MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

[uddu]

Trump will not go to the extend of sanctioning engines at the moment if we are not in an escalatory fight. This will be affecting U.S defense exports and Defense lobby will get upset. We have not picked a fight with the U.S on Tariff's with counter Tariffs. As long as the burden is on U.S civilians to pay it and I don't think GOI is ever interested in a Tariff fight with the U.S. They will diversify or find new market place. Though have to be careful about the likes of loonies like Lindsay Graham chewing on Trumps ears getting their way.

It's always good to have a backup plan. But our govt only responds once that happens and Tejas is grounded then some Tender will appear for "Supply engines for Tejas".

They will not do a Kaveri testing just as an experimental project to guage its performance. They will not in the interim test other engines on the Tejas to offer the clients various options. Nothing. These things need capable leaders like Parikkar who knows technology and is also capable enough to give solutions and directions in resolving current and possible future problems.

[Bharadwaj]

In Rafale we trust and quite frankly no one can blame IAF for that. The Netra mk2 may also take its own time so maybe 4-5 Saab global eye for emergency purchase? Yes I know porki have erieye. The tejas mk1a and astra mk2/3 combo would also benefit from a longer range targeting link to deal with the j-20/j-35. Even the Chinese recently admitted that the j-20 was not safe from a j-10 that was keyed in by their awacs.

[Manish_P]

...
It's always good to have a backup plan. But our govt only responds once that happens and Tejas is grounded then some Tender will appear for "Supply engines for Tejas".
...

Aren't aircrafts designed around engines?

We can't ask for alternate engines if the original supplier stops.

At the IAF and GoI trusts France more than the US it would make sense to go with the French (or the Russians) for the tip of the spear AMCA.

[uddu]

...
It's always good to have a backup plan. But our govt only responds once that happens and Tejas is grounded then some Tender will appear for "Supply engines for Tejas".
...

Aren't aircrafts designed around engines?

We can't ask for alternate engines if the original supplier stops.

At the IAF and GoI trusts France more than the US it would make sense to go with the French (or the Russians) for the tip of the spear AMCA.

Just do know that Tejas was designed with Kaveri to be incorporated at a later stage. So they surely has that accommodated while designing the specs.
Google gives some details like this
Characteristic Kaveri (GTX-35VS) Eurojet EJ200 GE F404 (F404-GE-402) Snecma M88 Klimov RD-33
Length (cm) 349.0 398.78 391 353.8 422.9
Diameter (cm) 90.9 73.66 89 (overall), 71 (inlet) 69.6 73 (inlet), 104 (maximum)
Dry Weight (kg) 1180 988.83 1035 897 1055

Russian RD-33 is said to be longer to accommodate. There will be many other factors as well.

Even the HAL HLFT-42. Which engine will be used on that? Will Kaveri in its present form suffice or we have to choose between some Russian or French option.

[drnayar]

What is the case for such numbers of Rafales ?

A fighter that is powered by a non-US turbofan.

Using that line of thought, Rafale makes ample sense to Air HQ.

As such there is a case to find alternatives to GE for 404 and 414 Tejas engines, they should not be flying at somebody s whim at the whitehouse !

[Rakesh]

So AMCA is still going to be GE right...

No. 414 was always supposed to be just a temp engine.

The initial plan was to have two squadrons of AMCA Mk1 to be powered by GE F414 turbofans.

The latest plan is to have only the TD and PV aircraft to be powered by GE F414 turbofans.

The production ready AMCA airframes are planned to be fitted with an Indian turbofan.

[Manish_P]

The initial plan was to have two squadrons of AMCA Mk1 to be powered by GE F414 turbofans.

The latest plan is to have only the TD and PV aircraft to be powered by GE F414 turbofans.

The production ready AMCA airframes are planned to be fitted with an Indian turbofan.

So there is still some hope that plans can change even more and even the TD and PV birds might get a french or russian engine

More power to the carrot top and may his firmaans get even more outrageous...

[Rakesh]

Round & Round the Merry Go Round We Go!

IAF seeks 114 Rafale jets in direct deal with France, bypassing MRFA tender
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/iaf- ... irect-deal
13 August 2025

The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to submit the case for “Acceptance of Necessity” (AoN), an early but essential step in India’s defense procurement process, to the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) by October 2025. A final government decision is expected thereafter.

[VKumar]

As I wrote earlier. One squadron of Rafale every year till AMCA is available.

Man after exploring all alternatives will chose what is logical.

[Rakesh]

Article is originally in French, so Google Chacha's translation into English is little off...but you will get the gist.

The Dassault Aviation Rafale announced that the mega-ga-Middle MRFA contract would be awarded in India
https://www.avionslegendaires.net/2025/ ... trat-mrfa/
13 August 2025

India's specialized defence and economic media have been on the same basis for 24 hours on the issue. All their sources announced a victory for the Dassault Aviation Rafale F4 under the MRFA programme to supply 114 combat aircraft. The last reluctance to assemble the fleet in India would therefore have been withdrawn by France. An official announcement is expected next month at the 80th United Nations General Assembly in New York. So forget the eighty examples ordered by the United Arab Emirates at the end of 2021, the Cloidal-ray aircraft manufacturer is preparing to strike much stronger. This is about a hundred and fourteen Rafale F4 fighter aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The Indians are seeking to speed up the contract through a G2G agreement, i.e. between governments. Emmanuel Macron and Narendra Modi would negotiate signatures themselves, speeding up proceedings.

The MRFA program, for Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft, provides for the replacement of Dassault Aviation Mirage 2000, Mikoyan MiG-29 Fulcrum, and SEPECAT Jaguar of Indian Air Force front-line units. Several international competitors were in the running, but between the total refusal of the F-35A Lightning II and the blacklisting of other American hunters, all of them accelerated very quickly in recent days. Russia believed it had to turn around by proposing a mixed contract Sukhoi Su-35 Flanker-E and Su-57 Felon without the Indians being seduced. Nothing to do with the favourite Dassault Aviation Rafale for 11 months. With the Indians, we must always be patient, even if the psychics have been green since last spring, and in particular the air operation (untwhat of Pakistan). The fact that an Indian single-seater Rafale hit by a Pakistani air-to-air missile (Chinese-in-chartiled) managed to return to good harbour and save the life of its pilot has finished convincing the Indian Air Force of its willingness to command a hundred Rafales.

Now it is now a question of a “made in India” construction oscillating between 75 and 80% of the examples ordered by the MRFA. The rest will be in France, at Dassault Aviation. The fact that the Rafale F4 is guaranteed ITAR free is a real plus for an India that is now clearly in a trade and economic war with the United States. India should become the Rafale’s major user in the world that many had hoped for in recent years. And all this in the nose and beard of American and Russian aircraft manufacturers who are far too sure of them on this program. Case (of course) to be followed.

[SRajesh]

https://www.news18.com/world/worlds-cos ... 35526.html
Another One Bites The Dust!!
Too Costly and tooo many issues
Hope we dont get F35ed!!

[drnayar]

https://www.news18.com/world/worlds-cos ... 35526.html
Another One Bites The Dust!!
Too Costly and tooo many issues
Hope we dont get F35ed!!

What if the Americans actually got the F35 to India for MRFA trials and ..it failed

[uddu]

Su-57: Facility Evaluation in Nasik

[Rakesh]

Russia carrying out studies on investments required for producing Su-57 fighter jets in India
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 901201834/
01 Sept 2025

[Rakesh]

India conditions Su-57E purchase on radar swap, rattling Russia’s defence circles
https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/indi ... a-defence/
01 Sept 2025

[pravula]

India conditions Su-57E purchase on radar swap, rattling Russia’s defence circles
https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/indi ... a-defence/
01 Sept 2025

I am surprised that they are surprised. They would have a good overview of what we are doing on the SU30-mki and why we would want our own MC and Radar....Seems like someone is trying to just create a narrative...

[Manish_P]

I am surprised that they are surprised. They would have a good overview of what we are doing on the SU30-mki and why we would want our own MC and Radar....Seems like someone is trying to just create a narrative...

Sahi pakde hain, Sir ji

Someone seems to have been paid to create a narrative

[Rakesh]

I am surprised that they are surprised. They would have a good overview of what we are doing on the SU30-mki and why we would want our own MC and Radar....Seems like someone is trying to just create a narrative...

Sahi pakde hain, Sir ji

Someone seems to have been paid to create a narrative

https://x.com/arpitkanodia30/status/1963120423903825978 ---> The Su-57 will only make sense for India if it goes a step beyond the Su-30MKI. It’s understandable if the Russians want to safeguard certain engine technologies, but the complete engineering package of the airframe must be transferred to India. This includes enabling us to integrate our own DFCC, MCs and replace or modify all LRUs and databus independently. All the subsystems need to be Indian. There should be no situation where, for example, adding a DAS requires us to go back to the OEM for approval—just like the complications we faced with the MKI program when we tried to integrate MAWS into the air frame.

https://x.com/arpitkanodia30/status/1963130319206555861 ---> It doesn’t matter what version they offer—what we should demand is the complete engineering package of airframe upto a point that DFCC need to be Indian. Most of the subsystems we have already developed, or are in the process of developing, are a generation ahead of anything the Russians can offer. Including the weapon systems. Once you have the complete engineering package, you can modify the airframe in any way you want—even redesign it entirely with composite structures or monolithic titanium bulkheads.

https://x.com/arpitkanodia30/status/1963133673441771762 ---> That’s exactly what the Chinese did with the Su-27, and we are on a similar path with the Su-30MKI. Naturally, the Russians don’t want to allow it, but that is the reality weaker nations face today, there is no choice. And yes, it will eventually be a new fighter—but I’m not talking about redesigning it immediately, rather 15–20 years down the line.

[Manish_P]

^ Didn't happen last time (FGFA) and we walked out... will not sign on if the terms are not agreeable to us.

[V_Raman]

India can afford to play the waiting game here given we have Rafale, Mk1A, and Mk2, Super30 upgrade, 404/414 flowing, Kaveri (soon - 10 years) - quite the punch - over the next decade. We can play the imported 5th gen fighter game for a long time while making progress on AMCA....

Given that we are progressing well on UAV front - we seem to have 10-15 years for a 5th gen fighter to fly in IAF colors. At that point, similar story is likely - retirement of older fighters - Jaguars/su30, Rafale upgrades, introduction of AMCA, flying of local engines on indian platforms, buy phoren 5th gen fighter with full indian misson computer/radar/weapons....

next phase - the final frontier - in 15-25 years - full domestic engines and 100% indian fighter / helicopters / UAVs etc.

[Khalsa]

MRFA cannot and should not be 5th gen acquisition. No Air Force, not even the US intends to keep stealth more than 50%. F-16 and F-15 will still be the bulk for a while to come.

MRFA must be rafale and the stop gap has to be an off the shelf F-35, not the Su-57. Parallel future lies with Tejas Mk2 and AMCA.

[Rakesh]

MRFA cannot and should not be 5th gen acquisition. No Air Force, not even the US intends to keep stealth more than 50%. F-16 and F-15 will still be the bulk for a while to come.

MRFA must be rafale and the stop gap has to be an off the shelf F-35, not the Su-57. Parallel future lies with Tejas Mk2 and AMCA.

Rafale is coming in as the MRFA. The F-35 will not come in for geopolitical reasons and thank goodness for that. It will be the Su-57 (assuming India purchases an off the shelf 5th gen fighter).

See the fleet availability of the F-35 from the US Govt's CBO (Congressional Budget Office) website. Report was published in June 2025.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/61482

Below is a key attribute to consider (with regards to the F-35 and is from the link above) -->

Full Mission Availability Rates of F-35s

As all three variants of F-35s have aged, their full mission availability rates have declined, on average. For F-35Bs and F-35Cs, only the newest aircraft have generally had full mission availability rates above 10 percent.

[Rakesh]

Another damning report on the F-35 and this one is from the US Govt's Accountability Office. What a mess this program and aircraft is.

F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: Actions Needed to Address Late Deliveries and Improve Future Development
https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-25-107632
03 Sept 2025

[V_Raman]

The only 5th gen fighter that make sense is the SU-57 due to the commonality with MKI and the existing production line. We have time and we will negotiate hard with the Russians on the Radar.

MRFA is done - Rafale - more airframes will come over the next 10-15 years definitely.

We have ambled/jumbled/stumbled to a workable state as always!

[Roop]

No Air Force, not even the US intends to keep stealth more than 50%.

I will go further and say that even 50% would be a crazy extravagance for India. Have a 10% stealth fleet, of the best stealth planes available to you, and rely on other means to achieve your combat aims. The "other means" I am talking about include drones, missiles and manned aircraft of Gen 4 / 4.5 (after your basic kick-down-the-door force has done a successful SEAD / DEAD of enemy air defences). This is exactly what India did in Op Sindoor -- all SEAD / DEAD was done through Scalp, Brahmos and loitering drones.

Sindoor and Ukraine have proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the modern battlefield is impossibly dangerous for manned a/c and helicopters. Probably even for tanks, but that's a whole new topic.

[Vayutuvan]

Full Mission Availability Rates of F-35s

As all three variants of F-35s have aged, their full mission availability rates have declined, on average. For F-35Bs and F-35Cs, only the newest aircraft have generally had full mission availability rates above 10 percent.

[img...]https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files ... ty-age.png[/img]

That is crazy. Is this normal for defence equipment? How can anybody fight wars unless one increases the fleet strength by an order of magnitude?

I am reminded of supercomputers during 1990-2000. Their uptimes were usually in 2-3 hour range while the jobs they run were expected to run for days or even upto a month. All kinds of checkpointing was implemented so as to not lose intermediate results (which are important for simulation of non-linear problems or Monte Carlo type simulations).

In late 1970s, to 1990s, IBM mainframes and Burroughs mainframes (those are two I worked on) had similar problems. DEC minis were no exception. Also they were worse in that support calls used to go unanswered for days on end.

[Rakesh]

That is crazy. Is this normal for defence equipment? How can anybody fight wars unless one increases the fleet strength by an order of magnitude?

Yes, this is normal. What is surprising is that the F-35 is touted as the greatest 5th gen platform that is out there and the fleet is suffering such severe issues at home. Just imagine what the international F-35 community is facing. One only has to look at the F-35B of the Royal Navy that was stranded in Trivandrum, Kerala in June 2025. It is better to invest in improving the fleet serviceability of the platforms in service, as increasing the fleet strength only masks the problem. The silver lining of this sordid F-35 saga is the following;

1) America is the undisputed leader in VLO tech, for now. They have the tech lead advantage compared to other nations that are just entering the field. Western Europe (mainly France and UK) have a long way to catch up with their FCAS and Tempest programs, even though these programs (which currently exist on paper) are designed to be at minimum 5.5 gen or even 6th gen. In the east, Russia and China are still newbies when compared to the US. India also has a long catch up period in this area with the AMCA program.

2) 5th gen platforms are not just about shapes and angles. If that was the case, China could easily replicate the F-22 (as the J-20) and F-35 (as the J-35) as xerox copies. They did this with the Su-27 and Su-30 family, as the numerous J-variants that they fielded. The sensors and radar aboard the F-22 and F-35 is what makes them true VLO platforms. China and Russia have some distance to cover in this area. They will catch up, but it will take time and who knows where the US will be - on the technological totem pole - at that time.

3) VLO tech comes with significant operational hurdles that will take time to overcome. The F-35 fleet availability is a learning experience for the three branches of the US Armed Forces that operate this platform. The fleet availability will get better, but will require careful planning and sustained funding. But if the global leader in VLO tech is facing this issue, imagine what China is experiencing with their J-20 and J-35 fleets. The laws of R&D, science, varied operational climates, etc affect the Chinese just as any other nation. But unlike other nations, China does not have public institutions like the GAO and the CBO that exist in the US. In India, our equivalent is the CAG (Comptroller & Auditor General). China will remain an enigma (due to its lack of transparency). So the only OSINT assumption to make is that the PLAAF and the PLAN enjoy 100% fleet availability with their VLO platforms. To assume anything less than that, would be unwise. It is better to play it safe, than to be sorry.

4) Operational lessons learnt in the B-2 Spirit fleet were applied in the B-21 Raider program, at least in theory. Similarly....lessons learnt in the F-22 Raptor were applied in the F-35 Lightning II. The operational experience of the F-22 and F-35 fleets will be applied in the NGAD (F-47) fighter program. Thus as mentioned above in Point 2, one can expect that the F-35 fleet availability will improve over time. I am going to lean towards that line of thought, because US air power (at least in the initial break-down-the-door stage) relies on being unseen to achieve air supremacy / dominance.

5) Fourth generation platforms like the F-16 Block 70/72, F-15EX Eagle II, Rafale F4+, Eurofighter Typhoon, Su-30 variants, Gripen E, Tejas Mk2, Tejas Mk1A will all have viability for the next few decades, at minimum. No nation can afford an all VLO fleet, as it is cost prohibitive. Use VLO to break down the door and then send in your mud movers (4th gen platforms with long range stand-off weaponry) to do the heavy lifting.

In light of the above...India must not be yet another guinea pig in operating the F-35. As fabulous as the aircraft is (and she certainly is, when it flies!), she is not worth the geopolitical shenanigans that the US political establishment will most certainly apply on India. The F-16, F-15 and F-18 offers in the MRFA contest, are coming with sovereignty killing restrictions. With the F-35, we might as well lower the Tiranga and raise the Stars & Stripes. And learn to sing the Star Spangled Banner as well. The Indian Air Force also operates in varied climates (dry heat of the Rajasthan deserts, the cold climates of the North and East, the humid forests of central and southern India). I feel sorry for the Fancy Cornish Hen that will have to operate in such an environment.

P.S. We don't know the specifics of the GAO and CBO reports in how they determined the low fleet availability of the F-35. But if it is anything like our CAG, expect oversights that are bound to creep up due to lack of knowledge of sub-systems and components in the fleet. But that is a topic for another time.

[Vayutuvan]

@Rakesh ji, does VLO stand for Velocity Limitation Operation? Or something else?

[bala]

@Rakesh ji, does VLO stand for Velocity Limitation Operation? Or something else?

Vayu ji i think it stands for very low observability.

[Rakesh]

@ Vayutuvan-ji: Yes, bala-ji is correct. VLO is a term used to describe 5th generation fighters. Internal Weapons Bay, no external fuel tanks among other design features + a potent combination of radar and sensors to remain near invisible. You cannot fight what you cannot see. And if you can’t see, then you cannot prevail.

LO is a term used to describe near stealth. Aircraft like the KF-21 Borame from South Korea is one example. Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen E/F, Tejas Mk2 etc will be hovering in the vicinity of LO, but the KF-21 should be better.

Then you have the true beasts which give a middle finger to any semblance of LO like the Su-30MKI (soon to be Super Sukhoi) and the F-15EX Eagle II. Super Sukhoi will be one serious platform once upgraded.

With multiple Astra variants (with Mk3 surpassing Meteor and AIM-120D), multiple Rudram variants, DARE’s High Band Jammer, Virupaksha radar (GaN based) and other features…the Super Sukhoi will be a force to reckon with. Too bad Air HQ’s obsession with Katrina will stifle the Rambha’s true potential.

[pravula]

I think full mission capability includes full VLO capability, and that still requires significant time to re-apply coatings AFAIK. So instead of a .001 sq m, it may be at 0.01

Some details here: https://www.twz.com/44067/the-f-35cs-ra ... ths-at-sea

“Maintaining [the] radar-absorbent coating on the surface of the F-35 is a job that takes very detail-oriented, sometimes tedious work — masking every small area, properly mixing chemicals, applying them precisely, smoothing, and assessing the smallest imperfections. It’s time-consuming, but it’s vital to get it right,” Master Sgt. Francis Annett, 388th Maintenance Squadron Fabrication Flight Noncommissioned Officer-in-Charge explained in an Air Force release.

[Manish_P]

I think full mission capability includes full VLO capability, and that still requires significant time to re-apply coatings AFAIK. So instead of a .001 sq m, it may be at 0.01
...

Correct

Also An F-35 with full RAM coating but with externally carried AAMs/AGMs will cease to be a VLO despite being a 5th Gen aircraft

After the doors have been broken down by DEAD on the 1st/2nd whatever day of the war the AF can decide that it is safe enough to send the aircraft without the full RAM coating and/or with external munitions.

It's mission availability rates will then see a spike

[Rakesh]

Yes, this is normal. What is surprising is that the F-35 is touted as the greatest 5th gen platform that is out there and the fleet is suffering such severe issues at home. Just imagine what the international F-35 community is facing. One only has to look at the F-35B of the Royal Navy that was stranded in Trivandrum, Kerala in June 2025. It is better to invest in improving the fleet serviceability of the platforms in service, as increasing the fleet strength only masks the problem. The silver lining of this sordid F-35 saga is the following;

An excellent summary from the UK, a Tier 1 partner in the F-35 program and who operates the F-35B variant aboard their QE Class aircraft carriers. Click on the link below. A must read for anyone promoting the F-35 for India.

https://x.com/MtarfaL/status/1963677676616708194 ---> F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: Current Status and UK Implications. Part of my wider series on F-35. As always, views my own - facts can and should be corrected if wrong. This follows the GAO report.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/pradiprsagar/status/1964611212144238607 ---> With declining numbers of fighter jets and China and Turkey offering their stealth aircraft to Pakistan, IAF needs fifth generation jets. Choice is between the American F-35 and the Russian Su-57. More Rafales is also an option.

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the Indian Naval Aviation thread...

US team to visit India for negotiating aircraft deal
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 80952.html
11 Sep 2025

“Some of the things the US is offering, such as the F-35 combat jets, are unsuitable for Indian needs. The P-8I is a good fit as the navy already operates the aircraft and it has proved its worth in an ISR role,” one of the people said.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/nitingokhale/status/1966541354789716316 ---> Given IAF’s depleting fighter jet squadrons, a possible solution that is being thought about may work out to be the best possible ‘interim’ arrangement. It goes something like this: Buy 3-5 squadrons of Rafales (with a mandatory Make-in-India component thrown in), simultaneously speed up LCA production, get the AMCA programme off the ground forthwith AND go for a couple of squadrons of Su-57s from Russia. All this will allow the IAF to take care of its immediate shortage. The logic?

1. In the short run, two more Rafale squadrons can be accommodated in the existing infrastructure, saving substantial cost to begin with AND give IAF the required filip.

2. With the co-development and co-production of Safran-led jet engines in India more or less a done deal, there will be many synergies with French military-industrial complex that can benefit emerging Indian defence MSME sector.

3. If AMCA is the ultimate objective, then Su-57 (which many view as a work in progress), can still be a potent addition to IAF fleet in the interregnum.

4. Based on similar design and philosophy as that of the Su-30s (which has a long history in IAF), conversion of pilots as well as ease of maintenance for the ground staff will be easier if Su-57 is chosen, many old timers feel.

5. Many spin offs from this line of thought will aid the AMCA programme, which should be treated as a national mission with all hands on deck.

Ideal formula? In the real world, the ideal is impossible so go for the best of the rest. The current geopolitical churn will also play a part in any final decision that the government takes. Whatever the choice, the time to bite the bullet with respect to the MRFA, the jet engine and buying 5th generation fighters is NOW.

[Bharadwaj]

Admiral thread ko band Kar do..

https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 912193232/


Defence Ministry receives IAF's proposal for buying 114 'Made in India' Rafale fighter jets

[LakshmanPST]

I don't think India would be buying Su57s immediately...
Atlsast not as part of MRFA's 114...
If at all we buy Su57, it would be independent of MRFA and will be something that would compliment AMCA & Su30s...

[Hriday]

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1966 ... RSsbQ&s=19

Completely off base, given current IAF capex is $6.7Bn and this $23Bn, is an IAF projection not actual price (more likely to be between $30-40Bn). Just run the numbers as to how much a squadron a year (18 a/c would consume out, of an IAF budget which has been mostly flat).

[Hriday]

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1948 ... Wr3jg&s=19

114 MRFA =~$30-40Bn, with all bells and whistles. 60 5Gen, another $25Bn. Total, $65Bn. That's IAFs entire capex for a decade. Currently at $6.7Bn/Yr. Marginal gains (inflation marked increase) only available for other items. Where is the cash unless dranatic budget increase.