrote: 24 Aug 2025 07:10 ...
Note:- Even the ppl who praise Tejas Mk1/1A in public always use the words "it is best in its class"... It is diplomatic way of saying, "It is best in its class, but this is not the class we need..."
The Class IAF wants has always been Mirage 2000 Class, which is Tejas Mk2...
That was true in the 90s and the early 2000's

Now the IAF wants the Rafale class
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote: 25 Aug 2025 21:32
LakshmanPST wrote: 24 Aug 2025 07:10 ...
Note:- Even the ppl who praise Tejas Mk1/1A in public always use the words "it is best in its class"... It is diplomatic way of saying, "It is best in its class, but this is not the class we need..."
The Class IAF wants has always been Mirage 2000 Class, which is Tejas Mk2...
That was true in the 90s and the early 2000's

Now the IAF wants the Rafale class
And Mirage 2000I (upgraded variant) is not even in the same league as the Tejas Mk2.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6783
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Manish_P »

Aditya_V wrote: 25 Aug 2025 20:02 Is this news credible, if true then GOI must definitely have an alternative before proceeding for 97 Mk1A

https://www.airdatanews.com/hal-ho ... r-jets/
It's very sad, and borderline shameful, that the MPs agreed to pose such for a photo.

Looks like the IAF wanted to make a statement.... but it doesn't look good for the IAF themselves.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote: 25 Aug 2025 21:38 It's very sad, and borderline shameful, that the MPs agreed to pose such for a photo.

Looks like the IAF wanted to make a statement.... but it doesn't look good for the IAF themselves.
Photos like this are not taken, without approval from the top stakeholders. The photo in question is taken out by HAL itself, a govt PSU.

Something - I don't know what - is cooking. At the least, a message is being conveyed for some to see.
williams
BRFite
Posts: 1609
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 20:55

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by williams »

Rakesh wrote: 25 Aug 2025 21:44
Manish_P wrote: 25 Aug 2025 21:38 It's very sad, and borderline shameful, that the MPs agreed to pose such for a photo.

Looks like the IAF wanted to make a statement.... but it doesn't look good for the IAF themselves.
Photos like this are not taken, without approval from the top stakeholders. The photo in question is taken out by HAL itself, a govt PSU.

Something - I don't know what - is cooking. At the least, a message is being conveyed for some to see.
HAL wanted to make a statement that the ACs are ready except for the engine, it is as plain as that. It is bad, but now everyone from the highest level know that we are dependent on the US for engines. I also see right now GoI is confident that the supply of engines will not be thwarted by the Americans. We need to wait and watch. If the supplies get disrupted again, it is going to be a expensive DnD to fit these birds with alternative engines.

I now think it was a big strategic blunder to design Tejas around imported US engines. But we have learnt the lesson and need to move on.
williams
BRFite
Posts: 1609
Joined: 21 Jun 2006 20:55

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by williams »

Some very interesting facts from GE statement on March 25, 2025. I missed these parts.

So dilly dallying on further Tejas order costed us 5 long years. There is some justification for the supply chain delays from GE point of view. Restarting a production line after shutting it down for 5 years is not that easy. Especially something as complex as a jet engine customized for a specific aircraft. We really need some folks with manufacturing knowledge in the Defense Ministry and Armed forces. Otherwise this tamasha will continue ad infinitum.
On Tuesday (March 25), we were excited to deliver the first of 99 F404-IN20 engines to our valued customer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft Mk 1A fight jet. It is an important milestone in our 40-year relationship with HAL and in our efforts to ensure a strong future for India’s military by developing next-generation fighters while enhancing the country’s defense manufacturing capabilities.

GE Aerospace has a strong history of military jet propulsion collaboration in India. After collaborating with the Aeronautical Development Agency in the 1980s, GE Aerospace’s F404-IN20 engine was selected for the single-engine Tejas in 2004. This was an important breakthrough for both India and GE Aerospace.

Our F404 engine family, one of the most successful in military aviation history, powers thousands of combat aircraft worldwide. The F404-IN20 engine is a tailored design for India’s single-engine fighter with the highest thrust within F404 family and a higher-flow fan, unique single-crystal turbine blades, and numerous special components. GE Aerospace and Tejas teams collaborated closely for several years to customize it for the needs of Indian Air Force. The F404 demonstrated it was an excellent fit for the Tejas LCA. On its first test flight in 2008, the aircraft climbed to numerous mission altitudes and achieved Mach 1.1 speed.

By 2016, GE Aerospace fulfilled its commitment to HAL and delivered 65 F404-IN20 engines for the Tejas LCA. With no additional engine orders on the horizon, the production line for F404-IN20 was shut down. However, when HAL ordered an additional 99 engines in 2021 for the Tejas Mk1A LCA, our team began the complex task of restarting the F404-IN20 production line, which had been dormant for five years, and re-engaging the engine’s global supply chain.

Restarting a jet engine production line is a challenging process. Restarting the F404-IN20 engine line during the COVID pandemic was even more challenging. With a high focus on safety and quality, and a remarkable commitment from our supply chain teams and our suppliers and partners, we have managed to restart the line. Our proprietary lean operating model, FLIGHT DECK, helped us alleviate bottlenecks and identify solutions to improve manufacturing processes and turnaround time. Today, we are working closely with our suppliers to ramp up production on parts and materials for the F404-IN20.

We will continue to work together with our suppliers to keep the production line efficient, maintain the highest standards of safety and quality, and deliver to our customer. This week’s first engine delivery is a testament to what we have accomplished with HAL over the past 40 years, and a symbol of our combined potential to ensure a strong future for India’s military.
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2679
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by uddu »

Manish_P wrote: 25 Aug 2025 21:38
Aditya_V wrote: 25 Aug 2025 20:02 Is this news credible, if true then GOI must definitely have an alternative before proceeding for 97 Mk1A

https://www.airdatanews.com/hal-ho ... r-jets/
It's very sad, and borderline shameful, that the MPs agreed to pose such for a photo.

Looks like the IAF wanted to make a statement.... but it doesn't look good for the IAF themselves.
Photo is by HAL. And what is shameful of MPs? They are elected representatives of the people and they visiting HAL and taking a photo is nothing wrong. Indeed its the best PR from HAL and they should be credited for telling the nation that the aircrafts they are entrusted to manufacture is ready and made in good quality. its a welcome development. Not just that more and more MPs and peoples representatives must visit HAL and other defense PSU and sectors and should know about our defense manufacturing capability support Make in India. Information is key as it will keep any future Kalmadis away.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6783
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Manish_P »

uddu wrote: 26 Aug 2025 07:55
...Indeed its the best PR from HAL and they should be credited for telling the nation that the aircrafts they are entrusted to manufacture is ready and made in good quality...
Only two aircraft out of the eight seem to have engines integrated...

They could have posed with those two out in the tarmac.. and the rest on the factory floor

I know it is more of optics but this is the info war age as well
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2679
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by uddu »

For sure all the 8 can be shown. It seems there are more, which are manufactured, but not shown. Why should HAL take all the blows for the failure on GE to deliver. Else imagine the outrage if only 2 are shown? There will be a ton of propaganda against Make in India and HAL stating that they failed to deliver and we must import.
Last edited by uddu on 26 Aug 2025 09:31, edited 2 times in total.
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2679
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by uddu »

williams wrote: 25 Aug 2025 22:21 So dilly dallying on further Tejas order costed us 5 long years. There is some justification for the supply chain delays from GE point of view. Restarting a production line after shutting it down for 5 years is not that easy. Especially something as complex as a jet engine customized for a specific aircraft. We really need some folks with manufacturing knowledge in the Defense Ministry and Armed forces. Otherwise this tamasha will continue ad infinitum.
The same applies for HAL as well, as orders are placed late. But once the delivery timelines are frozen and delivery expected. The U.S engine giant, has flopped in delivering engines on time and keep shifting goalposts every month. American's finally joined the Russians when it comes to delivery timelines are concerned.
ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 968
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

A new deal to buy 113 GE F404-IN20 engines by Sep for additional 97 Mk1As

India likely to sign USD one billion fighter jet engine deal with American firm GE by September
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 826185257/
26 Aug 2025
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

^^^Thank goodness!
ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 968
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by ashishvikas »

^^ I hope, with this delivery schedule of 2 engines becomes 3 engines per month...in 2027, if not in 2026.

GE would have a backlog of 200+ engines.

Also like to see similar large offset to private vendors like L&T, VEM, etc
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14065
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Vayutuvan »

williams wrote: 25 Aug 2025 21:55 I now think it was a big strategic blunder to design Tejas around imported US engines. But we have learnt the lesson and need to move on.
It had to be designed around some engine.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Vayutuvan wrote: 27 Aug 2025 00:54
williams wrote: 25 Aug 2025 21:55 I now think it was a big strategic blunder to design Tejas around imported US engines. But we have learnt the lesson and need to move on.
It had to be designed around some engine.
But that does not mean it had to be designed around an engine from a country whose foreign policy is unreliable. And that is putting it diplomatically.

Post President Clinton's visit in 2000, there was a lot of euphoria and optimism on Indo-US ties. It is as if the relationship from 1947 to 2000, just evaporated into thin air and amnesia developed in our stakeholders. Regardless, post 2000 the relationship was going on an even keel (even in the defence realm) till Trump's first term in 2017. MAGA 1.0 torpedoed the little strategic collaboration between the two nations and MAGA 2.0 has practically sunk the strategic relationship. So much for Yeh Dosti Hum Nahin Todenge! But the cracks were visible from 2000 itself and one had to be blind (or willfully so!) to not see them. The Indo-US relationship has gone back to Pokhran '98.

BRF spent the last quarter of a century, pushing back against the idea of a full embrace of the US. One does not escape the clutches of the Russian bear, to just simply collapse & fold into the arms of the American bull. And 25 years later, BRF has been proven right. The bokwas (disguised as strategic thought) from BRFites like NRao, YI Patel, sudeepj, Cosmo_R, ldev, etc have today been proven spectacularly wrong. Brown Sahibs are at best kept at an arms length.

This whole engine issue should have been resolved a long time back. TD-1 first took off on 04 January 2001. India has spent a pittance on high and low bypass turbofan development and expected OEMs to just hand over their strategic jewels on a silver platter. What thought process goes on in the minds of our stakeholders is a mystery. Successive govts - Congress and BJP - have not invested anything worthwhile. The GOI is now going to invest a minimum of US $7 billion into the JV between Safran and GTRE for the AMCA turbofan program. And yet India has not even spent 1/7th of that on the Kaveri program. It is a blot on our stakeholders. India is now beholden to the Orange Orangutan that presently occupies the Oval Office.

Over 400 Tejas variants (Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2) are to be powered by GE turbofans. Turn off that tap and your entire Tejas fleet is at risk. The GOI had nearly 25 years to resolve this issue and did NOTHING.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14065
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rakesh wrote: 27 Aug 2025 01:22
Vayutuvan wrote: 27 Aug 2025 00:54 It had to be designed around some engine.
Successive govts - Congress and BJP - have not invested anything worthwhile.
The crucial period was 2004 onwards. Till 2014, we had Dr MMS as the PM. If anybody has to take the majority of the blame, I would say it has to be the INC. I don't think we can blame BJP. By the time BJP regained the majority in lok sabha, the damage was already done by the dynasty, IMHO. Also the exchequer was empty. Eleven years later, when everything is working out, Orange money threw a spanner into the works. He is the Mule as in the Foundation and the Empire, 2nd in the Foundation trilogy.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Vayutuvan wrote: 27 Aug 2025 01:53 The crucial period was 2004 onwards. Till 2014, we had Dr MMS as the PM. If anybody has to take the majority of the blame, I would say it has to be the INC. I don't think we can blame BJP. By the time BJP regained the majority in lok sabha, the damage was already done by the dynasty, IMHO. Also the exchequer was empty. Eleven years later, when everything is working out, Orange money threw a spanner into the works. He is the Mule as in the Foundation and the Empire, 2nd in the Foundation trilogy.
Saar, billions were spent on C-17, C-130, AH-64, CH-47, P-8I, etc. during the Congress years (2004 - 2014). So the exchequer being empty is not really true. We cannot change the past, but at least we can change the future.

FINISH KAVERI. GET FLYING TEST BEDS. INVEST IN THE REQUIRED INFRASTRUCTURE.

BRF's own Maitya-ji has invested tons of energy and time detailing how Kaveri can be completed. But Air HQ is only focused on 114 MRFA and have been beating this bandwagon for the past 25 years.
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3049
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Cybaru »

BR needs to publish again! Beat this point over and over till it is the normal awaaaam that gets it and calls for it...
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

ashishvikas wrote: 26 Aug 2025 19:32 A new deal to buy 113 GE F404-IN20 engines by Sep for additional 97 Mk1As

India likely to sign USD one billion fighter jet engine deal with American firm GE by September
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 826185257/
26 Aug 2025
https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1960358685148098927 --->

F-404:
- India likely to sign $1 billion deal wirh GE by Sept for 113 F404 engines for 97 additional Tejas Mk1A cleared recently.
- Negotiations are almost finalized, this is in addition to 99 engines ordered by HAL for the initial 83 Mk1A.
- Deal expected to get 212 engines in continuity to avoid disruption.

F-414:
- Around 200 F414 needed for LCA AF Mk2 & AMCA. Deal worth $1.5 billion.
- 162 engines for LCA Mk2 & 10 engines for 5 AMCA prototypes.

Comments:
- 212 F-404, but what about replacements years down the line? Order upfront & store rather than relying on GE? Or pursue IDDM alternative?
- F-414 order quantity reportedly being lower than F-404, although one has ToT is yet another reason to raise the question: Why exactly wasn't at least licensed production for F404 not possible?
maitya
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 859
Joined: 02 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by maitya »

Rakesh wrote: 27 Aug 2025 17:45
ashishvikas wrote: 26 Aug 2025 19:32 A new deal to buy 113 GE F404-IN20 engines by Sep for additional 97 Mk1As

India likely to sign USD one billion fighter jet engine deal with American firm GE by September
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 826185257/
26 Aug 2025
https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1960358685148098927 --->
<snip>
Comments:
- 212 F-404, but what about replacements years down the line? Order upfront & store rather than relying on GE? Or pursue IDDM alternative?
<snip>
Kaveri-II is the answer for this ... a ~15% upscaling of the dry-thrust (to ~57KN) would be required!!

Also by the time the 2nd lot of the Mk1A order delivery will be mid-way, the MK1s will be up for engine replacement. Hopefully we'll have Kaveri-II tested and certified by then - a tall order, no doubt, but for that happen, the approvals and D&D work needs to start now (based on K9 and KDE experience).

And given the timelines, I doubt the AMCA TF JV would have enough technologies developed by then, to be used in this - so, this'll have to be a parallel independent program.

Hope there's enough appetite left in MoD et all to sanction/pursue this ...
drnayar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2077
Joined: 29 Jan 2023 18:38

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by drnayar »

Rakesh wrote: 27 Aug 2025 02:04
Vayutuvan wrote: 27 Aug 2025 01:53 The crucial period was 2004 onwards. Till 2014, we had Dr MMS as the PM. If anybody has to take the majority of the blame, I would say it has to be the INC. I don't think we can blame BJP. By the time BJP regained the majority in lok sabha, the damage was already done by the dynasty, IMHO. Also the exchequer was empty. Eleven years later, when everything is working out, Orange money threw a spanner into the works. He is the Mule as in the Foundation and the Empire, 2nd in the Foundation trilogy.
Saar, billions were spent on C-17, C-130, AH-64, CH-47, P-8I, etc. during the Congress years (2004 - 2014). So the exchequer being empty is not really true. We cannot change the past, but at least we can change the future.

FINISH KAVERI. GET FLYING TEST BEDS. INVEST IN THE REQUIRED INFRASTRUCTURE

BRF's own Maitya-ji has invested tons of energy and time detailing how Kaveri can be completed. But Air HQ is only focused on 114 MRFA and have been beating this bandwagon for the past 25 years.
Would the Kaveri be a straightforward replacement to the GE 404 ?
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

drnayar wrote: 27 Aug 2025 20:13 Would the Kaveri be a straightforward replacement to the GE 404 ?
Most certainly. Why look at M88, AL-31 or any other turbofan? You have your own turbofan at home that needs completion.

Take a look at Maitya-ji's post above. It makes ample sense to complete Kaveri. You can even use it as a bargaining chip for negotiations with foreign OEMs and even geopolitically. See how foreign OEMs offer their wares to India, when we develop our own system.

• Armoured Personnel Carriers (WhAP vs Stryker)
• BVRAAMs (i.e. SFDR, Astra Mk2 vs Meteor, AMRAAM, R-77, etc)
• Artillery (Bharat Forge has a buffet of home grown artillery vs M777, ATHOS, etc)
• Zorawar Light Tank ---> Had India not spent decades in developing Arjun, how could Zorawar have a such a quick turnaround in development?
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10545
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Yagnasri »

We are almost there with Kaveri. The dry engine is now ready. Looks like it nearly matches the required thrust for Mk1A. But instead of testing it in the air, our people want to test it directly on Ghatak as per the report. I do not see a reason not to test it and address any issues that may arise actively. Develop a suitable afterburner, test it thoroughly until all issues are resolved, and build Mk1As and Ghatak as if there were no tomorrow. We are in control of the Western borders and most of the sea lines as well.

For many years, we had been hearing about the IAF's desire to have light, medium, and heavy fighters. Suddenly, there is no desire for a cheap, lightweight fighter. We are not hearing it at all. Why? There are no import options available, so we do not want any. MK1A with the Kaveri engine will be totally ours. We can make any number we can't and sell it to whoever we want. Imagine the export opportunities we can get with that.
V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 1454
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by V_Raman »

when Kaveri is ready - we will upgrade the LCAs with Kaveri - i have no doubts about that. We need the GE engines to get them off the ground.

and we will build more of MK1As as time goes by. we have no choice. My gut tells me we will even build LCA Navy in a few years as the production lines will still be humming - Kaveri II/KDE - whatever we call it - will be higher thrust than GE and make LCA Navy more attractive - we need backup for the Naval Rafales.

Indians are the ultimate hedgers - especially in defense procurement - that is the state of our domestic MIC - what to do....
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 21363
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

Post by Rakesh »

Ankit Desai wrote: 20 Aug 2025 00:55 The design and spec have to be finalized. They are building prototypes.

Ex-IAF Chief Bhadauria has same view. (I think he is saying order of all 97 should go to Mk2)
-Ankit
What changed in three years? :P

LCA Tejas: A Success Story For Indigenous Airpower & Make For World Ambitions
https://www.iadb.in/2022/07/14/lca-teja ... ambitions/
14 July 2022
“In my opinion, LCA Tejas delivers an unmatched Combat Power for its class and is the most cost-effective option available today in this category of fighters.”
Post Reply