Vayusena & Nausena Rafale: News & Discussion

[Khalsa]

Dear Admiral
where are my Rafale Tejas Mk1A Naval trainers

[Chinmay]

Rafale file inches forward...

Defence Ministry receives IAF's proposal for buying 114 'Made in India' Rafale fighter jets
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 912193232/
12 Sept 2025

[Rakesh]

Dear Admiral
where are my Rafale Tejas Mk1A Naval trainers

Saar, please see these three posts....

viewtopic.php?p=2653250#p2653250

viewtopic.php?p=2653058#p2653058

viewtopic.php?p=2653250#p2653250

[Rakesh]

Rafale file inches forward...

Defence Ministry receives IAF's proposal for buying 114 'Made in India' Rafale fighter jets
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 912193232/
12 Sept 2025

Rafale winning the MRFA contest is the only logical conclusion to this sordid 25 year saga. Op Sindoor + retirement of the MiG-21 Bison from service (this month) are the catalysts that is moving the MRFA deal forward.

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1966512316033421357 ---> India's MoD has received proposal from IAF for 114 Rafale:

- To be built by Dassault in along with Indian firms
- Expected to cost ₹200,000 crore (~$23 billion)
- 60% Indigenous Content
- To have longer ranged A2G missiles than Scalp
- to set up MRO for M88 engines in Hyderabad
- Firms like Tata likely to be part of manufacturing
- MoD recieved the Statement of Case (SoC) few days ago, under consideration by wings including Defence, Finance, to be discussed by Defence Procurement Board (DPB) helmed by Defence Secretary, then Defence Acquisition Council (DAC).

176 Rafales (22 Rafale Ms (plus 4 Rafale Bs) + 36 Rafales C/Bs + 114 Rafale C/Bs). MRFA never was gonna work, hail G2G.

Now up to Safran to deliver on the new 110/120/140kN engine front, is giving all the possible carrots.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1966513301963276698 ---> Now that India is planning to break the bank on 114 Rafale along with Tejas Mk1A, a reminder: IAF is significantly short of force multipliers required even for its significantly less than sanctioned strength. More AWACS than currently planned & cleared, way more tankers, more SCA, ISTAR, et al please. No amount of fighters will help without all these. And for the sake of the gods, set up multiple realistic UCAV & CCA programs using existing and upcoming IDDM engines. Think 20 years ahead and stop moving goalposts. Except one: sanctioned squadron strength has to go up from 42 too.

[Rakesh]

I have gone hoarse (on BRF) repeating the following line ---> Whoever wins the engine contract for the 5th gen turbofan, wins the MRFA contest. That is the only way to justify the estimated US $23 billion cost of the MRFA and offset it via the US $7 billion cost of the JV for the 5th gen turbofan. No point in going to two different nations for a strategic deal, when one nation can serve both.

India May Soon Announce AMCA Jet Engine Deal with Safran

India’s biggest leap in aviation tech may soon be here as a new Indo-French project is on the horizon. India is close to approving a landmark joint project between Safran and DRDO’s GTRE to co-develop a 120 kilo-Newton jet engine for the AMCA fighter with 100% technology transfer. The deal could reshape India’s aerospace future with full technology transfer and indigenous production promises to end dependence on foreign suppliers.

[Ankit Desai]

Defence Ministry receives IAF's proposal for buying 114 'Made in India' Rafale fighter jets

The Statement of Case (SoC) or the proposal for the 114 Rafale jets prepared by the Indian Air Force was received by the Defence Ministry a few days ago and is under consideration of the different wings under it, including Defence Finance. After deliberations, the proposal would then be moved to the DPB, followed by the Defence Acquisition Council, defence officials told ANI.

-Ankit

[bala]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1966512316033421357 --->

176 Rafales (22 Rafale Ms (plus 4 Rafale Bs) + 36 Rafales C/Bs + 114 Rafale C/Bs). MRFA never was gonna work, hail G2G.

India lacks good/proper program management for strategic programs. These should have been planned upfront when 36 rafales were inducted. Every piecemeal acquisition implies poor planning and thought leadership at the high levels. If you have 1 exam wonder boys/girls as IAS poobahs in charge of defence that is what you get. Our mantrijis except for Manohar Parrikar have no clue. PM Modi is occupied with other stuff. The 176 plane strength could have easily convinced Dassault to plunk down a plant in India and make things in India. Instead we have this circus of acquisition in fits and starts.

IAF leadership is also to be blamed for not supporting the local Tejas program wholeheartedly and pilots drooling with videshi maal. I initially thought the Rafales are a waste of money when we have Su-30 MKI but now I am okay considering India is going to be truly #3 economy soon.

Going forward India has to pull its resources building its own planes and engines. There ain't no alternative (TINA). No one is going to give you the edge you require to be top dog. R&D budget for defence should be 10 x the current amounts and test facilities should be ramped up big time. India has to remove its old ways of thinking - struggling economy, droolling over the greatest/latest videsh maal which in mission mode is suspect many times, chalta hai attitude and more.

[Sumeet]

India lacks good/proper program management for strategic programs. These should have been planned upfront when 36 rafales were inducted. Every piecemeal acquisition implies poor planning and thought leadership at the high levels. If you have 1 exam wonder boys/girls as IAS poobahs in charge of defence that is what you get. Our mantrijis except for Manohar Parrikar have no clue. PM Modi is occupied with other stuff. The 176 plane strength could have easily convinced Dassault to plunk down a plant in India and make things in India. Instead we have this circus of acquisition in fits and starts.

IAF leadership is also to be blamed for not supporting the local Tejas program wholeheartedly and pilots drooling with videshi maal. I initially thought the Rafales are a waste of money when we have Su-30 MKI but now I am okay considering India is going to be truly #3 economy soon.

Going forward India has to pull its resources building its own planes and engines. There ain't no alternative (TINA). No one is going to give you the edge you require to be top dog. R&D budget for defence should be 10 x the current amounts and test facilities should be ramped up big time. India has to remove its old ways of thinking - struggling economy, droolling over the greatest/latest videsh maal which in mission mode is suspect many times, chalta hai attitude and more.

Be happy now they are going at once and not 36 + 36 + 36. I am sure some sense has been put into planners after Op Sindoor.

Also, honestly we had some financial issues thanks to 10 years of scamgress rule. AK Anthony said we don't have money for MRFA, Modi govt talked about sorry state of our economy but stopped short of revealing a white paper. We are in much better state economically to take on this over next 5 years.

We should have a say in development of Rafale. We will be largest Rafale operator. We should have a more customized Rafale. Also, France should know its we who have used it against Swedish, American, Chinese tech in a real war scenario. Not even France has had the luxury of operating Rafale in a real war scenario with significant adversarial assets. We can really benefit them with some real feedback.

Also, keep in mind now we have a better Rafale upgrade plan -- 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 and F5. Back in 2016 none of this was known or planned because honestly France had little incentive to have a proper upgrade path in comparison to Super Hornet from Boeing. We had to practically come up with our own MKI version of Rafale. France will be more likely to listen to our developmental feedback. Its a good time for us to sign this deal.

[Rakesh]

Great reply by Sumeet, but wanted to address some points bala, you have raised in your post.

India lacks good/proper program management for strategic programs. These should have been planned upfront when 36 rafales were inducted.

When the deal for 36 Rafales was announced in April 2015, it was just shy of a year of BJP in the Govt. The economy was not in the strong position it is today. There was virtually no money for a massive Rafale deal. So a compromise was reached for 36 aircraft as an interim measure.

The 176 plane strength could have easily convinced Dassault to plunk down a plant in India and make things in India. Instead we have this circus of acquisition in fits and starts.

Rest assured, the upcoming plant will be making a lot more than 176 Rafales, both for India and international customers. Expect aircraft shells for the Indian Air Force, Indian Navy, UAE, Indonesia, etc all to come out from this plant along with M88 assembly in Hyderabad. The Navy also wants a follow-on order for Rafale Ms, above the 22 presently ordered.

IAF leadership is also to be blamed for not supporting the local Tejas program wholeheartedly and pilots drooling with videshi maal.

It is too late for Would Have, Could Have, Should Have. In retrospect, one can woefully rue about how mismanaged the Tejas program was from its inception. What is even more criminal is the pittance that was devoted to turbofan development. Shame on all the decision makers who had the oversight on these programs.

The chickens have come home to roost and there there is no choice. Media is celebrating arrival of GE F404 turbofans, as if they are like Diwali firecrackers. First turbofan finally arrived, then second turbofan and now the third. At the drip feed rate these turbofans are arriving in India, having just the Tejas address the squadron shortage is not going to work. Also see below...

40 Mk1s + 83(+97) Mk1As + 200 Tejas Mk2s + 272 Su-30MKIs + 36 Rafales + 114 MRFA (likely Rafale) = 842 aircraft. Divide that number by an average of 20 aircraft per squadron and it comes to a little over 42 squadrons.

P.S. You can cancel this entire contest and go all in on Tejas. But for that to occur, India needs to have her own turbofan. Not one that will be available 12 years from now. Is there such an engine available?

[bala]

What is even more criminal is the pittance that was devoted to turbofan development. Shame on all the decision makers who had the oversight on these programs.

Admiral & Sumeet, thanks for your feedback.

On turbofan: India needs to spend $2 B ( i called for 10x R&D budget 239 million x 10) at least to get to a decent working engine in mission mode.

[V_Raman]

I would look at it differently. I dont think India had the tech or test facilities or expertise in the country for engine development beyond what we did even if we had the money.

[Rakesh]

Defence Procurement Board likely to take up IAF proposal for 114 Rafale jets
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 043064.ece
12 Sept 2025

IAF proposes acquisition of 114 more Rafale jets
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... fale-jets/
12 Sept 2025

Centre Receives Air Force Proposal To Buy 114 'Made In India' Rafale Jets
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/centre- ... ts-9267354
12 Sept 2025

[Rakesh]

Rafale file inches forward...

Defence Ministry receives IAF's proposal for buying 114 'Made in India' Rafale fighter jets
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 912193232/
12 Sept 2025

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1966509230694776974 ---> The giant deal has moved out of air headquarters and reached south block. This will be the biggest ever defence deal. Read @ani story.

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1966522555151609856 ---> Team Defence Secretary has a big role to play now to ensure that the deal moves quickly and IAF gets its desired aircraft.

[Rakesh]

So true

https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1966579109099663542 ---> In the coming weeks we will have plenty of guys from MoD to IAF & retired vets explaining how 114 non-stealth fighters inducted at the gucciest of price is gonna let IAF keep the edge, while PLAAF crosses 300th J-20 & will be inducting a 100 VLO fighters/year from now.

[ashthor]

So true

https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1966579109099663542 ---> In the coming weeks we will have plenty of guys from MoD to IAF & retired vets explaining how 114 non-stealth fighters inducted at the gucciest of price is gonna let IAF keep the edge, while PLAAF crosses 300th J-20 & will be inducting a 100 VLO fighters/year from now.

Hope fully just like the Tejas orders were in lieu of the first 36 similarly there could be quid pro quo regarding Mark 2. ek haat le ek haat de.

[Aditya_V]

I hope KDE ,Airbus Leap engines, flying test bed are part of this deal.

[Sumeet]

Thanks Rakesh and Bala.

For 114 Rafale order at a minimum we should get [176 total Rafales should help us put forward our choices from position of strength]:

• GaN Based AESA (whether RBE2 or Uttam Mk2)
  GaN based Jammers as part of Spectra along with other upgrades necessary for aircraft self protection
  Towed Decoy integration with this new self protection Jammer & Radar
  Integration of more sophisticated Jamming capability to penetrate modern IADS systems (like Spear EW etc -- SAAB is taking a lead here )
  Escort Jamming (Rafael's Sky shield or Elta's Scorpius or SAAB's Arexis GaN wideband Jammer -- Arexis if we were to combine SPEAR EW)
  Ku Band AESA based SATCOM integration*
  Source code for Radar and mission computer to integrate new missiles (especially indigenous) and develop new attack strategies
  New secure data link system (data, video etc) sharing to create new combat strategies in combination with Super 30, LCA Mk2, AMCA
  Updated Engine to support electronics upgrade for near future

*We should cover TSP areas under our geo stationary ELINT & SAR satellites to get real time info for any ground based military assets like EM sources [ground jammers, radars etc] for air to ground targeting

[Kartik]

I hope KDE ,Airbus Leap engines, flying test bed are part of this deal.

Why would they be? Nothing comes for free nor are we in a position of such strength that we can demand such things to be added without paying for them separately.

Look at our situation-

- 180 Tejas Mk1A on order, all depending on the GE F-404-IN20 which is severely delayed and could, in a worst case scenario, be sanctioned, for e.g. if we go for the Su-57.
- Tejas Mk2 dependent entirely on the F-414-INS6 engine, and on the F-414 assembly with 80% ToT in India. That too could in a worst case scenario, be cancelled, completely stalling the Tejas Mk2 program.

Both our indigenous programs are in a way possible points of pressure for the US and Donald Trump to use in case relations get worse.

- Su-57 is at best a 5 gen minus program. Not yet mature, not yet flying with the AL-51F engine as it must. This is akin to the AMCA Mk1 with F-414 engines. It needs the AL-51 just as the AMCA needs the 120 kN engine to fully exploit it's design potential. Even if we let that aside, the Su-57 will take years to assimilate into the IAF since it is only NOW entering Russian Air Force service. Literally just a couple of weeks ago the first serial produced Su-57 images were seen operating from an airbase near the China border. Su-57 production will be in the hands of HAL, which already has it's hands full with Tejas Mk1A and Mk2.

- What other option does the IAF have when 6 squadrons of Jaguars are to retire in the next 10 years? And soon after 3 squadrons of MiG-29UPGs and 3 squadrons of Mirage-2000Is. My nightmare scenario (and I mean it, this really really worries me a lot) is that things go further south with the US and they decide to really squeeze our balls with both the Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 programs.

Just imagine what will happen if the US decides to not supply the F-404-IN20 and refuses to seal the F-414 production deal. The IAF will be in the kind of horrible mess it wasn't since the 1950s and early 1960s. And back then the PLAAF was nothing compared to what it is now.

Truth be told, the Rafale is the only bird in the hand that is US pressure free, one of the best 4.5 gen fighters and will at least give the IAF some breathing room to retire the Jaguars.

My problem with the Su-57 is that it will be seen as a major escalation by the US and will give Trump's anti-India advisors a very good reason to end all cooperation on the F-404 and F-414. Which in turn will really derail both programs given the timelines associated with re-design for a new engine , say EJ-200 which also can't be guarateed given EU will do what the US says.

[Rakesh]

Rafales Set To Reshape Contours Of Aerial Combat For India

The Indian Air Force chose the Rafale after rigorous trials for its omni‑role capability, advanced avionics, proven combat record, and compatibility with the Indian Navy’s Rafale M. With only 30 squadrons against a sanctioned 42, more Rafales are needed to bridge gaps until the AMCA arrives. Limitations include lack of stealth, reliance on external stores, and dependence on French munitions. India‑specific upgrades and potential indigenous weapon integration enhance capability. While costly, the Rafale boosts combat power, buying time for indigenous programs and strengthening high‑end air dominance into the 2030s.

[Rakesh]

So true

https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1966579109099663542 ---> In the coming weeks we will have plenty of guys from MoD to IAF & retired vets explaining how 114 non-stealth fighters inducted at the gucciest of price is gonna let IAF keep the edge, while PLAAF crosses 300th J-20 & will be inducting a 100 VLO fighters/year from now.

VIDEO: https://x.com/Neetivaan/status/1967440450454982779 ---> Air Marshal Vinod Patney (retd) on the Rafale fighter jet. Says, Rafale is better than the F-35, lmao how?

[Bharadwaj]

Mitron what must happen will happen.

India looks to ink deal for 114 Rafale as early as next year, some to come in fly-away condition
https://theprint.in/defence/india-looks ... n/2744469/
17 Sept 2025

According to sources, the new Rafale jets will be the Standard F4 plus version and will come equipped with longer-range air-to-air missiles (two) and air-to-ground munitions.

The Rafale in service with India is the F3-R plus version, all of which will be upgraded to the latest standard, sources told ThePrint. The IAF’s Rafale has 13 India-specific enhancements, a notch above the F3 variants.

This buy is an absolute necessity and hopefully the last ever import of combat aircraft for the IAF.

[Aditya_V]

Last ever import- we are probably been saying that for the last 60 years- but USD 23 Billion - have we ever invested that kind of money in our domestic MIC?

What about the Loadout- Scalp, Meteor, Mica, Hammer- a full Load of Rafale with cost USD 25 million- can at least include Indian weapons / radar. Have some Test beds for local engines. Fully Assemble LEAP engines for Local Airlines. I am hoping there is some way we have a strategic benefit Including LCAMk2 engines and AMCA engines locally.

[Rakesh]

Grapevine is that the 114 Rafale order will be split into two variants;

1) 18 - 36 Rafale F4.1 aircraft to come in fly away condition

2) Remaining aircraft to be built in India to the F5 standard. The F5 variant is expected to be inducted in 2030 and will align with the start of the production line in India.

3) All earlier model Rafales - in IAF service - to be upgraded to the F5 standard. The F5 standard will also feature the M88-TREX turbofan that increases the wet thrust from the current 75kN to ~ 90kN.

[Sumeet]

Rakesh sir source for this grapevine ?

[Rakesh]

Rakesh sir

No sir for me please.

source for this grapevine ?

I was going to post the YouTube video in my post and you pre-empted me by asking for source

Indian Air Force Getting Rafale F5

[Cain Marko]

This rafale deal is because India has no choices right now. I would have preferred a mki version of su57 any day as that bird has a future potential that the 4.5 gen rafale simply doesn't.

Iaf has definitively lost the qualitative edge vs China now. But majboori hai Kya karey.

[Manish_P]

....

Iaf has definitively lost the qualitative edge vs China now. But majboori hai Kya karey.

Careful there, sir ji.. some would term it r... rona.

[Bharadwaj]

Grapevine is that the 114 Rafale order will be split into two variants;

1) 18 - 36 Rafale F4.1 aircraft to come in fly away condition

2) Remaining aircraft to be built in India to the F5 standard. The F5 variant is expected to be inducted in 2030 and will align with the start of the production line in India.

3) All earlier model Rafales - in IAF service - to be upgraded to the F5 standard. The F5 standard will also feature the M88-TREX turbofan that increases the wet thrust from the current 75kN to ~ 90kN.

Admiral, The print article quoted sources saying f5 was very far down the road but yes the upgrades would be discussed. So it will be f4 plus for all 114 and possibly upgraded slowly ala vajra.

[Cybaru]

Two key movements are happening.

One Kaveri seems to have come back to life, and there is some noise around it... I'm not sure if it will pan out, but it looks promising.

M88TREX - This changes the game completely!

- This secures Rafale in Indian conditions for hot and high perf,

- Works as an excellent backup for Mk1A (slightly more power and less range than Mk1A with 404), but won't make a material difference.

- Works as a terrible backup for Mk2 (Better performance than the jaguar for sure), but in combat T/W it should allow it to carry more load and still have more range than Mk1a, but worse performance, but will do in a pinch - maybe Mk2 wont get made in numbers and we will continue to make more Mk1A

- Works as a reasonable replacement for 414 in AMCA.While the performance of the AMCA would be superior with 414, it is still a viable option that doesn't suffer significantly. The thrust-to-weight ratio ensures that the AMCATREX outperforms the Mk1 and Mk2 versions of the Tejas, as well as the MKI, which it is set to replace as a platform.

If the Safran deal goes through and we manage to secure 110/120/140 kW engines, then nothing like it. However, as the plan stands now, it propels us forward, even with the M88TREX engine. Some more small tweaking of the m88trex engine puts it at par with 414 and alleviates the above issues.

[Rakesh]

Admiral, The print article quoted sources saying f5 was very far down the road but yes the upgrades would be discussed. So it will be f4 plus for all 114 and possibly upgraded slowly ala vajra.

Both the article and the video are basically stating the same thing (upgrade to F5), but have a different fork in the road (114 F4 variants in one go and then upgrade to F5 standard VERSUS a small number of flyaway F4 aircraft upfront with the F5 variant to be built in India).

The bigger takeaway is that for ONCE the stakeholders are thinking outside of the box, assuming both the article and the video are true. By the time the last F4 variant rolls off the production line in India, it will be severely handicapped (technologically speaking) vis-à-vis the J-35 and J-20. France does not have a fifth generation fighter program and their sixth generation program (i.e. FCAS) is so severely delayed (pushed back by two decades from mid 2030s to now the 2050s), that Rafale is their only viable option for their Air Force to remain relevant in future conflicts. Thus continually upgrading the Rafale to meet new threats is the only path forward for France.

In light of this, the Rafale is the only viable option forward for the IAF via up-to-date variants. Unlike our previous purchases, where aircraft were acquired in one bulk purchase and upgrades happened decades later. See below...

* Mirage 2000H/TH ---> Acquired in the 80s but updated to the I/TI standard (basically a 2000-9) only in the previous decade.
* MiG-29B/UB ---> Acquired in the 80s but updated to the UPG standard only in the previous decade.
* Su-30MKI ---> Arrived in 2002 but upgrade to the SS standard has yet to commence

This time around, it appears the strategy being adopted is different. Acquiring one variant in flyaway condition, but either upgrading air frames or building new air frames with the latest, available technology. And upgrading the older air frames to the latest standard. This is an infinitely better strategy.

It keeps the tip of the spear...sharp, ready and most importantly survivable. No point in having platforms of any kind, if they cannot successfully execute the mission.

The Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 are equally important, but are reliant on Unkil delivering turbofans on a consistent and timely manner. However the reality is that Unkil is not politically reliable. India's military capability must never be held hostage to Unkil's freeze and thaw relationship cycles. I am hoping and keeping my fingers crossed, that both platforms can switch to an upgraded Kaveri at some point in the future. Also AMCA Mk1 is another decade away (at minimum) to arrive even in IOC configuration.

And Cybaru's post on the M88 Trex (for the F5 variant) and mating the Kaveri with a Tejas airframe is spot on! Read his post again and let those possibilities sink in. In hindsight, NaMo was speaking cryptically about India having her own turbofan engines in his last month's independence day speech The F5 will also be valuable, as it comes with the ability to operate UCAVs. Will be interesting to see if we can mate HAL's CATS with the Rafale F5. It will most certainly come with the Tejas Mk2 and even the Tejas Mk1A.

[Sumeet]

Good reply admiral.

Rafale is the best purchase that India could do. Even in another world (if circumstances were not like current geo political scenario)

• JSF would never have become reality in IAF (imagine -- LCA, AMCA and JSF all at mercy)
  EF Typhoon lost for reasons like too many quarrels amongst partner members
  Russia very little independent future in fighter jet development (they will be looking at Chinese fighters in a 10-15 years time)
  Gripen is LCA in Scandinavian colors

Rafale is the only choice. Together with Super Sukhoi and UCAV (for Stand in jammer, SEAD/DEAD, swarm operation mode) will be good for us in the near future (next 10 years).

Beyond that we should look at AMCA and its various variants and next gen UCAVs which should be made indigenously either in private public partnership or private model.

For us important things are:

Fighters:

Rafale F4+ & Rafale F5
Tejas Mk2
Super Sukhoi

Swarm of low cost low tech drones
Hi-tech UCAVs (for Stand in Jamming, SEAD/DEAD/DPSA)


Weapons:

--> mostly with indigenous weapons (Astra series, Rudram, SAAW, Nirbhay, Brahmos)
--> some foreign weapons (Meteor successor, Scalp successor, Spear EW, Spice, ASRAAM/Python 6)


Multipliers:

AWACS
Aerial Intelligence assets (COMINT, SIGINT, ELINT)
Dedicated Surveillance, Navigation & Recon Satellites
Refuellers
IACCS
Multi layered Air Defence Systems
Anti Stealth Radars

[Cain Marko]

....

Iaf has definitively lost the qualitative edge vs China now. But majboori hai Kya karey.

Careful there, sir ji.. some would term it r... rona.

Rnd ke siway aur Kya Raha hai sirji? They better find a way to get the Kaveri going, and double quick.

The rafale as Indias mainstay for the next 30+years does not inspire confidence. Purely in terms of platform, Id even consider the current al41 based su57 as better investment.

India needs a large number of 4.5gen fighters to make up numbers, these have to be cheap, and the rafale is not it.

Get Tejas numbers to 400 one way or another, add mix of 36 rafale + 36 su57 + 36 f35 as tip of spear and 275 mki as heavy Clydesdale.

I know this is an inventory boondoggle but it will keep things manageable geopolitically, add necessary redundancy at the spear tip and iaf had dealt with far worse inventory situation before.

[Sumeet]

CM ji,

I think AMCA produced locally will be a far better bet than this mix. All we need to do is do this in accelerated fashion.

For a fighter jet we primarily need:

1. Airframe & Aerodynamics (including RF/IR spectrum optimization)
2. Flight control system
3. Engine and Engine Control system
4. Radar
5. Mission Software (including Multi sensor data fusion software, AI/ML based solutions for health monitoring, diagnostics, combat strategies)
New Computers — FADEC, Digital Flight Control Computers, Mission Computer, Display Processor, Digital Signal Processors
6. Rest of avionics -- Glass cockpit, HMDS, IRST, EoT, EW Suite, CNI systems


We should be able to manage 1, 2, 5 ourselves.
For 3 we can collaborate with French
For 4 we can pretty much manage this ourselves as well

For 6th point we can strategically collaborate with Israel to jointly produce: (& also offer this fighter to Israel for induction where they will have a lot of control over it's avionics much more than what they can ever get from uncle)

Stealth compatible long wave IRST
Escort Jammer for SEAD/DEAD
Stand In Jammer
Litening 5 EOT pod in appropriate fashion for Stealth compatibility
New Glass Cockpit/MMI
Elbit Targo-X HMD


Fully integrated EW suite w/ RWR, LWR, MAW, Jammer

• Fully Digital RWR
  • Ultra Wide-band receiver
    Digital Interferometry
    High degree of angular precision & DF accuracy

• All Digital AESA Jammer
  • Latest generation multi channel DRFM based ECM techniques generator
    GaN AESA transmitters for wide band jamming

• Towed RF Decoy with GaN AESA transmitters (programmed especially to defeat Active Radar missile seekers of AAM & SAM)
  Dual color Imaging IR sensor based MAW
  • DIRCM compatible MAW

• New Communication, Navigation & Identification (CNI) systems
  • Software Defined Radios & Low Latency, High Capacity, Secure, Beyond LoS Data link & distributed information system
    GaN AESA based SATCOM

Integration of new missiles (mostly indigenous)
Brahmos M, Brahmos A, ASRAAM, Astra Mk2, Astra SFDR, Meteor NG, SPICE 1K/2K, Garuthma, SAAW, NGARM, Gaurav and Rudram

Besides this our focus should be very much on UAVs, UCAVs, force multipliers and NG net centric air defense systems. This (UAVs, UCAVs) is a new industry and will be making a significant squadron strength of our air force or future air force of any country.

[Cain Marko]

Sumeet bhaiyya, the amca will come good I'm sure. But it will take at least until 2045 to start seeing sqd service. In that interim period, Iafs going to need some high end door breakers and deterrents. That's why I think mrca/mrfa needs to be a mix of 2-3 fighter types. Elite sqds doing mixed sorties using stealth, long range aams, passive detection and targeting etc.

[pravula]

Lets temper this a bit...We didn't have a simple power amp for LCA and had to spin off a project...

[Sumeet]

CM Ji,

JSF is out of picture for India. Su-57 will require heavy investment from us to make it worthy -- think of all of above mentioned avionics and sensors we will have to put into it. I don't know how mature is engine tech for it and how to address issues IAF had earlier when it pulled out of this project.

Without proper support from either India or China this fighter has very little future. In a little over decade Russia will be looking at China for fighter jets.

Rafale and AMCA is the way to go with Super Sukhoi and LCA Mk2. We need collaboration to get AMCA on fast track. Israel already has experience updating F-35 Adir a 5th gen aircraft with their own custom avionics and EW systems. We should collaborate with them on AMCA instead of going for JSF. An induction (IOC) by 2035/36 is very much possible if Indo-French & Indo-Israeli JV happens.

[Cain Marko]

CM Ji,

JSF is out of picture for India. Su-57 will require heavy investment from us to make it worthy -- think of all of above mentioned avionics and sensors we will have to put into it. I don't know how mature is engine tech for it and how to address issues IAF had earlier when it pulled out of this project.

Without proper support from either India or China this fighter has very little future. In a little over decade Russia will be looking at China for fighter jets.

Rafale and AMCA is the way to go with Super Sukhoi and LCA Mk2. We need collaboration to get AMCA on fast track. Israel already has experience updating F-35 Adir a 5th gen aircraft with their own custom avionics and EW systems. We should collaborate with them on AMCA instead of going for JSF. An induction (IOC) by 2035/36 is very much possible if Indo-French & Indo-Israeli JV happens.

I see your point Sumeet Bhai, but I think a off the shelf purchase of a couple of 5gen sqds is inevitable.

You're right in that the amca could be done by 2035 with the right decisions and execution, but we all know how likely this is. Even under modis (pro security) 3 terms, the movement on the Tejas itself has been laborious. What to talk of amca. I don't have any faith in any of the stakeholders here.

India moves at a glacial pace.

In any case, the iaf will need an mki replacement in time and I think the su57 is probably the best candidate for a 1 to 1 replacement. If they can leverage commonalities been the two platforms based on the extensive experience that they have, I don't see why India can't get the felon.