Project 75I - It Begins

[Rakesh]

India looks at sealing two mega submarine deals after long wait
https://www.deccanherald.com/india/indi ... it-3705560
31 Aug 2025

[SRajesh]

^^
One way to maintain the skills and and the supply chain active is:
a. Early aaseesment of the Operational Capability of the vessel and fitting into the current exigencies
b. Additional needs and add on's to the current vessel
c. Early order of the followons so that line doesnt fall idle
But we dont seem to learn
And both the services and the Baboos have to the take responsibility for the cockups!!
Political bosses are political and many would hardly know the difference between the turret and the periscope!!

[Rakesh]

^^^ This is why TKMS won the P-75I contest. Hafta payment to Germany...

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1963168140503790050 ----> EAM Dr S Jaishankar says, "...We have important strategic relationships with a number of countries, and it's in the nature of global politics or global strategy today that each one of these relationships would be maintained and optimised. So to me, both Germany in itself and Germany as the biggest country of the European Union are obviously central to the calculations and to the relationships that we have in the world...For us, this is an enormously important relationship. This relationship is growing in substance and I can see at this time of uncertainties that actually it has a greater value. It's a very steady relationship. It is a relationship where largely what we promise to each other and policies that we have remain constant and predictable. So predictability today has a huge premium in global politics..."

[Rakesh]

Project 75(I) Gains Momentum as India Seeks Full Tech Transfer, TKMS Seals New Indian Partnerships
https://bharatshakti.in/project-75i-gai ... tnerships/
04 Sept 2025

“We are not just buying submarines. We are acquiring the capability to build them ourselves,” a senior Defence Ministry official said. “TKMS must ensure India can independently design and produce future submarines under Project 76.”

^^^ These MoD officials are high on drugs if they believe they can force TKMS to part with any valuable tech. They have already lost any negotiating leverage, by begging TKMS to rejoin the P-75I contest (after TKMS walked out due to out-of-this-world specs in the P-75I RFI).

[Manish_P]

....
^^^ These MoD officials are high on drugs if they believe they can force TKMS to part with any valuable tech. They have already lost any negotiating leverage, by begging TKMS to rejoin the P-75I contest (after TKMS walked out due to out-of-this-world specs in the P-75I RFI).

These geniuses are from the same tribe of bufoons who made grandiose statements like "we will never buy fighters from USA" and then went ahead and allowed their engines to be american

[Rakesh]

Choppy ride for India’s submarine ambition: Project P-75I chugs forward, Scorpenes a stinging tale
https://theprint.in/defence/choppy-ride ... e/2735801/
03 Sept 2025

[Rakesh]

Germany’s TKMS Seals New Indian Partnerships

India and Germany are strengthening defence ties through Project 75(I), a ₹70,000 crore submarine programme involving Mazagon Dock and TKMS. The German Type 214 submarine, featuring air-independent propulsion and advanced stealth, is a top contender. TKMS signed MoUs with Indian firms to localise torpedo and sonar technologies, boosting indigenous capability. If finalised, it will be India’s largest defence deal, pursued under the Strategic Partnership model to ensure deep technology transfer and enhance maritime deterrence in the Indo-Pacific.

[Rakesh]

No clarity on Project 75I, Navy worries on underwater capability continue
https://www.newindianexpress.com/amp/st ... y-continue
06 Sept 2025

[Rakesh]

Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders begins negotiations on Submarine Project-P75(I) with Indian Navy
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 811995.cms
10 Sept 2025

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/DefenceDecode/status/1966192057552343499 ---> MDL begins contract negotiations with Indian procurement authority for Project 75(I), partnering with #TKMS.

Six German-designed modern submarines will be built in India by MDL.
This marks a major step in indigenous submarine capability and international technology transfer.
Reinforces “Made in India” through local construction and knowledge absorption.
Deepens India–Germany defense cooperation.
Highlights India’s push to become a global submarine technology/manufacturing hub.
Strengthens regional naval presence and supports India’s modernization.

TKMS (ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems) views the Indian P-75I submarine deal as another success story in its global expansion. They aim to transfer submarine design know-how to India, so that MDL (Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited) can absorb the technology and eventually develop future submarines indigenously.

[Rakesh]

How TKMS Trumped Navantia To Clinch Submarine Deal

TKMS won India’s Project-75(I) submarine bid over Navantia by offering a proven Type 214-based design with an operational AIP system, meeting the Navy’s strict “sea-proven” requirement. Navantia’s untested BEST AIP was deemed non-compliant. TKMS' stealth-optimised hull, advanced sensors, lithium-ion battery option, and full technology transfer via Mazagon Dock aligned with Make in India goals. Six submarines will be built in Mumbai, deepening Indo-German defence ties. The deal comes amid TKMS' global growth, with recent orders from Germany and Singapore.

[Rakesh]

Negotiations Begin on P 75(I) Submarine Deal, Signing Still a Long Haul
https://bharatshakti.in/negotiations-be ... long-haul/
12 Sept 2025

[ritesh]

Any reason for not considering Kilos?

[uddu]

L&T should be given the tender for Midget sub quickly. If the design submission by both L&T and MDL for P76 is to happen by 2028, the order will happen after 2030 or so.

German shipbuilder TKMS seeks govt protection in ₹70,000 crore submarine project
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 048272.ece
14 Sept 2025

Extra caution stems from 1981 HDW scandal

German defence major Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems (TKMS) is seeking safeguards against future risks and liabilities in the ₹70,000 crore Project-751 submarine Indian Ministry of Defence program it is set to develop along with Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Ltd (MDL). The push for protection stems from the HDW submarine scandal of 1981, when allegations of kickbacks in a similar deal triggered a CBI probe and the scrapping of further orders. HDW, the German yard at the centre of that controversy, is now part of TKMS. Sources said TKMS is looking for a formal government-to-government (G2G) arrangement to shield it from legal or financial fallout during the decades-long lifecycle of Project-75I.

[Rakesh]

Any reason for not considering Kilos?

Older/Outdated design.

[Rakesh]

German shipbuilder TKMS seeks govt protection in ₹70,000 crore submarine project
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ec ... 048272.ece
14 Sept 2025

The Germans themselves are telling you that this program is going to be delayed. And to avoid paying penalties, they want the GOI to "protect" them. They are so confident that a deal will be signed, that they have requested the GOI to agree to this.

And when the protection is given (and we will....because we are like that onlee!) and the Germans renege on the terms of the contract and even the much vaunted ToT, then we will have no recourse other than to whine and complain. But please sign on the dotted and waste exorbitant sums of money.

[srin]

What does this sub have that the existing Scorpene (+ DRDO AIP) doesn’t?
Did TKMS agree for VLS ?

[Rakesh]

What does this sub have that the existing Scorpene (+ DRDO AIP) doesn’t?

New boat, New Complexities.

Did TKMS agree for VLS ?

Reports contradict each other. Can only determine when concrete information comes out.

[Rakesh]

TKMS enters contract negotiations with MDL for P75(I) program
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... i-program/
12 Sept 2025

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/NetramDefence/status/1966412139138298052 ---> THREAD: India’s ₹70,000 crore Project 75(l) will produce six AIP submarines. These will bring significant improvements in endurance and stealth across the Indo-Pacific. They will be a real boost for the Navy. Let’s dive in.

[Cain Marko]

The only reason for this shift from the scorpene line has to be that the Aussie leaks truly compromised these subs. I don't see any other viable reason for this madness. It stands to reason that the govt can't really talk about this in public.

Jmtp

[Rakesh]

The only reason for this shift from the scorpene line has to be that the Aussie leaks truly compromised these subs. I don't see any other viable reason for this madness. It stands to reason that the govt can't really talk about this in public.

Jmtp

The Aussie leak did not compromise these subs. If that was indeed the case, why would the Indian Navy order three more of the same?

This is brochuritis. Plain and simple.

[Cain Marko]

The only reason for this shift from the scorpene line has to be that the Aussie leaks truly compromised these subs. I don't see any other viable reason for this madness. It stands to reason that the govt can't really talk about this in public.

Jmtp

The Aussie leak did not compromise these subs. If that was indeed the case, why would the Indian Navy order three more of the same?

This is brochuritis. Plain and simple.

If that is the case, I am at a loss, truly. It's beyond appalling.

[Vayutuvan]

X-Post from the Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion thread...

Pak to get 8 new Hangor Class subs from China. We should be ashamed with what we are doing with our sub programme.

China-Built Hangor Submarines To Join Pakistan Navy Fleet By 2026: Report
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-b ... rt-9576288
04 Nov 2025

@Tanaji ji

How good are they? There is scant information. 4 were to have been delivered by 2023. The next four are being built in Karachi to be delivered in 2025-2030 timeframe (as per Wikipedia). That page is updated on Oct 4, 2025. It still says Commission in 2025-2030 for all eight.

[drnayar]

X-Post from the Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion thread...

Pak to get 8 new Hangor Class subs from China. We should be ashamed with what we are doing with our sub programme.

China-Built Hangor Submarines To Join Pakistan Navy Fleet By 2026: Report
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-b ... rt-9576288
04 Nov 2025

The less said about their "stealth" the better.

[Manish_P]

The Hangor might not be at the cutting edge of stealth but they still represent a tough challenge due to the inherent difficulties of submarine detection in the open seas at long distances.

Also need to take in account that the Chinese have mapped out the Indian Ocean well over the past years. This topic was covered in a recent podcast.

So while our Sub program may be going at a slow speed, we need to step up on our ASW game. And we need to leverage disruptive tech like the missile launched torpedos to negate the numerical disadvantage we might have.

[Rakesh]

X-Post from the Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion thread...

Pak to get 8 new Hangor Class subs from China. We should be ashamed with what we are doing with our sub programme.

China-Built Hangor Submarines To Join Pakistan Navy Fleet By 2026: Report
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/china-b ... rt-9576288
04 Nov 2025

In order to be ashamed, we must understand what shame is. We are shameless onlee and will import only the best.

Now that having being said, submarines are hunted via ASW platforms (i.e. P-8I, MH-60R and ASW corvettes, frigates, etc). Sub vs sub does occur, but not with the same intensity or frequency of the former. There are greater statistical odds of engaging subs via the other ASW platforms.

Interesting anecdote to the S20 Class (export variant of the Type 039A Class in the PLAN) boat that the Pakistan Navy is getting. The Royal Thai Navy (RTN) ordered three of these boats in 2015, with possibly another two more boats in the years ahead. The RTN wanted the MTU 12V 396 SE84 diesel engine from Germany. However due to a European Union arms embargo on China, Germany blocked the export of these engines for the S20 boats. The RTN reportedly did not have much faith in the Chinese alternative (the CHD620 engine) which MTU later certified. The RTN was ready to cancel the entire deal with China and it is only post this certification from MTU, that the RTN agreed to continue with the purchase. The Pak examples are coming with the same engine.

There is a high possibility that the RTN is accepting this, due to a lack of viable options. They don't have the budget to go in for the Scorpene Class...as their other South East Asian neighbours (i.e. Malaysia and Indonesia) have done. The Chinese engines are reportedly noisier than their MTU counterpart and that is to be expected. MTU is the world leader in diesel engines for SSKs and have fine tuned their engines (for acoustics and performance) to near perfection. The engines aboard the S20 Class will be detected on our ASW platforms without much difficulty.

But this does not hide the utter criminality of our decision makers in continuing with the P-75I program. We should have continued with the Scorpene program for another 6 boats (at minimum) and subsequently gone in for the Project 76 program. By the way, the P76 program will also feature diesel engines from MTU. So there goes 100% self reliance

Mark my words on this ---> At the pace the Project 75I program is progressing, all eight S20 boats will enter service with the Pak Navy before even the first P-75I boat is launched. So much for urgency. This penchant for nothing-but-the-best is our Achilles heel. The level of complexity aboard the HDW boat that the Indian Navy is getting will result in that delay. Not a single planned timeline will be met. And to add insult to injury, even the three follow on Scorpene Class (P-75AS) boats are supposedly going to be cancelled in favour of the P-75I program.

[Rakesh]

Mark my words on this ---> At the pace the Project 75I program is progressing, all eight S20 boats will enter service with the Pak Navy before even the first P-75I boat is launched. So much for urgency. This penchant for nothing-but-the-best is our Achilles heel. The level of complexity aboard the HDW boat that the Indian Navy is getting will result in that delay. Not a single planned timeline will be met. And to add insult to injury, even the three follow on Scorpene Class (P-75AS) boats are supposedly going to be cancelled in favour of the P-75I program.

And when it comes to numbers, it is not about who has the greater number of boats that win the day. However, the number of boats you have...has a direct correlation to the number of boats that can be in the water at any given point in time.

• If you have six Kalvari Class boats, perhaps 2 (or max 3) boats can be on mission/patrol.

• If you have eight Hangor Class boats, that number can be increased to 3 (or max 4) for mission/patrol.

Not possible to put all boats into the water at the same time, as they require regular maintenance, overhaul, training, reserve, etc. The only time you might see all boats in the water is for photo ops. But in peacetime or war, boats are in constant rotation (at sea or at home port). The greater number of boats in the water - at any singular point in time - gives much more flexibility & options to mission planners.

Some data points to reflect on;
Numbers below are via Google Chacha....

• Length of Pak's coastline ---> 1,046 kilometers
• Pak's exclusive economic zone ---> 290,000 square kilometers

• Length of India's coastline ---> 11,098.81 km
• India's exclusive economic zone ---> 2.37 million square kilometers

• Bay of Bengal - 2.172 million square kilometers
• Arabian Sea - 3.862 million square kilometers
• Indian Ocean - 70.56 million square kilometers

But lets continue with P-75I onlee and have the six Kalvari Class boats hold down the fort, till the first P-75I boat is commissioned. Remember, it is coming with VLS cell ( ) and German AIP ( ). Nothing but the best for our young men who have to put their lives on the line. Have our Navy admirals learnt any lesson from the INS Sindhurakshak episode? Do these senior officers even remember the men who died on that fateful day in August 2013?

[Tanaji]

The Chinese boats will be a pain as well. I don’t think they will run them continuously, rather their strategy will be to lie submerged without running hoping an Indian flotilla comes their way. They will be guided to where to lie in wait by Chinese ISR. Once submerged without engines, only coming up for batteries, they will be hard to detect. They won’t meet IN in its own backyard rather wait for us to come as we must. I will not be at all surprised if they get lucky: the PAF even with their old aircraft seems to have gotten firing solutions on our aircraft or decoys that surprised the IAF….

[SRajesh]

Rakesh
Even if its screwdrivergiri, changes in the blueprint causes huge delays.
This I can say with 200% confidence after seeing and talking to my father-in-law who retired after working 30+ yrs in Rotary Division of HAL.
Even a simple screw or a nut has to be drawn and copied three times. Gone are the days of Hand draughted blue prints. Even with computerisation takes enormous amount of time.
Even though now a lot of sub contracts and supply chains but still takes time for contract/blue prints/production and then supply. And add the clearance of bills and payments to this milieu!!

[SRajesh]

They should have three lines working : two state owned and a private to get things moving

[Cain Marko]

At this point I wonder if the Indian Navy is really even concerned about SSKs. Maybe they don't see too much value here since they are thinking of blue water ops and there is nothing locally to challenge it's capital assets.

The emphasis seems to be on maximizing sub hunting capabilities with p8i (more to come?), sea guardians, c295 variants, arnala class, Sant. And dorniers. Plus prosecuting long range sub ops using high end aip subs and SSNs.

[ashthor]

Even a desi katha without any technologia will kill...it will just need a chance.

[SSridhar]

This thread was started in Oct. 2014. It has successfully completed 11 years without us being much wiser. May be it is a better idea to change the name to 'Project 75I - It Never Begins'